and the state has no business getting involved in that gods chosen to bless us because we protect israel. i want to continue. do you want to state level all that i can't support the 3 part series explodes, the implications of us and people who called lower the freedom of speech and 1st amendment rights. more about the issue, whatever i'm looking for for my day and talk to him quote on which is 0. it's a deal that's raise the fire of somalia right away. some of the lines of lead to gloss details here much so an access to the red sea conditions has it's an act of aggression and violation of its suffering team. so how will this dispute play out? and as a possibility, this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on of the day in between. if you, if you and a break away region of somalia is raising tensions and the horn of africa, somebody ever got some on demand as part of its territory and has wound ethiopia against interfering. and it's a says, but if you, if you as landlocked and wants access to the see something, some on demand can provide regional blocks to trying to mediate, but need aside, is willing to back down. we go to a panel in the moment that 1st fenton model has this report. the fury in somalia over deal between ethiopia and symbolic land, somalia regard small un break away part of its own territory. and the government is accusing if you, you, of interference and aggression no one has the power to give away a piece of somalia. our grandfather refused. all full fathers refused, and all mothers refused. we ourselves refused to give all land and it is not

possible. some of the people will never accept. smalley land declared independence from somalia in 1990. 1 that hasn't been internationally recognized in somalia continues to claim the territory. but somali land has something you need access to the red sea. the agreement signed in early january without ethiopia to lease a portion of somali lance coast instead of a commercial port. a naval base. going to me some way i learned is because this will be the starting point for our cooperation with the brotherly people of somalia armed to grow and developed together. and this in cooperation, i'm to ensure a common secure team has done as we've repeatedly stated, we do not wish to use force on anyone lava. we'll use what we have cooperatively has personality land. it's hoping the deal will lead to official recognition by ip yeah. one of the things that we are very happy and we think you'll be in prime

minister as we signed the agreement here. we will allow them 20 kilometers of our c and they will also recognize us as an independent state. they will become the 1st to recognize somali left cock us it out of the skin. regional neighbors have called for com, with some attempting to mediation the dispute. but somalia says there can be no talks until the deal is canceled. no site is shown any willingness to back down intentions are growing. and if the agreement between ethiopia and symbolic that is put into practice, many fear they will get a lot worse. vince and bother him l 20 for insights. story that spring in august. and just to get your p a is come alhashan mohammed with a member of the if you, if you in parliament in nairobi, mcbride and a strategic advisor at san research. that's a political think tank, covered the horn of africa and didn't come paula is of the i into a full list,

some of the minister of planning and investment and economic development. he's also the co founder of the heritage institute for policy studies thing tag in somalia. a very warm welcome to all of you mr. mohammed with. i'll start with you and jessica prime minister document says that landlord countries such as ethiopia face in some mountable challenges. but why go to somali land to address that when it showed for the dispute a lot? well, attack us so, so i think the, the pharmacist called was not the specific system. i learned only to be as data this good vision need this uh, direct access to c, and for this uh, the problem is that all the, all the guarantees really got to call 12 neighboring countries. uh oh, i appreciate the also so diploma mazes and leslie and so while i was the 1st respond does always happened to approach it. so my lad, as an adult,

if it was in the specification of to so my life and this has been very positive move and which are bad to treat us and sort of the support to the info to buy that we can unit to enforce and strength isn't the division for boys? uh, you know, you called them they can a social uh, inter says which benefit us all of all parties and them speak of somebody like like the liberty categories we share those only borders supposed to be shows with the same community. let me see that this would be a good benefit for boys, a particularly being in the trip. i didn't so my life. so that's it. but there was in the as best they can tell us to something by like, but i'm very comfortable. that's the one that does become the 1st of the 1st to understand these and also to, to respond positively. russell hop that other neighboring countries will also respond. so read okay, that we have also access to other places uh to the port angeles useful. and i would

say it's only an opportunity to open the door, neighboring good countries. so let's press the can the most in region all for me just to get in, get it conflict or not. these are very positive. but of course, given that some of the land is not recognized as a country by any other nation in the world, this is why the move has received a lot of condemnation from many different organizations is mr. i enter. what do you make of what you'll hear and did ethiopia come to say, somalia, which has the longest coast in africa, the longest coastline as a, one of the countries in the regions that could provided with the, the access to points that it so desperately needs. i think the effects are very important here, somalia, like all the other neighboring countries, this pc of yeah, has been willing to engage with us on a mutually beneficial all trading arrangement of course and use of the sports that has never been

a problem. the 2nd fact that's critical here is that if you be actually made itself a landlocked country 30 years ago in 1993 when era try again to independence. and the 3rd extremely important fact and context to this debate is that, and if you'll just economy, in fact, grew exponentially bigger when it became after it became a lot of the country. and that's also true for other language countries in africa, life books want to. so the notion that you're impacted economically by lack of access to the sea has absolutely no grounds. okay, let me bring in math and brighten in nairobi. as i mentioned, it has been a lot of condemnation. somalia said that this would amount to illegally occupying parts of the country. the arab league has quoted a violation of international nor is it as well. is it certainly a violation of international norms and standards relate the unity and territorial

integrity of states in something with the african union? united nations considered to be in principal sac percentage. but that doesn't mean that they have not been a new countries inside. many new countries of america since the end of the, the cold war and 1989 and 90. so the recognition of new state is also something fairly common. and although it's, it's a difficult process and certainly a controversial one. i'm some money land is it has been defacto and autonomous polity since 1991. so 33 years, which is longer than it was united with somalia was made defendant state before. ready it is united with some of you and some of the land as well, has a stronger case for independence, legally and politically speaking than countries like eritrea and south sudan that has been recognized by the african union and united nations. so it's not completely

beyond the pale that some of them could be seeking independence, the recognition, but it doesn't have the consent of the metric, paul, of the parents, the country as it were somalia and the issue. and so for that reason, i think we're seeing a very high level of controversy and elevated the tempers of rhetoric on all sides of this issue. yeah, that's a very interesting point. then let me put that to mr. ma move is ethiopia willing to the wedding, isn't very clear, but is a ppo p. a willing to recognize somali labs as a sub for a nation in return for access to this port. uh, well, uh, mr. blanch of the fact to uh, resolve the actions of the parts the demand to be independent by so while i'm to has been a long standing christian. it has been almost, uh no. well that sweetie kid has somebody that does be needing some pipe. so,

and the long before they've gone to the colony as well. so not so my landlord's independence will a colony, you know, that it has been recognized by the subject categories. then after the jury and the unit again, i just took it saw in terms of standing a little would see the start with the kid who's into a hold of somebody else. so no, it's the process of calling for, for independence. and i see that there's a lot of strong ground us uh for the trip. and for me to have the categories to go into, so my legs on it as a good at that point, you do a being google knows it. okay, that this does go through the process. okay. it sounds like you're saying that if you, if you would recognize somebody that as an independent nation, mr. i and to we've heard from various senior advisors to the somali government saying that they are prepared to go to war over this issue. can somebody of really afford a conflict with

a country like ethiopia that spends 3 times as much on its military? but well, 1st of all, i think it's important to say here that in fact it's the if you get the, the aggressor not somalia, somalia is simply trying to defend its sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity under which it has every right to defend. so by all means possible, and as the smart of leadership have said repeatedly, their 1st choice is certainly not a military choice. it is diplomatic toys. never try and had a way, sorry to interrupt your miss diane, to because you are speaking about a different magic choice. the somali government has also said that they do not want to mediation when others have also to mediate that what they need is for this memorandum of understanding between ethiopia and some of the line to be a null and void. well, that's correct. and that is because if someone comes to your house and claims parts of it, you want to negotiate a way out of that. you will kick them out of your house 1st and then you will talk

about why they did this in the 1st place. so i think that's an important element here. and also another key element to add to this discussion is that what do you feel seeking is not only the commercial port. they made it very clear that they want a naval base in the territory. that is not only a, an annexation of part of somalia, but it is actually an occupation and intent to occupy another country unless remember that if you'll be did that 15 years ago with disastrous consequences. we have also about precisely because you feel you did that 15 years ago, and they're trying to repeat the same mistake again. this time with probably greater consequences. and i do want to talk about what one of these tensions could mean for all should bob and somebody for the fires against alice. you bob bought mr . muhammad, if i can come to you with a point that d i n t a was making wine. does ethiopia needs a navy when it is a land lock country? well, thank so much as you know that you see the a, the one such as, you know,

last week, oh no, no, no problem. the cop uh is, is independent. give us w t. as we speak each up at the campus and military is, isn't somebody out of for a peacekeeping mission the same as to resolve them and they, but, and come to this. uh, do you want me to think of them the start of the piece into how did you uh so uh, this is a very uh bogged move info. is that the one which russell will so my life really buys it. so i don't see any way that it's going to attempt to so mind that because right, even though so my left for the peace keeping keeping region. so i don't see any problem. we just as long as on for the video situation, you know what's going on with the vision. it's been mostly as and you know that they've been a funny concert is nothing. i think i called the topic. i'll continue to, i think bins as the, the, the neighboring countries as you know. so why is it very especially suspicious when it comes for me trip? yeah. well, we show the same community that we showed us in both the ok and these are very

positive. what is just what the subject of the digit? okay, mr brian is going to start with the permissions. all right, mr. brighton, there's been condemnation from other red c neighbors, including egypt and eritrea. are they afraid of ethiopia, having naval access to the red sea? well, i think it's true that i'm sure egypt and any therapy i have been strategic competitors, if not adversaries for, for decades. and a, in just the last few weeks, if you, uh, egypt has withdrawn from negotiations with the po, can be done over the management of the crime. detailed and renaissance done, which is to control part of the, the headwaters of the nile river, which egypt considers as a central to its wellbeing as prime minister ab yeah, i'm going to be feel guessing just to consider access to the sea. so we see an escalation tension between egypt and the field here over the night of the waters

and egypt, therefore, apparently a lining itself, which is kemati in a different dispute. this one over some of the land of the same time eritrea, although it cooperated with b. c. open government in its war on the degree region of northern ethiopia relations between the 2 states ethiopian era tray. i have now deteriorated to the point that some of the servers even fear, the conflict between the 2 countries could be in, in the near future could be possibility. and so perhaps our tre is also concerned and is now offering butare support to somalia. so there's certainly a polarization, the regional level between these, these blocks of countries. but at the same time, i think it's surprising that this issue is already reached the level of militarization. and to characterize ethiopia as an aggressor in somalia is

a very sudden and unexpected development. ethiopia has thousands of troops in southern somalia, protecting the federal government and its members stays against. i'll shut up and somebody has not even listed right in their lead. yeah. so do you not see that somalia is justified then in cooling, if you, if you an aggressive well on the one hand, somali is not asking you to open troops to leave southern somalia. on the other hand, it's calling it an aggressive for an next thing. and part of the territory in the money land, which in fact is a lease or a concession. now the historically, ethiopia obtained a concession in some other land and but a several years ago. 20 percent stake in the management of that report to which somalia raised no objection. so it's not clear why several years ago, almost a decade. ethiopia, or somalia rather consented to ethiopia as a colon management of bet, better port. but now is raising an objection to

a lease arrangement on the symbolic coast. let's face it, military, leases and foreign countries and nothing new in the international system either. okay, mr. i enter, would you like to respond to this? yeah, for size, the 1st of all, as i said earlier, um the reason why the smaller government has never objected to the better. very important deal was simply because there was no problem um would between small yeah . need to be at when it comes to commercial. um engagements and trade between the 2 countries and small you consider the better buy for deal as part of that. but now comes to other strings that are too dangerous for small. the one is annex asian on of a territory. and another is a naval base. and a 3rd one is the recognition of parts of somalia. that is what is unacceptable now i think so and invitations to the field in which is in somalia, i think it's important to say that yes, they are part of

a broader peacekeeping mission. but if, if you will be, it takes the next, the steps and moves ahead with these m o. u. i think the somali government has all the tools at its disposal, including asking the field and forces to lead somalia, when it's appropriate. all right, mr. muhammad, as we've been talking about, if you, if you and troops are in somalia as possibly international task force has been fighting algae. bob, the us special envoy for the horn of africa said that this agreement is being weaponized by the um, groups that they have seen troubling indications that all sure bob is using it to to generate new recruits. are you worried that what your p a has been fighting for in somalia and fighting against all she bought that these huge international efforts could be on the mind. uh no. well uh i think is the other way. uh, just to do the continuation off of uh, the normal uh,

uh, into vision uh each of the has the, the name of the company is malia. so having the neighbor, the best is going to think of then uh uh, as far as like getting this i'll show up. we also have a stronger so my life who can also joining fighting, i'll show up and also it was. so i don't see, i don't see, uh, uh, that much fuel coming from, i mean, it goes the, something's the same thing that's happening. uh, you know, before i just happened, i've shipped uh what other products was standing up on the division in but off and also my do that for almost see the kid is me. the either from the, from the give them does come through and how to do so. so i don't, i don't see why owners know which becomes an issue that when and nobody in the country like you to back comes in uh, support this uh for mutual benefits. it becomes an issue. i don't even think i show

up as a big issue in this, unless some people are using this for products. got those. but there's nothing new . let's. uh, let me uh, let, let me put that to you since you are in somalia, do you share, you know, the us concerns that this deal by emboldening groups in somalia could really undermine regional security. yes, of course. i mean, in fact, as i said earlier, i also the, the most menacing terrace group in the heart of africa today is there precisely because of an earlier, if you look in the invasion, i think this will help a, you know, also by recruiting a lot more people and it will tap into a reservoir of, of nationalistic fervor in small yes, but beyond that also it's almost certainly going to lead to a broader regional interest ability with other countries getting involved. because this will be seen as a threat to peace and security in the region. and you know, for you don't get to do that when it's hosting the, asking the union,

which its own doctor says that no member state should be infringing on other member states. a sovereignty really is on, you know, unfathomable, and in so many ways or i, it's mister bright and you spoke any or of the many different interests at play. here. the port would be managed by and ross he company and we've seen the united arab emirates trying to increase its influence in the region. it supports various groups in yemen. on the other side of the gulf is aiden. do you see this? do you see that, you know, i should of and what's playing any pods here in trying to increase its influence and the gulf of 8 and to access that t shipping version of the red sea and suez canal. i don't think we yet see the influence of the united or whatever it's in, in this deal between small underneath the via the u. a administers

manages much of a port to better better and some of the land as part of a previous arrangement. but what e c o b a seems to be angling for as, as of his speech has upset is, is more of a military base to the west of, but about a, independently of this m r i t concession. so i think we're looking at a, a piece of territory that would be administered or controlled by you feel you're under the terms of the lease that characterizing that as an ex ation, i think, is just overblown. this would be a concession, a lease agreement. and according to the terms of the m, o u, which nobody's seen, would told, we should expect it to be a 50 year concession. now the, the issue here is it easy, okay? or probably doesn't have the means of the moment to mean to build a naval base or a port, or the infrastructure and connecting such a facility to these european homebound. so for their, i think we should expect that as of a be looking for financing abroad. what does that come us from the emeralds or

china or some other close parts of the field? yeah, i don't think we can speculate at this stage. okay, mr. mohammed, we know the total of the took rival has taken on if you appear economically, politically to that is looking for financing is it also looking is ethiopia also looking to divert attention away from the problems it was as a result of the, to drywall from the conflict that's now happening in the i'm high region. well the, the, the, the situation needed to base is now getting better. now when, when a better start, when you're done well before, there's no reason that we never got the issue. this is a clear need. 42 bath 12 and direct access. i like the other 5 said i don't see where the calculation comes. that like the company is more developing to it does not have access to data sheet. we know how much we're paying them for you. oh,

you know, a lot of products that you, i think a lot of money now. so there is no way that these advances toward any other conflict as being of the type of situation where the p situation is no better than the yesterday. and we go, so $12.00 piece one assume or, or laptop says, well i bought it kind of big tank is going to be contradiction. and also what the venue still was there. but in congress, i'm sure you're going to go with those. so mine. yeah, there's, you know, forget that these think, you know what i'm speaking from his backup desk of somebody. one of the biggest features in february will have a huge somebody community, which is part of each other. and also for us are going to benefit also to somebody's and so my them getting to benefit. so now to see piece of the very positive and baltimore which is going for much more benefit. this the, for example, associated with this. yeah, mr. i enter mutual benefit, most of the home with says perhaps with the people of somalia that but is there any way for somalia to see it that way what, what is it going to take for somebody

a to um you know, to de escalate what's happening between the countries, well somebody has drawn the line already added, said that the m o u has to be retracted before any discussion could, could open. and i think somebody has testified to do that simply because, you know, no country can simply violate another country, sovereignty and territory and take 30 and expect that the victim to be e stuff pilot and, and somehow completion in that in that annotation process. here i, i think it's important to highlight that in fact, if your base raising the internal crises, it's not true to say that needs to be more stable today than it was 15 years ago. it's a lot more divided there. or, i mean i region in, i'm how to region any other regional and these will get just default at any point zone just last month. so i don't know where he can get the money to do all of it. all right, mr. i and a, we only have about a minute left in the program,

so i'd like to bring mr. bride in and now what do you think it will take to solve this result? this dispute now, and i think the core issue is actually not between somebody, i need the opiates between somebody and somebody and on small alonda has been functioning as a, as an independent state for the better part of more than, than 30 years. somalia has been a failed and fragile state. it doesn't actually a sort of control over most of its territory is bored as there's space or it sees. so this is a, it's a hypothetical argument. it's a sovereignty in a legal argument. then the issue is, it can somali to appeal to somebody, learn to make the people there, wants to be parts of smaller, or they just going to use the instruments of journey decal sovereignty to try to claim this territory. which, you know, it right now is, is disputed and many of the people in that charge, we don't want to be part of some of that. so this really is about a smallest amount in that dispute and not really bad, a c o p,

which is simply recognizing the state of affairs that has existed for more than 3 decades. that is very interesting. i can see of the i entered doesn't agree, but we have run out of time. so perhaps we can continue to this discussion another day. thank you to all of i guess that is come on. hi, sheet ma moment. and jessica, ethiopia match brighton and nairobi and d i n, t a and kampala, and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website onto 0 dot com. and for further discussion, do go to our facebook page, that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is act a j inside story from me, elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now. the . the siren sounds as ambulances from across

the main island of when she race to rescue people in need. suddenly a warning to halt. there is a $5.00 magnitude come or nearby. we finally arrived at north coast some 30 kilometers south of the, at the center of that week where many elderly people called home, they tell us they were simply shocked at the level of destruction. with so many structures needing to be in susie with one of the highest casualty. counts supplies are so low and it's feared many people are still waiting for rescue. president biden says once a 2 state solution for palestinians and israelis, what does anybody believe it's doable? what this is real for, i'm gonna say it back to us foreign policy and what are the long term consequences for the region and the world? a quizzical look at us politics, the bottom line, or the latest news as it breaks, rethinking control of the prisons will likely help. well,

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available in your favor taps to just set for it and tapped on a new app from out to 0. news that you think is it the claims of all crimes in guns? we had devastating testimonies from civilian society is ready to be committed. summary executions. the of the bulk of this is that which is 0 live from the also coming up. is there any forces pile the area around causes law, just remaining functioning hospital with strikes, 140 promise to needs so thank you.