psyche, leave applications on the website of the first channel 1tv.ru. hello.

easy money, that is, my colleague and financial analyst mikhail khanov. just in case, i will explain that mikhail is the father of four children, elena is the mother of two children, well, i am also the father of two children, which i am extremely proud of. and one more important clarification, we are talking specifically about science. i understand that every citizen of the globe knows how to raise children correctly and is ready to share advice with anyone. we today. not so much about advice, but about science, about those trends that are happening in the world, in our country, which is changing, and elena, as i understand it, one of the significant trends is the return of the father to the family, as you put it in several of your articles, right, yes, absolutely right, where did the father go if he returns, then where did he go, and for this we must dive a little into the distant past in other eras, before the modern era, and this gives us a perspective or...

from the side of husband and wife they show us that there is a society where fathers were and previously included in the life of the wife and children, and there are societies where the pantheon of gods was quite severe, for the most part represented by male figures, and they themselves were warlike and dominant, and accordingly they distanced themselves from genikei, yes, that is, women with children with all the everyday life around them, this is not a man’s business, therefore...

the home economy in favor of the public, and men began to spend less and less time at home, work, production and family, the family structure began to move more and more away from each other, the deprivatization of fatherhood, that is, fatherhood, began in fact, it is separated from this family home and part of the caregiving function is transferred to mostly women, here we understand that something has happened to the household, and society...

fatherhood is the first thing - this is the availability of the father, that is, he exists , and he doesn't show up at 10:00 pm, when the kids should be asleep, which means he has to show up earlier, shortening his work day further.

life is already in such a way that there is a place for communication in it, and this is how elena noticed, noted, i emphasized this, namely involvement in communication, and not it’s formal for show, and here it’s very important that you want it yourself, because children are such a delicate test, they instantly read falsehoods, and if you leave, you communicate with the child, and just like with your wife, they don’t come home touch. me, let me be alone in the den, it means that you are simply not ready for this fatherhood, otherwise it is impossible, otherwise there will be no contact, no education, no example, nothing will work out if you are not involved, i had enough of this stormy and in all plans youth, and i really wanted, i really

really wanted a child, so my daughter was just so expected, it didn’t matter at all whether it was a boy or a girl, and i did everything there, including. there are drops of beet juice so that, i beg your pardon, the intestinal tract works better, and when we talk about leaving there, i have two marriages, in my first marriage i left when the child was 7 years old, my daughter, this one my beloved, most of all i was worried that i would become a sunday dad, but i managed to maintain contact, well, for example, i was at all the meetings for 10 years at school, that is , her mother has never been to a single meeting, i studied. not so directly pedantic in detail, but i followed this, why these meetings were not easy, when you sit in the common room and they tell you something, when you visit all the teachers, when you deal with the prospects for the development of your child, you sometimes encounter some kind of kicking, that is, well, because i had a precedent when a girl studied with

a fairly famous writer, i was her literature teacher at school, she wrote for him magazine, everything was going to the journalism department of moscow state university, suddenly she was completely ... tutors, suddenly in the tenth grade she announced that she would go to the higher school of economics, because everyone was going there, i think so, oops, well, i had to do something about it also live and raise, but to answer your question, yes, i was very involved, i remain a very involved father, i do not lose touch even with my older children, who are very close, because i have one more, in addition to two children in my second marriage, there is a girl - my wife from my first marriage, whom i have been raising since she was 10 years old and we are still with her here... vkontakte is in full, as they say, and i give her advice on her career, on development, i also take care of her additional education, but how else? elena, in order for the father to be able to fully return to the family, the financial issue must be resolved somehow. i understand that in the nineties, the moments

when it was necessary to feed, indeed , fathers went there on a shift to siberia or somewhere else, i understand correctly that now in a big city, like moscow, for example, you can afford it.

feeding children, yes, will carry with it the consequences are that my father will bring in less money, but this means that my salary is an integral part of the family budget, for the majority. this is additional effort, this is additional money, this is additional management in general for this time, so the understanding that

fewer children, but higher quality - this is childhood, plus on top of everything the understanding that if i now skip this early period of childhood, where does the idea even start from? involvement, then i won’t get these fantastic unique emotions anywhere, and no one will compensate me for their absence and i will to some extent...

but they are present, that’s why, let’s say, the destruction of the most important plot, only a man can be the breadwinner of the family, this is a real revolution, which for those fathers, who choose involvement for themselves, for them it is part of their paternal biography, which will require effort, and some additional parental altruism , including, yes, and this is of course an example. this is an interesting sign of the times. this is the podcast

schoedinger's cat, and we're talking about the role of the father in modern family. about what sociology thinks about this. our guest today, professor at the higher school of economics, elena rozhdestvenskaya, and as a living example of fatherhood, father of four children, mikhail khanov. and maybe it’s not just about money, but in general. roles, because the traditional role is a brutal man with a sword, who worked, lay down on the sofa, thought about the fate of russia, fell asleep, and the wife washes the dishes, communicates with the children, in my opinion, this is already going away, no, you know, at least at least now we are aware of this most interesting paradox, or one might even say it’s a contradiction, on the one hand, most men share this unspoken love for the dominant type of masculinity, the strong.

percent, where there is already a division there is not 60 to 40, 70 to 30, but there is a division of 90x10, namely men with the fact that there is more of the feminine principle in them, there is, say, 80%, and i’m not talking about gender awareness, but just about the perception of the world, they are ready to take on this role, which is called a housewife in the broad sense of the word, but i will say this, returning to the topic

there the children are scattered, not scattered, i stayed with two small children for several days a week. and that’s why i understand that this is the hardest work, yes, when we say, what’s wrong with you sitting there at home , dear, and there, what else have you prepared , this is a nightmare of work, and the main thing is that compared to that work , which a man calls work, but unless he stands at a machine, at a conveyor belt and digs channels, and then there is time to talk, drink coffee, not to mention office work, where we always we can find a respite there once an hour, here you are chained to a machine gun, and like a german, that is, here you children will not give you anything to drink and so on. you are already thinking that when will your man come there or i will come there, when will my wife return to help me with this situation, but nevertheless it is very useful, because you understand how hard work this is, this is really work, it is very important that you do not perceive this as some kind of obligation. elena, as a woman in this position, she doesn’t feel any jealousy, that was her niche, she was in charge of the child, then this guy appears

and says: now we have emancipation, gender roles have shifted, so you go to work. on the one hand, the state offers a certain paternity quota, conditionally there are 72

weeks, but the larger one in the scandinavian countries varies depending on. this means leave to care for a child, but what kind of leave, they pay you for it, and if you don’t take it, it burns out, it cannot be converted just so to speak, get money, yes, but at the same time remain at work, these are the fathers who are not ready within the family, who did not have this fruitful discourse, how will we divide responsibilities, are we ready for this, and psychologically, in this situation, of course, not everyone wants it, it just burns out, and those who are involved for the first time only because... they offered this form, they discover themselves in this capacity, get used to enjoying it, well, still returning to gender roles, i also have children, and my eldest has been married for three or four years, i feel bad about marriage , i watch them live, i see that our traditional idea of ​​men and women is somewhere

deep in the past, that is, there is no this father of the family coming home from work, his wife brings him a sub as... conflicts, let’s say, the distribution of responsibilities in the family, and a couple unites from two clan histories, from two family cultures, which are often very different from each other, yes, because the nature, the affective nature of the family unites us, despite the fact that we may be, so to speak, from completely different corners, yes, shakespeare wrote about this, yes, yes, yes, because

we read it and re-read it, and, of course, we can find a consensus in this situation.

we say that a woman is a family, these are children, and so on, in fact, a huge amount of the first life hack, but the fact that here we are, when divorces occur due to the fact that a man develops, and develops, if he develops, yes, he develops there as an entrepreneur, as an employee, no matter how he goes through some courses, training, he communicates with a huge number of people, then in the end he simply becomes uninterested in a woman who is just a mother with her just talk about the house. about vacations and about children, so this is a note even for women, that if you do not develop, then sooner or later, unfortunately, you will become uninteresting to your man, the second point is

that this should not be some kind of separate men’s affairs and women’s affairs, this is the first rule, all the tasks are common, including washing dishes, washing a child, changing his diaper, yes, yes, yes, this is also a man’s work, no women’s responsibilities. and now returning to that moment when he comes home and doesn’t know what them to do, here’s the life hack: remember what it does, why all wives and women love it when mom comes, yes, because she doesn’t ask, what should i do, but how, what, she just gets involved and starts doing, yes, something around the house, something with cooking, something with the children, that is, she will not pay extra attention to herself in setting tasks, because what irritates a woman, a woman is irritated by a man’s lack of self-confidence when he manifests himself in what does he say: what should i do, how can i help you? they say, she says, more often he says everything, but i don’t need anything, sit quietly, you’re only disturbing with your questions, and it’s easier for me to do everything myself, that is , men, turning to fathers, when you

come home early, if you want to help your wife, don’t ask her , what to do, just do what you think is necessary, and from the first, from the second time you won’t even succeed, from the third time you will learn what you need to cook right now, take the children, go for a walk, leave your wife there so she can spend some time a seminar there, for example, on your own... to do, this is the worst help you can give her, yes, well, what should i do, nothing, that is, you don’t need to ask your wife, what do you need, sit there and don’t shine, as long as you don’t interfere, because another child appears, who needs to be given instructions on what and how, excellent life hacks, but returning to education, development, as i understand it, there is now a rather opposite trend, that... the man has received some kind of education, some kind of job found, and the woman received only one education, thank god we have equal degrees of higher education, regardless of gender, and then she wants

to get more, she goes to a master's program, goes to further education, and ultimately accumulates an educational level greater than a man, no, yes, i will say that this is possible, that it is present, at the same time, it is greater a lot of others live completely differently, they live with stereotypes,

how dominant he is, how authoritarian he is, how he can control, and since the money is in his pocket, that’s why, of course, as far as he is democratically enough

- involvement after, i’m already talking about male reality, a man who is not in free creative professions, creative, who spends his working day, is autonomous from his boss, in general , his employment, his work schedule, etc., largely depend on him, but a man who went as an employee an employee to work, some large corporation in which they are kind to each other, yes, where there is high competition, where resistance to stress is required, which you...

on diapers, switch to understanding whether there is milk for tomorrow on porridge child and so on, and this is generally a difficult task, and of course, so let’s not devalue these real problems, and the large part of the population that actually lives by these stereotypes, is saturated with them and is grateful to them, because stereotypes are like to save our cognitive psychological efforts, we rely on a stereotype, on typification. to understand how to navigate in this world, yes, so on the one hand, yes, of course, this is a wonderful thing, democratic gender attitudes, this shows us at least some such a long-term and short-term, so to speak, perspective, yes, but because of course, these are the emotions that men discover for themselves in involved fatherhood in its mode, and assert themselves in this, yes, mindful of all those social trends , which, as a context here, all this embraces

this phenomenon, on the other hand... you didn’t catch everyone at all. this is the schrödinger's cat podcast. we're talking about fatherhood from a scientific point of view. and our guests today are sociologist elena rozhdestvenskaya and financial analyst mikhail khanov. have the father model stereotypes of this returning father changed? i mean that. well, i used to be, again, i’m a little exaggerating the stern dad who checks the lessons and slaps me on the head. such a controller looking down from above, whether the father has become more partner-like, more democratic in relation to the child. you know, i’m not entirely sure that this is the picture that you describe, yes, and i would immediately think, yeah, this is the same patriarch who is at the head, the patriarch’s surname is like that, yes, and on whom it really depended not only in general all life, but also the survival of this family, today we are going through - not

the recent experience of a socialist state with total state power over the family, because in order to mobilize the broad masses for socially useful work, it was necessary to first unpack the family, if not destroyed and then reassembled on socialist grounds, in this situation the role of the father was completely lost, with motherhood, with mothers the state had an almost direct contract, you give birth and work, so your gender contract. yes, but with men , you are defenders of the homeland and you are workers, but your father has disappeared somewhere, so several generations of the soviet period, men, in general , having moved away from this patriarchal role, came to something vague, not palpable, which today needs to be reassembled anew, here is the variety of fatherhood, types of fatherhood that emerged already in late soviet times,

this and...

in the family, in relation to the child, to the child, i understand, but let’s include it in order to differentiate the picture a little bit world, let's turn on - the plot is related to social differences, but the fact is that on average.

they don’t expect them to warm up their old age in other social groups, on the contrary, they will just expect the proverbial glass of water, if , nevertheless, ending our meeting, to simplify a little, let’s each of us think

about some dream for the father of the future , so i immediately imagined the father of the future, who works no more, but no less, than the mother of the future, who rather has fun with the child and cooperates. what it punishes oversees, and in general there is such an ideal family, where the genders of age are a little vaguely determined by the situation by mood and agreements, so i dream of such a family, fortunately i live in a similar family, and of course i would like the majority of our fellow citizens to have such a family, but very briefly, what kind of family do you dream of, not for yourself personally, i think everything is fine for you, but for our society? for me, an ideal family is where the father and mother, by their examples, attitude towards each other, attitude towards parents, they show their children the path to development and do not dominate the personality, well, that is, the task at the beginning of childhood

is to protect the child from some inappropriate actions and life there , sticking fingers in a socket or scissors in the eye, then simply guide him, identify his super sides, super powers, develop their own. including for me an ideal family - thank you, elena, i understand that scientists are not supposed to dream, they are supposed to analyze, but still , a family model that is desirable for you, which could spread to a wide, you know, many debates, discussions on the topic that the family is disappearing, that the family is in crisis, and perhaps is not fulfilling some very important functions, society is concerned about this, but nevertheless, what convinces is that, nevertheless , family forms will not disappear, will not disappear due to what, we still get together in these unions in search of intimacy, affection, empathy, support, this is the main thing, in this family there may be few children, many children, this

is secondary, but nevertheless what brings us together, what brings us together, we need it, yes, we are also social animals, let’s not forget about this, even despite the brief chemistry, they don’t need this attachment, they carry it out, they can do it, they can talk about this topic, because of course it is important here that cognitive and emotional and psychological, any behavioral forms are connected , when we connect them, we understand the meaning, yes, if we only

demonstrate them, we read them perhaps inadequately, but when we receive emotions and reasoning about it, we formulate for ourselves this, so to speak, formula, conditional happiness, we close, and for this we are together. thank you very much, thank you to those who watched and listened to us, may the power of science be with you, may it help you defeat all sorts of old gender stereotypes. thank you! hello, my name is still dmitry bak, we, as always, have the next episode of a literary podcast right now, which, as you of course remember, is called, let them not talk, let them read, we are today.

we are talking about babelei with a senior researcher at the department of contemporary russian literature and literature of russian abroad institute of world literature of the russian academy of sciences elena iosifovna pogorelskaya. hello elena iosifovna. hello dmitry petrovich. i am very glad to see you. and obbela cannot speak detachedly. well, in my opinion, you can’t just talk about literature. how do you think? yes, because babel, well, seems to demand his entire reader. let's think about it. let's start with this: in the year ninety was the centenary of babel,

yes, well, in the eighty-ninth year we celebrated the anniversary of andreevna akhmatova, and in the ninetieth the year of pasternak, the ninety-first of mandelstam, well, that is , centuries of writers followed each other who had such a difficult fate, as they used to say, so if we compare the two anniversaries, now it’s 130 years. in 1990 it was very difficult, that is

, it was not easy to publish, compile a two-volume set of his works in a fiction publishing house, thanks to the efforts of the widow of the writer antonina nikolaevna pirzhkova, this was done, and if we generally start from anniversaries, then every 10 years, naturally over the period of decades... well , quite a lot happened, but if, well, let’s say, we compare it with the last anniversary, yes, the 120th anniversary of babel, which, probably, you are on or 125, well , he is 125, not as it would have been celebrated , and 120 years were celebrated, but i will say that during this time, during these 10 years, it managed to come out, and now, in general, now, of course, it is being published. babel often, often in these days

with good circulations, and even in 2006 a four-volume collected work was published, but now i’m talking about mass editions, already several three-volume collected works, massive, several, i can’t give an exact figure right now, but about three or four collected works were published, in this...

five volume, yes, if we talk about reader popularity, hasn’t it decreased, because everything... in the year eighty-nine, in the year ninety, yes, people simply tore off this two-volume book, which had a difficult fate, yes, because babel had not published decades before, there were like two editions, yes, the end of the fifties,

the mid-sixties, that’s it, isn’t there now, well, no such decline, well, routinization or something, well... another great writer is everything, and not someone who needs to be immediately read, obtained, bought, i think that this kind of rotinization, as you said, does not apply to babel, uh, the same way as it does not apply, for example, to andrei platonov, of course i don’t know, but i was told that when the first posthumous collection was published in 1957, that it was generally a colossal event, indeed. then only in sixty-six, the sixth year , they came out, well, such collections were published during that time, well, the first thing you can say is this the collected works are small in two volumes in the year ninety, it seems to me that babel is such a great writer, like andrei

platonov, that you understand, so well , how to say, this is the charm, the charm of their skill, their style. it kind of holds the reader captive, that’s another matter, another thing, can i finish that i’m talking now only about the reading audience, yes, you can love babel and not love babel, you can love platonov and not love platonov, that’s another matter, but they read, i’ve been teaching for 40 years, i see regarding many writers, there are such waves of popularity, no offense to them, they are large, yes, andrei bely, yuri trifanov, very different, yes. but there are davlatovs, there are periods of decline, because, well, this can be easily read, well, from the inside of a specialist’s point of view, of course, it seems that nothing is happening, and elena pogorilskaya, the country’s largest specialist in babel, i tell our

wonderful interlocutors who they are listening to us now, watching, after all, about isaac immanuilovich himself, here...

the son who spent 10 years in commercial school, and then went to university, as happened with babel, after all, did one contradict the other or not, what influenced him? i think it doesn’t contradict, if we talk about, let’s say, a commercial school, let me remind you that alexey remizov also graduated from a moscow commercial school, but probably in that period, that is, not, probably, certainly in that period there was no kind of vocational school. ..