notes these into japan for from the weather, brought to you by visit castle. the knowledge is here with the time the international court of justice force israel to stop its war on concept. south africa says that as well as of tax on the palestinians of genocidal at it's launching a legal battle with the you and it's top court. so when it's supposed to make any difference of who would enforce this, this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, israel as well on costs that has killed tens of thousands of palestinians and forced most of those from that homes. now it's going to have to onset the challenges of genocide in the course of little south africa is launching a case against israel at the international court of justice, the united nations highest legal body. well, a final ruling could be, is a way the i c j could baker provisional order as well, and it's kind of pain in a matter of weeks. so how significant would that be? and would it help to bring it in to the conflict? will go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st, since, and one of them has this report south africa is taking legal action in the international court of justice against israel for it's more on cause . it accuses the country of carrying out genocide. the collective punishment of

palestinian civilians through the under full use of force. but is it all is a war cry. the deliberate denial of medicine, few of food and water to the residents of gaza is time to mount to genocide and see him. but israel has vowed to defend itself in court, and the us has joined it in condemning the proceedings and given political and the legal cover to the october 7 masika and the hamas human field strategy. hop south africa has made itself criminally complicit with hamas. his campaign of genocide against the people, the submission against israel to the international court of justice distracts the world from all of these important efforts. and more over the charge of genocide is meritus, south africa submission accused israel of acting with intent to destroy in whole or

in parts of the policy and use in gaza. evidence includes the killing and displacement of large numbers of civilians destroying homes and enforcing a blockade on the central supplies, including food and water. icy j cases can go on for years. but south africa is asked the court to make it provisional ruling ordering israel to stop its military campaign. this could happen within weeks. but the court likes and enforcement mechanism, and israel could ignore it, the orders. yep. these really governments announcement that it will fight the case in court shows is taking the seriously international pressure has been building against israel's campaign and gaza. the backing of the i, c. j could further sway opinions both in israel and around the world. a fence and mullin ultra 0 for inside story. the full these areas could potentially be

a turning points in the international communities approach to as well as war on gaza. so let's bring in our guests to help explain and debate its importance from the hague. we're joined by i've heard of who, who's an international lawyer, a legal researcher, and advocacy officer. i'll talk about some leading palestinian human rights organization from london. we're joined by chris gunner as a full, a spokesman for unreal. the you an agency that provides relief to palestinians. he's lived through his rails previous was on garza and there was a thing or 2 about the international law on genocide and crimes against humanity and his role as director of the me a ma accountability project. and also in the hague, we're very pleased to have a drama dang back on the program. he's a distinguished expert on genocide. as the former you in special adviser on the prevention of genocide. he's also a special advisor to the office of the prosecutor for the international criminal court judge. but welcome to your ahmed. let's start with you. what does the law actually say about what constitutes genocide?

what will the i c, j take into consideration? in this case, a well dennis side is, is a legal term that is clearly defined and international law by the genocide convention and seminar the by the room associated with the international criminal court. and it's the genocide is committed when search and acts have taken place with the intent to destroy it in whole or in part a national or racial group. and, and the other cation of genocide and destruction in palestine have been made by several bodies, including you on experts, hundreds of genocide and how the costs of schoolers and several academies as well. so this is a different issue of genocide and it is applicable when these elements are met. and industry sion published in palestine. these seem to them to be met. that's why

the, the international court of justice has jurisdiction in this case. and we'll be looking into deciding on the provisional matchers that have been asked by south africa. it's chris hi, desktop alone is not enough to prove intent. a key elements and challenges of genocide. israel vehemently denies allegations of war crimes, claiming that the country is acting in self defense. how does south africa go about proving its accusations of genocide in this case? well, it's very clear. first of all, the humanitarian facts on the ground. there are full categories of actions by the israelis, the so that becomes a hybrid again on in the deck. complaints to the cool one is deliberate cuttings. well, 65, sorry, 23000 people have been killed that dropping 2000 pound bones in one of the most heavily populated parts of the world. as far as the 2nd category, which is causing a deliberate mental or bodily harm. and we're seeing huge amounts of

trauma, 80 percent of children, even before this war was showing heightened trauma. the bed resting, mute system suicidal. ideations were effecting 50 percent. and then you have the issue of imposing conditions of life design to destroy the group. i the impossible it old of its 355000 homes that 60 percent of the housing stock has been completely destroyed at 1900000. also 2300000 people have been displaced and very lossy. the 4th category, which the south africans are heading in on is an imposing conditions that prevent but it's now present show up a suppressed. and by about 30 percent, we've been struggling to find sanitary conditions in which they kind of give us.

and we've all seen the pictures of the empty maple clinics and hospitals, which themselves are being bones and destroyed and stuffed of a fuel. as far as intentionality is concerned, which is the 2nd part of your question. adrian, what we're seeing is the prime minister on 2 occasions and voting the biblical. i'm a look a genocide injunction from god leave know women men, babies, statements old. the school said, we've seen the defense minister, you of color took about the complete blockade. no fuels, no water, no food. we even had a muse reported by the jerusalem post of local officials. i'm talking about 10 and gaza into something that looks like our fits. we've had took about an eruption style. but we've had his way to cabinet ministers, old in a comment withdrawal and that talked about dropping and youtube home, which by the way, does these confirm that the most far right government in the history of israel actually possesses a new cable. and so as far as the humanitarian facts on the ground,

and the question of intentionality is concerned, i think south africa has a, a very strong case, ms. osmond said many genocides and hold a cost scholars including his rabies and jewish scholars, have confirmed that this is quite a text book genocide. dang. while the c j is decisions are legally binding and con, be appealed. the court doesn't have its own ability to enforce ruling site responsibility lies with the the un security council. and are you convinced that south africa has a solid case? and what happens if israel ignores any judgement that goes against it? well, i should say 1st of all that uh this is that righty a historic moment. uh because of we are happening tomorrow. the case the hearing by the code and both stuff that forgot and just try and

we'll be making the points. but i what, what, what i want to say is that i'm really grateful to stop suffolk out for having taken this case. why? because it is about convention or, and the vacation vend genocide, ease of responsibility, which for both of us. and most importantly, to those states body put in 1948 genocide convention. and i would say that even based on, on the customer to so low that even those 5 enough for good fight about been to defend the 2nd crime, this most part of this kind of, to boca now the question these and i think uh quickly and yeah, made of quite the most difficult element to

evidence is the intent. and of course uh it been a long time to get the evidence. but yeah, my main concern is what can we do to make sure that what is happening and our eyes can print and i'm not totally fine because it wouldn't it wouldn't be for the quote based on the evidence which had broad before it by south africa based on the observation and audit elements made by just try and make the point. let's not forget that even beside lots of time or so choose a to have most of committing genocide. but we have to be very careful using the g world e something that series and we should not really use it

lively. but in the case of gaza and what we have seen the electricity got. what do you have seen what to being the not also being kept maybe good facilities and people being displace. so 1 may but the question i read facing the risk of genocide in gaza and because of the worst speaking about the breeze, the case is very important. i'm not saying that there is a general side, which is because i know as i say this, what i did on mine by a god of justice. that's really by asking those dates which have been for us to use that in the fields, prevent this guy to ok. all right. all right. do you want to pick up on,

on, on what i've done, what we're saying, the, how important is historical context to south africa's application. and what's at stake here in terms of the credibility of these, the international legal system. you know, it is absolutely important not only the history of, of south africa as country that understands what's going on in palestine, but also that genocide and as a crime is not something that is completely alien to sup, local. in your readings, colonialism is guilty of genocide and other places around the world. as matter of fact. and most of the colonial routines arguing this idol by, by nature they are inherently the genocidal and south africa as a country that suffered such located on and is himself for an upper tide. understands this very well, but not, not only that south africa's application and it states that it is also important to

police. is there any acts of genocide in the product or context of is rose conduct towards the palestinians during the past 75 years of apartheid. and the 56 year long, belligerent occupation of the can bypass and transfer it is, this is the longest situation of modern history, which includes also 6 over 16 years long. uh be okay, self. okay. thing uh, closure of the gaza strip. where is there all has been counting to calorie intake. the palestinians need even before this escalation, which and also the deal. and also talked about this in the report in 2012 saying that god. so we'd be on livable by 2020 or 3 years past past that with a indiscriminate compartment and with no work to go, no. where is it safe? so the, the fact that there is a negation of genocide and gaza is not quite surprising because these are this

govern by it's a racist, sits low colonial ideology that is zion isn't that the world has decided for decades that it's a form of racism and racial discrimination until 1991. when this resolution was revolt, us to offer as our conditions as server code or vocation to come to the negotiating table and demetri conference for peace. so it wasn't for both because scientists and stopped being racism because israel condition and certification on coming to magic. so you see israel is, is there, i was governing ideology. zionism is inherently racist, is inherently genocidal. and if, if you look at the history of the statements made by israeli, and scientists leader since the establishment of israel, they were also genocidal. this is not new rhetoric. this has been always there. chris, i know you want to come in the and i just wanted to say i meant to pick up on the

question of using the g would very likely let's be clear since the 7th of october, counseling is really politicians, including the prime minister, the defense minister cabinet ministers, members of the ideas and others have made it very clear that they all missing genocide. they have self insights, it in public, on numerous occasions. so all the court needs to do is look, use google that will tell you. the other thing i was was pick up on arguments points about historical context. roughly a limb kit, the man who in the 1940s claimed the term genocide to refer to the jewish experience in europe, was very clear that genocide is possible continue and. and in the case of the palestinians, this continuum goes back at least 2 as far as 1948 and the dispossession which has continued on a daily basis for the palestinians since 1948. as i said, since 1967, the palestinians have had that land occupied as well as imposed on the palestinians,

a system of apostate both in the west bank and gaza. and the, getting his awkward said this being a blockade, which is a collective punishment. it's a war crime, it's illegal on the international. and when the genocide convention told about imposing conditions of life calculated to destroy impulse or in the whole, the group it is precisely this kind of blockade. and this collective punishment that the convention is talking about. so while i understand the need for caution to fit your dishes caution, i would also say that the facts on the ground as reported by audra and other united agencies. now i'm from the history point, very clear the vice prime of face to evidence of genocide committed both on a historical basis. um now in the us it has plenty of confirmed and corroborated evidence of that. it's of course why, why would the you and then use the word genocide a well, that's a very,

very good question because what comes into play here is politics. and i stop suitable several, quite a few holes and garza including the last one in 2014 and in 2009 where we saw on the facilities of unrestored being killed in 2000. and 78 was the main warehouse in gauze of was destroyed. i mean, you went in your, you didn't, he even have the guts to press charges, compensation for the stalls. members killed. that was a decision for one. so i can see is a spokesman the injuries i'm not taking the on the ground by on but by new york. so it's, we have a bunch of we paid compensation of $10400000.00. there was no question of pressing charges for killing you. and member, soft humanitarian workers that was scorched politically. and that was the question of all the few staff members being killed. so how much great, so the political weight being put on on the un now, and i can tell you,

the americans controlled the department of political affairs in new york as always, an american, on the top of it. and what happens is that decision goes to the office of legal affairs, the departments of political affairs, on the secretary general's office. and that is huge american pressure even to stop that was being used. and let me tell you agent, this jewish as i called it jewish is ready to cancel culture or will some people out. so you should watch it per ton as a phrase that i did on many occasions. i wasn't allowed to use the a what the politic would until much later on. i'm so the g would, as a donald points out, is even more sensitive and i'll be even grace of political pressure. but let's be clear, the south african soup. i presented an excellent case pursue pub case and i think now one of the good things about this is the g was, will come into the international disclose to describe the contemporary product in inexperience. and we must never withdrawal from that because that is the reality in

the life. the pot of students in both garza and the west by it's a genocide. and let's be clear about what, what's going on of the you and you had your christmas description of, of, of what's, what he, you know, speaking from a full my insight as a point of view. but why was this this case left to south africa to bring white? why wasn't the you when championing it? well, what let, let me 1st say one thing. this is 1st and foremost, an obligation of the state bodies to defend the occurrence of the deal of the commission of get a site. and i should say that we have seen a case, which is the most security group that writing got it the time before this case really attracted the attention. we know the responsibility of the security council, and that's in the, at the time when i was special,

i price the on the good myself again aside, i sounded around and my eyes, the only time i would say i was maybe successful was in that case of something that's kind of good by where the commission of inquiry would be led by the stone concluded that it was really just as the been seen. and it was and we all know the boundary between ethnic cleansing and genocide. and what i would simply say is that the, i mean, i would, let's go to the extent of saying that this is un, uh, was afraid to use the key word. of course, when it comes to the, to mine. and that has been a position within the u. n. for a long time, due until the case is to dictate it before the court of

justice virg good to go to get these. we cannot say you have had funds in many time. some people who would use the word genocide when it comes to what happened to my side of 1915. i mean the story and courtney genocide, the subsidies. so say to just go to the dental side. but for the united nation, if it was i did, the guy did like been typing in that case, like the dental side of the season one and in 1994, then that would be use. and let's say that again myself. what is extremely important is to make sure, okay, that states back has been reminded of death of the case. and that is why i found this case extremely involved. and the, the, the drug test was, i'm sorry, i'm sorry to interrupt you. so the time that time is,

is pretty tied to you. i just wanted let, i'm not getting who shaking his head the on to. yeah, but, well i, i, i agree that the primary responsibility isn't states because they're parties of the convention. but the you and has a responsibility also to address the situation. so for example, mister adams was the, um, uh, the special adviser on the prevention of genocide. so such office such mandate is specifically to brisbin genocide. so when there is risk of genocide such office with issues statement, it's quite disgraceful. it's quite shameful that his critique, who's now in the office miss alice andrew too, until now didn't issue a statement on genocide. so how does he respond to that? if he was in office, he mentioned he was in the office and he issued a statement when it comes to writing, got rightly so. he did a great job. so what does he think about his his colleagues not issuing a statement. normally,

the only statement she issued at the beginning of this is probation only condemn the palestinians. and her own koenig critics of the un sent a letter of dixon to search in silence unbiased statements april. and it's quite difficult to cover the, the, the, the action of the un. there's no excuses for the, as i said, we're rapidly running out of time. so i'm sorry, i'll just throw that back quickly to adama a usually about 30 seconds to one. so that what i mean to me really i think uh, i meant i had, i'm in a position which is very difficult. i mean that too. uh uh, but what i can say, and i took that and made it very clear. the 9th of october, when i was leaving a conference in up, so i made it clear recently what getting the 28 uh, what is happening and the hour is but the next up the book and i somebody please that to the prosecutor of the i. c c cutting can and then tomorrow. ready we're

going to meet with the civil society, but it's not going to vision including i have, which as you may know, why i did when i was had a big test would consider which it was as one to 56. and did the wonderful, the way my good friend rises. rodney and i think this will be extremely important because he right, kevin had decided to put it as an urgency. okay. but now, you know, the investigation and the things which we put in the suite. okay. and in this less than the media, and that's why i find that's something that you would. okay. all right, let's, let's bring in chris. i've got about 2 minutes left on the program. chris just wanted to say to me, if i may pick up on this, um there are a 150 signatures to this convention where all the wise wishes to do that they have an organization to prevent genocide for the last 3 months. we've seen a slow motion, genocide, know what is takes on proper steps to prevented. so yes,

the un is dominated by matter puts on a huge political pressure, especially on the quest of even using the g. what we've seen them silenced as out there to set. but what about the member space there? a 150 cent interest? why they don't speak not to put him genocide. i wanted to ask you what, what we should make of the of the us just us. we saw our intentions report at the beginning of the program, not think about what i'm sleeping contains or well, i can tell you this. i'm going to realize the foot, and this was the great, less than perhaps the great take away from the 7th of october. that is where it will be condemned to live in a state of complaint in security, with the threats of most evans of october events, unless it is prepared to recognize that the best way to secure israel is to give the palestinians a functioning state to give them the self determination, the full people's oppressions especially oppressed peoples craves. they want their own state, they want a functioning economy, they want dignity if they want the accountability and they won't justice unimed till that is granted to the palestinians. the people of southern as well as

elsewhere in the region will be destined to live in a state of utter insecurity. i went on the march and onto the anti semitism march. i heard this cries, describe never again. but as far as i'm concerned, never again must be applied university. it must be applies to old people, including the palestinians. the gentleman, i'm afraid, we must to end the discussion manufacturing day to the will for taking pos alma before christ dentist. and i've done a dan, and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website. so i'll just 0. don't com. for further discussion, you can join us on our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash h, a inside story out. of course, you can join the conversation on x or handle that as a inside story from a for inside again. and the team here in the house will see you again, bye. for now the

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process, didn't you know, sort of during totes, with it's need a muslim to fax. hundreds of people gather in ramallah, supporting south africa's applications.