the, the, the, it may be a, has condensed, germany's packing of israel against genocide, challenges of the international court of justice. it says, given germany's colonial brutalities, but it should not support as well. so what's behind this furious diplomatic disputes of why now this is inside story, the

hello welcome to the program. i'm adrian said again, maybe a has fast. they criticize germany for intervening and defensive israel at the international court of justice. south africa brought the case against israel, accusing it of committing genocide and guns up. now germany wants to appear at the court to make a submission and suppose of israel. and it may be condemned to move pointing to germany's own colonial era genocide committed against its indigenous people. this is a story with many strands showing how the past intertwines without present world. or i will get to, i guess in just a moment. but 1st, we will close, i'm sure it sets up our discussion at the tone of the last century. germany was the colonial bruno, of what is present, a media between 19 full and 19 o. 8 german forces killed more than 70000 indigenous people. some rested to it as the 1st genocide of the 20th century in 2021. berlin acknowledge

committing genocide in the media. now, in a skating criticism against its former colonial rule, the media has condemned germany for supporting as well against genocide charges made bus with africa at the international code of justice in a statement posted online. and it may be in preston, hague aging. gov eligible and to reconsider decision to intervene as a 3rd party in defense of his royal gen golf says jimmy is ignoring the depths of more than $23000.00 palestinians and defending what he calls genocidal and gross acts of the is rarely government. then the medium preston says, jimmy has failed to learn lessons from its colonial cost game and is trying to dodge because they know if south africa succeed in this case. so then they, then the next is germany because we're, we're, we're, we're going to do to, to

a gentleman who will not finish with gemini. so i was told that it is also with it . but other students, you really and, and gus independence, the people because the land is occupied while colonial as possible, which had those new media relations with germany. the holocaust has defined bullets ties with his rent. since the vote on calls i began, the german government has increases on 6 votes by 10 folds. thoughts then stated one does idea is germany stands by israel side. we will support the country and we support its right to self defense, that the b b as president says jamica not mostly committed south to the un convention against genocide while supporting what it calls the equivalent of a hollow cost and genocide in gaza. and the criticism comes as judges at the hague, a deal, a breeding after to day public hearing on the accusations of genocide in casa, is one, has rejected the claims indicated it's military operation. and casa,

is in self defense, and to eliminate come off several countries, including the media. now, backing. so that's what this case at the have. let me pull some show these. i'll just see the full inside starting that's bringing out guess for today from the to be as comfortable with joined by which in the country or who is the permit chief of the overhead of traditional authority in the may be up from up satellite and sweeping which went by heading notebook from the northern africa institute, them from heidelberg in germany, the ties goldman, a senior research fellow at the max planck institute with expertise on international and john buddies colonial ruined in africa. i welcome to you. oh, let's start with you. matthias. what do you make of germany's intervention at the, the international court of justice, and shouldn't the country responsible for to genocides be actively looking to

prevent the thought? absolutely, adrian, i cannot agree more with you. let's say that legally speaking, it's not entirely surprising that germany is making an intervention. because in all fairness, germany has intervened. in previous cases, often to cite before the international court of justice, namely the case brought by ukraine against russia. and the case brought by the gambia against young mart. so there is some presidential germany intervening in genocide cases that obviously due to germany's history. and there was a reason why it is particularly concerned about that. but let me say that i found the way in which germany announced its intention to intervene. quite surprising. it's not to say disappointing because i think they have different ways and, but she can and say that. and what i found, particularly as a particularly appropriate magic,

is the way that they frame to south africa has complained as an instrument to this ation of the international court of justice. which means basically it thinks it's a legitimate suit. it's something that should not happen. and after all we've heard during the pleadings in the past days or last week, and that is why it's a strong statement. definitely, i'm absolutely not surprised by the reaction on the on the side of the beep. yeah. okay. that's bringing uh, which in to uh and the video is comfortable. what are we to make of the timing of the maybe as intervention here? can we see it as a genuine expression of salt, as honestly with the people of casa? it's a thank you for having engine. um some of us intervention is our protocol because uh we had a long history of cooperation with the published and integration organization

all the time through the times that uh just the fact was the president. so the case that some of the guys laws, this is a case of in the media as a whole support. but it becomes a bit of a surprise to, to, to the city of a head to people and the number of people that's tough of a similar set at the hands of the gym. and the president is now to suggest many of not all of not being in the land we see with a device that convention, while at the same time a government has cited with gemini for violating the sofa victims not to participate in the negotiations for getting the wisdom many about deadman has not come into the general site and that will be a full i agree. so that given me much on the pay the money to what a bilateral arrangement, the development age programs. and i mean the instead of paying their patients. so i

think is a bit people critique of the precedent now to, to say, look tim and he might have to do that. i see why the not only cost ations we can we agree to not to do that which and to where the overhead or traditional authority. it was that the, the traditional authority actually consulted ahead of the, the, the presidents in intervention. and what did your organization make of it? is linked us into the issue. we wouldn't not consolidate at all. we we, we have to do that. and the social media is incredibly, we're also not consulted. we're not precedents. the start didn't to negotiate with the german government or to on the question. no, for not mind at all the patients. okay, let's bring in the heading. what did you make of president don? god's intervention that his son. busy on diplomatic language,

indeed is very strong, like rich, which is not in line, this huge road to come and see. and i think it simply highlights the of friends with a me, pins 10 and president guy and go voiced in the brother blunt way. the adult frustration which is existing in a majority of meet periods when they look at the german attitude, which they can see that as arrogance as hypocrisy. and more of the instead of it's going to be as well all the time on friday. and it was a lecturing pausing of germany during the last 2 years after germany finally admitted that what happened at the beginning of the 20 searches century wants. in today's perspective, a general side, which is a reservation,

meaning there is no lead to the relevance to what they admit has been committed. and they were always told, not least, the agencies of the old lot hero and the nama and the chief cub, testified to that, that you cannot compare your case risk at all cost. yeah, and the preference was made to this thing. you larry d, off now on our cost, as if from that perspective, often nama and all by a radio and the down arrow. and this time, the x termination strategy that was applied to them was not a singular experience. and i think that is songs in germany, i'm just the very day despite the admission of guilt and remorse as faint to understand that is a total lack of empathy when it comes to the perspectives of the regions and the president, gun golf voice, left frustration because you will not get agreement the yep,

i can only underline what tending man has just said, i think it's absolutely correct to state that germans are on domestic, under estimating what this cost has to people elsewhere in the world, particularly to the victims. and you know, the descendants of the victims off past 10 on site to see germany in such a possession right now. and to see how many lecture the was the, has been a lot of diplomacy from germany and that price. and i would say in some ways, at least sincerely, to break with a pos and make a difference in particular and relations, profit and countries. and, you know, to actually gets to a state as a partnership at each level. but what we heard in the past weeks has basically obliterated these f thoughts. i think you can restitution a lot of who took art or

a lot of human remains or as many as you want. if you don't follow up on that behavior when it comes to the suits brought by off by south africa, there have been many attempts that tried to deal legitimize the south african government actually quite from the center of society, not only from the fringes, but also from you know, from serious people in positions of power and that i find quite a quite set actually it, it, it really means that many people haven't understood that the time. so if you're repeating appear, it isn't all over chafe, catch you. i'll come back to you in just a moment, but while it, but just want to pick up on this point with, with heading. and once again, his germany ever offered a sincere apology for its actions. and in the may be an, an if knows, you, i mean with that, what are we to make of germany's, i'm critical loyalty of israel as well. you see they have adopted

standards and of a big again 2015. the german government, more in policy, admitted that what happened at the beginning of the 20 century. what's the general side? this folks for us know for foreign ministry in odds ring. the question of john, are these set? if you want to call the tunnel side, then call the to turn on site. and that's trick upside. that's really legal. shay sions between the german at the beach and government and those negotiations, pharaoh bought the form of a paula cheese. so just imagine from the point of view of number objects, that is that a state that's estimates to have committed genocide and then starts in the meantime, 8 years of negotiations to reach a compromise in the trust joint declaration. how the apology is phrase.

and the reason for that is that this is supposed to be an apology, which has no legal implications added, follows a slogan which already was issued 20 years ago by the then following the new stuff . your scott fish up was at no apology, which is relevant for reparations negotiations between the media and german. the real focused on the issue is that germany wants desperate to avoid a precedence that the recognition of the general side in south west africa would be one that is legally relevant for reparations. and the term reparations is not mentioned in the joint declaration. so we are given back to square one when it comes to the top of standards. and just imagine that reasoning is that the u. n. general side convention was adopted after the general sidewalks committed

in south west africa. it refers to this principle of interrupt temple rather to reb, i say you conte qualified as a lot stop and for general side because that notion was still there, not trust cost for the moment. as you mentioned, what would happen if it's the same argument. one would make reference as to the honda of course, as a general side which was not in legal terms, a turn on the site because it happened before the adoption of the genocide convention. this is the perspective of the point of view of memory just and the germans simply don't get it. the chase catch you on the joint declaration issued by the german and the baby and government says, germany asks forgiveness for the sins of its full fathers and the be in government . the people accept germany's apology. why isn't that?

along with the funds the german, he's agreed to pay enough for the colorado and nama communities. we apologies that phase, the concessions cannot space place between then that'd be a mistake then jim and state. we have animals in books, one in south africa, the united states, united kingdom, and elsewhere. they are not part of ethnic positions, we're gonna concede, and the apology is not to the nation. the apology must come to the communities, whether the members who have suffered systematically under the timing they extermination or does that position. so direct participation and coughing, what the need to resolve and how we come to address the noun. so this is how about 12 about doing well. therefore, if it is only between tuesday to really talk much, it does not. it's not something that will show us up because

this case uh, may be a germany underscore is the challenges of writing historically injustices in ways that are acceptable to inclusive of the very people who, who were wrong. uh, what are the implications of this for the people have gone so when it comes to the information of what needs to be taught before they the big genocide, to like to reduce all 5 of these uh they have to be directly involved. it is not going to, it should not be an issue of the national community decide to uh for the palestinians . uh as to how they should be. uh how they need to be addressed to us. do you want to pick up on that? yes. um sure. so this is an interesting issue. uh, you know, at some point uh, this will, will over with the overall we would come to the point where we have to talk about

reparations. and now in the case of guys, uh, i would include in that the bait issues of war crimes and crimes against humanity. i would not solely focus on dental side because on substance i'm not sure if we can actually talk about a general site that is already happening there. manufacturing issues, many of them have been brought up at the cord. general side is a crime that is very hard to prove because the intention to eliminate a people's needs to come together with the fact. so someone needs to act in order to implement that intention. and that is quite difficult to prove. it is a very clear case in with respect and that may be because that has been an order by general low, tough on toyota ordering the elimination. and then he just states that we don't have that clear a case in the gaza, but still there is the issue of war crimes, for example, using excessive violence using and starvation,

or at least attempting to stop the people using it in sufficient care to distinguish between civilians and combatants and so on and so on and all of that good get price to reparation. so i would call it and the view here. yeah. because what, what about the, what about the, you know, you have right wing is where the government ministers talking about, you know, performing, you guys are entered into a situation. sure. surely that's better than to look at. yeah, absolutely. well, what that shows is an intention to commit genocide or maybe even insight that's to attend that side. but as i just said, you know, the people acting on the ground and guy said they need to have to have the same intentions. so what you need to do is you need to prove that there is basically a line of combined between whichever person and make such a comment as calling for the opposite ration of gaza. and the person pulling the

trigger or dropping the bump. and that is very hard to prove it particular, and if much of that information depends on a military that, you know, you don't control. so if it's a let, let me put it in that way. and many of these issues have come up and i'm not alone in, you know, if it's sitting a little bit on the fence, it's that will actually be proven. but i think i see much better ground tier for proving crime, so for and maybe even the crimes against humanity and that will itself already give price to reparation. clicks, headings, you want to come in on that i think there is indeed a difference which following the commence now makes the point as much as has stressed. the claim to commit genocide is very difficult and hard to prove. and in the past or from the i c, c, the record was very reluctant. did at this i meant to also of legal disputes. i've

shown much, yes, no, it's much better than i do. risk call us actually feel the definition of the general side is rather on suitable to be tested in the courts. what is much more suitable as war crimes and crimes against humanity. and it's much easier to follow that line of all right. then we have a number of touch rooms where this was, where would that route walk drives any crimes against humanity. so that if that is indeed the distinction, which also means at the i c j, the case as i am the reverie. unfortunately, the thing of the reason why we are discussing it now is that germany did a very, this is a wise move. on the 12th of january on that day, a 120 units off the wall between the maintenance and the german started

caught them in a general side pull from the general side issue with a statement in absolute defense of this drive. and the same day didn't need yours, a single address, the historical legacy at a time when the by that's where the biggest ations s we are told about to be computed in a joint declaration. whereas the chief pointed out, germany apologize to the intermediates and the number you can government test. if i've ever planned there or tested to, to accept an apology. in that declaration was often american people having the knots over every row. and then i might have to dump a little rambles asked if they are, but a trip to the border to that is the context chief culture of the agreement between germany and the maybe it was supposed to be a but a win win for old germany would determine for its it's bloody crimes and they'd be

able to get much needed funding. why did protests breakdown when the agreement was, was, was made the agreement dated from what to the public expect it from? i did patterson package to develop them in the progress and um the, the money that was provided was very unique. um as a result uh, most people did not like it. uh, you know, specific case disagreement. uh, it's between the media and the german state. exclude people in but so i'm a suffolk, i now swear, therefore to be it was in mama's, it seems to where excluded from the beginning. this is something that we're never going to trust them at all. and one less take load. you can one of the cost, the saves that agreement is signed is, is uh we're pro,

as any future discussions on the issue of a demo site under fire insurance. so let's process the book and jim and he went on to say look, they, they, what they haven't done is a guest job. i'm good with. so it was monday, but i should like it's about a guest job between 2 and government. so really it shows that i don't guns in that position, open closing to that idea stage what they want to start really thinking talk on that particular situation or the needs of the people to escalate back to, to germany's intervention at the, the i c, j a what the legal grounds does it have for that? so for any states party to the i, c, j, it's possible to intervene in an ongoing dispute because our disputes only take place between parties. but as the, as the j is the most, the authoritative international court did really affect all the states because they

might create a president. and so germany is concerned about the interpretation of the genocide convention or 8 was concerned about that in the previous cases in which it intervene. so you could say you're on the face of it. it's not necessarily legitimate to intervene in such a case. and as i said, it's quite a bit from, from the perspective of the genocide convention, it's quite a complicated case. while, while it clearly seat incitement to genocide and way clearly see a risk or a threat of genocide, whether there is an extra commitment. often a site is quite an entry and if it could at mann and i would be very careful in jumping to a conclusion there. so there's good reasons to, you know, to make, to make and submissions for all the states. actually, the international court, which has also to function a little bit of a forum for the bathing international law. there is no legislature international law. there's only sporadic treaties and i think that's an important function that

the court can folks. so i think it as such as it's okay to intervene in the case, but the questions read, how do you do it? how do you frame it? and do you do it in a way that is, i think disrespectful to south africa heading finally, right. but it is this, you have another example of the global south, exposing the double standards of, of the west, of the global north. i think it is, and it's another piece in the parcel of a globe or realignment begin with this since a few years. or there are a number of reference points. and i wonder if president guy and go would estimate estimate a strong statement 2 years ago. they are realignments, countries of the so called global falls select can you positives. they are extremely frustrated that the luxury of the hegemonic breast continues that the

rest tell them what is right and what is wrong. meanwhile, they apply the standards all the time. i'm not saying that in go was countries who are like, jump on know, top at standards. unfortunately, tablets tend to seem to be an integral part of basically every country. but they all fed up and have enough of the rest telling them what to do. and what, what to do. they are report section 8, and there are new globe and actors with which they can align. okay. many thanks into it. i'm so i'm sorry to interrupt you that heading, but we are out of time. thank you gentlemen, chief, which in the country you are heading, melba, advertise goldman, and thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website. i'll just hear a dot com for further discussion. join us

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