immune from prosecution, patty cole, henry forced from washington another trip to the d. c. courthouse for former president donald trump, facing for felony charges for attempting to overturn the 2020 election. his attorney is trying to convince 3 appellate judges, that he is immune from prosecution. because although he wasn't pitched over his actions on january 6th, he was not convicted by the us senate. the judges seemed skeptical. and the yes no, yes or no question. could have the president to ordered still, team steps to assassinate a political bible, was not in peach. p. be subject to criminal prosecution if he were impeached and conducted. first, as the answer is, is, oh, my answer is qualified. yes, prosecutor called that extraordinarily frightening, arguing it would allow future presidents to commit a raft of crimes. and in fact, during the senate impeachment, trial trumps own lawyers argue that he shouldn't be impeached because he could

later recharged and some senators agreed. we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation, and former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either want. trump didn't need to appear in person, but he has been able to use his court cases to increase his fundraising by claiming he's being politically persecuted. if this is the way i try to weigh presses, whatever the appeals court decides, it will likely be appealed to the us supreme court and some legal and will say that is likely the point. trump is absolutely trying to drag this out as long as possible in the hope that if he's elected, he can make all of this go away. if you were to be elected, all the prosecutions would immediately stop because there is case law providing that you can't prosecute, that you can't have a criminal trial of a sitting president. now the outcome of this case is significant,

not just for donald trump and his future, but for the presidential election. in a recent poll, 24 percent of his supporters said that if he is convicted in this case, his name should not be on the ballot in a close election. a number that big could matter. patty, go ahead. l g 0. washington. 2023 has been confirmed as of wells. how to see it on record. the use climate agency says it was caused by compet emissions and the e. l e. the i knew a weather event. they say it was likely to have been the womans here in the last 100000 years. as the news for now on, ouch is here. i'll be back with one use right after counting the cost to stay with us on out just here the we know what's happened in irish and we know has to get some places that others

tend on fear god, by that on purpose. the way that you tell the story is what can make a difference. the nicholas, this is counter, the goal is to now to 0. we can look at the world of business, and this week the world is drowning in a rec, what amount of debt un, who owns the crushing crisis, is most prevalent in developing nations. also this week africa spends more money on servicing depth and on educational health care is lead is demand to reform with a global financial system. plus on the brink of default,

the list of nations seeking debt restructuring is really there's to blame for the delay. and really psych level data is hits a record of $307.00 trillion dollars in 2023. and that includes the amount of money owed by corporations, governments and individuals right around the world. and it is equivalent to almost $40000.00 for every single person on the planet. multiple crises in recent years has worse than the problem. pushing country to the brink, and that simply means some of the poorest countries in the world servicing that that's instead of providing for that people. some city points, the 1000000000 people, almost off of humanity, leaving countries that spend the model depth interest payments then on education or health us. and yet, because most of these and sustainable depths,

i've gotten that i do the import of countries, they are not judge to pose a systemic risk to the global financial system. this is, i mean, the city point, city 1000000000 people, is more than a systemic risk. it's a systemic failure and trying to get there as well because with 19 percent that make the cost of living crisis, climate change. any impact of natural disasters have all contributed to the search in government borrowing. indeed, a report by the you in the global crisis response group says the world wide public debt reach $92.00 trillion us dollars last year. that's more than a 5 fold increase since the year 2000. as the result, borrowing as outpaced global g d p growth, which tripled over the same time. and most of the public debt crisis is concentrated in developing countries in the past decade as being an increase of the number of countries facing high levels of debt from 22 nations to 59. last year of

these 52 nations sol nights, 40 percent of the developing world are in serious debt trouble. according to the international monetary fund, countries, lights for lank, gone. if you, if you unpack a stone, have already defaulted, or are likely to do, say, all countries mainly borrowed from the international monetary fund, all the world bank. i may repay the money with interest and when they called, they risk being cuts off from credit by international financial institutions or private investors. as a bro, again, they have to agree to a deal to restructure the debts and limit spending. and that's all for legislation on rest. for example, in 2010 greece is i am a bailout plan that included will start the measures was met with massive practice or let's take this on from london. joining me is greg swenson, a greg is the founding partner at the merchant bank of brick, my kind of break, welcome to counting the costs. so 1st up,

why has the weld reached this record amount of days? hey, nick, it's, there's a probably a bunch of contributing reasons, but i think the most obvious isn't just in the last few years where you've had 2 major issues. one is you had really reckless funding during and after the pandemic, even after many recoveries had any, many economies had recovered and they continued, especially here in the us, in the us and u. k. that continued with really exorbitant spending. and that's created a so much excess that from deficit spending the 2nd issue, especially in the us. but even here in the u. k, you have some excessive spending on green energy projects which don't actually contribute to productivity in the country. all it does is add to the balance sheet without contributing or creating more products for people to spend. so it's to, to buy. so it's basically inflationary button all done with deficit spending. so

those are the 2 major contributor contributors. and now the both developing and developed countries have to figure out how to pay it back. right. so obviously a big problem for pull developing nations, but what kind of issues does it grateful originations this kind of that? well, i mean, 1st of all, the richer nations traditionally have been able to carry that, especially in the us because it's the reserve currency and you're able to carry, continue with deficit spending and carry account deficits. but the less lower and lower income for developing countries don't have that luxury. so i think it has to start with the, with the larger economies, it has to start with the us and u. k. and western europe. but, but it has to and ultimately a d o dependent somewhat on, on the developing kind of countries as well. so it's got to be both, but it's got to be lead with the larger economies we heard of, of you and talk you genuine kind of good parents talking about the risk of unsustainable debt. so what kind of risk of that as well, yeah,

but the most obvious is, is a sturdy, if they can't service the debt, or if the i am a for world bank forces these developing countries to, to cut spending. and these are countries where the people are really dependent on food subsidies or even to direct food deliveries. so if you look at countries like there's 4 african for an age of the larger ones in africa and nigeria and kenya and in asia, it's the philippines. and pakistan high population countries were over 40 percent of income is spent on food. so if there is austerity, if there is inflation, which is basically a tax on these consumers. and they're already spending a considerable amount of their, their income on food that's going to lead to social in rest. we. we saw that 10 years ago, the arabs spring in north africa. we could very well see it again in these countries that are spent where the consumers, the people are spending, consider considerable amounts of their income and food. so he's got a point,

i think the developing countries are, or where the, the risk really is. i'm social unrest due to us dirty on debt service. it won't happen in the larger economies. but it's really a shame because the, you know, some much of the borrowing has happened in the last few years without any real productive results from that borrowing. and so it's, it's a shame that, that, that many people are going to suffer in age and after its sub saharan african. right. and so we have, does it extraordinary crisis, but it, is it even manageable? i think it is. i think ultimately it is, you know, you're going to have some workouts. you're going to have some restructuring, restructurings. i think what really has to happen again, beginning with the bigger economies. the larger economies in the west is cutting spending and in the larger economies can do that. some of the developing economies have trouble cutting spending because it's, it's, it's food and health care and education for their economies. that they're much more

dependent on government spending, but austerity in the west is different than austerity in the global south. so cut spending in the west. the 2nd is to liberate the supply side. then that's there has been such hostility to the private sector. so which is in effect inflationary and ultimately creates more deficit spending and more overall debt level. so you know that the supply side has to be liberated. so there's that we have lower jet, we have lower rates, more products are produced. that brings down inflation. it also creates economic growth, which therefore creates tax receipts or higher tax receipts. so the best way to, to pay back debt is deliberate. the private sector in, in both developing and developed economies, right. a given the interest payments that are often bigger than the overall spending on say helpful education. yeah. how feasible is it for, for lenders to pose that or even just to write it off? i think there's going to have to be some right offs we've. we saw that in sub

saharan africa and in the last few years, i think there's going to have to be some restructuring as you see it, even in eastern europe. and in small economies like montenegro, where you have large borrowings from the chinese of those, those debt service or interest payment holidays are ending. it's going to make it very difficult for smaller economy. so there has to be workouts, that's for sure. but i think we also have to consider that, you know, and again, in the larger economies, cut back on spending focus on creating economic growth that will create more tax receipts. there's a lot of talk about a reform of the global financial system. do you think that could happen? i think ultimately there has to be some reforms around the edges. i don't think there could be some major restructuring of the system. you know, you're, so you'll probably see less dependency on the us dollar with, you know, with oil trading and different currencies. you might see a shift to the global self as, as your population grows in sub saharan africa and asia and the middle east, north africa with very little popular ation growth and in the western europe as

well as in the united states. so, you know, there, there might be some shift based on movements of a people and a different population, different demographics. i think you also have to look at china and they have a major property problem. so this, the sub saharan african latin america are going to be less dependent and have to be less dependent on china because they just don't have the money to, to continue with the belt and road initiative. due to the fact that they've got debt problems at home. so i think that's something we all have to think about. right. oh, interesting stuff. great. good. appreciate that greg sprencel never much like next week. good to be here. well, of the $52.00 low and middle income countries, dealing with unsustainable debt, $23.00 are in africa via became the 1st african country to the fulton itself in debt. and that was during the code 19 pandemic in 2020 china or is a significant credits of the countries infrastructure projects. loans with high

interest rates have restricted the government's ability to invest in social programs and infrastructure developments. but zambia has become a test case for potential defaults. as of the months of talks is lenders including china and the paris club agreed to restructure $6300000000.00 of them. these loans in june, southern african country will pay about $750000000.00 in the next decade. that is, instead of owned by $6000000000.00 that was due before the debt restructuring. the nation is mean to go see, i think some of the deals with private credits is a new and report says, on average, african nations borrow at a cost 4 times higher than that for the united states. and 8 times higher than that for the wealthiest european economies us from going as capital that chrome join now by daniel evans i, i'm him, he's the lead consultants that didn't any banks management and the chief economist, that the policy initiative for economic development in africa. daniel,

welcome. so 1st, why all african countries trapped in this vicious cycle lived it very much in the uh, we just dropping in the network is been doing uh, maybe a whole historic or a, a dizzy didn't we use all. i was good to be a as the queues leasing the volumes either on to is the be so as a mover, i cannot make it to the shop. i think the resources you sent it to the buyer. so you bought the 2nd without your saw more of a lot of the oh well why don't you know, i forgot the really little bit of color thing to see. i need to buy

a product. so it is honestly the result too. so that's the run of about a period. and the reason is we do not have in the bottom to cancel legally. the savings is to be able to, i said the people, the color says the dental cv all the way. it doesn't need the full coverage. i'm guessing the or something, or the midship what they thought is wrong or what, what doesn't help is the high level, the massive levels of interest to me. i would really say it was the full time to live and not for the united states at 8 times high. the not for the wealth is european economies interest rates. how is that ever come to be? yes, it is quite difficult. and just like i think you just, if you did all the on your own, you'd be the movie,

like i said, when you needed a copy, the market is a blue moon, which is due by the variance section in the model. the guy comes, i'll see that this is within the going for the money and the to the discussion of mrs. low, the bottom was the frequency. the money comes into the oh, the, the rest of this all the way to move some of the consumption, the resolution you don't need is, and there is a wage. it's becoming the horses that there's a lot there. so while you needed the money at the local rate, you might after this off of this and then to the doctor when the,

in the recession, the so the nations have to services these massive rates of, of interest. how does that impacts their ability to develop some of the development and the levels is by the high on the news because of the law, the rest of the, on the living, the citizens. i used to say this uh for your patients, the vision in the who into our way. sure. the people from moment to all we minimize the use of is this also that higher point in the last uh you gotta say a model and the more

deliberate is all the practice that got to be able to send that job and then the rest and then that's what you need as far as it is, the recreational center. hi, i'm talking about the most up because i will. i don't your briefly what, what do you make of accusations against china that pushing african nations with that truck? yes, all the is sort of simple. the result of deposition, because the law, the icon on the need are results immediately swell industrialization. so the model is less comfortable for god and it works like a salt in, in the show the we, we, we, we take all the law just give the right links to way particular recalls. the recall we were looking for the 3 b as in to get the same. most of the guys on

the new way. we know how to simulate model by the west, and then you get a lot of tv. i, these china guys, you know, really gives you the model, is that a lot of people that are smart of china, of this and the reason i do not to insure okay so that they have different results on the computer. i would love the continued the top is the best friday just upfront. uh, i need to, i need to change it to the delivery point is the you would be a slug at the microsoft. there's lots of lots that are all right, daniel, appreciate that. thanks so much for joining us here on calendar because this daniel, i'm gonna tell you, i'm thank the now developing countries. a chinese land is more than

a trillion dollars. that's according to research lab. 8 data and overdue 11 repayments, the soaring china has a much, is the largest global bi lateral credit to in the past decade. it is in fact, catching up with the i m f and the world bank and is exceeding of the government says the official linda to the developing world. beijing has replace washington and bailing out low and middle income countries, or china has less massive sums to several countries across asia, africa, and europe is part of the global infrastructure project, the belt and road initiative. but many nations are struggling to repay and face economic instability, and they're on the verge of collapse. the us blames beijing for pushing them to the bring china put the responsibility on us lead financial institutions. we're trying to has been reluctant to cancel large liabilities, owed by countries struggling to make ends meet. a data says that 80 percent of

aging is lending portfolio in the developing world is now supporting nations in debt distress. a china is also dealing with trillions of dollars owed by its own local governments, the financial affiliates, and real estate development. well, joining me now in all students, i'm pleased to say here at the hearts it shows you there's a visiting fellow at the london school of economics and a senior practitioner fellow with the center at harvard kennedy school joining welcome at. so 1st up, what do you make of these accusations against china or chinese loans to developing countries that truck oh, those statistics who quoted make are compelling. however, i would say it is a bit misleading to call it a that trap for what china has gone to the developing world. china alone, so 20 percent of the debt to african. so solving nations, the other 80 percent are low in spite of multilateral institutions. in national financial entities, countries such as the united states, some you countries, turkey, india, japan, etc. so if you call the 20 percent the china loan, so africa,

if that trap, then i wonder, what do you make off the other 80 percent that are collectively loans by all the other entities to africa. china is long me over to $1000000.00 situations to the developing world, many of them in the far reaching regions of the world. and many of them are run by liberal and the non democratic regina. and so overnight and political systems could change. we saw a wave of quotes in west africa, we saw political system change, you know, been as well. so none of these is an assurance to china in terms of the ownership guarantee or a loan guarantee, in terms of, you know, protecting china's overseas interest. so use of major strategic vulnerability for china, but when it comes to the debt relief, effort estimation says 2021. china relief to 23. i frequent country state and in

2022. china has successfully helped gonna restructure. he's that good be turning those approaches work to try and china or is it the forefront to try to do something about it? you recognize it's not down to the west of lending institutions. it's a black, a chinese trying to do, or would con, and i should say that it is not out out of altruism either because it is indeed and tried his interest. that'd be so over a $140000000000.00 of debt to china. loans to africa does not go into default. however, i don't think we should use a plain game here because the reality is that africa in particular has been shot out of the global modernity. by not being offered sufficient to capital funding for the past 4 or 5 centuries. this is the moment where the west and china should join hands in providing massive capital infrastructure building to the roles and these, the developed nations. no country should be shot out of the world with modernity and economic prosperity for a matter, for lack of financing. of course,

china itself has its own law, so that program business. so how does it benefit from lending money to other nations at the scale? so if you look at the folder wrote a new should, if this is the times, here's the over the past decade, the china has really been escalating. it's a both the still mastic or capabilities as well it's, it's so expansion off it's investment capacity globally. and so i think the investment within is you still master capacity, and these overseas investment capability are coordinated. so at the beginning of the bought a road initiative for china has been building a lot of fiscal infrastructure. we always rhodes ports, etc. and of course, those are important because without the fiscal infrastructure, we cannot start to talk about trade jobs, growth, or economic opportunities. and next, the china started to build digital infrastructure from somewhere in cable networks to telecomm infrastructure base stations, cloud success. so those are conducive to the rise of the additional economy in

these developing countries. and then after coal there, we started to see china moving massively into green energy building social enterprises, public health care building, etc. so a lot of the investments in the public goods area is going to help the developing countries in now moving towards environmental, sustain royalty. and he cannot mix this thing. and then as far as if he ever sees lessons are concerned, isn't china now shifting from shifting to providing emergency rescue lives to countries as opposed to the infrastructure projects you're talking about? absolutely, i think that really goes with a natural development pattern. so from the sending global power, if you were to look at the united kingdom in the 19th century or the united states in the 20th century, all of these are rising pars. they started by exporting labor. and then these countries became the export of capital. subsequently, the export of technology and subsequently the ex border of global rules and norms. and by using these to choose sions what we saw in the expenses to break summit back

in august. that is the start of china's efforts for the next, the phase off ability multilateral institutions to finance the developing world for the default. or do you think the, the debt crisis as a whole base in, shall enter in outside china or is manageable or is it a ticking time bomb? uh, uh, these are very complicated questions. uh, domestically speaking for china. the that issue is most of huge in the corporate sector and in the municipal government sector. so what the government is trying to do is to get to do stringent the due diligence in order to build a firewall to prevent the corporate financial stress from b, spelled over to the financial sector in order to prevent a systemic financial crisis. but try to does have a lot of fun levers, both in terms of monetary and fiscal policies in place, in the event of a severe economic calamity. and if we were to reflect on the 07,

the way to us centered to global financial crisis. the u. s has promised the 4 runs of 2. he's in order to provide a floor of liquidity to the financial system. china hasn't even begun to talk about your needs yet. so i think there are still a lot of policy room available to address some severe cataclysmic events in china will have to leave with the show. you great to have you in the studio head still, but it was thanks very much the thank you. thank you. well, that's all show you for this week. i did get in touch with us on that. excuse me, 9 is twitter. of course mic clocked out jobs and please do use the hash tag a c t c. when you do or just drops that e mail to the cost at out is there a dot net is our address, but it won't be online at out 0 dot com slash ccc. and that will take you straight to our page, which has individual reports linked some in tot episodes for you to catch up on that is it for this edition, have kind of the cost on the clock,

the whole team here. and so i. so joining us, the news on out 0 is coming up the a settled time upfront takes on the big issue, studies of post types to what's happening now. it says it's cool. thanks. questions about 5 unflinching questions. rigorous, the bank that he added to today is that another cleansing is taking place. augusta, nothing goes into gauze or without us of permission. nothing leaves profit without permission. allow me to push back for a moment, demanding of these fires, demanding an end to the root causes of all of this byron upfront. what outages here here's from i'll just say on the go and need tonight. out is there is only mobile app, is that the, this is where we just fix allies from out is there is

a mobile app available in your favorites apps to just set for it and typed on a new app from out to 0 new at you think is it the another night of horror for the people of guys is really a tax came an injured dozens off to a residential building is attacked in the play. you're watching l g 0, live from bill. how with me for these back people also coming up medical staff, i locks the hospital in guys a for c vacuum, a doctor is really bombardment, said the maternity and intensive k. you need us to.