a fascination or sign or join us and let's discover a better world. expo 2023. the can the international court of justice force israel to stop its war on concept. south africa says that as well as of tracks on the palestinians of genocidal at it's launching a legal battle with the new and it's 12 court. so when it's supposed to make any difference of who would enforce this, this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, israel as well on guns that has killed tens of thousands of palestinians and forced most of us from that homes. now it's going to have to answer the challenges of genocide in the course of little south africa is launching a case against israel at the international court of justice, the united nations highest legal body. well, a final ruling could be, is a way the i c, j could baker provisional order to as well, to end its campaign in a matter of weeks. so how significant would that be? and would it help to bring it in to the conflict? we'll go to a panel in just a few moments, but 1st, since, and one of them has this report south africa is taking legal action in the international court of justice against israel for it's more on gaza. it accuses the country of carrying out genocide. the collective punishment of palestinian civilians through the under full use of force. this is all is

a war cry. the deliberate denial of medicine, fuel food and water to the residence of gaza is time to amount to genocide and see. but israel has vowed to defend itself in court, and the u. s. has joined it in condemning the proceedings and giving political and the legal cover to the october 7 masika and the how mosque human field strategy hop south africa has made itself criminally complicit with hamas. his campaign of genocide against the people, the submission against his real to the international court of justice, distracts the world from all of these important efforts. and more over the charge of genocide is meritus, south africa submission accused of israel, of acting with intent to destroy in whole or in part the post in using gaza. evidence includes the killing and displacement of large numbers of civilians destroying homes and enforcing a blockade on the central supplies,

including food and water. icy j cases can go on for years. but south africa is asked the court to make a provisional ruling ordering israel to stop its military campaign. this could happen within weeks. but the court likes and enforcement mechanism. and israel could ignore it, the orders us. yes, these really governments announcement that it will fight the case in court shows is taking the seriously international pressure has been building against israel's campaign in gaza. and the back the v i. c. j could further sway opinions both in israel and around the world finch and moment, which is 0 for inside story. the police areas could potentially be a putting points in the international communities approach to it as well as war on garza. so let's bring in our guests to help explain and debate its importance from the hague. we're joined by opposite of, of who, who's an international lawyer,

a legal researcher and advocacy office of i'll talk about some leading palestinian human rights organization from london, which wide by chris gun is to full, a spokesman for unreal. the un agency that provides relief to palestinians. he's lived through his rails previous was on garza and there was a thing or 2 about the international law on genocide and crimes against humanity and his role as director of the me on the accountability project. and also in the hague, we're very pleased to have a drama dang back on the program. he's a distinguished expert on genocide as the former you and special adviser on the prevention of genocide. he's also a special advisor to the office of the prosecutor for the international criminal court judgement. welcome to you. oh, and let's start with you. what does the law actually say about what constitutes genocide? what will the i c, j take into consideration in this case? well dennis side is, is it a good time that is clearly defined and international by the genocide convention

and seminar the by the room associated with the international criminal court. and it's the genocide is committed when search and acts have taken place with the intent to destroy it in whole or in part a national or racial group. and the location of genocide and destruction in palestine have been made by several bodies including you on experts. hundreds of genocide and how the costs of schoolers and several academies as well. so this is the definition of genocide and it is applicable when these elements are met and, and distortion problems in palestine. they seem to have to be met. that's why the, the international court of justice has jurisdiction in this case. and we'll be looking into deciding on the provisional matchers that have been asked by south

africa. it's chris hi, desktop alone is not enough to prove intent. a key element in charges of genocide, israel vehemently denies allegations of war crimes, claiming that the country is acting in self defense. how does south africa go about proving its accusations of genocide in this case? well, it's very clear. first of all, the humanitarian facts on the ground, there are full categories of actions by the israelis that the south africans are headed again on in the deck. complaints to the cool one is deliberate cuttings. well, 65, a, sorry, 23000 people have been killed that dropping 2000 pound bones in one of the most heavily populated parts of the world. as far as the 2nd category, which is causing a deliberate mental or bodily harm. and we're seeing huge amounts of trauma, 80 percent of children, even before this war was showing heightened trauma,

the bed resting immune system, a suicidal ideation is we're affecting 50 percent. and then you have the issue of imposing conditions of life design to destroy the group, either impossible it old of its 355000 homes that 60 percent of the housing stock has been completely destroyed. 1.9000000, also 2300000 people have been displaced and very lossy. the 4th category which the south africans are heading in on is imposing conditions that prevent but it's now pretty much show up. so for us and by about 30 percent, we've been struggling to find sanitary conditions in which they kind of give us. and we've all seen the pictures of the n, t maple clinics and hospitals, which themselves are being bones and destroyed and stuffed of a fuel. as far as intentionality is concerned,

which is the 2nd part of your question. adrian, what we're seeing is the prime minister on 2 occasions and voting the biblical. i'm a look, a genocide injunction from god leave know women and men based. they must all be salted. we've seen the defense minister your of color took about the complete blockade. no fuels, no water, no food. we've even had amuse, reported by the jerusalem post of local officials. i'm talking about ted and gaza into something that looks like our fits, we've had took about an eruption style. but we've had his way to cabinet ministers, old in a comment withdrawal and that talked about dropping and you keep them, which by the way, does at least confirm that the most far right government in the history of israel actually possesses a new cable. and so as far as the 2 monetary in fax on the ground, the question of intentionality is concerned. i think south africa has a, a very strong case, ms. osmond said many genocide and holocaust scholars including his rabies and

jewish scholars have confirmed that this is quite a text book genocide done at the end. while the i, c j is decisions are legally binding and con, be appealed. the court doesn't have its own ability to enforce rulings that responsibility lies with the the, you and security council. are you convinced that south africa has a solid case? and what happens if israel ignores any judgement that goes against it? well, i should say 1st of all that uh this is that righty a historic moment. uh because of we are happening tomorrow. the case the hearing by the code and both stuff that forgot and just try and we'll be making the points. but i what, what, what, what i want to say is that i'm really dreadful to stop traffic off foot having

taken this case. why? because it is about convention and the vacation, vend genocide, ease of responsibility, which for both of us. and most importantly, to those states body to the 1948 genocide convention. and i would say that he'd been based on the customer to so low that even those 5 enough, what did fight about it to defend the 2nd time this most part of it is kind of to boca now the question these and i think uh quickly and yeah, made of quite the most difficult element to evidence is the intent. and of course uh it been a long time to get the evidence. but yeah,

my main concern is what can we do to make sure that what is happening into our eyes come twin and i'm not cutting fine because it would well, it wouldn't be for the quote based on the evidence which had broad before it by fax africa based on the observation and audit elements made by just try and make the point. let's not forget that even the site and i did time also at cheese that have most of committing genocide. but we have to be very careful using the g will e. something that series and we should not ready use it. likely. but in the case of guys and what we have seen the collect pacific got what do you have seen?

what uh, being uh, not also being kept maybe good facilities and people being displaced. so what made but the question i read facing the risk of genocide in guys and because of what, speaking about the breeze, the this case is very important. i'm not saying that there is a genocide, which is a cause. i know, as i said, is what it did on mine by a court of justice. but we are asking those dates which have in for us to use back in feelings, prevent this guy to okay. alright. alright. um, do you wanna pick up on, on, on what uh, i don't know was saying the, how important is historical context to south africa's application and of what's at

stake here in terms of the credibility of the international legal system. you know, it is absolutely important not only the history of, of south africa as a country that understands what's going on in palestine, but also that genocide, a and as a crime is not something that is completely alien to sup, local, in your readings, colonialism is guilty of genocide and other places around the world as matter of fact. and most accept the colonial routines argue, and the title by um, by nature they are inherently the genocidal and south africa is a country that suffered such located on and is himself for an upper tide. understands this very well, but not, not only that south africa's application and it states that it is also important to police. is there any acts of genocide in the broad or context of israel's conduct towards the palestinians during the past 75 years of apartheid and the

56 year long, belligerent occupation of the can bypass and transfer it is. this is the longest situation of modern history, which includes also sick over 16 years long. uh, bill paid self. okay. thing uh, closure of the gaza strip. where as earl has been counting to calorie intake, the palestinians need even before this escalation which and also the deal. and also talked about this in a report in 2012 saying that god. so we'd be on livable by 2020 or 3 years past past that with a indiscriminate compartment and with no where to go know where is it safe? so the, the fact that there is education of genocide and gaza. it's not quite surprising because these are this govern by it's a races, sits low colonial ideology. that is zion isn't that the world has decided for decades that it's

a form of racism and racial discrimination until 1991. when this resolution was revolt, us to offer as well conditions as cervical verification to come to the negotiating table in demetri calling for us for peace. so it wasn't for both because sign is him stop being racism. but because israel condition it's verification on coming to magic, so you see israel is, is there, i was governing ideology. zionism is inherently racist, is inherently genocidal. and if, if you look at the history of the statements made by israeli, and zion is leader, a sense for the stablish mentor of israel. they were also genocidal. this is not new rhetoric. this has been always there. chris, i know you wanted to come in the i just wanted to say i meant to pick up on the question of using the g would very likely let's be clear since the 7th of october, counseling is really politicians, including the prime minister, the defense minister cabinet ministers,

members of the ideas and others have made it very clear that they all missing genocide. they have self and cited in public on numerous occasions. so all the court needs to do is look, use google that will tell you. the other thing i was was pick up on arguments points about historical context. roughly a limb kit. and the man who in the 1940s claimed the term genocide to refer to the jewish experience in europe, was very clear that genocide is possible continue and. and in the case of the palestinians, this continuum goes back at least 2 as far as 1948 and the dispossession which has continued on a daily basis for the palestinians since 1948. as i said since 1967, the palestinians have had that land occupied as well as imposed on the palestinians . a system of a policy, both in the west bank and gaza and the getting his awkward said this being a blockade, which is a collective punishment. it's a war crime,

it's illegal on the international. and when the genocide convention told about imposing conditions of life calculated to destroy impulse or in the whole, the group is precisely this kind of blockade and this collective punishment. but because the convention is talking about. so while i understand the need for caution fits your dish, just caution. i would also say that the facts on the ground as reported by audra and other united agencies, now i'm through history point very clearly by is prime of face to evidence of genocide committed both on a historical basis um now on the u. n. so it has plenty of confirmed and corroborated evidence of that. it's of course why, why would the you and then use the word genocide as well. that's a very, very good question, because what comes into play here is politics and buy something suitable several

quite a few holes and garza, including the last one in 2014 and in 2009 where we saw under facilities, an unrestored being killed in 2007, 84, the main warehouse in gauze of was destroyed and the un in new york didn't he even have the guts to press charges compensation for the stalls members killed. that was a decision for one. so i can see is a spokesman, the injury, some not takes and the on the gone by on, but by new york. so it's, well the pen should be paid compensation of $10400000.00. there was no question of pressing charges for killing you. and member, soft humanitarian workers that was squashed politically, and that was the question all the few staff members being killed. so how much great, so the political weights being put on on the un now, and i can tell you, the americans controlled the department of political affairs in new york as boys and americans on the top of it. and what happens is that decision goes through the

office of legal affairs, the departments of political affairs, on the secretary general's office. and that is huge american pressure even to stop that was being use. and let me tell you agent, this jewish as i called it, jewish just rated council culture. i wasn't even allowed to show it to per ton. as a phrase though, i did on many occasions, i wasn't allowed to use the a. what do you paul take would until much later on? i'm such a g would as a down a points out is even more sensitive and i'll be even grace of political pressure. but let's be clear, the south african separate representative. an excellent takes us to pub case and i think now one of the good things about this is the g. what will come into the international disclose to describe the contemporary protestant inexperience, and we must never withdrawal from that because that is the reality in the lives potter students in both casa, i'm the westbound is a genocide, and let's be clear, donna, what's, what's going on with the u. n. a, you,

you had your christmas description of, of, of what's, what he, you know, speaking from a, a, a full my insight as a point of view. but why was this this case left to south africa to bring white? why wasn't you when championing it? well, what let, let me 1st say one thing. this is 1st and foremost, an obligation of the state bodies to defend the occurrence of the deal of the commission of get a site. and i should say that we have seen a case, which is the most security group that writing it the time before this case really attracted the attention. we all know the responsibility of the security council. and that's in the, at the time when i was special, i price the under good bad stuff. again aside, i sounded around and my eyes, the only time i would say i was maybe successful was in the case of

somebody that's kind of good by where the commission of inquiry would be led by the stone completed that it was really just as the been seen and it was and we all know the boundary between ethnic cleansing and genocide. and what i would simply say is that the, me, i will, let's go to the extent of saying that the un, uh, was afraid to use the key word of goals when it come to the, to mine. and that has been a position within the u. n. for a long time, due until the case is, is actually dictated before the court of justice versus the good the good, i'm guessing we cannot say you have had funds in many time some people who would

use the word genocide when it comes to what happened to my side of 1915, i mean this korean courtney genocide, the subsidies. so say to just go to the dental side. but for the united nation, if it was i did the guy did like been typing in that case. like the dental side of the season. one and in 1994, then that would be use and let's do that again myself. what is extremely important is to make sure, okay, that stayed by his beauty minded, a bit of the decent. and that is why i found this case extremely consult that the, the, the drug test was, i'm sorry that i'm sorry to interrupt you. so the time that time is, is pretty tied to you. i just wanted let, i'm not getting who shaking his head the to yeah, but well i, i, i agree that the primary responsibility isn't states because their parties at the

convention, but the, you and has a responsibility also to address the situation. so for example, mister adams was the, um, uh, the special adviser on the prevention of genocide. so such, office such mandate is specifically to prevent genocide. so when there is risk of genocide such office with issues statement, it's quite disgraceful. it's quite shameful that his critique, who's now in the office miss alice andrew too, until now didn't issue a statement on genocide. so how does he respond to that? if he was an office, he mentioned he was an office and he issued a statement when it comes to writing, got rightly so. he did a great job. so what does he think about his his colleagues not issuing a statement. northley, the only statement she issued at the beginning of this collection only condemn the palestinians and her own clinic. colleagues at the un sent

a letter of dixon to search in silence and the buyer's statements. april. and it's quite difficult to cover the, the, okay, the impaction of the un. there's no excuses for that. as i said, we're rapidly running out of time. so i'm sorry, i'll just throw that back quickly to adama a. you've got about 30 seconds to watch so that what i mean to me really i think uh, i meant i had, i'm in a position which is very difficult. i mean that too. uh uh, but what i can say, and i took that and made it very clear as a 9th of october when i was leaving a conference invoke. so i made it clear recently what getting the 28 uh, what is happening and the out is but the next step, the book and i, somebody please that to the prosecutor of the i. c. c cutting can and then tomorrow . ready we're going to meet with the civil society, but it's not going to vision including i have, which as you may know,

why i did when i was, had a big test would consider them to be as one of our techs and did the wonderful way . my good friend, but i just what i mean. and i think this will be extremely important because he's right. kevin had decided to put it as an urgency. okay. but now you know, the investigation and the things which we put in the suite. okay. and look into some of the media, and that's why i find that something that you would. okay. all right, let's, let's bring in chris. i've got about 2 minutes left on the program, chris, i just wanted to say and if i may pick up on this, um there are a 150 signatures to this convention where all of a wise which assume that they have an obligation to prevent genocide for the last 3 months receive a slow motion, genocide, know what is takes on proper steps to prevented. so yes, the un is dominated by medically it's on a huge political pressure, especially on the quest of even using the g. what we've seen them silenced as i'll be able to set but what about the members face?

they're a 150 cent interest. why they don't speak not to put him genocide. i wanted to ask you what, what we should make of the of the us systems restored, for instance, report at the beginning of the program. don't think about what i'm sleeping contains. well, i can tell you this, i'm going to realize that and this was the great, less than perhaps the great take away from the 7th of october. that is where it will be condemned to live in a state of complaint in security, with the threats of most sevens of october events, unless it is prepared to recognize that the best way to secure israel is to give the palestinians a functioning state to give them the self determination, the old people's oppressions, especially oppressed peoples craves. they won't own the state, they won't functioning economy, they won't dignity if they want the accountability. and they won't just as an until that is granted to the palestinians, the people of southern as well and elsewhere. in the region will be destined to live in a state of us in security. i went on the march and onto the anti semitism march. i

heard this cries, describe never again. but as far as i'm concerned, never again must be applied university. it must be applies to old people, including the palestinians. the gentleman, i'm afraid we must to end the discussion, but he's like some day to the will for taking part about before christmas. and i've done a dan and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website, so i'll just 0, don't com. for further discussion, you can join us on our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story out. of course you can join the conversation on x or handle that at age a inside story from a very inside again. and the team here in the house will see you again, bye for now the . it was never good to see. that doesn't happen. our country is out enough, we will not take it at a bar 3 years after protest,

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we are, the ones traveling the extra mile where auto media don't go. we go there and we give them a chance to tell their story. the, [000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm about this and this is the news. our life from dell are coming up in the next 16 minutes more palestinian chip children will become w c. n s s. wounded childs no surviving family. so that i got makes this case for the international court of justice accusing