the streets because of the sense of urgency that we have if we don't know more and more lives of voices, you don't often hear trouble. nations do stand with paula spine. it's the same server and share of displacement. connect with our community and talking to conversations you find elsewhere, you see where the political establishment is in terms of justifying genocide, brand new episodes of the stream on which is your so what does a new phase in israel's, on gaza entails? it's on the is putting some truth from this trip. it says it's adults in most how this information is against him, off. can israel to the chief? it's objective and the will. this is inside stored the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth, put on him as well as longest will, is entering a new phase and 83 months and as well as military is pulling some of its forces alice of gaza. but prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the flies again. some also will continue for many more months. the new strategy it seems to focus on counting optimal targeted attacks against the group, but with more than $20000.00 palestinians killed and millions displaced. so i'm questioning whether israel kind of a cheat, but some of the tree goals, political divisions inside and outside is there a few and criticism of method, you know, who's handling of the war and quite possibly shaping has decisions on how to approach it. so what does this new military phase mean for israel, the palestinians, and for how most vices will explore those issues with i guess from the moment 1st this report by katia lopez 40 on it's a new stage in the war on gaza. some is really,

soldiers are being withdrawn from the strip and some analysts see it as an attempt to shift. the military's focus to more targeted attacks against him offs. a way to redirect attention to 11 on or hezbollah fighters had been exchanging fire with his relief. horses to show solidarity with post in ins and outs of the one she dreams of what's up before the 2 most we continue. intensive strikes to hit has below deployment close to the northern border, so it no longer looks as it did on october 6th. nor will it to the move comes a mid whitening political divisions in israel's coalition government over how to manage the war and how to end. it should include under pressure from a small chart by coalition partners. prime minister benjamin netanyahu cancelled a war cabinet meeting last week. for postwar arrangements were due to be discussed, despite israel's removal of some battalions from the strip. he says, strikes, ogazio will continue this one know it's

a whole lot of what is on the we've had great success and the will and also some painful cases. achieving victory will require time on them. as these riley on the chief says, the will will continue for many more months. reform for good. nothing yahoo is facing criticism on several fronts. israel's biggest scale like washington, this pushing israel to scale back as indiscriminate attacks ongoing stuff at home. protesters are still calling on nothing yahoo to secure the release of us really hostages and it lives another say nothing. yeah. host credibility is that risk and political pressures are likely try being is decisions. i'm afraid that the government appears to have prioritized otherwise. uh otherwise it's so it's a mission and do hostages is not on the top priorities. in order to release the hostages, a ceasefire must be taking place. there is no other way in what could signal

another significant shift? the us defense secretary has a now. so withdrawal of aircraft, carrier dropped ford from israel shores. the threat of spill over conflict. he says, has declined the war on garza is israel's longest war. in nearly 3 months, more than 20000 palestinians have been killed in more than 2 minutes. land displaced. and now as israel looks to a new phase, many are questioning what is being achieved, both in the short and long term katia a little bit so the again how to 0 for inside story. the pittsburgh in august and london is andras creek associate professor of security studies at kings college london as an expert on security and strategy in the middle east in haifa, as deanna bu to palestinian lawyer and full legal advisor to the palestine

liberation organization. and also in london is you'll see medical book, professor of international relations and associates, federal of the mena program program. chatham house, a very warm welcome to all of you, mr creek. i'll begin with you in london, there has been a lot of tool for weeks now. about a new phase off the wall, most notably with the u. s. urging as well to conduct its operations differently. what do you think this new phase will look like to? yes, i mean the is really, is have been under lots of pressure over the last couple of weeks by the americans in particular to kind of turn down the intensity of will fighting. and for the last 23 weeks, we were talking about the next phase coming soon. and i think we're entering that new phase now. the americans really wanted to see an end of fighting and kind of hoping that that would be more permanency is finding the making unfortunately is really just saying they haven't achieved any of the objectives yet, particularly when it comes to freeing hostages and, and also kidding. the most senior members of hamas. so the next stage is probably

going to be a little more low intensity counter insurgency phase where we see operations being conducted by kind of spare headed as sort of special forces. and the end of the pioneering force is what we will remain within the gaza strip. and what we see on satellite images to appear to be fortified forward operating bases and from from which they could now operate deeper into the territory. but we'll see some of the kind of rear end of idea of forces whether or not to seize territory, but to hold territory to kind of be a kind of incrementally being removed from the gaza strip. and then we'll see also more targeted operations to kind of respond to emerging targets when they come with probably close air support from the will and then allowing probably hopefully publish thing is to return to whatever is left of the houses and which is obviously not a lot and allowing for more you might turn a to come in, but these really is a building this at the moment. they really haven't laid it out yet. we're seeing we might have a press conference later today where this will be outlined in more depth. all right,

miss, lose her in haifa. do you think that the next phase, how hopefully you that a next phase of as well as operation could be, is not the beginning of the end of this full. certainly a move to what mr. creek describes as a low intensity. i disagree, i think from the beginning israel has made clear what it wants to do with the gaza strip. this is not at all about returning israel is, it's all about blue cleansing the gaza strip and perpetrating of genocide. they've made it clear from day one, when they said that they wanted to see a smaller casa, and they send out population. imagine if we and if you'd heard people around the world talking about sending out the jewish population, an ad for nearly 90 days, seeing bomb after bomb after bomb just c global outrage. but what they do instead is they're couching this in terms of some sort of military faces when we know that that's not at all the case. if they want to be, israel is returned,

they kind of return them within the 1st few days when the offer was on the table. but instead, israel's taking the opportunity to ethnically cleansed because of strep engine perpetrated genocide. and i don't think that we should be shy about saying what it is and israel's doing. and i also disagree with the fact that these claims that somehow the united states is asking is real to ease out. they've had opportunity after opportunity to actually vote in favor of resolutions. us security council resolutions demanding that is real stop and instead they've either be towed or they've upstate. and so they're not doing anything to put any pressure whatsoever on israel. this could all be ended. if the united states picks up, the phone is said to israel, enough is enough, or the world said the israel enough is enough. but all that i see is that there's, there's a genocide being perpetrated. and people are talking about phases of, of a military operation is quite silly to mr. metal. but what do you think of what

you've heard so far, and how genuine israel is, or even the us is when they talk about doing more to protect civilian casualties, going forward more targeted operations against the leadership of homos rather than the white scale bombing that we've seen so far? yeah, i think it's difficult to really decipher what's, what's the intention here because we have so many concept get to the messages from these other from. ready nighted state, so the international community, so i should be there for the fall of 19 is i'd say is so i believe you're talking about using that population of all of god. lucy, unacceptable against inflation and no paper likes, some smokes. he's talking about the only way. so security is, is the only 800-002-2008 papers a listing and saying, does that, i don't think this is this other than that. so i think that is the last of it that

says some of the 5 high pipes supposed to be sent to me and goes out and, and the, using the population of the day that the people of guy says if i just use the. ready anywhere else and i don't think. ready is going to be situation that up to stay as well. i think whole, we'll go into into a finally a said earlier into a norm kind of city intensity. well, obviously your manual 1st close will assist for a long, long time ago because the level of, excuse me. so the bottom base had to go above that is completely. ready unacceptable, so we need to most joined to in twins. this file was easily playing is that. ready the most to face lee or fault of the slow as as a result of the discharge. many of the lives of these let's. ringback let's remind that police now, so the views that you're using in past when you're right now he's based on this. it means that he's also phenomenal impacts to this. i mean one of the reasons mr.

michael, but one of the reasons best uh, is rarely officials have said that they are pulling so many troops out of dasa is to return the reserves to civilian life, to shore off the, you know, rules basset economy is. let's go to let me come to you here just how much of a consideration would you say that is rarely economy is to the rule cabinet and it's decision making. okay, i think that with nothing you know, really cares about is nothing yahoo and he wants to stay in power. and unfortunately, the longer this war continues, the longer it is that he is able to stay in power. and this is exactly what the calculation is at the same time. these realize are quite worried about the body bags that are coming back into israel from the gaza strip. this is quite a high number for the israel isn't. i don't think that they expected this level of resistance back. plus, of course there is a battery economy, but i think 1st and foremost this is all about nothing. yeah. wanting to stay in power and doing everything possible to prolong this for which is why i very much

disagree with this isn't about ethnic cleansing. it is. he's made and clear. he's now pushing other countries to taking people to take him to people from gaza. they used to store the infrastructure completely. he's destroyed the largest pals city and city, which is guides, a city. and it's all because he doesn't want pal students to be able to return back to the gaza strip and he wants to stay in town with stomach of bug, the latest pole by the israel democracy institute shows that only 15 percent of his res, want nothing. yahoo! to remain prime minister. do you agree with miss boots? i do think that he has a personal interest in not discussing the future. we heard that a wood cabinet meeting was cancelled last week. amid reports that method, you know, who doesn't want to discuss what happens after the war to why in this i can see. ready the other things, unfortunately, it's not being in the hygiene,

taken hostage by, by me, you know, especially because if you scroll option it's, i hate, it needs to state to same out last so potentially not to go to j and not to metrics collection times, never counting choice it's natural conclusion. so in this sense we, i think this is, this is the case and it seems that i see. ready in for the law, as long as this is the issue is that there is a combination of all between for the war and him saying impulse. but yes is, is, is levels of suppose you think these are, the society is valid. you know what the user needs is actually flesh selection, but these, even, this is not going to ensure that they go through. and, but the reason is that the plan for the future does up the one thing. what the plans of the fall. all right, i think the international community won't allow me to push to point the other students out those guys us if and it's new and i think they see serious about it.

it's, it's about what you say about 2 state solution and the c side. it needs to be next week. and yet the international community has allowed more than nearly 20 to policy and in 22000 palestinian people to have been killed. 2 thirds of them, women and children. mister craig, let me bring you in to talk about what has been achieved and this nearly 3 months of unprecedented attacks on the gaza strip before you know, any new phase, as well as always, stays a bit as objectives are destroying hamas and bringing back the captives how do you think it's achieved any pos of those objectives to no, not really a nice thing from the, from the onset when these, these objectives were states that it became clear for most and the less military analyst and strategic alice, in particular to say the strategy is not achievable is not a sustainable and the west part of it is only slow to will that killing all that

destruction that we've seen across the gulf. the strip has come very much in vain because what has been achieved is very little. and what these really is on not realizing and they should have realized they should have known intelligent should've known off of the setting of october, is that there is a city beneath the city. so they have leveled and flattened the entire part of the urban area, overground of gauze, the city. but now i haven't really moved forward in into the underground well. and then now saying that hospitals, the tunnels there, you know, we knew that there was a city beneath the city and that fight which was always going to be the most difficult. one is the one that you contacted from the as the one where you need to send infantry. and this tunnel system is still intact, largely intact the fact that they haven't really decapitated how much, which is what they wanted to achieve. they haven't found the leaders that they were looking for, also suggest that they haven't made much progress on that front. we still see on the news news if we saw rockets being fired into, into a central israel from the gaza strip, despite the fact that most of the territories actually been occupied now by the idea of they haven't released the hostages again,

that is the only way you can release dosages through negotiation, how much has put a lots of different proposals on the table that baby baby net to now has refused to accept and, and how much remains operates opperation or, and my point being and that remains the same over the last 2 months is if you want to find an idea like homeless, if you want to fight resistance, if this is what you're trying to be mobilized, then what you need to do is you need to offer a social and political alternative. israel has offered absolutely nothing, nothing in terms of a strategy, nothing in terms of an ad, nothing to an alternative to the palestinian people that they can embrace on the screen when andras of this future while the women dress creek speaks about the absolutely limited achievements of the israeli military against him, off against it's expensive ton and that's was militarily, what kind of impact has this will had on a mazda is a political movement? i think it's, it's, uh, i think we should be back and really question this idea that a city can be

a target, a city can't be a target and what we're hearing, what i heard is that, you know, it's ok in many ways to just simply wipe out cities because they haven't yet achieved their targets. i know that's not exactly what he was saying, but if you read between the lines, this is what many of the, unless have been saying. and i think that it's very important that we step back for that. and really question this idea, the israel gets to achieve card loss that it can do whatever it wants and, and carry out whatever it wants to carry out. because there's something called him us that said, if you asked me about warehouses standing there, i can tell you that people are very much supportive of the, of anybody who's gonna stand in the, in the way between them and their annihilation. and right now is real. that's doing the annihilating and is how much that is trying to protect costs and hands from being wiped off the map. and so you have seen a rise in support for him at us because we haven't seen that anybody around the world is coming to the defense of palestinians are trying to protect. house city is

quite to the contrary. people are tired turn talking about was ok to target school, so it's ok to target hospitals. house ok to target a total infrastructure, and that's not at all. we have cnn. let's suppose that we've seen at the searching at the united nations within the general assembly within the security council. the majority of people want to protect palestinian civilians and they're saying that as well as operation is mostly, okay. if the u. s. that has been blocking resolutions, calling for a sci fi, the racks, but then we also have not seen a mass mobilization of international can countries particular from the west who actually put into product plays measures to stop israel all the we've seen as one leader after another come forward and give is we all the greenness of green lights and that is why the united states fuel so in bold, it to continue to do so. this is, this is an issue of genocide and it's up to the world to stop genocide. this is what the international legal system was developed for,

was to precisely stop genocide and right now the only country that i've seen step forward and try to push for an end to the south africa through the filing of the case before the international court of justice. and israel has said that it will respond to that case that it is going to contest this case both by south africa as a lawyer. how do you assess the case of genocide against as well and do thing the cases such as this impacts what it does on the battlefield? even allegations. yes. so in terms of whether a claim can be made yes, very easily because there's 2 components to genocide. one is the actions which we've seen been carried out in every i described, doesn't m, i co, a co palace of also describes them. but there's also the intent. and the intense is usually the most difficult part to achieve. and yet here we've seen that is really liter after is rarely liter, whether that includes the minister of defense, the president himself or the prime minister, has made statements that are genocide and it's the genocidal statements coupled

with the options that we've seen on the ground that can easily make the case of genocide and this is where the international legal system has been brought into place. the whole system was designed as a system to prevent the grossest of grosses atrocities. and genocide is the most gross of the atrocities that can be perpetrated. this is why say that it's up to the world community to put into place action to stop israel. will it affect people on the ground? i certainly hope so. and if it doesn't, this is why we also see that people are putting forward claims against the individual officers themselves. the individual people made these orders themselves, so they to can be brought before the international. i'm of course, the semester. but if you've heard what under s creek, what deanna booths, who have said that the nearly 3 months of israel's attacks on gaza, they haven't deterred him on some of the tally. they haven't defeated them politically. what are the conversations that that is really will cabinet is having

at the moment about what they're going to do next is wally will cabinet united and their approach would i see the difference in having it no doubt about it? i think the total points here, why is that? is that i to evaluate as to what they've been saying. so this is all divides ready to respond to this and, and beginning off of more than 20000 people in government, most of them civilians, the statute, the station closing does up and i think once and so long as it has to be a good condition, there is no military solution, so these are the same company that he's on, that he's on 40 different laws and now you're covering the views that see the law should continue for. ready either even the, even to molly low intensity mall and, and what they said to refine the dealership off of home us, is using the military. incompatibility was the low and the ends of the days during these pushing molly mo,

paper the to the ends of all of the because because it doesn't say it doesn't said also hopefully by listening to it doesn't say that this will end in a peaceful solution. can be different mortalities, but the end of the day it's only the police because solution and the account easily cause is noticing that best if he's been living in the police, the best solution to just so minutes other actually took place and this is not even within that military prison does problem is the mess and yahoo and defense minister gallano are they on this on the same page about what the next phase of the wall looks like. some of the tally. ready the distances and some of them actually moved to move the walls to the nose now and then moving some guys. and as you can get for a long while, we believe is by line to knows before sir, this is, this is a priority because you said it was close by surprise because you're using it for the to go tell more and it was,

we saw it on the decision by the supreme codes only only yesterday. so they look for most of the solutions this different people have different into this and they always interest the same powers, imaginary because if you scroll options i, i go to so, so it him really to please. and he believes that that's how much can be destroyed. understanding that's a must, is also for the coming. they do not. you can't move it. so it's you, you can make to dealership by offering in the queue. and then you'll scroll sticks new file like that that look into into, into expanding, understands by the but also that expression of the west bank and expanding probably by the seem 0 to. so yes you are, you ever defined describing it to different views, but what distracted you and mr. craig, mr. michael, but touched on what's happening on israel's no, the northern border with lebanon is fairly. officials have also said that one of

the reasons for pulling out the troops from gaza is to free up uh, soldiers for what could happen on the northern border. do you think they are preparing for an escalation against his bullet in the? no, no, i think it would be extremely stupid of israel. i mean, they've made a lot of strategic mistakes and obviously a lot of miscalculations over the last couple of months at. but this would be a strategic miscalculation that i would think would bring israel to the what the edge of a military collapse. the fact that the mags are putting some a veterans out as well suggest that they don't thing that this escalation is on the books is really is already very much booked on what's going on. and goals are they come to for another from an affront with hezbollah. is going to be much worse than anything we've seen from her mazda. the brook is that could be fired from southern women across the territory of israel, with much bigger will. head would destroy as real. and it would be something that the, the, the, the population is i would not be willing to sustain and was supposed to. i could see you smiling earlier when andras creek began to say that he doesn't think as well is preparing for an escalation in the know. what do you think?

i and it, you know, i was solid because he said the israel has made some very strategic errors and i would say yes they have, but i very much agree. they made a number of strategic errors, but i think it's also what israel is doing. the arrows that they've made are strategic, not in the way that many people are thinking of it, but in a, in a totally different way. i think that the way that is real has laid out this war in these number of phases is really just a ruse. and it's just try to distract people from what it's what it is intentionally trying to do, which is to carry out ethnic cleansing of the gaza strip and carry out genocide. but the strategic error i think, is the fact that they have gone into the gaza strip and somehow expected that there wasn't going to be any resistance there is. and they will, they may also foolishly try to go into 11 on and somehow expect that there isn't going to be resistance. there will be any place where, where israel, who believes that it can somehow go in and steal more or less. it will always be

met with resistance and as well as that. and mr. james, our former advisor to the palestine liberation organization. you've taken part in very high level negotiations before what would you be advising palestinian political factions now or the i think is we have to be aware of where we are in this today. and it's very difficult to talk about tomorrow without being able to actually see what the gaza strip is going to look like. and what it looks like today. i haven't been able to get in and, and millions of other palestinians have not been able to get into the gaza strip either. so it's impossible to talk about future staffs without knowing what kinds of looks like today. that's it. i think that we do have to be weird, very well aware that that helps anyone's needs to be the ones who decide their future. we can, we can no longer live in a system where it's israel, who gets to decide israel gets to determine the international community, gets to determine. we're now in the year 2024 and, and palestinians deserve the,

their freedom. and we have a right to self determination. if anything, we must continue to insist that any, anything that happens in the west bank that is past or and, and gaza strip. it's palestinians who decide not is rarely to decide. and that we finally finally finally be given our freedom to to own of august. that is andras creek in london, deanna bu to in hi fi and you'll see macro, but also in london and sent you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, alj a 0 dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x a handle this at a inside story for me, elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now the using music and as a form of resistance during the boss. and you're in the ninety's actress and mean

the most interesting forms for children. and sorry about each for many people's names. it is very easy to empathize with the people of gods. less than a month ago was changed to performance and we quoted pain and cut out. i felt not just duty, but an enormous desire to raise awareness about toward garza. either both the enact or is joined an initiative by the asked or theater, a non profit, public opinion, ensemble base and come out of luck. as the people who survived on the side who survived the siege will survive the aggression. i think that our obligation to be the people will always be the 1st for a 0 voice. i'm standing in front of the saturday of a city hall, a well known monuments burns down in the water. it's been renovated just like the rest of the city, but the psychological scars of the war are self visible here. power defines how well we live. here we make the rule, not the people empower, investigate,

expose the questions they use and abuse of power around that go on out there. and on the federal tax upfront takes on the big issue. that is a context to what is happening now. it to the school. thanks. question. about 5 unflinching questions. rigorous the bank that he added to 2 days, the another cleansing is taking place. augusta. nothing goes into gauze and without us of permission, nothing leads about that. without the girls permission, allow me to push back for a moment, demanding a ceasefire, demanding an end to the root causes of all of this violence upfront. without the the, the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the hello until mccrae. this is and use our line from coming up in the next 60 minutes . hello cindy in groups and living rooms has belong balance to respond to send you a mazda official. so i'll really is assess the night in a drawing striking favorites. fellow citizens have been demonstrating across the occupied with bank following who