i’ve just been teaching for 40 years, i see that many writers have such waves of popularity, no offense to them, they are big, yes, andrei bely, yuri trif, very different, yes, but there is davlatov, there are periods of decline, because, well, this can be easily read, well, from an expert’s point of view, of course. it seems that nothing is happening, and elena pogorilskaya, the country's largest specialist in babel, is telling our wonderful interlocutors who are listening to us and watching. but still, about isaac immanuilovich himself, that’s how much of him the biography was non-literary, correlated with the literary one, because he studied at commercial educational institutions three times, yes, at first.

at the nikolaev commercial institute, school, school, commercial school, of course, yes, named after sergei vittai, and then in odessa, yes, nicholas i then at the kiev commercial institute, where he finds himself in the midst of all sorts of events, the murder of stalypin, akhmatov there , at this time in kiev, i mean, yes, well, how are bellis’s affairs, bellis’s affairs, of course, at the same time.

school, let me remind you that the moscow commercial alexey remizov also graduated from the school, yes, probably, as if in that period, that is, not , probably, for sure, in that period there was no professional education for writers, yes, this arose later, and well, it seems to me that babel, as he wrote, really, himself, he... he thought of himself as a writer, probably first from childhood, by the way, he also studied at the law faculty of the psychoneurological institute in petrograd, but did not graduate, and babel, well i don’t know, maybe his family prepared him for this, but no, family, family of course not prepared, the family did not prepare for this, but you see, he really read a lot, that’s what concerns... the odessa

commercial school, it gave a very good general education, it was at the odessa commercial school that babel taught , he spoke excellent french, yes he translated mapasan, he spoke several times at rallies in french in paris , and it was there that he became familiar with the french classics, which had a significant influence on...

biographies by elena pogorelskaya and steve levine. just in case, i'm providing the exact link. very often, when illustrating your biography, you and the author refer to literary texts. after all, literary texts were a means of somehow processing life experience, expressing it, and or these were parallel things, but not every writer is so immersed.

yes, well, babel himself, when, yes, yes, yes, in the thirty-first year , the story, awakening, was first published in the young guard magazine, and then in the new world was supposed to come out, yes, the story in the basement, he wrote to his mother that i'm, so, after a long break, i published it again - in the next one from the same series there will be a story, which i will later unite under this general heading of the history of my dovecote, they are all about childhood, but of course a lot of lies were written, as he himself said yes , in my opinion, in the basement, yes, that he

strengthened the beginning there, the ends, he recently emphasized some composition, i also have the impression, i don’t know how it really was , of course, good, well, how are you here ? shukshin is the password of good literature, character, close your eyes, why? well, close your eyes, well, mother in usa. and everyone thought that they could move it like some piece on the chessboard, and then at some point they realized that they wouldn’t succeed. what are you doing? nothing, why did he leave? i don't know how to behave. some kind of unattainable thing, to exist in the frame as the main character and also be a director, this is a rare, very rare gift, oh, if i were in your place, i would make such a film, are you a hero or what? they should have broadcast it on the radio, but we have headphones they don’t work, why did they launch me to the moon,

shukshin is something that cannot be overestimated, pushkin is everything, shukshin is everything for me too, for vasily’s ninety-fifth birthday... shukshin, what? where did ours go? on saturday on the first. well, we continue to talk about isaac immanuilovich babel, and we are having this conversation with elena iosifovna pogorelskaya, who is now working on preparing the collected works of babel in five volumes at the institute of world literature. i'll ask you this - a classic question for the former time, and well, babbeli’s famous phrase that the bitter one sent me to the people, well, this is like an allusion to the ending of the story of the bitter childhood, when grandfather koshirin says to his grandson, you

are not a medal on my neck, go to the people, yes, then gorky’s other two stories begin, and babel changes a lot of occupations, at this time. i’ll ask you this: how does he accept the revolution? doesn’t accept it, well, that’s how he feels about soviet times, but of course we don’t live in a time when people were relegated to the right on this basis or left. led astray, yes, created completely, remember, mandelstam says that people knocked out of their biography are like balls from billiard pockets, i just remember this phrase very once, like babel with the revolution and with everything that happened in russia , then in the soviet union, you know, the distance is enormous. then in the soviet union, i would probably have sinned against the truth if i had said that yes,

babel accepted the revolution, completely, like mayakovsky, yes, my revolution, and i would have sinned against the truth if i had said that babel did not accept the revolution, but i want to illustrate this, if possible, with an example of the early beginning, babel has essays in the newspaper: novaya zhizn, gorky’s newspaper novaya zhizn, that is, the most famous, where there are untimely thoughts, where there are timely thoughts, then essays 18, there is such an essay, evacuees, which begins so that there was a plant, there was a lie in the plant, but in unjust times there was steel, and so on and so forth, the truth came, it was poorly arranged, people began to count, so with four families were evacuated from the baltic plant,

the carriage was parked, poorly strengthened or not strengthened at all, and the author of the essay comes, well, that is, babel to mertvetskaya, where there are these four families, 25 people, 15 of whom are children, but there is another essay, about the revolution, there is another essay, which means the palace of motherhood. by the way, he is the only one, that’s where such, well , let’s say, bright from these pictures of petrograd everyday life, which he describes in sixteen other, that is, essays, and there he writes that shooting each other is maybe it’s not stupid, but this is not the whole revolution, maybe, who knows, this is not a revolution at all, in general not everything is clear, okay, you need to give birth to children well, and i know this, a real revolution, that’s it. ..

says that the revolution cannot help but shoot, because it is a revolution, this is where we will do our traditional beating, we just have telepathy with you, lina, because usually, as, of course, our interlocutors remember, i’m in the middle release, i either show some old book, or analyze a poem, or read something from the classics, but today, of course, i decided in advance that i would read a piece from babel, a fragment... of the story of that same gedali, let us read this with you, revolution, let’s say yes to it, but

will we say no to saturday, so begins gedaliy, and wraps around me with the silken straps of her smoky eyes, yes i shout to the revolution, yes i shout to it, but she hides from the guide, sends forward only shooting, does not enter her closed eyes. the sun, i answer, to the old man, well, i mean lyutov, the one ilena named, but we’ll argue, eyes closed. the pole closed my eyes the old man whispers, barely audible, the pole is an evil dog, he takes the jew and pulls out his beard, oh the dog, they are beating him with an evil dog, this is wonderful, this is a revolution, then the one who beat the pole tells me, give it to your register...

a home for orphans, good deeds are done by a good person, a revolution is a good deed by good people, but good people do not kill, which means revolutions are made by evil people. but the poles are also evil people, who will tell gedali where the revolution is and where the counter-revolution is? i once studied the talmud, i love commentaries, there are other understanding people in zhitomir, not only moimonit, rashe, whom he calls, here we are all learned people, we fall on our faces, a biblical expression, we shout loudly, woe

to us, where is the sweet revolution, the old man fell silent, and we will see. with elena iosifovna pogorelskaya, who is now working on preparing the collected works of babel in five volumes at the institute of world literature. tell me, please, is babel still an inventor, a jerk, well, a person who strives to make the ordinary unusual. i remember the story in the basement, the scene

of the death of the dutch, dutch-jewish, if you like, the philosopher benedict spinous. well , spinoza came up with a lot, yes, pantheism, i once knew this very well, natura naturans, natura naturata, creative nature, created nature, this man, immersed in philosophical abstractions , dies, suddenly at the moment of his death the artist rubins appears, this clearly it couldn’t be, it ’s not that babel is modifying his life, rearranging something, this is the 16th century, how to be here, why, why is this being done? well, yes, indeed, rubins, who died, if i memory serves me right, 37 years before spinoza’s death, nevertheless, in babel’s story he finds himself at the philosopher’s bedside, but you know, babel in the second half of the thirties said: “literature consists of three phenomena: firstly, real

life, we must very it’s good to know real life. this also means that in 1937 , on september 28, at a meeting with young writers, he said that if i found this smart reader, then i immediately think about how i can deceive him, that is, i. i guessed it, that's it, you guessed it, you see, in such a paradoxical way, here is babel, yes,

inventing this, intertwining what is, well, kind of incompatible, he is very convincing, criticism also wrote about this, or rather, criticism already wrote in the twenties years, that babel is very convincing, and can i just briefly, you mean you said about the story in the basement about spinoza and rubins, and i have two more examples, cunarmia, it begins with two geographical substitutions, not even displacements, but submenograd, transition yes crossing the sbruch, firstly, there is no sbruch, novograd lies. on the sluch river, this time, then, supposedly, it means that the convoy is moving along the highway running from brest to warsaw, which could not have happened, because this highway is located far to the west from the scene of events, and in the story it replaces the highway, liberated already a highway

between zhitomir and novograd, well, look, this is not just a lie, but what is it for? what is this for? well, firstly, it means the harness, well, here, i kind of have my own opinion, yes, i have it too, so, first i’ll talk about the opinion of other, so to speak, researchers, but along the sbruch river, about a month later , events actually took place there, in the volochy region, but during the soviet-polish war, but they, without the participation of the first cavalry army, means that the bruch appeared, not during the period of the action described in the story, and later, from the end there, even from the beginning of the first.

i think that for the babel there is this sound, there is this transition through the harness, yes, here is the transition through the case, if we said it would not be the same, but this is one of the reasons, but it’s so purely artistic, this was the opinion of a professional, now the opinion of a non -professional, can i tell you how i perceive it, how the students perceive it, i ask them, what kind of war is described, in general, not everyone clearly remembers... but really the soviet-polish war of the twenty-first year, the twentieth, the twenty-first too, so well, i’m telling the kunmi events, the events

of the twentieth year, of course, yes, yes, yes, it’s true, but look, babel, with all the accuracy of the topographic, yes, we passed this and that, passed that, he is building a war of the worlds, yes, that is, there is a catholic world, there is a jewish one the world, there is the soviet world, this is, well, very about. and i always repeat the famous phrase of viktor shklovsky that babel does not change his voice, he speaks in the same tone about

the stars about bad diseases, even shklovsky calls these bad diseases more directly, that’s how to call it, this is some kind of strange expressionism, remember the terrible ending of the same story, crossing the bruch, where you will find a father better than my father, first the crossing. across the river, where someone is drowning and loudly denigrating the mother of god, and here the sun rolls around like a severed head, and then suddenly it turns out that the mistress of the house puts it next to the corpse of her hacked father in a pogrom, but all this is said, well, somehow with an intonation that is not very easy to catch, such a van-hock or something, yes, it’s like... expression - transforming nature into such lines of force, twisted, like this, no , this is a paradox, this is, well, well, i don’t know

how it’s a paradox, can i then quote from shklov’s, who said the meaning, well, as it is, the meaning of babel’s technique is that he speaks in one voice about the stars, about awe, yes, that’s right, the point is that it’s bad. very unattractive, sometimes even shocking and it’s unclear how they combine in a short segment of text with lyrics, even

heroic pathos, irony, please tell me how they relate, we ’ll talk at the end, at the end of the release, and how the two main bodies of stories relate, odessa and canarmey, you know, well, how they relate, well, still, excuse me, you can’t do without knowledge literature, firstly, i wouldn’t call them, well, sort of bodies, which means babel, he is a master of short stories, novellas, but he didn’t write novels, he didn’t write novels, they don’t even have notifications, but it’s not a common case, by the way, but babel all the time strived to enlarge the genre, yes...

which he for some reason- then it is paired with the story lyubka kazak, but for some reason he did not include it in this series, he did not publish it again, the only time in his life, that’s right, that’s exactly lyubkazak, and then ’32 is the end of the almshouse, not published during the life of babel, froem grach, here is the last question, i’ll ask you, you just said about story by fraim grach. well, in the nineties , readers got used to the fact that they - get acquainted with new texts by babel, previously unpublished, this is what awaits readers in the near future, maybe new texts, maybe new interpretations, what will be in the collected works, and what is the fate of the reader babel, what will change, this is the forecast, it is possible to give something new, in principle, it will be, no, what will be new, what do you think, how will

the fate of babel develop. in the second quarter of the 21st century, i hope that it will be develop happily, but we will make efforts for this, but if we talk about the collection of works that are now being prepared, yes, it will be, well, maybe the most complete, five volumes, five volumes, but due to the fact that everything known will be published and revealed today.

will be interesting and important, a lot of wonderful discoveries await you, today we talked with the head of the work on the collected works of babel at the institute of world literature, a senior researcher at the institute of world literature, academy of sciences elena iosifovna pogorelskaya. i thank you, dear elena iosipovna, for this wonderful conversation, thank you, i am sure that we will see you again in our podcast, to you, our dear friends, as i always say, read with pleasure, no evil will befall a good husband, after

death there will be the good are rewarded, and the evil are punished. these words are inscribed on the scroll that our today’s hero holds in his hands on the fresco. the fresco is located in the annunciation cathedral of the kremlin, and the hero’s name is socrates. hello, dear friends, alexey pavlovich kozyrev, dean of the faculty of philosophy of moscow university, igor evgenievich surikov, chief researcher at the institute of general history of the russian academy of sciences, dear friends, i’m vladimir ligoydov, let’s talk about socrates. igor evgenievich, let's start with how, in fact, this fresco, you wrote a lot about it, how it appeared in... that's what i know, that in general all these sayings are like socrates, there and there are other sages, the so -called external sages, in general, the sayings on him are described quite well were arbitrary, and what you

call the complex of sayings of socrates, we will find these phrases no more than in any other thinker, well , especially since, as is known, socrates did not write philosophical texts, but they usually say i didn’t write anything, not quite right. still , some texts have been preserved, but not of a philosophical nature, well, at least it’s very interesting in any case, maybe we’ll come back to this, i have you know what the first question is, for you personally, even if take your mind off things professional activities, as far as possible, here is socrates, first of all - who is this, alexey pavlovich, meme, generally speaking, because there is not only socrates, the ancient greek, but there is also the moscow socrates, nikolai fedorov, and gruzin.

proclaimed, but pythagoras preferred to remain silent for the better, because, and the following explanation goes on, god does not have this, does not suffer for this, and generally speaking, there is a russian proverb, silence is golden, the word is silver, therefore in russian culture, in traditional, in ancient russian culture, socrates, this is such an almost saint, justin the martyr said, christians before christ, before christ, but for you here is such a personal question, well , i’ll start with the fact that it was pythagoras, who said that the silence of gold would have been completely impossible to shorten chatterbox, well , in fact, socrates, first of all, is a figure, as they say now, super-promoted, he is the most famous,

certainly the most famous, the most famous of all the ancient greeks, even people who have never thought about antiquity at all, have no idea no idea anyway they once heard something about socrates, they say about things they are very familiar with: every schoolchild knows, so in socrates for sure, not only any schoolchild, many preschoolers have heard and know that there was such a sage socrates, this is some kind of grandiose figure, becomes, in fact, embodies and almost replaces the entire ancient philosophy, the perception of non-specialists, at least. you know, here we then directly run into a question, and which i cannot get around, this is still the possibility of reconstruction in general, yes, to what extent is a historical socrates possible. are you in in your wonderful monograph, you say that you are leaving this... question outside the brackets, since it is, well, in some sense unsolvable, if i remember correctly, and i recently leafed through william guthrie, yes, the author herself, as far as i understand, today a complete book on ancient philosophy in a multi-volume edition, and it

seemed to me that he was very optimistic, guthrie says that in general, that’s how they describe him, that’s how he was, it’s just that plato imagined him that way, yes, xenophon to others, and he, by the way, said, cites the most interesting... from schweitzer, guthrie, where schweitzer says that our description of christ is much more reliable, since simple fishermen wrote, the difficulty with socrates is that outstanding people wrote, but plato alone is enough, that’s how it is between these two, actually designated positions, how solvable is the problem of the historical socrates and how much it needs to be resolved, well, after all, since the trial of socrates is one and the same event. make sure that it really happened in history, trial, condemnation, and execution, the death of the righteous, at

one time, when we read about polodius socrates with yuri anatolyevich shichalin, in ancient greek, he said the following phrase: after all: this is the death of the righteous, in a sense this precedes the gospel, this precedes the death of christ, and indeed, this is the fact that in culture there are such system-forming, meaning-forming ones.

only people are interested, i’m interested, i didn’t like to go out anymore, i said, what’s there for me? no not what the same nature will tell me, the same meadows or rivers, it is known that he three times participated in campaigns, showed his brilliance as a warrior, and of course, especially well -known in the last period, he was a hoplite, yes , he was hard, yes, it’s interesting that he was a hoplite, what does it say about him as a person, well, not quite as poor a half-hearted man as i imagine, because army. each warrior acquired armor and weapons for himself at his own expense, the state did not supply this, the hoplite complete mural, let 's say, this is a pansie, shield, helmet, spear, sword, it is always cheap, and the poor people in the hoplites could not listen, it is possible that he at the end of life somehow became impoverished, i suspect that simply because he was engaged in pure philosophy, he completely neglected the affairs of everyday life, i probably neglected the economy, and to be honest, his grumpy extant type, in some way, probably nagged him, let’s say, that he was, to put it mildly, not at all a family man. not ideal, well, and of course, already the events

associated with his trial, stay in prison and execution, this is known literally in such details, but if the teaching of socrates from the point of view of strict facts is some kind of thing elusive, i have already said that in the eyes of many he almost embodies all of philosophy, in fact his role in the development of philosophy is enormous, it is impossible to argue, even to the point that the entire history of philosophy is divided into pre-socratic and after socrates, but what exactly this role consisted of is very problematic. to man, yes, that is, if the treatise of any

natural philosopher before socrates, parminides, impedocles was called periphusius, about nature, yes, then socrates began to teach about man, as , in fact, the sophists did, protagoras, who said that man is the measure of all things that exist, that they exist, and not existing, that they do not exist, but the view of partagoras and the view of the sophist.

there are not so many sophists here as rhetoricians. listen, well, here’s another interesting thing, of course, it seems to me, the point is that, well , correct me if i’m not entirely accurate here, that this is the understanding of the famous... the ancient greek expression to know yourself, which is attributed to one of the seven wise men, yes, it is precisely from the time of socrates and thanks to socrates began to be perceived, this is how we perceive it today, yes, studying your own, your personality, there, your inner world, pays attention, so to speak, to yourself, yes, but initially it

meant something completely different, oh, it was a famous saying , one might say, this is in the archaic era - this is one of the main slogans of all life, gnosis outton, know yourself, it would even be knocked out. at the entrance to the delhi temple, this belongs to one of the seven sages, sources there do not agree, well, it doesn’t even matter, really from the beginning in a self-archaic sense, what is it to know oneself, this is a certain subordination of living beings, a certain subordination of the cosmos, at the top of this subordination are the gods, man, let ’s say, occupies far from the highest position in this hierarchy and he must remember this and not rise too high high, do not strive to become a god, knowing yourself, in essence, to know your place in this world, it is, it is not that high, to know your place, that’s how you can be a little bolgorized, say, you want to be in weightlessness and improve your health in your joints, swim, because it is a load without vertical axial gravity, about how

to save joints about many other important and interesting things in the program to live, great, tomorrow on the first. never see you, here is some snowy woman , you and i will stay just like that, i won’t forget melted, by the way, she melted and i’m now absolutely free, hello, i’m not even knocking,

i flew to you as if to confession, i love you, imochka , i missed you, call me, i ’ll come interestingly. what did he wear today? fantastic! on friday on the first. alexei pavlovich kozarev, dean of the faculty of philosophy of moscow university, igor evgenievich surikov, chief researcher at the institute of general history of the russian academy of sciences. i'm vladimir ligoido, we continue. and if we return, perhaps, not to the teachings of socrates, but to his method, yes, then probably. one cannot help but say about the method that he, while describing, recalled his mother, the midwife, yes, well, this, in fact, is maeftika, maeftika is the art of the midwife, that is, it is necessary to help a person come to the truth, even without giving birth the truth, remember it, because according to socrates

we already know everything, like birth, we just forgot, maybe some kind of birth trauma happened to us. in this way, talking with a person, asking him some questions that lead to the search for truth, a person can prove the pythagorean theorem itself and generally come to any knowledge, but that’s why socratic dialogue is an immortal tool not only of knowledge, but of education. we know not only the name of the father, socrates francis, yes, but also the name of the mother, yes, and that is very rare for the greek. that is, usually usually, let’s say, the greeks didn’t like it when people talked about their women, but that case was special, she was the rarest woman in the public profession, a woman-prime grandmother, that is , as a midwife is now born, let’s say, that is, usually women led the greeks in a reclusive life, but once upon a time...