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hello, this is the schrödinger's cat podcast, and i am its host, the chief editor of a popular science magazine, which is also called schrödinger's cat. and we are talking about science and how it affects our lives. today our guest is vladimir spiredonov, professor, doctor of psychological sciences, head of the ranhix laboratory of cognitive research. hello. hello. and egor plotnikov, artist. hello, don’t be alarmed, this is a special composition of two seemingly opposite people, a scientist and an artist. because today we will talk about cognitive distortions. vladimir, in general, why is it so important to study human mistakes, our irrationality? it turns out that in real life you and i behave the way we do, yes, we are not...

what we are talking about, this is my favorite cognitive error, well, i think scientists too, this is the so -called fundamental fallacy of causality attributions, i specially pronounce them in full so that you understand that psychologists are also scientists, they also have terms, for example, an employee brought a report at the wrong time, a report on some work, why lazy, unpunctual, i didn’t do something on time, everyone one of us doesn’t do something on time, it’s how we’ve developed

... we’re wonderful, but don’t you think that in general the desire to be good is such a powerful source of all kinds of cognitive errors, it’s one of the basic human needs, it can be described in different ways, it has to do with what we want to preserve authority and self-respect, to look good in your own eyes, well, in the eyes of others , of course, too, and this leads to a large number of behavioral consequences, again to a large number. but

distortions, we’re talking about this today, well, what can we do, this is human nature, i’ll say it carefully, here’s another one of my favorite examples of such a cognitive error or rational...

you for some little thing, for something, that won't cost you anything special, but it will allow you to take the next step, i just don't i am sure that what you and i are describing under the heading of cognitive distortion is entirely correct, but there is a lot of twisted things here, after all, cognitive distortions - indeed, if the word cognitive is translated into russian, cognitive, these are errors in the cognitive sphere, in the sphere of cognition, in the sphere of our memory, attention, thinking, perception, and so on, although there, in general, more is needed.

works, it’s time for our second guest to join in, egor, you had an exhibition called cognitive distortion, yes, what such a cognitive distortion in art, now one of your works has appeared on the screen, why is there a white line, and well, firstly, i would like to say that we really live in a time when we are overloaded with information, wildly overloaded, and during when we are immersed in gadget screens. we have a clip-like way of thinking, that’s when we suddenly move or, on the contrary, find ourselves in extreme isolation for quite a lot of people, and this of course is reflected in the works, here, for example, we see such a white stripe,

and in many of my other such landscapes, very natural, yes, in the classical manner, oil on canvas, and we also see such subtractions as... i call them, these are such white fragments of canvas, circles, squares, stripes and so on, which as if they take away part of the image, it disappears, this is an image of our memory, which precisely preserves parts of the whole, yes, it loses this panorama, it only retains some fragments, at the same time these disappeared parts, they provoke the viewer to complement, replenish, remember this ne... as it were to appropriate it for yourself, to remember from the baggage of some of your memories, to complete it, perhaps, yes, to try to imagine what is there, so to become such a co-author of the artist, at the same time, in general, this is such a call to the viewer, but to look more carefully and to

a work of art, to the space around us, how to return to this, to this panoramic view of our vision, look, we have a typical scene.

misunderstanding or, accordingly, some possible serious consequences, something like that, everything is not always clear there, then accordingly, the second system will intervene and , let’s say, record that... the situation is very strange, yes, there is an obvious hole in the image, that in the hole it is not clear, accordingly, is this the artist’s intention, or is it a lacuna in perception or something else, yes, that is, in this regard, here is the reasoning system, system 2, it works slowly, requires much more information, but it makes balanced and generally largely informed decisions, more reasoned than intuitive system, that’s the only thing i would sharply object to, the term clip thinking, this is absolutely an invention of journalists, there is nothing like it in reality, this is

an obvious fiction, i would add to the common myths that we live in a situation of information overload, in fact the peasant of the 19th century received the same huge amount of information , how the geese behaved, and he had a hundred geese there, how the cow milked, what kind of flower became where, but i still ask you to return this picture, look, here we have a situation, rural road, dirt , beaten by the tires of heavy vehicles, there is a person standing, i can’t even identify his raft and a man or a woman, well , judging by the boots, probably a villager, we have a task, for example, to decide to turn right or left, here fork, and for the first system we just need to see his boots and that he’s some local, ask me to go to the stop to the right or...

and this situation repeats itself, probably the second system comes into play, what’s happening, what ’s happening, something happened unexpected, yes accordingly, something that does not fit into ordinary scenarios, and accordingly, here you need to think a little, or at least analyze more sources of information, perhaps the situation is not so simple, perhaps there are some hints of danger or the fact that you are being pranked or something else that just requires that very... system 2, which, well, will think about what is happening, that is, the desire

to save on processing information - this is generally such a basic feature of our brain, i would consider the word brain , let's consider it, well, neurons, i mean our thinking, of course, yes, accordingly, our cognitive system is lazy, a standard metaphor, and it diligently avoids large amounts of work, where it can be handled relying on some - accordingly american colleagues made a very nice test for it, they called it cognitive reflection, the idea is very simple, they give you problems where you can make a very... quick decision, find a quick answer, usually the wrong one, or manage catching yourself by the tail means thinking and

answering correctly, but for a much longer time, well, let’s say, a stick and a puck respectively cost 1 ruble 10 kopecks. accordingly , a stick is a whole ruble more expensive than a puck, how much do a stick and a puck cost? well, a ruble and 10, they answer you, yes, this is the wrong answer, this is just how the system worked. how often does this let us down? in your opinion, is it still some kind of exotic thing, is it for large economic

transactions or for impulse purchases, or is it still everywhere? i have the impression that not just everywhere, absolutely, absolutely everywhere, somehow i don’t even know how to say this, that is, this is how life works. big boxing, again on the first, one of the most striking principled confrontations in the history of boxing. a match between the best boxing schools in the world, five furious fights, a tough exam for everyone, a betting league. night of champions, russia, usa. live stream. next saturday on the first. this is the schrödinger's cat podcast, and today we're talking about cognitive distortions. i'd like to go back to one of the main ones, well at least least, in my opinion, the source of cognitive

errors. this is the desire to appear good in your own eyes in the eyes of observers, consistent, whole. how much does a person who sees your paintings want to be good? interest ask. let me give you an example. look, here is a man who grew up in an intelligent, somewhat educated family. and he believes that it’s good to be good, you have to appreciate contemporary art. and he sees a picture that he might not like in any other situation. but he wants to maintain the consistency of his beliefs. there are people who really have a flair for art, as if for an understanding of, say, painting, or there are people who feel a sharp somehow plastic solution, but there are people who ask questions, are embarrassed to ask them

to the artist, and are either embarrassed or afraid of seeming ignorant. yes, in art he makes some kind of judgments, as if conditional , yes, which seem to show him better, as a person seems to see, but in fact, the further, the more i see spectators who are not afraid to ask questions, who are not afraid sincerely do not understand something, but when asking questions, do not just be perplexed and say what kind of nonsense this is, but try to understand what is in front of them and... and after listening to the artist’s opinion, express your opinion, which is really in fact , it has a right to exist, just like the artist’s opinion about his work. vladimir, from the point of view of science, how widespread or has it been tested or proven that a person can like something and honestly like it, because if suddenly he doesn’t

like it, it will be cognitive dissonance with his other beliefs and knowledge. well, this is quite a common situation. a situation when you submit, well, either to the dictate of the opinions of others, this is quite a standard situation, or you submit to the dictate of your own ideas about what you should like, yes, in fact, i want to be advanced, that’s why i appreciate modern art, although i don’t really i understand it, it gives me mixed feelings, how sincere are these feelings, can a person sincerely love what really for some objective, formal reasons to him.

singer, i like the way he sings, i like the way he moves on stage, i like the way he gives interviews, suddenly this singer makes some statement that is absolutely at odds with the moral values ​​of this listener-spectator. how to get out of this cognitive dissonance? well, actually, you have many paths, and the person who

invented and discovered the phenomenon, the surname festinger, actually described these paths, yes, you can. consider that the singer is really a brute, he has been wrapping you up all his life, and accordingly, to make sure that he is so bad, and that means they will reject him as a class, this is a difficult path right away, because if he deceived me, then i am gullible, and being gullible is not very good, not very good, accordingly you can disavow, that is, to challenge his judgment, which seems controversial, dubious or simply unacceptable to you, but his... from the context, in this case the brute will be the journalist who conducted the interview or someone else, well, here ’s the second option, yes, the third option is you you can try on different contradictory ones, it would seem that judgments with the fact that... in order to sit on two chairs, well, i think that all sorts of other options are possible, to shift one’s moral judgments, so yesterday i came across a very respected specialist in

social sciences, some wild statements about, let’s not name which one, but absolutely pseudoscientific medical technology, i had cognitive dissonance, i respect this learned sociologist, i have a bad attitude towards this pseudoscientific paradigm, how can i convince him? well, as a person, i’m still pumped up, i still chose a reasonable path, how do i it seems that an intelligent person in some areas fully accepts the stupidity of others, this option is quite possible, but there is another option, why don’t i shift my moral values ​​and views, if possible , a person, well, on the other hand, you can look at his age and decide, well , my god, he’s gone crazy, he was good, smart, advanced, and so on for a long, long, long time, but age did its job and his head is no longer the same, well, that’s also relative.

and fun, well, considering that moral assessments lie in such a fuzzy area where, perhaps cognitive distortions work more powerfully. yes, yes, yes, yes, that's right. another example, also on the verge of cognitive distortions of some other things, is an experiment with helping a person who is either unwell or not at all. the conditions were, if i’m not mistaken, correct me, for seminarians of some religious american college or something like that. they had to preach a teaching sermon, and they were told to the first group, go to the church, where the pastor or whoever will hear you, hurry up, because

you’re already late, and he really doesn’t like it when he’s late, the second group was told: go to the same church, well, the pastor will come later, you’ll wait for him a little , and on the way he sat in an incomprehensible position, just like that, here, here, like this.

responsibility for help , well, i observed the diffusion of responsibility from my non-experimental experience when i was young and hitchhiked, it was very clearly

noticeable, the fewer cars on the road, the higher the likelihood that they will stop and give you a ride, yeah, but tell me, but for perception paintings or for some other work of art , the number of people around is important; here is a person looking at the picture alone, or he is standing in a large crowd on a tour. yes, i think it’s important, in general there is a technique that tour guides and some specialists offer, where you force yourself to linger at the painting for at least 10 minutes, in a state of excursion or some kind of movement of a group of people, and all the time one’s attention is on one is attracted, the other is attracted to another part, even if they talk about work, half means looking around, someone is looking at phone, and accordingly the person also reacts to all these two.

it’s a defeat to stay in silence for a long time, to concentrate, but sometimes some community of people who simultaneously look at the work, it, it can help look, here it seems to me that the quality of the audience plays a certain role, and sometimes even watching the looker, then it’s as if when we look at someone who is looking, they can concentrate us and give us attention to... to the work, that is, since a person studies something so carefully, there is looking at it, let me take a look, maybe there’s really something important there, the number of cognitive errors, many even have beautiful names, you can list them, well, almost endlessly, i don’t know, in some reference book, i saw 250 , i think it could be 500 or a thousand, but how does knowing that we make mistakes and often make irrational decisions help us not make irrational

bad decisions? in a variety of ways, that you easily underestimate some hidden or semi-hidden aspects of the situation, that you make mistakes for the sake of your self-esteem and etc., etc., etc., that you have stereotypes, that you have some established frames for perceiving the situation, yes, yes, that is, perhaps you need to launch system 2 more often, perhaps it will be a little calmer in the future. is it possible to somehow more purposefully learn to avoid

critical ones? situations of such cognitive errors, you know, this is where the main trouble is that errors of this kind are the flip side of well-functioning thinking, that is , it is not that thinking is deliberately mistaken, yes precisely because it makes us very adaptive to the complex life we ​​live, it allows itself this kind of stupid delusion, precisely this payment for adaptability, for the ability to cope with... information with complex situations of communication and so on and so forth. many years ago, let me give you an example , psychologists asked ordinary people to keep diaries of a very specific nature: how many times during the day do you make mistakes, well, here are the simplest ones, well, i took a tube of shaving paste instead of toothpaste, tried, salt something accordingly, grab

the sugar, and so on and so forth. reasonable, adapted people, not a kindergarten, as we sometimes say, what is the creative process, the creative process is a path of mistakes and failures, that is, this is the basic part of the process, well, besides, what to know about cognitive errors, is there any method, training, course that allows you to do them less often, people claim that you can increase the degree of rationality

in decision-making, that is...

to understand how a work of art, any painting, cinema, works, literary, yes, then this, of course, is a step in the right direction; in order for thinking to develop, it must cling. and work with complex objects, there are no other options, in one of the discussions in which i participated many years ago, a very reasonable director of one of the moscow schools said that it is necessary to teach not mathematics, but mathematics, well, actually this is the idea, yes i fully agree, well, it’s important to teach to see the same thing in different ways, not to be confined to traditional frameworks, i also work at school, among other things, we often look quite innocent children's cartoons. and if we give free rein to the discussion, even the lower grades see in them something completely different from what we are used to seeing, the world in carlosin, they saw the terrible tragedy of loneliness, the fears of a child, and carlosen in their

version is the product of the child’s fears of adulthood, of a cold father , well , people were given a little freedom; they saw the same object from a different point of view, they can only applaud, but in general it’s useful to look at the same thing. from different points of view, this is actually the recipe, well, as soon as you start trying to understand it, it turns out to be complex, multifaceted, multilateral, contradictory, my god, and the more points of view you find, the more you discover, in fact, and this is really such a boundless immersion, there are questions that there is no answer, but there are others that will be answered accurately and directly. answers: you can ask your question now by calling 8 800 20040-40 via sms to number 04040 or through

the websites moskwadefisputinu.ru and moskvadefisputinu.rf. all details on websites. results of the year with vladimir putin. december 14. at 12:00 moscow time. schrödinger's cat podcast is with you and today we are talking about cognitive distortions. you can watch all episodes of our podcast on the website 1tv.ru. tell me, do you yourself have cognitive errors? and, for example, well , accordingly, with the number of everyday mistakes, everything is endless, as in the following.

thank you, vladimir, i would have said the same thing

, just in different words. simplicity, as we know, is worse than theft. therefore, the more complex you are, the more different points of view you will have. you can accumulate the different approaches to some complex phenomenon you can use, the better, generally speaking, the more interesting your life is. it was a podcast of schrödinger's cat, i am its host grigory tarasevich, editor-in-chief of a popular science magazine, also schödinger's cat. and our wonderful guests today are the artist egor plotnikov, psychologist, professor, head of the ranhix cognitive research laboratory, vladimir spiredonov. hello, my name is alexey varlamov, i. writer and rector of the literary institute.

today we will have a podcast dedicated to alexey nikolaevich tolstoy. and alexey tolstoy is one of the most amazing, exciting, paradoxical figures in the history of russian literature. there is an anecdote about him that somewhere in the late twenties, early thirties, his house in tsarskoye selo, in the children's village, it was called, a footman comes and says: your excellency , it's time to... which immediately after the revolution was the most cruel the dizzying fate of this man, a critic of the bolsheviks, who, according to bunin, offered a rusty bayonet gouge out their eyes, and a few years later he made such a dizzying feast and became one of the most orthodox council...

and he really is a fat count, and he is really fat, could a man with such a surname, with such a title be capable of such treachery. i must say that when the young guard publishing house suggested that i write a biography of alexei tolstoy, i reacted very negatively to this idea, i was extremely unsympathetic to this character. but here i decided for myself that it was my job to fulfill what was offered to me, then i felt like a professional writer for the first time: here is a hero, write whatever you want about him, i was sure that it would be such a satirical pamphlet, that it would be such a session of exposure, i even had the same sound all the time lines by boris chichebabin , a wonderful poet who wrote like this, i feel sad, i feel sorry... for those who haven’t

read it, i highly recommend reading the memoir of ivan alekseevich bunin, which is called the third tolstoy, in which my hero is also shown, well , very impartial, very ironic, it starts actually bunin with the same topic, whether he was a fat count, but he never told. about his father, for bunin it was very strange, how can a count, how can a russian aristocrat not be proud of his pedigree, not talk about his ancestors, because well, this is such an obligatory part. biography and history of every russian nobleman. in fact, the story of the origin of alexei tolstoy, the appearance of his light, it is worthy of a separate novel. this means that his father, whose name was nikolai alexandrovich tolstoy, was really count, i must say that everyone is fat, all

the countess are all relatives. he was a military man, but very reckless, with such hooligan behavior that for all his tricks in... he was kicked out of the guard, forbidden to live in st. petersburg, and he went to his homeland, that is, to the volga, to his hometown of samara, and there in in samara, this violent landowner met a girl whose last name was turgeneva, she was not in any kindred relationship with ivan sergeevich turgenev, but nevertheless, tolstoy and turgenev, they connected, it was an explosive mixture, she there was one, not even a turgenev girl, but a super russian idealist who got married. this hooligan and brawler, because she wanted to correct him, such a marriage, a noble, generous act, such a sacrifice on her part, none of this worked out, because the count continued to behave in the same scandalous way, but still less they lived together, they had

children, and then the countess’s literary talent awoke, she began to write poetry, she began to write prose, her husband treated this arrogantly, mockingly, she did not meet. such an understanding in the family, then she has a dear friend, whose name is alexey apolonovich bastrom, he was from the russified swedes, and he was not even a nobleman, he was such a landowner, a farmer, in today's language, he had a small farm in the volga region , but periodically he came to samara, and somewhere at some literary meeting, literary seminary, which were there then, he met this young... woman writing, they first had an idea spiritual romance, they both loved literature and could talk for hours about poetry and prose, then this romance turned into such a more serious relationship at some point alexandra leontyevna, she was such an impetuous, brave, desperate girl, she simply left her husband, left her children went to alexei

apalonovich, it must be said that in this situation, count nikolai alexandrovich tolstoy , her husband, the father of her children, behaved... unexpectedly nobly, he took all the blame for what happened on himself, that it was he who was such a stormy person, only she's suffering delivered, began to beg her to return, the children were crying, he was sad without her, and he promised her two things, the first that he promised her that he would publish her novel the restless heart for his money, the second that she would return home only as her mother children, but not like... her husband, she agreed with this and returned, then it turned out that the count fulfilled the first part of his promise, the novel was published and reviled by the criticism department of the journal otechestvennye zapiski, and as for the second part, her the count couldn't do it, he was very loved his wife, and what happened next, if

you remember, the novel saga of forsyths in goldsoors, there is a similar situation, there is such a not very nice character named soames, he has a young beautiful wife, whose name is irene, irene too arises, which means roman, a lover, then, at some point, soames, as it is said, uguld soorse, entered the bedroom of his wife and restored ownership of her. something similar happened in samara in 1882, and so the future soviet classic was conceived, that is , the future writer was born, if you call things by their names. as a result of marital rape, after which the countess left home, left home and discovered that she was pregnant, she wrote to bastrom that he would accept me to you.