through her, and she likes it, she is drawn to him, precisely as a person who has some kind of wider inner world, you know, there are so many indications that she doesn’t care about the inner world at all, because everything is there time says something like that, well, in some conversations throughout the book, yes, but she doesn’t understand at all whether she loves or doesn’t love, she’s talking about me now, it even seems like you know it, this is such an obsession . i just every time i thought about the blown winds, i thought, well there, in general, she’s just beating, she’s beating against this ashley, but everything should have just faded away, that’s why she keeps climbing on him, by the way, it’s interesting that why she continued, that the man had told her more than once that this story, which we see in life, it seems to me that she has honor , she has a great egocentricity, and she can get it, you know, get it in principle, you know , after...

take it, she continues, maybe this is also well , that is, not i took this height, i can’t , part of it is this painful nature you know, by the way, look at scarlet spiritually, she loves containers.

whether? listen, this is the dichotomy of these two women, melanie and scarlett, this is how you describe them, is this, this is some kind of basic conflict between two female characters? you know, it seems to me that mitchell’s book , why did it turn out so suddenly great, and , by the way, a very cool definition, suddenly great, yes, well, listen, in theory, because it seems to be very similar to the genre of women’s novels, well, you know exactly this one, a little closer to... boulevard, but she's so fi

gerald, she describes society, yes , the behavior at a turning point of all these people, not only scarly, scarly, by and large, as if part of, of course, she magnetizes, she pulls towards herself, but without very characteristic, precisely for that time, for this situation of the heroes, it wouldn’t have worked out that way, here is ashley, yes, a person who is absolutely crushed. circumstances and admits it, someone is floundering, someone has become a swindler, what else, i don’t even mean a butler, but let’s say some managers, managers, you know, not a serf, this is very important like a top manager and a top manager in such a big place, a top manager, so he became some kind of crook there, something like that, it seems to me that it doesn’t even matter what kind of interaction they have, she’s like, yes, yes, that’s it type, you know, by the way, more so,

because history shows that women somehow show greater elasticity of the psyche in crisis situations, yes, maybe a man is able to really give his life there, i mean some kind of more elasticity, because ashley tried her life there and that, but he’s just not in crisis, so precisely on the ruins of life, on the ruins of life in general.

no, but she has such moments, for example, when the whole society refused to accept captain butler in atlanta even before the south lost the war, she accepted him and told everyone directly that i will accept captain butler, because yes, she decided say this to some matron's face. she’s well-read, she’s look scarlett, she kind of doesn’t give a damn about this society, especially when her ret taught her not to give a damn about this society, gradually she’s always been like her, listen, she was

she’s such a fidgety girl and she didn’t care if she offended her friends or scolded her mother, well, everything was simple for her. developed, that is, when it’s just some secular conventions , it’s one story, when she needs money, she trades with the yankees, it’s already different, when she marries ret, everything is completely different, in a sense , melanie she also goes against society , not with such a challenge, not so apotently and not so, she, as if scarlet really doesn’t give a damn about them, she doesn’t give a damn about them, but she still , you see, they are like they, you think, what are they from a mirror of each other, well, somehow, of course, not exactly mirrors, but they are from the same cloth, relatively speaking.

she hates soap as a rival all her life, she still helps her out, that is, there are these moments that she helps her give birth, well, that is, in general, this is such a kind of loyalty in a good way, you can hardly see she is faithful earth, she is generally faithful to her family, and she is faithful to melanie, and it seems to me that this is just from what ashley asked, she has this, you know, like, who if not me, she went there for this what something like a carrot in general i fed my family, but didn’t. uh -huh, to die of hunger, but there is a moment where mitchell describes that scarlett, managing this estate, is forced, she suddenly realizes that she is no worse than a man, she says to herself: i’m no worse than a man, i can

manage the estate, lead there is accounting, to distribute responsibilities among household members there, yes, she still has her society, her... south, well, this is high society, yes, she inspired that a woman is weak, stupid, she is stupider than a man, this is frankly true they say, suddenly here she is realizes that she, she can, she is no worse, and this, in general, maybe also somehow turns something in her mind, do you think, this is a feminist book in its essence, well listen, and we are living now such... a time when the word feminism has already become a little bit of some kind of moth-eaten slogan, but are you avoiding it? well, no, i’m not avoiding him, but yes, of course, she’s natural , especially for that time, i think that it was mitchell who laid this out, yes, but you know, there’s nothing ostentatious here,

because this is all well, the realities of that life are very conventionally invented, you know, when the names are changed, yes, look, by the way, about being a lady, but there is a lot of indications there:

these are such situations, well, i mean, what if i understand , that something doesn’t work out, goodbye, well, that means this is not my person, it can manifest itself, you know, in some even everyday little things, in looks, i don’t know, at those blown by the wind, yeah, but because if you have reciprocity, and you were the first to say it, and the person does the same to himself located, just didn’t have time, then everything will be fine with you, listen, well - in such

a patriarchal-abusive way of life, where a woman must be quiet, submissive, obey, it is not clear what to get in return for this, because already in modern in society, you really don’t understand that there used to be some kind of public unspoken agreement, what do you have for this , now there is none, you can get anything for it , you can get gratitude for it, i don’t know about the money. flirting with a man, then you must necessarily seem stupider than you are, which the biggest disaster, everything

goes down the drain in this seduction, in this hunt, if suddenly a man realizes that you are smart, it seems to me that this is very offensive, but this is - well , most likely the truth, well, most likely the truth in the sense that if it suddenly seemed to me that i was communicating with a man, and what was needed in front of him. to pretend that i’m dumber, yes, no matter what it means, then i would immediately understand that this man is stupid, and i won’t get along with him, because i’ll just die of boredom with him, i know when in 15 minutes, before this, he’s wild, no, well, this is this, if i experienced intense romantic feelings for someone, something didn’t work out, i was disappointed in the seagull, he was disappointed in me, we just didn’t get along, but this is my minimal crush , yes, but here it’s just, well, it’s still at the level of reconsidering, but if you take a closer look, well, that’s it, but i

understand that he’s stupid, i don’t want to be a stupid person, only if he’s uncontrollably cheerful , cool and talented, but then he most likely won’t behave like that either, because that he will want to be stronger, he wants to be smarter, why explain to me instinctively, a man wants a woman to be weaker, but no, there is no such instinct, in general it’s all a design, a design that served certain needs, that is, you do you think? this is described in the blown away artificial structure , well, that’s how it is now we’re talking, we go back to the blown away wind, there is a design such that a family is a working man, working in such a way as to provide not only himself and somehow his wife, and also a family, well, that is , children being born, no matter how many people there are, some kind of owner, servants, yes, at the very least, but one way or another he needs to bring all this out on himself. the wife, accordingly, does not work , she is completely immersed in the household

, well, this is also work, listen, managing the household, she does not work at the job that brings the family money, in this sense she does not work, yeah, yes, i understand, that means people live only this way, yes, this is a social contract, let's be honest, that only household chores, some enjoy it, but some significant number of people are bored, uh-huh, in order to somehow justify all this, various add-ons begin, yes, from the very beginning a woman is trying not to put a lot of education into her, there is even the english aristocracy , how brilliant he spoke, wrote, showed and... a bunch of other authors, both fiction and documentary, sometimes were on the general principle that the aristocracy was literally there until the 20th century, it could have been simply monstrously uneducated, well, actually scarlett didn’t like to read books anymore, she constantly asks what are you talking about? education is not generally in

families, we still say now that blown by the wind is described by rich people,

women, and every person is designed in such a way that he needs fulfillment , and that means then all these sayings and things are invented about how a woman should behave, how she should be stupider, smarter, what she should know, how she should breathe, a corset this way and that, there should be something there, you know, it’s all just such a system, it’s kind of outdated, i understand that often these myths and legends are passed down by inheritance, where mothers teach their daughters for good or evil reasons. but still they are dissolving, well, scarlett, she did her job as a destroyer of these hacks, that is, she, let’s say, trodden the road to women’s rights, as it seems to you, well , to rights, probably not, to the fact that she had everything she wanted , achieved, yes, she became a businesswoman, this is sensational, well, yes,

of course, she is, yes, but what can you say about sexy? well, it says it right there, that she got married twice, gave birth to several children, that is, in the film they removed the script of these children, leaving only the last boni, who died, in the book she has a child from each marriage, in general it turns out that she gets married and has children, yes, yes, yes, she has she had a son, well, in general, she... having married several times to different men and having given birth, she did not reveal her sexuality at all, in general, maybe this is one of the reasons why she was in love with this ashley, that is she had this romantic childhood crush, similar to waiting for a prince, yes and this completely undisclosed sexuality that red was trying to somehow awaken there, and in general, as it seems to you,

this is plausible, this could be such a story with a woman today. could have been anyone, look, the first husband was there , they were together for 3 days and she didn’t really like him either, she didn’t like the second husband at all, she left for the money, but when she realized something, she made a mess with rhett, she, too , was not there such that she did not directly crawl out of his bedroom, although in general there was quite a lot of attention paid to the description, what came over her, yes, that is, she felt that this was not at all what... she was thinking about this whole war, before that she thought that this was some kind of duty of a woman that she was forced to endure in marriage, well, yes, yes , well, before that everything is clear, well, it’s as if she really doesn’t have any positive experience, plus this experience is not glorified by ladies in general, they don’t talk about it, well, a woman shouldn’t want this, but she should just endure it and well, in general the topic of sex somehow

comes from there, maybe it’s also an influence the fact that michelle is an american, and especially at... in the beginning, well, okay, not in the early 1920s, it was still not a topic that you can easily talk about, but all the himinguis and millers appeared later after war, then somehow under a dark blanket , under a tablecloth, yes, but she, you see, openly talks about a woman’s sexual life, about the fact that she has not revealed herself as a woman, it turns out, yes, well, look, somehow scarlett , it seems to me, maybe... michel , somehow they’re not really talking about sex, well, i’m talking about miche i understand that i can’t know, well, yes, well, you know, it seems to me that when you read a book, you already know everything about a person, after all, you penetrate the soul. who knows, the writers are still cunning, we can’t be sure here, but it’s not really about sex in this book, well, that is , scarlett has some kind of, even after her relationship with

ret, she doesn’t have any strong interest in sex in this topic, well, this is her, well, let’s say, inexplicable romantic love for ashley, she generally says that she has not revealed herself as woman, because this is all an unrealistic story in which she believes. that is, it seems to you that if a woman is unrequitedly in love like this, especially throughout her life with a man who rejects her, there is some kind of closedness behind this, well , it’s like this, look at it, there’s such a mix, yes , scarlett, obviously, who is not about reflection, it’s her, yes, two, that’s where, between her first upset about ashley , the other gave in, right? so many of these events happened there that, strictly speaking, maybe she would, if she had been banging against him for some time in a row, then maybe

something had gone downhill for her, but here she was constantly distracted, well, such mundane life matters, very important matters, almost tragic, in general, everything and survival just survival , maybe you know, it’s like... he clung to books, he clung to memories, and about his former life, and she seemed to have some kind of connection with her former life, she clung to ashley, it was hers connection, he was her gate, you know, to some landmarks, some these sweet dreams, in which she was still, of course, like a spoiled girl from a rich family, of course she was in them, what worries he had, he had just won off his next groom from his girlfriend and ashley had an affair... to mix it up, absolutely true , that's it, dress, choose a dress, yes, choose the right dress for an event, uh-huh, everything

develops so non-linearly for them, the dress was made because of the hanging in difficult times in order to get 300 dollars in taxes out of the retabutler, so i went uh a couple of years ago learning to sew, but i’m still serious, yes i already know how, but not yet well, as i want, i say this to all my friends: girls don’t throw away curtains, if anything happens , well, if anything happens, i’ll sew outfits for you, this is the right skill, listen to how clever you are, you know, katya, very often, uh, people are kind of... then they ask a question, like, what is there to read in order to, uh, well, i don’t know, to become a confident woman who loves herself, and, by the way, this is a good book, blown away by the wind, to become confident and love herself a woman.

in general, the ticketing is simply exciting , practically, but what kind of literature should i read? well, this whole korina, well, listen , it’s still the woman’s will, well , how it ended at tolstoy’s desk, but still, there the woman in general shows an iron will in the pursuit of happiness one way or another, and the same czeslavia fair, strong characters, emilia is also strong in a sense, blown away by the wind, and just optics, how...

the situation is actually destruction and change and how a woman behaves and how a woman sees this crisis and how she survives in it, that is mitchell herself said that gone with the wind is a novel about survival, and this is well in general, a relevant topic, here by the way, just now i thought that almost all these books are there - yarmakcheslavia, there is also the war with napoleon everywhere, and banai peace, there are these... men everywhere, and it seems to me that anna karenina too , there is this moralistic position that this is a bad girl, she behaved badly and now she must die, everything

is bad for her. ended, it seems to me that mitchell still has such optimism, that is, you are reading this book and despite the fact that the terrible pictures of this destroyed the world, these terrible crowds, wounded soldiers, the psychology of people whose world has collapsed, against this background there is such optimism and love of life, this is how it happened historically, well , i mean, so you start reading, how old are you, yes, you start read. usually, well, there, when i’ve gone through the carlson stage, yes, well, children’s, modern, not modern, yes, well, basically a person begins to get into reading, if he went there at all, with the classics, almost all the classics are written by men, me, for example , i read jane austen, you know, 27 years ago or something 30, i somehow, i didn’t even know that it existed, yes, and it didn’t change anything in my life, taking into account the fact that at that time, because

most of the writers were men, yes. and these were men, of course, you know , uh, of a completely different generation, yes, they were - wild, i don’t know, tekers, anyone, tolstoy, liskov, these were men of brilliant education, then brilliant education very much meant philosophy, then there are people who are extremely reflective, and if it’s something cool, if it’s something smart, a man wrote, a woman, a century ago, two , well, that is, it seems to me, they taught me... the breadth of views, the freedoms of a man, so the question here is not between men and women , of course, it seems to me, well, michel too, yes, well, what if she were a tekera, what kind, change the names, do you think michel proved something with this novel by the fact that it became popular, that it can still be read, that there are conflicts there that are still understandable to us,

she’s generally... a winner, well, it seems to me, yes, she, you know, look, she’s still somewhere under the layers of time, yes, under the layers of fashion or something like that, people have the same character, well, the same passions, passions, vices, that is, in this novel there is truth, there is, there is character, which is the most important, it has very cool multi-faceted characters, essentially it’s a pop novel, but it’s great, in a way it’s pop. no , the most popular book in the world, well, among the most popular books, it’s complex, and here is a romance novel, why is it a romance novel, because it shows women’s optics, doesn’t it, i don’t understand, here we are, i just told you, i i don’t understand what women’s optics are about, tekirey has the same women’s optics, that’s how much snot the balcony guy let out, how much?

he let the bezukhov snot up, the fat one has more men, his heroes, i mean, yes, not all the characters in general, they are all ashley, in general, he has some, well, except for the described generals, real ones, yes, there is kutuzov, yes , he doesn’t have any male characters who have achieved anything, well, at least internal growth, no one among his heroes has grown internally. well, do you agree that gone with the wind is great? novel? yes, of course, i agree. thank you for the interesting conversation, and thank you, so finally seeing you, about books in general, i don’t want to leave here, let’s do something else, books are interesting to talk about, no one understands this, well, that is, i want to show it directly in our the program is a must- read, that the book is very interesting, and it shows life from completely different

sides. and it’s very modern, this podcast is a must read, i’m glaina batnikova, today we discussed the novel gone with the wind, margaret mitchell, and a most beautiful novel about the war between the north and south in america with arina hollina, a blogger. hello, dear tv viewers, you are watching the triggers podcast, we are with you, its host, psychologist, tatyana krasnovskaya , psychologist, psychotherapist, sergey nasebyan, our guest today is victoria, hello, victoria, hello, hello, tell us what doesn’t work in your life, what you came to us with, but i have a fear of men, i’m afraid of relationships, i’m afraid of close

contact. i'm incredibly afraid of men, it's okay that i here, no, okay, i can leave, no, don’t, this fear was on such a large scale until i was seventeen years old, and... i was afraid to such an extent that i could walk down the street , a man was walking towards me, i could turn around, to go in the other direction, at the age of 17 - more so , fate, i began to work in a shoe store, and it focused more on men, and how specially, how specially, so i accordingly found contact with men like this at work, and became a little easier, and then i seemed to live all my life with the conviction that men are not with me...

really, but with the fact that they can love me and men can like me as a woman, everything is very difficult with this, and i still can’t get through this barrier, how much? you are now 25 years old, but could you tell us about your family? my dad left the family, i was 5 years old, yeah, and he left for another woman, uh, soon my brother was born, at first i don’t really remember how we met, i remember that we met, but very rarely, it was with his family, meetings, that is, they were always with his family, with his younger brother, with his wife, that is, you didn’t spend one-on-one time with dad, didn’t meet, didn’t spend time, i had difficult contact with his wife, i keep saying that this is so classic. cinderella and machha, and she made you sort out buckwheat and rice , well, practically, that is , there was always something wrong with me, i breathe wrong, i talk wrong, i eat wrong, i need to constantly lose weight, i constantly this was said at the holiday tables, where all

the relatives gathered, they told me where else you put it, you need to lose weight there and so on, and 8 years my mom had to go for 2 weeks, she left me with my dad and his family, my dad’s wife didn’t like the fact that i had long , untidy hair. my dad called me and picked me up there for a day, spent time with me, well, it was always not in private, then later i wrote a message to my dad there at the age of 12 , saying that if you don’t want to communicate with me, you don’t love me, tell me like that, like, well, i have this

uncertainty, because my mother - as soon as my dad left, she told me until i was 16, while i i didn’t tell her myself, she kept telling me one thing: that dad loves you very much, and your dad is wonderful, well, that’s just how dad created such an image. we had a fight for 18 years and we stopped communicating, we still communicate so purely to congratulate each other in childhood, dad was involved in your life in some way , for example, if you need there, i don’t know , clothes, did you ask dad to buy them or what? it was, and i know that he paid for my mother’s items then little by little, but i started asking for which ones? pocket money yes he has it as if then i asked for some gifts there for the new year, he had money, yes, he really helped me, plus due to the fact that he had a shoe and jeans store, i sort of took jeans from him , well, he samples worked

, it turns out they had a fight because of work, apparently , for 3-4 months there, he was supposed to give me my salary, he didn’t give it to me, like , i have everything, well, you understand, now there is no money, but at some point i just can clearly see it tell my dad that i don’t go on vacation twice a year, i just knew that he i went on vacation, bought a dog, a cat , well, that is, as if there was money for this, i had no money to pay my salary, and i said this phrase, to which my dad left, and 5 minutes later he wrote to me a message that i had an opinion about you i laid down my own, that was the last straw in my patience, when i said, that’s it, i endured all these humiliations for so many years, your whole wife, her whole family, that i don’t want to endure anymore, well, as if i have more. i don’t have the strength to accept, to understand all this, and we kind of stopped communicating with him, you gave the money with with the help of your brother and his mother, yeah, okay , but tell me, you say that you were afraid of men, your dad left, you were five, your brother

was born, you were six, that is, two men appeared in your life, but you at that moment they were afraid of men, you say, yes, i also had an older brother, my mother had an older brother from her first marriage, how much older was he? for 6 years, i had a difficult relationship with him, he called me names. it’s clear, yes, periodically, when i brought him to some state, he could, i don’t know, me, he even tried to strangle me once, and with a pillow, something else, like, here. but my brother passed away, i was 10 years old, my eldest brother died, that was the end of my childhood, and this disease, which is revealed only after death, so he played sports, it turned out that he had too much adrenaline, blood he doesn’t process him, that’s how he died suddenly, and i think that after that my childhood ended, why? well, my mother turned out to be pregnant at that time, she decided to keep the child, and i unknowingly i decided when my brother...

i, i was the only one who slept at night and did not feed, so i was a mother, and this had a strong impact on my sister, on me, because before i was 17, well, more precisely, by the age of 17, i came to that moment that this was my first such request for help from a psychologist, because i came to the conclusion that i did not understand what to live for, i never had social thoughts, that is, i didn’t want to, but i just didn’t understand why, and i just understood the conversations there with the psychologist, i took too much responsibility on myself, my sister was

completely on me, that is, i don’t know , there are clubs, kindergarten teachers, being in chat rooms, i don’t know there yet, i did everything, my mother was the breadwinner who brought in the money, i fed, watered and did everything for the family, so then little by little i began to understand that this was wrong, we had a difficult separation with my sister, she took it very hard, tell me, now you live separately from them, yes, i moved in september, yeah, you’re 25, you came. that you are afraid of men, uh-huh, now we are here to help you in a wonderful way, and what will happen? i i’ll learn to love and be loved, now at 25, do you also think that men don’t notice you, don’t love you? yes, yes, absolutely, yeah, despite the fact that i had a period when i was in psychotherapy, i had a period when i started having affairs, and i had, well, these are just real affairs, this is not a relationship, this novels, and at some point i really felt beautiful, cool, but still... “well,

great, now we know that men want me, well, that’s where it all ends, i generally have difficulty with close relationships, that is i don’t really have any friends, i don’t have any buddies, but in the end, with the help of a psychologist or yourself, you answered the question: why live? yes, for joy, for pleasure, how do you get happy? not at all right now, what is your life filled with? while i was in psychotherapy, i started doing a lot for myself, i started dancing, which is what i dreamed of.” a very long time ago i started performing and singing, this is also for me, i started to advance at work, and then at some point i realized , that we need to do the next stage, we need to move out, we need to i had to quit, because at my job i realized that there was nowhere for me to grow, and what were you doing, i was, i worked at a dance school, so i just came there as an administrator, rose to deputy director, that is, sort of, well i grew this school quite a lot, at some point i realized that such internal competition had already begun, with the head, and i left work, decided that that’s it,

i’m leaving, i can’t work there anymore, i left, for the first 4 months i couldn’t think about work at all, i had jitters, and then i realized that i need to look for a job, this process has always been very long for me, i was looking for the last job for almost a year, even a year and a half, now i’ve been looking for six months and i can’t find a job, despite the fact that i live in moscow, but what it means you can’t, is she hiding from you, where they take me, i don’t want to, where i want... they don’t take me, i ’ll still return to my question, what gives you pleasure today? nothing, well, that is, you there, i don’t know, don’t like walking in the fresh air, don’t like delicious food, don’t like communicating with friends, singing, well that is, nothing gives you pleasure at all, no, because i have some kind of fad that if i don’t work, then it’s not real.