find a good, bad self, then you, this is some kind of split personality, dispersion, i would say personality, splitting - this is when mom is only bad or dad is only good, or i am only bad, uh, in general, here to collect this integral picture, and for this, for this, and accordingly, you need to go to this experience - which well did not allow a person to separate, there is something, what does it mean to go to the experience, something yes. something, something

happened there, but again, we collect anamnesis, talk to her, how it was for her early childhood is arranged, how her relationships were arranged later, how they are arranged now, according to this picture of the family, but what i heard is as if, well , the facade is holding up, people there don’t really go into feelings, and most likely this is my hypothesis, because you indicated, this is the impossibility of separation, there is a certain prohibition on aggression, yes, on the manifestation of anger, and it is like, you know, passive, here you did something wrong, here you have some kind of background irritation, accordingly, and since a person cannot to separate, what does that mean, to build your personal boundaries, yes, even your ego, that i am separate, my parents are separate, and anger is an emotion that signals to us about how our boundaries have been violated, and so we already see... and what a girl needs, well,

to work in general with the manifestation of her own, her own anger, to understand what aggression is, aggression, in my opinion, translated from ancient greek, if i'm not mistaken, is a forward movement, two words, that is, aggression, forward movement, that it is not scary, yes, that's it, well, accordingly, we would do this in therapy, yes, we would learn to endure it, then the moment would definitely come, when anger would rise towards parents and it could also be lived through and after that it would already be possible to build a new type of relationship, i 'm not even talking about the fact that certain dreams would be dreamed there, we would symbolize them there, that is, working long and hard for years, well, yes, in the cognitive-behavioral approach, yeah, if we are talking specifically about the cognitive-behavioral approach, then we would rather talk about the present, because the cognitive-visionary approach does not involve going into the long past, yes.

anamnesis would be collected, but still would focus on what our heroine feels about herself in relation to her mother now, and what thoughts does she have about herself, that is, we would, for example, begin to work with the image of herself, with those thoughts that are in relation to herself, with those thoughts -attitudes that are in relation to mother, and accordingly, that is, for example, i ... a daughter, and mother is the ideal woman, which i cannot become, and not necessarily so, after all, if we are talking about the fact that she cannot separate, we are talking about insufficient autonomy, which means that it is more likely a matter of lack of self-confidence, inability to rely on herself, inability to think positively about herself, but rather there will be negative thoughts about the fact that i can’t cope with this life, i’m worthless alone. i don’t know

how to live independently and so on, that is , if we dug into the cognitive level, we would see some kind of destructive beliefs, well, that’s if it ’s a woman, but for a man it’s different happens, men also have negative beliefs, everyone, yeah, that is, here is the problem of separation, we just have a request from a woman, but the problem of separation, based on your practice, is typical for both men and women, it is universal, of course, absolutely universal, then we would work... on this semantic field, and reformulating some attitudes into others, gradually destroying negative attitudes and forming more adequate ones, more responsive to reality, with an exit, naturally, to implementation in behavior, that is, that he, that is, you decided would be a problem here now so that they learn to fix it in a month somehow like this in the moment, if there were some reasons from childhood, then this is already kdaria, rather yes, that is, and this... the cognitive approach is rather about

another way of thinking, breaking the old habit of thinking, i simplify yes now breaking the old habit of thinking and forming other. more adaptive habits, amazingly interesting, friends, fascinating psychology, which is still a science and art, and we will try to understand with you further, here in in this format too, to consider not only different situations, problems, but also different approaches, and as we have seen with you, that this is really creativity, sometimes it is a conflict, of these concepts, and sometimes it is, as we were able to see again in the example of our today's heroes, our... today's experts, sometimes it can be such a joint activity, but it would seem, poorly compatible scientific concepts, psychologist artur timofeev, who presented the cognitive-behavioral approach today, psychologist daria pankratova, who to us

revealed today the main parameters of jung's analytical psychology. podcast psyche. hello, dear friends, this is the podcast life of the remarkable, with you i am, its host, writer alexey varlamov, my guest is writer daria dontsova, head of the poetry department of the novye mir magazine, research fellow at the dahl literary museum, pavel kryuchkov. hello, hello, and today we will talk about korney chukovsky, well, of course, pavel works for us at the chukovsky museum, which is part of the dahl literary museum in peredelkino, and daria is our guest today not as a famous author, but as a person who

personally knew korney ivanovich, remembers him and can tell us some unique things that no one else can tell, i would like to start with this: in russia you have to live a long time, just as i just said, some witnesses of those years that korney ivanovich said refer to, and even i saw in the dictionary of quotations, catchphrases, this phrase is authored by korney ivanovich, but putting my hand on my heart, i will tell you, it seems to me, and my friends and colleagues,

that after all these words appeared earlier, he just somehow gave them life, well he didn't just give them life, he actually brought them to life. and if he hadn't fallen ill with viral hepatitis, then maybe he would have lived longer, but in any case he saw a lot, he has a huge life experience, therefore, of course, the main thing that today most of us know remembers, these are children's poems, well, in general, books for children, but this is only a part. of his work, part of his life, part of his destiny, but in general this is a huge life, and let's let's start from the very beginning, and he is not karney chukovsky, right, yes, he was baptized in nikolai, here is the patronymic, since he was born illegitimately, the son of the maiden korneichukova,

ivanovich was chosen, or the priest who baptized was father ioan, that is , sometimes they gave godparents, yes, maybe there was a godfather there. even wrote in the diary, i do not have such joy as, uh, grandfather, not to mention father, and wrote that even in childhood i knew that we are not like everyone else, that i am not like everyone else, he said for a very long time, just call me kolya, because it is not clear what patronymic

to say, he was also emelyanovich, emmanuilovich, but maybe without this he would not have become a writer, god knows, sometimes such wounds, in fact, they make people, somehow in any case this fate of his was reflected in his book. for teenagers silver coat of arms, very strongly in the diary in different years, maybe, in any case, he became a real father to his children, having no experience of fatherhood to himself, he himself ... became a real father, well , by the way, silver coat of arms is one of my favorite children's books, especially when they they write a dictation, it's just some kind of masterpiece, yes, a masterpiece in style, yes, he ties the rope, it's just brilliant, someone there divided these words with commas, and i wonder, was it really or did he make it up, i think it was, it's very difficult to make it up, it seems to me, class, to you, giving, how he was remembered, i understand that you already saw him as a grandfather, most likely, yes, well, of course, i saw him already as a living person.

he made a children's library for us in peredelkino, i read it almost all there very quickly and it became, then, 5:00, so approximately evenings, i very often knocked on his dacha door, sometimes lidya korneevna opened it and looked at me, i said, hello lidya korneevna, i need such and such a book. but it is not in our library, she answered me: dear, please come in

, the chocolate cake is ready, this is the dacha , that's where i entered, this is the green one, there was a veranda, and i entered here through this entrance, here you know what's surprising, my dad and lidya korneevna, they were on different political poles, dad is a convinced communist, a sincere believer, and in the bright the future of communism. and lidya korneevna has, if you look, there is a forest, a forest plot, and there was a gate in the fence, everyone knew that some people came to lidya karneevna through this gate, we children did not understand which ones, but the adults whispered that some, but i am the daughter of an ideological enemy, you understand, and, oh, this is an office, and such an enemy, who was definitely very unpleasant for lidya karneevna, but - she let me into the house and i never felt that i

was not loved in this house, there was no such feeling never at all, she wrote in her memoirs: i remember this moment, the bonfire hello summer, the bonfire goodbye summer, the princess who was supposed to play the main role in our children's play, i thought it would be me, but it wasn't me, and i was in tears, i was about 8 years old, i came to arna ivanovich. to sob, to cry, to stamp my feet and demand that i be a princess, he has it in his diaries, this is right here, he has an entry in his diaries, and you are in this photograph, no, maybe you are, but i can't recognize myself from behind, i can't recognize myself, here the girl sitting in a colorful dress and white bows, this is tina kotaeva, valentin petrovich's granddaughter, i just remember her dress very well, there behind her in a dark blouse is lida, and lida is...

let's talk about his family, and here is pavel, tell us who is here, who? well , karne ivanovich is recognizable, to his right is his wife, marya borisovna, above korney ivanovich, the youngest son boris, who died in the war, yes, in the very first battles, next to boris is the eldest son nikolai korney chukovsky, a writer who is 120 years old this year birth sky, baltic sky, frigate drivers, translations, sherlock holmes, henry and so on.

we love her very much, that is, he is such a happy family man, but on the other hand , a lot of drama has already been laid down, yes, yes, somehow, yes, a lot, really a lot, you understand, there is such a memory, and somehow we, i just remembered, just participated in one documentary with the respected daria, and valentin semenovich, who does not remember

literature, participated there, and a person dear to us with alexei nikolaevich, here he told the story he always told, he loved this story very much, although it went through him, he once greeted korne ivanov, he was young, a beginner, a pushkin scholar, talented in everything, karan ivanovich greeted him, and he somehow even became one of the favorites, and one day he did not hand in some work on time somewhere in a publishing house or something, and they threatened to break off these creative relations, and he came to kornei ivanovich and told him to complain: what's the matter, you did not hand it in on time? yes, i will, maybe you can help me somehow or something, korney ivanovich called and said, there on the phone, you did everything right, yes he is with us, and yes, and valentin semenovich, he was somehow stunned by this and korney ivanovich almost in

a sedative mode, very seriously, fatherly, so he said to him, listen, well , why did this happen? he said, korney ivanovich, i had circumstances, insurmountable circumstances, he said: "i understand you, you have circumstances, i also have circumstances. i am a sick old man, i buried two sons, i sat for a year and a half at the bedside of my dying daughter, i survived three wars, hunger strikes, i didn't eat, sometimes, i had to hand in an article on time, no matter what was happening around me and to me, i got up every day in the morning and worked, what do i wish for you, understand, we are like actors, people can die around us, something can happen, we are obliged to go on stage, and then a brilliant phrase: this is our destiny, and it is a sin to evade it, the unmemorizing one says, it all entered my consciousness and heart, and then i lived as

a different person, by the way, let's talk. whether literature chose him, let's go back a little to there is its own kind of its own adventure in all this, as it seems to me, because from early childhood he read a lot, and there is a memory in his diary that he was a bureaucrat, skipped classes at the gymnasium, from where he was eventually expelled, came to the park in the city. in odessa he climbed into a hole filled with fog, read avidius out loud to himself, reveling in these lines, you understand, that is, for him it was a completely narcotic excitement of reading, he read indiscriminately, a lot, and it so happened that in the end he decided that well, that means i will now too a writer, he didn't have a university

education, he didn't have any university education when he was expelled from the gymnasium. he just went into freelancing, helped his mother, earned extra money there, pasted up posters, painted easter eggs, painted roofs, and that's how, by the way, he learned english on the roofs, here's a famous story, that he was scraping off old paint with a spatula, a knife in his pocket, writing words, learning, making sentences out of these words, they were absurd and it was easier to remember that way and that's how he learned the language, in this regard there were several wonderful legends, for example, in england, when he went for the first time, they stole from him...

i didn't understand where he got it from, when they start asking, where do you get books, scientifically, here is my husband, he could explain where he gets a book from, these are well-read, that is, bookshelves, yes, this is where his next textbook comes from, or something, where karni ivanovich got the books from, i think, i think, he himself did not know, resistance, resistance, there was nothing to read aloud to little children, absolutely nothing back then, well, for those, who are 2 years old, so you want to say that there was none?

these are russian folk songs , melodious, coquettish, and what they took from holidays, from holidays, here are the kolyatki, all that, well, yes, well, there was none,

there was no literature for small children, there was none, especially for city children, why did i say resistance, you know, well , there are also several legends, but it seems very true and plausible to me, everyday kolya, the eldest son, they lived then. it was part of the russian empire finland and in helsinki they went somewhere they were walking and he was hit in helsinki a cart was passing a horse was turning kolya had to see a doctor to see a doctor there was a surgeon of a russian boy with without approval so he did something to him they went on a train back they went i think to petersburg they went and kornei ivanovich the clatter of wheels so that kolya would not whine began to make up for him the clatter of wheels adventures of a crocodile and when i used to take... excursions for little children, i showed, i say, do you hear how the train goes, there once lived a crocodile, here is kolya, there once lived a crocodile, he is on nevsky he walked, a cigarette, listen, the train is picking up,

he was smoking, in german, at first he said, crocodile, crocodile, crocodile, and he got to some place there, if he speaks, then, and so the crocodile appeared, it was somewhere around the year fifteen, if not fourteen, he was already reading it out loud at the bestozhevsky courses in the fifteenth year, and... he was even present at that, in the sixteenth year the thing was already ready in its main parts, then karney ivanovich decided, already being a very famous literary critic, he decided to seize, as i joke, at the magazine niva, even not to mention seizing, creating a children's department , making an application for children, in every issue, starting from january of the seventeenth year, until december of the seventeenth year, that is, under three regimes, he began to print his crocodile, some chapters right on... the set is finishing writing, you can see from the proofs, and this first children's always submitted everything on time, no, no, sometimes right before the very printing, but he did not

miss a single issue, in all twelve issues the crocodile came out, the crocodile came out, and he did not yet understand that he had turned into a classic of children's literature, yes, and at the same time, it means, the book about blok, yes, it is one of his best books, and he was very friendly with blok, he in the last years of his life. co-blok from his book, a piece, i have this book in my hands now, twenty-fourth year, look, it is a real book , indeed, you see, here karniy

ivanovich read a piece from... because for a lecture before a wide audience you cannot choose from a critical book, it was not very accurate, and he says: blok listened to me, with all his heart participated in my failure. kornei ivanovich crumpled this lecture, ran off somewhere under the stairs, blok read his beautifully, found karne ivanovich, did not console. he said his mother did not like it either, but ordered that they take a photo together, because napilbaum came to take a picture of him on a photo korne ivanovich, here sat next to him, and he said, yes, blok looks at me with a very sympathetic expression, dear friends, we continue, this is a podcast of the life of the remarkable, with you i, its host, writer alexei varlamov, we are talking today about korne ivanovich chukovsky, our guest.

foreign newspapers write that chukovsky's friend is pastornak, this is not so, comrade, fellow worker, but there is no friendship, friendship is a gift from god, this is a special thing, he was just very, he was just very tired, there was no longer, who was his circle of friends peredelkino, you know, i we

practically. all the time we hung out at his dacha, yes it's just, and he was calm about it, yes to us, yes, here about this photograph can i say a few words about this they gave him a headdress - that means an indian chief, kornei ivanovich adored this headdress simply to, i do not i know how, he lit all the fires wearing this headdress , he always remembered to say that a real indian chief had given it to him, sometimes one of the children would shout, indian, indian, i say, no, indian. every time, every time i would correct him, he loved it very much, he loved this headdress very much, and of course, he was just like a child, he was somewhere inside himself, he was just with us as equals, but you know, there would come a moment when he, i caught it very well, when it was time to leave, so you sit at his house, drink tea with a cake, that's all ok, everything is fine, lidya korneevna, korney ivanovich, someone else came there, i'm a child, i

have to keep quiet now, i don't... ran away quickly, that is, mentally you are sitting on his lap, yes, then it was like on the moved hands, like carnivan with whom you are talking, he is cheerful, he is like yes, he is broadcasting something, and i look at him i understand, no, it would be better for these people to leave, but i can't tell them this, you understand, it was like a curtain was falling for him, at some point people began to interfere with him, nevertheless, yes , i still want to say about people, chukovsky

that's precisely because he knew. a lot of people, and not just he invented a genre for children, he invented the genre of chukokala, because it seems to me that this is a book that has no precedents in world literature at all, so he took it, took it and came up with it, yes, this is an absolutely amazing handwritten almanac, here pavel, how did this book come about, it came about, repin came up with it, repin was his neighbor in a finnish village, in this kuokkolo, and ripin combined the surname...

if they don't remove it now, up there, if you look closely, it's written right on khadosevich's head, but khadosevich himself had to be removed from kokola, he's not there, of course, as an emigrant, and also. exactly with zamyatin, this is the cover of 1979, almonakh arose spontaneously, there are also several such stories preceding this spontaneity, i like most of all what repin has - it means his arm hurt, the doctors asked his friends to watch him so that he wouldn't strain his arm, and so, uh, and he always, when he came to korne ivanovich and wanted to draw someone, took a napkin or something, and so one day karne ivanovich pushed a notebook towards him, here is a hand-hand... and he even drew with a match in this almonakh, there are repin's drawings with a match, which are dipped in ink, here are the first notes in the chukokal - these are repin's drawings, domestic, everyday ones, and then he saw , korne ivanovich, that this is

an incredible treasure, these notes were created in moments of rest, here is repin's workshop korne ivanovich, this is the day of tolstoy's death, that is, when the newspapers reported tolstoy's death, this is repin reading this newspaper, yes, he wanted it. photographer bulla is shooting for the newspaper, for the newspaper speech, in my opinion, just such a ceremonial photograph, you know, repin reads about the death of tolstoy, but repin really didn’t like this idea, but somehow according to legend he said that if chukovsky sits down with me, i will take a photo, so this photograph was published, yes, of course, it was published in newspapers, in my opinion, even abroad, here are their wives standing, korniy ivanovich, their two versions of this photograph, there is korniy ivanovich sitting next to his unfinished portrait by repin. and behind repin we see a painting by repin, oh, tolstoy and sofia andreyevna, and judging by the testimony that has survived, having learned about tolstoy's departure from home, repin remade this picture

very quickly, in front of kornei ivanovich he turned lev nikolayevich's face away from sofia andreyevna, if kornei ivanovich had not made a note about this, no one would have known about it, how interesting, such a lively reaction, here 4 years after this photograph will appear. monk chukola, and in this almonakh there are even poems by repin, there in general everyone was doing something that was not their business, there is even a film about this, like shalyapin sang there on this in this elmonakh, well yes, you are really right, alexey nikolaevich, it is a genre, it is a special kind of literature, if we talk about successors, then valentin yakovich kurbatov, our famous critic, he has this book podorozhnik, he is also, of course, very and you really feel, when you write something there, responsibility, right? and you have to do it quickly, yes he did not give time for reflection, it was every time, you know, it was an incredible adventure, here is alexey ivanovich pantileev, whom i mentioned, i knew karne ivanovich when i was very young, and in my later years i came to peredelkino and they slipped him a chuko-kola, korne ivanovich slipped him a chuko-kola, and something moved poor

alexei ivanovich, he had a homeless youth, everything was a mess, he was a hooligan , then he suffered for years, he... kornei ivanovich, it's scary, korne ivanovich put it down and left, and he was there with oskar valtka, he finished eating, you understand, akhmatova was there, but it was just some kind of horror, what to do, there he was sitting, sitting all wet, korneonich, well, how, then it dawned on him, in the wrong direction, of course, and he he put his thumb in the inkwell, and as expected, made an imprint wrote a criminal case of a homeless poet... no, then for years, yes, yes, it seemed great, in fact he came up with it, but for years, yes, but, but then he was horrified, why did he, what did he do, and, elena tsezarevna, chukovskaya, who was very friendly with him, with alexei ivanovich, she never missed an opportunity to tell him, yes, yes,

chukhal, we are preparing for publication, your entry is there too, we were recently given a wonderful gift, give it, we were given one, there is such an old one radio, yuri ivanovich mityolkin found it somewhere in the archives of leningrad radio broadcasting. alexey ivanovich tells this story, i want us to hear this recording on the next april 1st, there is very little of panteleyev's voice left, by the way, a question about recordings, we will definitely listen to chukovsky's recording, which he made a few months before his death, but first, if you have any other books, you want to show them, pavel, since we will be wrapping up, i took them with me, so, off the top of my head, but i just i wanted to say that already in this century such wonderful memoirs and letters have come out here. amazing, here we meet in the year of the fifty-fifth anniversary of the death of korniy ivanovich and a wonderful entry it went in the samozdati articles of yulian oksman, literature-veda, how chukovsky was preserved, it began with the phrase:

"the last person who was at least somewhat embarrassed has died." i remember. and here are the letters of arseny torkovsky, where he calls korniy ivanovich shakespeare for children. this is also very well thought out, wonderful. and has karkovsky been to this house? of course, of course, he has been there on april fools' day , there is a photograph, i recently published this photograph, where he is sitting with his wife, you remember who is in this house, from famous people, well, many of ours...

i would say a religious reaction, he said, i am ready to kiss the artist's hands, you understand, he somehow treated incredibly reverently the fact that someone has artistic talent, regarding hands, regarding hands, korniy ivanovich always had such a big hand very warm, and he somehow understood that i had a very strict mother, i had a very strict grandmother, these books at hand, when you sit like this and cut, make a book like this. they fall, you get kicked out from the table, this is my childhood, i

sometimes got very upset, and came home upset, he always somehow like this, somehow did it, like this, looked like this, yes, and then he took like this, put his hand on your head here, and such a big, you know, warm, warm hand, you let go, that's what you're sitting here shaking because you were scolded at home, it's all somehow scolded let go, and he looked at me like that, said, everything will be fine, in my life, in my life there have been a lot of different people, good and bad, yes, but in my life i've never had such a feeling that i 'm loved just like that, you know, and they love me without expecting a response from me, it's security, you know, yes, i have this feeling, well somehow dad left early, i didn't have this feeling when he left -

my evening is behind me, ever thicker, the night is approaching, the darkness is above me, it is in vain to ask: wait, however, i do not see anything terrible here, nothing distressing, here i humbly follow in the footsteps of my idolized pushkin, who never knew how to be afraid, as he should, of the threats of inevitable death, his whole attitude to it... he expressed in cheerful verses: "and our

grandchildren in a good hour will displace us from the world, just like that, in a good hour, and may they be happy in separation from me. forgive me, please, yes, i understand you, of course, yes, of course, yes. he said in sad moments, there was a lot of tragedy in life, you have to be kind, you have to, that's what chekhov was trained in." kindness, it seems to me, he knew how to do it, he trusted children, why did you feel this energy of warmth, kindness, because he trusted you, because he understood what a person's soul is, he was not... he was religious, but the soul, the concept of the soul lived in him, he had a soul, very dramatic, so tragic, but real, a soul, although i probably still may not agree with you, because i the girl is orthodox, i read on kleris, now sometimes thinking about karna ivanovich, naturally,

there was no religion in the conversations, but now i remember how he lived, what he was like, he was definitely not a future orthodox, yes, he was definitely orthodox. literary museum named after dahl, pavel kryuchkov. therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and

be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. this mystery is great, i say in relation to christ. to the church, so each of you will love your wife as yourself, and a wife will win her husband. apostle paul, epistle to the ephesians, chapter five. hello, today we have gathered our thoughts about the sacrament of marriage. opera singer svetlana feodulova, protyrey igor famin, and finally, the rector of the church of the holy blessed prince alexander.

of course, everyone has their own life experience behind them and that is why it was not easy, but i remember, just now it somehow arose that we agreed that everything should be honest, extremely, directly tell absolutely everything, and this was also in to some extent it was difficult, it was a revelation for us to read the rules together, you know, it was such a first experience, but it gradually somehow united us, strengthened us. now i can say that i have no feeling, i am really afraid, maybe it is right to feel the feeling of fear, but now we will ask father igor, i understand that maybe this question is already a little suggestive, well , how should we understand these words

of the apostle, what is it all about, that is, is he afraid me my mother, well i would really like her to be afraid of me, because in general these words are addressed... not to the spouse, naturally, to the future head or becoming the head of the family, in general , the man, that is, in what should she be afraid of him, she should be afraid of losing him, she should be afraid, let's say, of offending him, you and i know very well that it is very easy to lose, yes, yours, like an elephant in a china shop, somehow you turned the wrong way, rubbish, crack, human rumor poured into the crack. cold came in the relationship, yes, all this the crack grew bigger, and the people separated, that is, here the fear is completely different, the fear of loss, loss of communication in general, so of course i would really like my mother to be afraid of me, yes, i try, but i don’t know, well, there is.