a here's from, i'll just say around on the go and need tonight out is there is only mobile app. is that the, this is where we, the effect from out is there is a mobile app available in your favorites apps to just set for it and typed on a new app from out to 0 new at you think? is it the kind of the international court of justice, force israel to stop it's war on concept? south africa says that as well as of tax on palestinians, a genocidal at it's launching a legal battle with the u. n's top port. so when it's verdict make any difference of who would enforce this. this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, israel as well on cost that has killed tens of thousands of palestinians and forced most of those from the homes. now it's going to have to onset the challenges of genocide in the course of little south africa is launching a case against israel at the international court of justice, the united nations highest legal body. well, a final ruling could be, is a way the i c, j could baker provisional order as well to end its campaign in a matter of weeks. so how significant would that be? and would it help to bring it in to the conflict? we'll go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st, since a lot of them has this report, south africa is taking legal action in the international court of justice against israel for it's more on gaza. it accuses the country of carrying out genocide. the collective punishment of palestinian civilians through the under full use of force

. it is it all is a wall, cried the deliberate denial of medicine. few of food and water to the residence of gaza is time to amount to general side. but israel has vowed to defend itself in court, and the us has joined it in condemning the proceedings and given political and the legal cover to the october 7 masika and the hamas human field strategy. hop south africa has made itself criminally complicit with hamas. his campaign of genocide against the people, the submission against israel to the international court of justice distracts the world from all of these important efforts. and moreover, the charge of genocide is meritus. south africa submission accused israel of acting with intent to destroy in whole or in parts of the policy and use in gaza. evidence includes the killing and displacement of large numbers of civilians destroying

homes and forcing a blockade on the central supplies, including food and water. icy j cases can go on for years. but south africa is asked the court to make it provisional ruling ordering israel to stop its military campaign. this could happen within weeks. but the court likes and enforcement mechanism, and israel could ignore it, the orders. yep. these really governments announcement that it will fight the case in court shows is taking the seriously international pressure has been building against israel's campaign and gaza. and the back of the i, c. j could further sway opinions both in israel and around the world. a vincent mullin which is 0 for inside story. the police areas could potentially be a turning point in the international communities approach to it as well as war on garza. so let's bring in our guests to help explain and debate its importance from

the hague. we're joined by after the other for who's an international lawyer, a legal researcher, and advocacy office of our hotspots, the leading palestinian human rights organization from london. we joined by chris gunner as a full, a spokesman for unreal. the u. an agency that provides relief to palestinians. he slipped through his rails previous was on garza and there was a thing or 2 about the international loan genocide and crimes against humanity. and his role as director of the me a ma accountability project. and also in the hague, we're very pleased to have a drama dang back on the program. he's a distinguished expert on genocide as the former you and special adviser on the prevention of genocide. he's also a special advisor to the office of the prosecutor for the international criminal court. gentleman, welcome to you. oh, and let's start with you. what does the law actually say about what constitutes genocide? what will the i c, j take into consideration in this case?

well dennis side is, is it a good time that is clearly defined and international by the genocide convention and seminar the by the room associated with the international criminal court. and it's the genocide is committed when search and acts have taken place with the intent to destroy it in whole or in part a national or racial group. and the location of genocide and destruction in palestine have been made by several bodies including you on experts. hundreds of genocide and how the costs of schoolers and several academies as well. so this is the definition of genocide and it is applicable when these elements are met and, and distortion problems in palestine. they seem to them to be met. that's why the, the international court of justice has a jurisdiction in this case. and we'll be looking into deciding on the provisional

matchers that have been asked by south africa. it's chris hi, desktop alone is not enough to prove intent. a key element in charges of genocide, israel vehemently denies allegations of war crimes, claiming that the country is acting in self defense. how does south africa go about proving its accusations of genocide in this case? well, it's very clear. first of all, the humanitarian facts on the ground, there are full categories of actions by the israelis that the south africans are headed again on in the deck. complaints to the cool one is deliberate cuttings. well, 65, a sorry, 23000 people have been killed that dropping 2000 pound bones in one of the most heavily populated parts of the world. as far as the 2nd category, which is causing a deliberate mental or bodily harm. if we're seeing a huge amount of trauma, 80 percent of children,

even before this war was showing heightened trauma, the bed resting, mute system, suicidal. ideations were affecting 50 percent. and then you have the issue of imposing conditions of life design to destroy the group. either impossible, it old of its 355000 homes that 60 percent of the housing stock has been completely destroyed at 1900000. also 2300000 people have been displaced and very lossy. the 4th category, which the south africans are heading in on is imposing conditions that prevent but now pretty much show up a suppressed. and by about 30 percent, we've been struggling to find sanitary conditions in which they kind of give us. and we've all seen the pictures of the n, t maple clinics and hospitals, which themselves are being bones and destroyed and stuffed of

a fuel. as far as intentionality is concerned, which is the 2nd part of your question. adrian, what we're seeing is the prime minister on 2 occasions and voting the biblical. i'm a let a genocide injunction from god leave know women and men based. they must all be slaughtered. we've seen the defense minister of color took about the complete blockade. no fuels, no water, no food. we've even had a muse reported by the jerusalem post of local officials. i'm talking about ted and gaza into something that looks like our fits. we've had took about an eruption style. but we've had his way to cabinet ministers, old in a comment withdrawal and that talked about dropping and youtube home, which by the way, does these confirm that the most far right government in the history of israel actually possesses a new cable. and so as far as the 2 monetary, in fax on the ground, i'm the question of intentionality is concerned. i think south africa has a,

a very strong case, ms. osmond said many genocide and holocaust scholars including his rabies and jewish scholars have confirmed that this is quite a text book genocide done at the end. while the i, c j is decisions are legally binding and con, be appealed. the court doesn't have its own ability to enforce ruling site responsibility lies with the the you and security council. are you convinced that south africa has a solid case? and what happens if israel ignores any judgement that goes against it? well, i should say 1st of all that uh this is that righty a historic moment. uh because of we are happening tomorrow. the case the hearing by the code and both stuff that forgot induced trial will be making that point. but i what, what, what i want to say is that i'm really grateful to stop septic up front having

taken this case. why? because it is about convention and that the vacation prevent genocide, ease of responsibility, which for both of us and most importantly, to those states body put an item for the dental side convention. and i would say that even based on the customer to some low. but if i'm do is fast enough, i could fight about it to defend the 2nd kind. this must part of this kind to boca now, the question these and i think uh quickly and yeah, made of quite the most difficult element to evidence is the intent. and of course uh it been

a long time to get the evidence. but yeah, my main concern is what can we do to make sure that what is happening and our eyes come twin bed? i'm not totally fine because it would, it would be for the quote, based on the evidence which had broad before it by south africa based on the observation and audit elements made by just try and make the point. let's not forget that even the site and i did time also at cheese that have most of committing genocide. we have to be very careful using the g world e something fat series. and we should not ready use it. likely . but in the case of guys and what we have

seen, the electricity got, what do you have seen what to being the not also being kept maybe good facilities and people being displace. so 1 may but the question i read facing the risk of genocide in gaza. and because of where speaking about the breeze, the this case is very important. i'm not saying that there is a genocide, which is because i know as i say this, what i did on mine by a god of justice that's really by asking those dates which have in for us to use that for young's vend describing to ok. all right, all right. do you want to pick up on, on, on what i've done, what we're saying,

the, how important is historical context to south africa's application. and what's at stake here in terms of the credibility of these, the international legal system. you know, it is absolutely important not only the history of, of south africa as country that understands what's going on in palestine, but also that genocide and as a crime is not something that is completely alien to sup, local. in your readings, colonialism is guilty of genocide in other places around the world. as matter of fact. and most accept the colonial routines argue, and the title by um, by nature they are inherently the genocidal and south africa is a country that suffered said located on and is himself for an apartheid. understands this very well, but not, not only that south africa's application and it states that it is also important to police. is there any acts of genocide in the product or context of is rose conduct

towards the palestinians during the past 75 years of apartheid. and the 56 year long, belligerent occupation of the can bypass the interest rate is this is the longest situation in modern history and which includes also 6 over 16 years long became self. okay. teen closure of the gaza strip, where israel has been counting to calorie intake. the palestinians need even before this escalation which and also the deal. and also talked about this in a report in 2012 saying the gaza would be on livable by 2020 or 3 years past past that with a indiscriminate compartment and with no where to go. nowhere is it safe. so the, the fact that there is a negation of genocide and guys, it's not quite surprising because these are this govern, bye. it's a races, sits low colonial ideology. that is,

zion isn't that the lord has decided for decades that it's a form of racism and racial discrimination until 1991. when this resolution was revolt, us to offer as our condition is true of a code or vocation to come to the negotiating table in demetri come for us for peace. so it wasn't for both because scientists and stopped being racism. but because israel condition and certification on coming to magic, so you see israel is, is there, i was governing ideology. zionism is inherently racist, is inherently genocidal. and if, if you look at the history of the statements made by israeli, and scientists leader since the establishment of israel, they were also genocidal. this is not new rhetoric. this has been always there. chris, i know you wanted to come in the i just wanted to say i meant to pick up on the question of using the g would very likely let's be clear since the 7th of october,

counseling is really politicians, including the prime minister, the defense minister cabinet ministers, members of the ideas and others have made it very clear that they all missing genocide. they have self and cited in public on numerous occasions. so all the court needs to do is look, use google that will tell you. the other thing i was was pick up on arguments points about historical context. roughly a limb kit. and the man who in the 1940s claimed the term genocide to refer to the jewish experience in europe, was very clear that genocide is possible continue and. and in the case of the palestinians, this continuum goes back at least 2 as far as 1948 and the dispossession which has continued on a daily basis for the palestinians since 1948. as i said, since 1967, the palestinians have had that land occupied as well as imposed on the palestinians, a system of a policy, both in the west bank and gaza. and again, as often said,

this being a blockade, which is a collective punishment. it's a war crime, it's illegal on the international. and when the genocide convention told about imposing conditions of life calculated to destroy impulse or in the whole, the group it is precisely this kind of blockade. and this collective punishment that the convention is talking about. so while i understand the need for caution fits your dishes caution, i would also say that the facts on the ground as reported by audra and other united agencies. now i'm through history point very clearly by is prime of face to evidence of genocide committed both on a historical basis. um now on the us who has plenty of confirmed and corroborated evidence of that. it's of course why, why would the you and then use the word genocide as well. that's a very,

very good question because what comes into play here is politics. and i sat suitable several, quite a few holes and gaza, including the last one in 2014, and in 2009, where we saw under facilities an unrestored being killed in 2007, 84. the main warehouse in gauze of was destroyed and the you went in, you, you didn't, he even helps the gods to press charges, compensation for the stalls. members killed. that was a decision for one. so i can see is a spokesman the injury. so i'm not taking the on the ground by on, but by new york. so as well, the pen should be paid compensation of 10400000. there was no question of pressing charges for killing you. and member, soft humanitarian work is that was squashed politically, and that was the question of a few staff members being killed. so how much great, so the political weight being put on on the un now, and i can tell you, the americans controlled the department of political affairs in new york as boys

and americans on the top of it. and what happens is that decision goes to the office of legal affairs, the departments of political affairs, on the secretary general's office. and that is huge american pressure even to stop that would be in use. and let me tell you agent, this jewish as i called it, jewish is ready to come. so culture are, well, some people out. so you should watch it for ton as a phrase though i did on many occasions, i wasn't allowed to use the a what the policy would until much later on. and so the g would, as a donald points out, is even more sensitive and i'll be even grace of political pressure. but let's be clear, the south african separate representative, an excellent taste as to pub case. and i think not one of the good things about this is the g. what will come into the international disclose to describe the contemporary product in inexperience and we must never withdrawal from that because that is the reality in the lives potter. students in both garza, the west bank is

a genocide, and let's be clear. but donna, what's, what's going on at the u. n. a you, you had your christmas description of, of, of what's, what he, you know, speaking from a, a, a full my insight as a point of view. but why was this this case left to south africa to bring white? why wasn't you when championing it? well, what, let me, let me 1st say one thing. this is 1st and foremost, an obligation of the state bodies to defend the cards a big enough to do the commission of get a side. and i should say that to we have seen a case which is the most security group that writing got it the time before this case, really attracted that then should we go to know the responsibility of the security council and that's in the, at the time when i was visual, i price the under prevents of the genocide. i sounded around and mom i just,

the only time i would say i was maybe successful was in that case of something that's kind of good by where the commission of inquiry would be led by the stone computed that it was really just as the been seen and it was, and we all know the boundary between ethnic cleansing and genocide. and what i would simply say is that the, i mean i would, let's go to the extent of saying that because you n uh, was afraid to use, but t would of course, uh when it comes to, to mine. and that has been a position within the u. n. for a long time, due until the case is to dictate it before the code of justice virg the good, the good of guess these. we cannot say you have had funds in many time. some people

who would use the word genocide when it comes to what happened to my side of 1915. i mean distortion, courtney genocide, a subsidy. here's the thing to just call the dental side. but for the united nation, if it was i did, the guy did like typing in that case, like the dental side of the season one and in 1994, then that would be use. and let's say that again myself. here. what is extremely important is to make sure, okay, that stayed back as be reminded of death of the decent. and that is why i found this case extremely consult, and the rest of them have the data. the buttons on the drug test was i'm sorry that i'm sorry to interrupt you so time that time is, is pretty tied to you. i just wanted let to ahmed getting who shaking his head the

to yeah, but well i, i, i agree that the primary responsibility isn't states because they're parties of the convention, but the, you and has a responsibility also to address the situation. so for example, mister adams was the, um, uh, the special adviser on the prevention of genocide. so such, office such mandate is specifically to prevent genocide. so when there is risk of genocide such office with issues statement, it's quite disgraceful. it's quite shameful that his critique, who's now in the office miss alice andrew too, until now didn't issue a statement on genocide. so how does he respond to that? if he was an office, he mentioned he was an office and he issued a statement when it comes to writing, got rightly so. he did a great job. so what does he think about his his colleagues not issuing a statement. northley, the only statement she issued at the beginning of this collection only condemn the

palestinians and her own clinic. colleagues at the un sent a letter objected to such m. palance unbiased statements april. and it's quite difficult to cover the, the, the impaction of the un. there's no excuses for that. as i said, we're rapidly running out of time. so i'm sorry, i'll just throw that back quickly to adama a usually about 30 seconds to one. so that what i mean to me really, i think i have meds and i'm in a position which is very difficult. i mean that too. uh uh, but what i can say, and i took that and made it very clear as a 9th of october when i was leaving a conference invoke. so i made it clear recently what getting the 28 uh, what is happening and the out is but the next step, the book and i, somebody please that to the press agreed to of the i c. c cutting can and then tomorrow. ready we're going to meet with the civil society,

but it's not going to vision including i had, which as you may know, why i did when i was, had a big test would consider them to be as one of our techs and did the wonderful way . my good friend, but i just what i need, and i think this will be extremely important because he right. kevin had decided to put it as an urgency. okay. but now, you know, the investigation and the things which we put in the suite. okay. and in the 1st of the media, and that's why i find that something that you would. okay. all right, let's, let's bring in chris. i've got about 2 minutes left on the program, chris, i just wanted to say and if i may pick up on this, um there are a 150 signatures to this convention where all of a y is what she's doing. and they have an obligation to prevent genocide for the last 3 months. we've seen a slow motion, genocide, know what is takes on proper steps to prevented. so yes, the un is dominated by medically it's on a huge political pressure, especially on the quest of even using the g. what we've seen them silenced as i'll

be able to set. but what about the member's face? they're a $150.00 cent interest. why they don't speak not to put him genocide. i wanted to ask you what, what we should make of the of the us systems restored, for instance, report at the beginning of the program. don't think about what i'm sleeping contains as well. i can tell you this, i'm going to realize that and this was the great, less than perhaps the great take away from the 7th of october. that is where it will be condemned to live in a state of complaint in security, with the threats of most 7th of october events, unless it is prepared to recognize that the best way to secure israel is to give the palestinians a functioning state to give them the self determination, the old people's oppressions, especially oppressed peoples craves. they want their own state, they want a functioning economy, they want dignity if they want the accountability and they won't justice until that is granted to the palestinians. the people southern as well as elsewhere in the region will be destined to live in

a state of utter and security. i went on the march and on to the anti semitism march. i heard this cries, describe never again. but as far as i'm concerned, never again must be applied university. it must be applies to old people, including the palestinians. the gentleman, i'm afraid we must uh, end the discussion manufacturing day to the will for taking part. i'm a, i'm a fool chris, guys. and again, and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the websites of elder 0. don't com. for further discussion, you can join us on our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story out. of course you can join the conversation on x. i'll handle that as a inside story from a very and for the good. and the team here at the house. we'll see you again, bye for now the the latest news as it breaks. i don't want you to remember the

scene on restoring national city in unity with fearless journalism. these people copying show towing to escape from the relentless bombardment from the hall to the story. many people borne along the cube, hoping for a meal that would over crowded towns unlimited aids. many are left with dust. brittany it's undisputed that 72 muslims were massacred in the village of indiana, india and 1987 witnesses say the perpetrators or a mob of locals along side the state governments provincial. i'm constabulary personnel. over 30 years later, a district court acquitted the accused to date, no one has been as accountable. people in power asks why the victims continue to be denied justice. india's forgotten must occur on the jersey to it is a tenant journalist to produce objective these stream items. think that there is

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doctor award winning intense investigations, compelling insights into human folds and untold stories from asia or in the pacific one. 0, one east. on now to 0, the the hello, i'm elizabeth put on them and this is algebra live from doha. the us top cost is about to hit arguments. that is right, is commission genocide and it's war on garza. this is the scene at the international court of justice where proceedings are about to get underway. the case is bought by south africa and accuse this is read a violation of the 1948 to un genocide convention with mass cummings exposed.