the on the go and need tonight out is there is only mobile app, is that the is, this is where we dissect from. i'll just there is a mobile app available in your favorites apps to just set for it and type download the new app from out to 0 new at you think is it the diplomats in both a rarely use resolution that the un general assembly to try to stop israel's one, gaza after the united states to be towed as security council attempt to pull for a ceasefire. is the veto power power lies in the un? should it be permanently revoked? this is inside the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm several then yay! the emergency session of the united nations general assembly is bringing is really massacres and gaza into sharp global focus. often more than 9 weeks of violence, the un security council has been unable to agree on a ceasefire warning of a global threat. un secretary general antonio gutierrez, and both they rarely use the article last week to urge the security council to act . but despite an overwhelming majority voting in favor of a ceasefire, the us blocked it using its veto power. critics say this absolute power of the 5 permanent members of the security council renders the world's body helpless at a time and global conflicts demand timely solutions. so is it time for the veto power to be removed? will it help the you and become more effective? we'll discuss these issues in detail with our guests shortly, but 1st, this report by sent them on you end diplomats get a closer look the war and gaza. the ralph of crossing is the only entry point for

humanitarian aid into the territory. nowhere near enough is coming in, and most palestinians are prevented from leaving nice work that is a bit closer to what you see, how the assistance is being of is being raised quite a bit to into so if it goes with this question, despite the purpose of this situation does, this is a journey i tried to teach and it has been too long. we have suffered too much. so for this the protocol, so tell me a they had to maintain peace and security as our primary responsibility. and we have tried the very heart, of course we, we need to do the visit was aimed at building international consensus on the need for a cease fire. last week, a resolution was tabled at the un security council, but was vetoed by the united states. you,

inspector general said you continue to press the issue if you've got to believe the security policy on site to the weights. but dep does not make it less necessary. so i can problem is i will not give up the and upholding. there's been more success at the general assembly where every state has a vote, and no one has veto right. on october the 27th, it passed the resolution cooling for humanitarian pause. button un general assembly resolutions are binding with you. it was founded in 1945, the charter gave special powers to 5 permanent security council members. the u. s. the u. k. france, russia, and china, of each, as a veto, is used extensively over the years. the u. s. is bought more than 40 resolutions on israel. critics say the current setup isn't working. as the international community is unable to respond effectively to global crises. there's been many proposals for

reform including limiting the visa that expanding the number of permanent members on the un security council for not one has been implemented. or you can see israel's bombing campaigns as killed or injured tens of thousands of palestinians. most of gauze is population has been forcibly displaced many families, several times. israel has rejected calls for permanency expire, as pledge to continue with the sol, despite growing appeals for an end to the violence. vince and bald headed out to sierra for inside story. the. let's bring in our guests in northern wales is con ross, the founder of independent diplomat. the non profit advisory group is also a former british diplomat. served on the un security council. and it's, i'm a bad many hello to you. is a former pakistani ambassador to the united nations and was closely involved in discussions about the reform of the security council in las go. now if you have

just left microsoft, former russian diplomat, german of the russian friendship society with arab countries. welcome to you all con, 1st question to you. 18000 palestinians have been killed. most of them women and children. and the new and security council is not able to call for a ceasefire, even though most of the world wants to see the fighting stop. is that you when failing that? it's primary mission. yes, undoubtedly i meant the un security council is the world's primary body for a peace and security for peace and security. and the us as blocks any action, as it has traditionally done on israel, published by an issues. and on this occasion it has clearly blocked the security can selection. so now the action goes to the general assembly. and so, by the way, just to make this clear at the time of recording, we haven't yet seen the vote to the un general assembly. it will happen in

a few hours. there is likely to be overwhelming support for pause in the fighting. and it's probably going to be called a ceasefire in the language that they're looking at. but we really have, we have, we have many viewers from what could be called the global south analysis 0. what are they supposed to think when they see major powers on the one hand promoting international rules, and then blocking the only multiple multilateral system that we have to uphold them when it suits their interest as well. i think most people in the global south would be extremely disappointed, but not surprised by the way that the security council, the way it's structured is, is not working. i think at the heart of its dysfunction, a nice the fact that we have a structure of the primary body responsible for the maintenance of international peace and security which reflects the arrangement of a bygone era. i mean,

the 5 permanent members all dead because off to the 2nd world war arrangement. and now the security council needs to reflect garden, the global realities, which it doesn't. so i. ringback this disappoint looked in the global so, but there's also a sense that this body must be radically deformed if it is to live up to the responsibilities of the 21st century, because it does not reflect 21st century the entities. and for that, it is important that either the security council is reformed in the manner that you increase the number of elected members who can then balance the bar exercise by the b 5. 0 you move to end the v 2 we, they pause even though i think that would be a very difficult, difficult thing to do because any reform with the security council with which you know, i have get involved in the negotiations for almost 5 years. any reform would involve

an amendment to the child to the united nations and that means that due to its majority of the general assembly will be required. and then rectification, all those who have voted for it including the 5 permanent members. so here's the dilemma or the problem. the problem is that the 5 permanent members of the security council do not wish to give up. it's we to and therefore we're looking at a situation where they have been recently moved by the general assembly to try to at least limit or to embarrass a, the permanent 5 and they use the we do it. i think we should remember the countries that have used it. most of it is the united states and russia. did you get a kingdom? is the number to country that used to be too many times, but china and fonts have used it less. so the 2 countries that have used it, most of you know, that i'm the names of fact how they either tried to shield themselves or the allies of from st. you or from any kind of action which leads to security. guards of

dysfunction ineffective and lacking legitimacy. okay, just love i want to bring into this conversation, but before i do that quick little explanation to make sure our viewers are up to speed on just the very basics of how the un security council works. the un security council or u. s. c is 15 members, 5 of which are permanent, and they are essentially the victors of world war 2, which is when all of this was designed and, and built and they are the us, the u. k. rush at china and france. and those 5 only have the rights and the ability to veto any resolution that comes to them. okay, and that's what we're talking about today. so you have just a lot of i want your take on this as a former russian diplomat because it on this particular concept the war on gaza. countries have been critical of the us vetoing a ceasefire. but there's another concert going on still going on, of course, russia and ukraine, and on that conflict, it's been the other way around with russia, vetoing any attempts to impose

a ceasefire in that war. so we see that the major powers use the veto when it suits their interest. what is your take on this, this issue of the veto power and whether it's blocking the you with. and of course, if we don't have a room at the current international affairs, we'll find out that a unit you and not a good notation was established in houses as a result of the 2nd world war. the prep magic island speaking, it was still bowers. that split did and sup, uh, and value in, in the 17. again, this is a germany united states and soviet union. it was so a few years ago. and now we face in the series that too big force america, and are russia who replace the soviet union, split?

absolutely different positions. and now if you're a little 5, i look at the situation in syria where, uh, the uh, russian troops facing, uh, american through ups in dallas or in the, uh, on the how, what does all the drugs danya job done? and uh, they are also on the crime where they are fighting and the russian view on what situation, you know, grand is a russia is fighting, not old. oh, great. oh, great. in the military forces this, right. what but it there for these forces are supported fully. mike, what's the question is the power. busy or in the you and yes, now it's a veto power. it is necessary to think what agreed on in the ideas or goals. it was a compromise to find a compromise. those,

such as by united states and soviet union. now where the russian federation is, in the state of new against the advisors, they will find or compromise, empire or common solution. it's not, it's very difficult if they look at details on any conflicts, not only in the gaza, why i remind you are 2006 investigation in live button on. when is riley, i'm at 2 monsters. was bombarding their own and is in the left button on the british and morrow night militia now who was destroyed by is arose, strikes the overall gets the rise bone being in whites because comes out is that right? is, is that time said, this is the in lebanon. we have 3 aging and your big middle

east with the question i really want an answer to is out, is there a way more or less the works or doesn't work the land land that this conflicted gun conflicted with this situation in united nation instead, go to do council, of course to different position they've gone to, to main bowers didn't have up what you needed to find a solution. common solution. because america going to see the russia last rush. and so you're doing your last a rush right is re guntee with guns going to take into consideration of the, the desired, the brands, the position and all is the united states can dominate. well. now we have at berlin pep land on gaza, on israel with land. it is gold. do you offset, ensure that it is assigned by uh, as we said, oh, discussed by yeah. just let me,

if you don't mind me, i'm going to have to jump in because i really want to get you started. i'll have to jump in because i really want to keep it about about the un mechanism right now for preventing conflict and keeping the peace. that's really our focus today. con, we just heard 2 different positions. one essentially saying we need to, the un needs to be more inclusive and it's decision making. and that means perhaps get rid of the veto or whitening the veto power. and another of you, i just love saying vito is necessary because it's a compromise between the major powers. now you are a british diplomat and you resigned. this is interesting from the foreign office after the iraq war. that's when you founded your advisory group independent diplomat, diplomat, because you figure that there was a democratic deficit, your words tell us about that and how that applies today as well. it applies because many, many smaller countries and known state groups, many of whom are involved in conflicts with this piece around the world. i'm not

entitled to speak at the un security council, or indeed of a u. n. bodies. when that issue is on the table, southern dependent diplomat was founded to address that problem by keeping small groups democratic groups, army democratic groups, the tools, the diplomatic means to get to those security council members or general assembly members in other ways. for instance, by organizing private informal meetings, but the, the, the, the, the, a speaker who talked about the democratic legitimacy of the security council was absolutely right. it's not a legitimate body in this membership is not representative. but the paradoxes, you make it larger and perhaps expand, extend the use of the veto to other new permanent members, and that will make it even harder for the security council to reach agreement. and one of the paradoxes of what your russian contributed said is that the veto is indeed in some ways necessary because it forces the big powers to agree or not to

agree to a particular resolution. if it doesn't vote for resolution and they can't be target, they may well say, well, why should we implemented? why should israel implemented in the case of casa because we haven't voted for it? and that's a paradox of the veto, in, in the sense that it forces the big countries to adhere to the rules agreed by the security council. not so in your view, it should be to power be retained, and perhaps notified or should be scrapped to i think it should be modified. i think they should be consensus and the general assembly to limit the use of the veto. so lucian stein, the little state election, started, has proposed the reform west by the veto could not be used in the case of massachusetts, the old war crimes. and i think that's a very sensible reforms and reform and many other countries with support. but i think, i think that's reasonable, the rest of them is that security council members, permanent members, should be applies to explain themselves to the general assembly when they used to

be when the general assembly might then take out the issue as they have done on palestine today many who do we still live in a rules based order? if the majority will, of, of the majority of countries in the world, as they've been expressed by the general assembly is blocked by just a handful of countries can be blocked by a handful of countries. but of course, the answer is no. we do not live in the rules, but based international order, but i do want to address something that you talked about earlier, which is the idea that expanding we do wielding falls with some of the security guns. and i didn't at dollars uh mean that i meant one way that the security goes, it can be the form to be more representative, more comfortable, and more current of it to reflect. today's reality is, is for it to expand by adding electric members. and the idea would be that that

would help to balance the bar of the b 5, because the b 5 are not going anywhere for now. if they're not going anywhere for now, then of course, the answer also lies in the initiatives that have been taken. for example, the french mexican initiative to try to limit the use of to reduce that it is not used in cases of mass atrocities. and then there's also a european initiative some years ago which seems to limit the use of the read of so in cases where there is a humanitarian situation. but these initiatives are there, there's growing support for them amongst members of the general assembly. but clearly they haven't been able to achieve the objective because they have not been implemented. they've not been agreed to me. how? by how, what's the, what's the most realistic plan be at this stage? they've been many avenues for a form that had been proposed. they've been considered in various forms. what's the most realistic plan be?

what i think it's hard for realistic plan be to come into play until the b 5 them degree. and i think that is what lies at the heart of the problem. and the problem in the sense that you're not the same, the problem is that the, if i would, they be doors. but the solution also lies in them voluntarily of giving up or at least limiting the use of the we don't, but we don't see that happening. so i think the general assembly membership has tried to go to that by initiatives like ensuring that the use of the v 2 is explained to the general assembly. and this happened last year to a resolution that was adopted by the end assembly. and of course, this led to an open debate in april this year by the general assembly off the use of the veto, which was the 1st time that the major debate to please don't forget that over to the kids of the go see ations and what is called the going to go menter,

negotiating process at the united nations in the general assembly have not produced any outcome, but what it has done is to highlight the need for to pull off the security council . and the need for accountability by the b 5 to the general assembly with offshore is the argument of the word. well speaking of parliament to the world, this interesting you say that and yes, just level come to you with this next question. i want to pivot the resolution 377 because as in the absence of a resolution 2 days ago, uh by the un security council, the general assembly said ok, well, we're going to invoke this. this rule that we don't use very often, which essentially gives us expanded hours, and the primary purpose of the united nations is to keep the peace. the un security council is not going for a ceasefire. so we're going to try and do this. it's our turn, and by the way, the general assembly represents the will of almost every country in the world, right. it's a 193 countries, if i'm not mistaken,

that the general assembly. however, however, what they passed is non binding. unlike the resolutions of the security council, so my question to you, if you have just slot, is this just a pressure tool, then a pressure tool in this case aimed at applying pressure on the us? well, my probably read the opinion that there is pressure on us of the car. so it's very important because previous, the voting for a previous project offers edition in the security council. all is the united states and it is or supported the product method, the list of bose product might declare c. as fire is the lucian, i assume that the even the united nations general assembly at dot 1292 persons or voices for the support police union and demanding stop

dealing. who it is, it will pull, feels this decision general assembly security to console or username all lived in that mean? nothing. yeah. god they, i believe that united states i am betters with the situation in gaza. is trying to prove to the incidents on benny. i mean that's on your own is or is to change that you have to stop a bone being to stop, but killing people. but who is that you can decision a real decision on the ground. then you have not done yet. you've heard of use to do what it will be measures against him. he's sick, you to do console is already to on the take any of the real steps to, you know, to impose that decision to dollars. who does the full fewest? what america as it the obviously day is it shows in the way she

is not imposing desire, then you mean that, that you have why? because there is a blend plan of deal of century that i mention that means that no, but it's still, you know, add up going, this is ryan that get it to do. all of them should be outside of the day to day. why is that blaming now? is your age, you why their blood mean that will jars on or don't accept refuges because they are understanding very clearly examples from the previous days when they leaving their house as they live in that category. veterans that soil they big game or is huge, is outside the country and the brand of century deal or censured. it is going to sue's thoughts to create a new situation inside these items without any conflict,

confrontation with glow go people, but it stands high saying this blend of new frontiers over uh, uh, in the middle, is it, uh, also a weight dimension. this situation is julia in charge of the furniture allow me to the respectful way degree. so i'll call you because you mention more just say it's i can do is i can jump and you've mentioned the deal of the century's multiple times. so that was the nickname given to the what the trump administration had proposed to these release and the palestinians. it's not active in any way under the bite and administration, however, biden has addressed this. this is how biting of knowledge, the importance of just recently, of global public opinion. this what you have to say. we continue to provide military assistance. you wait until they get rid of them off

the line, but has to be careful. they have to be careful. the whole world, public opinion can shift overnight. we can make that happen for it and relentlessly for the safe return of the hostages. so con, you heard that the whole world's opinion can shift overnight until now. the us, as it seemed fairly impervious to the pressure from other countries. this is one of those little data points. if you're reading the situation carefully, that suggests may be, may be actually they, they are taking this into account to, oh, they said me oh and they always have been even the same, may not acknowledge. so in public, of course, countries even one's as powerful in this dominant as the united states can a great deal about the water, what the rest of international law, the rest of the international community, think about the actions and they will be feeling very expose. they don't like wielding the retailer in the un security council. it makes them look very isolated

the votes, and the general assembly will demonstrate the same thing. but there's a large majority of countries in the world who wants to see spa and only the u. s. news read on a few allies, oppose it, and that's not a comfortable position for the us to be in luck with israel. israel says it doesn't care about international to meet international opinion, all the views at the you end, but it actually does. and this will accept a certain kind of pressure on them, on the us and israel to ultimately stop minutes, reaction and goals. i don't think it will be a ministry imperative that stops the action. exhaust of what type of these ready say about i think it will be external diplomatic pressure. but we had, did you think that there is a breaking point so to speak, for the us, where the international pressure becomes such that the us stop using, for instance, it's vito power and shielding israel from a from the un security council call for a ceasefire. it was if it was then it should have happened by now look at the

scale of the killings and gaza. look at the number of children who been killed. look at the turn of a calamity that has befallen a gaza. a global opinion is very clear, global opinion has been expressed in the previous but you, in general assembly of resolution, it has been expressed in demonstrations that are taking place across the world. and yet the united states seems to not be responding to this a, there's a disconnect between what it says and what it does. it's not new. we've seen that happen before also. but the tragedy is that by the time the united states realizes it, what really left and goes to the death and destruction the and the fact that the united states continues to provide is ryan with weapons and the high tech weapons at that . why seeing that it wants to predict the civilians in gaza. i mean you can not get

to move, a bigger disconnect than that. so unfortunately, these dump standards, the hypocrisy of the us position is something that has be noted across the board. and they wouldn't be a diplomatic cost for the united states, but for now it seems to be a bonus to the global opinion. and that's all the time we happened today. but i like to thank all our guests. con ross many collodion. beatrice laughed microsoft for taking the time to have this conversation today. and thank you to for watching . you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. delta 0 dot com is prefer the discussion to go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. you can also join the conversation on the x or handle there is at a j inside story. for me, serial then yay and the whole team here in doha bye for now. the

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