for all of the presence will likely help. well, this immediate emergency with detailed coverage, the war between the army and p. r. a stuff has the race of the largest displacement among children in the world that's making children and suzanne was on level to being recruited from around the world. the system in russia is beginning discharge some planes of fatigue. no one knows what the limits are. with your ability your opinion, foreign ministers need to discuss them, but the crisis, the were on garza and ukraine, says unity on some issues, but shop division on others. is it possible for the block of 27 states to have a shadow, meaningful foreign policy? this is inside story, the

color there and welcome to the program. i'm this dante, is roswell and garza has a laid back shop divisions within the european union. in contrast to the new unity and swift, extensive action taken against russia after its invasion of ukraine, going back in 1957 as a trade in cloud. the 6 nations. the old e. c has grown into the 27 men, but european union that we know today. trade is now just one parts of the use business with foreign policy and minute traction cool areas for cooperation to. but some might say that often the cause to of disagreement with divergent views and competing national interests. seeking consensus can mean delays and a wharton down final position. critics say this weakens the describe, the influence compared to say the us or china. so tell me you have a cohesive foreign policy, does its present structure need to change to enable that? or could such a change as a even be agreed? we'll be discussing all this and move without guess in just

a few moments. but fast mojave, i'm upset, they were reports on unity and division in the european union for an ministers in brussels with gaza and ukraine on the agenda. they also hoping to reach consensus on how to protect ships from whose he had taken the red sea and to what extent naval forces from the human this might become involved. it's been weeks since the group that governs most of human start to targeting vessels. passing through the above, opened up street, one of the world's most important shipping routes. the who's the say they of techs are in response to east rails 3 months long, military offensive and gaza via text or disrupting world trade, forcing shipping companies to reroute vessels to take much longer voyages around the southern tip of africa. and the many of the many armed forces emphasizes that the response to the american and british of things is inevitably come in and any of

us payments will not remain without a response and punishment. we got the many armed forces assures at the navigation in both radians and rate. seas will continue to build destinations around the world except the pulse of occupied palestine. the u. s. has set up a multinational force, but with limited involvement. this disagreement within the gemini, it should be in friends wanting to send warships to the red sea. but other, you members few becoming involved in what could become a why to regional the a deep is you divisions over israel's will and gaza. the president of the you commission was criticized for her visits to tel aviv at the start of the war when she changed to speak for the whole union in support of israel. gemini, and other states have supported israel. but other members, such as spain and belgium, has been highly critical and long demanded

a ceasefire. to confuse the so these with the hot spots on his own. this will can not be solved with weapons since october 7th, nearly 25000 people have lost their lives on gaza. isn't an extremely odd situation . there's a risk of and diseases the slicing means to stop the use the visions over israel's because of all contrast with swift agreements on action against russia for invading ukraine. but henry blocked a ukrainian funding package and has been backed by the voc yet in demanding e u. policy changes. so with vito powers for member states and 27 different governments involved, the you structure can make finding consensus, a complex and at times is most of the task because my the have a much it bit ultra 0 inside story. the oh, that's not going to, i guess. first up, suzanne lynch. she's the politico news organizations, chief brussels corresponds to joins us now from that. and also learn we have julian

von stacy, the director of the middle east and north africa program of the european council on foreign relations and invalid. and we have been arrows who is the founder and editor in chief of b. any and telling use a business media company focusing on emerging markets. thanks so much for joining us on the inside story. now, when it comes to the war on garza, we know there have been deep divisions as we've just been reporting. but that division is overseas far, it seems from what we're hearing in brussels. there is now some unity of what may happen that the so called day off to even germany now staunch supporter of israel from the beginning is speaking about a 2 state solution. so we're talking about a monthly meeting of u foreign ministers, but they do have some special guests this month. i see. and this of tends to be some kind of draft road map to peace that's going to be discussed. do you need is the use biting for relevance? hill has what happens in the red sea over the last of a while has that pap smears a fire under some you legions. do you think as well,

i think the crisis and god is really expose the, the sense of the relevance of weight and send them, at least on these on there's obviously a lot that was happening in the places where the pressure draft about how important and how relevant here again, suddenly what's happening in the middle east, in regards to the european departments, being at the bottom of the ladder in terms of importance it's, it's the arrow states is there on said ralph in to us and then some way behind to the europeans. you don't really have a position and they don't really bring much to the table. so there are a lot of questions being austin, and then i would question some of the sense of new comparisons behind a 2 state solution try. i'm not somebody naples, symbolic be set for moss for yes. the question is will they do anything to put it in that direction? what do they provide to leverage in terms of their relation to the palestinians with these ratings? we are in the space and there are a huge divisions on the line of sale. so there's a long way to go before we really talk about it. come here in europe and position.

yeah. certainly. sounds like it. well discussing briefly before we move on to, to the broad a situation in gaza, i want to focus a little bit on what's happening on the red sea. now the who sees that have said the actions in the red sea, a direct consequence of the war on garza. but all you find ministers actually making that think from the sounds of things. then it does feel like they're being treated almost a separate issues. a separate issues and i the, i think the definitely link so that the, the hoops ease of being a closing down and, and taking sides the targeting is right ships. but at the same time, the, the letting chinese brushing ships go through and you know, it's my mind, this is a longstanding spirit and the rivalry all 5 relations between that which is and is right is but i mean it's also getting caught up in the, in the wide conflict that we have in here with the show down between,

between russia and the west. china is involved in that as well. and so that they send they, they have been accused of a plane sides of being used as to why the tool and then boots this campaign against the states. so the situation is getting radically more complicated as all the sites is clipping a. let me bring in suzanne, here. she's on. do you think that what's happening in the red sea is perhaps an opportunity to, to find some kind of european unity then on our time issues when they also divided on on the things. i think the issue in the red fee is actually more contentious because within the you, you've got certain member states who have very strong military presence, a very strong defense identity on you. others who are you true, who are not members of nation. so they are certainly not going to want to get involved in anything that they feel as to mid a tree that much escalate the situation. so yes, it's part of the discussion that's happening just across the road for me here in brussels today about at some kind of an you mission in the red sea from germany.

it's we, the 3 biggest countries are spearheading bash, but they already, you know, as their own country, they already have a strong presence there. we've had belgium set, it's going to kind of add a new tackle onto that as well. and the both the discussion is going to be about at making this part of an existing mission, rather than starting a whole new initiative in the red sea. i don't think it's going to be an appetite for that. that e. u level it's not with you is about really, you know, it's, that's kind of more the job of nature or ministry at ally. and so i think that is going to be controversial even though i'd say there it is on the agenda. so let's see. it is, we found some jeremy get sufficient at by, in for that from other countries today. so just to be clear that the naval mission that we're talking about here is separate from the us led naval mission authority taking place in the red sea. that's operation prosperity, guardian, that was a us led mission. but even though a number of you members didn't sign up to operation prosperity, guardian,

and felt like very few if any actually deployed. and i've been wondering that was a capacity issue for the you or was it a political one? was about perhaps the us leadership that we wish to circle back little bit. i mean, you said in your opinion, i believe it was set up as a trade club and essentially it remains that there, there is no sort of the government to say, i mean, you have people like joseph ro, who's normally the, the foreign minister of it. but he's mandate is only to make firm policy as far as trade is concerned. so the system was extremely well when things are going well in april. it's making money. however, when we come to the crises like this, then there isn't actually a, there's no european army, there's not you. i mean. and so at the end of the day, the member states united, they make southern decision to get involved minutes, how it really and in this case, what they like to do is try and act and unison and acts and represent the you. but at the end of the day is the collection of individual countries make this decision

. and as we saw with the, the us, let's ministry initiative to try and bring the fighting to events. i mean, people are coming in at hall at the level of each nation. and so we have a very confused situation here and i thing, but what will end up happening is individual countries, power minister. everyone's like, like a, like germany may send pauses and they would likes to incorporation with the rest the that they see themselves as a club. but it's not a government, it's not a government that can make a decision. like everybody has to come speech and have a good shape, so to the soldiers or whatever to send them. and so what we're seeing in brussels now is this, this discussion with some friends have made up their minds and they're trying to coordinate with their friends and the you, and then do something with the collected funds. but you'll see only certain countries actually actively participating in each country has a different view is different levels of use yet, as well as i understand the documents around this mission that's been floating around brussels and promises sending. i'm going to get at least 3 warships with

multi mission capabilities and not going happen as early as next month. we've been talking about some of the countries we've been saying they might deploy. my understanding is that those, those countries might then cycle through. you might have all the countries and sending in other ships and then those other countries pulling the ships out. julie, what should we make of all of this? is this all being primarily driven by economic concerns? absolutely. what side of the red sea is about the maritime shipping routes, and it's about keeping them open. that is always a concern enough. and it really do miles to keep the problem in the clothes that will have no card information. in fact, the effect on your so that was driving this half the nature of how it was playing out. i, i think it driven by some of the concessions laid out by, by bad. and then through that, and i think, you know, fundamentally the europeans want to do some kind of monitoring mission here. that pushes invitation. but i don't think that real desire is to get engaged with the

same kind of military offensive dimension that the americans have a personal here. i think that's one of the key divisions as well. i mean, sold out in the, in the part in golf. com years ago after rain attacks as well. the europeans believe that they can take a more middle ground position that allows them to keep the space on the risk, drawing them into the same level of complaint that the americans are bound box you on the original complex. where obviously there's a lot of concern about the dangers of this bar. the out of control of costs will see that. then let me ask you, do you have a sense of, of, if the us a tool was in consultation with it. so you realize before deciding to take those, those strikes on who's the positions and yeah, and obviously they're having huge concerns about escalation and the you is directly involved given the, the, the, the geography and the suez canal. what, what conversations are going on right now between washington and brussels. so yeah, i think there are definitely conversations going on, particularly between national count. those are those big countries you mentioned to

have already sent, you know, mid a tree help. so from germany that initially the g 7 countries on the age of which is also based here in brussels, but not on you members state most of them, but not all of our members of visual their conversations happening there as well. so yes, there are conversations going on about this, but the u. s. has been said already the, the block is not going to decide at to send a military mission into the red sea because certain countries are going to block at the neutral countries and are going to block that. they don't want to escalate the situation. but, you know, i'd say here, there will be an willingness by some countries to go doc bit further. and you're right, you mean the geography here is interesting. the was right beside this port economically that affecting all of the, the west different countries including the us. but i do think that the us perspective here is very much waiting on an opinion here and both of them. that's because there's a growing frustration of mobile number. one is not doing enough to persuade israel

to stop the advancement guy, but it's a fit for the past. and it is significant that today we have the as really foreign minister here in brussels. we're also going to have a senior palestinian. they're not going to meet, but we also have the foreign ministers of saudi arabia, egypt, that is very unusual to have that mixture of people here today. so it's showing that the you does want to shape events even though it's not going to come forward with this huge ministry capability. is that at the moment it's 27. it's, it's collective ways that it can try and politically bring some pressure, particularly on israel, and to maybe restrain a bit more. i think it's been a lot of consternation. i've had to comment from benjamin netanyahu in the last few days about not wanting it to states vision. even though i've been said, you know, people have lost faith in the idea of the 2 states vision. that is the official policy of the i'm the united states. so for nothing yahoo to come out and say the public day. i think people are worried here that the us is not using the influence that everyone knows it has an israel effectively enough. and that's why the was

trying to get these senior figures around the table and trying to kind of effect a bit more change. that's really interesting. as the desktop has mounted and as us will has continued, we have seen some distinct shifts in the rest of week from some you need is in my call noticeably the french president, julian, are you seeing and hearing that elsewhere? well, i think as soon as that it says there's a lot of frustration that unhappiness with which the the, the recent statements by netanyahu holding out the prospect of a palestinian state and the political track. there's always play immense concern about the death tall, 25000 palestinians deal now, but there are still huge divisions and i don't think the europeans are coming to a place where they're really gonna push together. you have a number of states quoting 1st, age 5, saying that this have to well now, but you have a number of very important states that john is the also, it is a hung evans who continued to prolong a meaningful push against these ratings from the european perspective,

so until you don't have that unity amongst the 27, it ready to have the t o o d u as a whole to push for the line here. i'm sure i am one of the americans of the arabs, thanks to put pressure on the, on these raised on the, on the palestinians. bureau is coming out very loudly at the moment. he's making some bold statements about what needs to be done and the drive is on the causes of the problem. but he very much speak for themselves as opposed for the 22nd. i think that's what we seem to be reading as of the european position. yeah, you mentioned burrell that i was looking at some of his comments today, and they're increasing the, the timing of that is increasing the critical of israel. on monday he said, when he was talking about a 2 state solution and, and this and yahoo is pushed back on that. he said, what are the other solutions they have in mind make over palestinians leave kill all of them. the way they have destroying a mouse is not the way to do it. the ceiling hates for generations, and that's, that's a really, really strong statement says on. do you think we're getting some insights here and

to browse personal views on the company? yeah, if you did interesting figure, he's a use top diplomatic. he just is spanish. he's from a socialist and background, so he is very, he's always be more on the pro palestinian side. and he won't say that for me with that about 3 hours. it's not a surprise when he's coming out with those statements, but i think it does get to the problem with even foreign policy. who speaks for the you? because in the of all of these institutions that are around me here at brussels, you've got to your pink time. so you've got the, you've got the european commission with different people heading those institutions . so we saw 1st of underlying the european commission present, committed strongly at the beginning for israel. then we have yield brown, who's based, or a couple of doors down st. something completely different. so this is the problem for the when it comes to foreign policy, there isn't somebody who is the president of europe who's speaking for europe. now on this issue, we're seeing big divisions, i think, personally and politically between, for example of underlying

a german politician and burrell. a spanish politician at from different political traditions so that that is and filtering down among members states as well. and i think that as adding to this sense of incoherence on friday, they are not in agreements, germany is still on a very, very different page than belgium. spain in ireland, and we saw this in the way in to the meetings this morning here in bravo, some very different statements from foreign ministers. i don't see how that's going to be resolved if anything, this, and in current conflict in the middle east is just underscoring the divisions that are off in the you about this topic. suzanna the divisions that we're talking about that primarily relate to, to the war on gaza. and i'm wondering about whether those divisions are replicated when it comes to, to dealing with the, the red cn and dealing with the cookies and, and the conflict and, and yeah, and then, and whether or not those are being linked, then let me ask you, if you will take on that, which i mean in particular is an extremely difficult position. i mean,

they've been treating this whole trouble, this whole problem with, with kid gloves, because, particularly on the line and came out and made very strong statements. but technically, it's for us to go around to make for our policy or represent the, the, you as a party and i'm obviously, and that she was encroaching in. so his tears drinking and indeed has stopped. i think some 800 members of us stop complains and formerly publish this next is saying that she should back home. but obviously germany doesn't want to open ourselves to the child's and 90 semitism given the legacy of the 2nd level. and so that being very, very cautious. but um, as calling from from police go was saying, you know, the divisions within your multi folder. everyone has a different position. and like i said before, it comes back to the fact that, you know, there is no sort of government to you that there's no unity, the, any decision that he make has to be approved by all 27 members. and so everyone has veto on it. and so it's hurting caps basically to get anything out. and when you

have a crisis like this and a difficult one with lots of very sensitive suffix, uh, the effect director, you members face different advice then getting it consensus extremely difficult. and at the end of the day, i think coming back to the ministry action the, you know, your passcode continues to sell to under the us security. i'm about to invest in compliance and the american side that people are not paying enough. they don't mention that to beset gdp commitments. and again, here we are in a situation where ministry's code for because the red sea and that channel the suicide canal attempted send a bubble try, it goes through the goes, it ends up in the mediterranean. so for the you this crucial, crucial try and they need to keep it open somehow. but what's happening is that i think the americans take the leads and that the now saying that, but our interests are expected here. so we have to get them both somehow and then when we do that, we're going to try that to this team. but getting the team to,

to old, you know, sit in the same direction. this is pretty good. all right, and then you say it's like having cats or these cats have, they are in different concerns at home. julian, how much do you think these positions that we're seeing within the you are being driven by domestic interest? so i think uh, specifically the, the huge amount to, to which kind of we can talk about these paid off domestic politics. i think the red sea is different, and i think actually there's probably a lot on unity on that issue of domestic lima leaders about the need to respond and for the europeans, the staff thought will be at the divisions about how did i mention of military use but, but on the placement of domestic politics and in germany, austria, it goes back to the historical legacy of the 2nd. well, who you have state right? spain. unintelligible the above background of a paid coach. the palestinian across or obviously has a large uh population with, with links to them. at least i mean, a lot of these are the issues that are playing out in domestic politics. they're

very much shaping the narratives and the debates. and then i'm pushing a different leave is impressions on, on leaders? i mean, i guess the sold it for somebody that was my front shift from it, from his rate position at the beginning of towards him or towards the code for each fire. so absolutely, there's a strong having a domestic politics here in that. com be of course to so i'm gonna be elections coming up to europe in 5 minutes. elections. all of that is feeding into that debate. so given the amount of domestic pressure to try to find some kind of resolution one way or the other from all the different, the different people and populations we're talking about. in the i'm wondering about how much influence the you actually has to, to affect any kind of change at the moment. julian, let me ask you about the amount of leverage you might think that the you has, particularly with the palestinians. there was a send a huge amount of age of the palestinian authority. is it primarily 3 battle,

or is there a broader conversation here with all the rest of the regional actors of working is 2 things. this doesn't mean you get gentlemen card, which is obviously yours tradition, strep thing. they give a huge amount of a to the p a, the kind of signal 30. they're also israel largest trading, not know. so that, that gives them a lot of info to the account. but the question is, are they willing to, to politically deploy that? and they say, well then that wouldn't be good to. it's because the conversations we have with the, say, the americans, i mean, then the europeans are bring something to the table. the they might be able to use in partnership with other states to the european position on the policy in the united issue on these right. issues that divide it about the issues of means and no one really takes them seriously. i certainly don't print the military might to that, to the table because of the divisions amongst the 27. there's no unified political stance or given the search for relevance here, as we were talking about it at the beginning and, and the,

the need for the you to try to find some kind of, of career in stance on this. let me all series on, do you think any kind of a reform is likely to try to create some kind of infrastructure for that to be a more coherent foreign policy position? is there a conversation going on around that? what would that even look like? so yeah, there has been a conversation with us and there always has been a, by the need to add at the moment you need unanimous agreements from other countries to agree. serious issues are in foreign policy. so it means one country can block things. and that's a lot of people thought a year ago. you know, that needs to be changed because hungry was talking about a policy on, on russia and ukraine. now how that would happen would be very complex because you have $3.00 fees, and you would have to change that 3 g and that could trigger a referendum in some countries like the netherlands, ireland, at, for example. and people don't want to do that. so they're trying now to find a way within the treaty that reopening all the meat of text at there's

a few little options you could do that could change the rules around this. but then i think that again, made it, it was, that was an easier conversation on russian ukraine when basically everyone agrees except one country with now with the middle east. you've got so many divisions on this and that some countries will be comfortable with the idea that this can be ran through. they want this debate, they won't be able to restrain the you if they don't agree with some ways it's going on the middle east. so look foreign policy then apart from that, you've got the ministry dimension. that is very, very tricky because somebody because of the european army. but some countries will not agree with that. they will say that's not the job of the use of trading block and, and they will be show that. so yes, it's a discussion boards. i think this actual divide over the middle east has made it the less likely not more likely that the you is going to move towards the unified foreign policy given. that's the case, then let me give you the law. say here is the using influence and leverage in the region, given the deep divisions that we see and that we'd like to see i think it is.

i think these in trouble that the boys restroom, particularly cutting up the gas cheap gas, the pilots, the whole of the particular germany, which then pilot, everyone else has been a huge problem and that is suffering economically. politically to, i mean his son is so you know, to be divided as a to not be consistent. the whole underlying thing backing is ro when, when other parts of the, the we're, we're backing that assign our lease coordinate for a ceasefire. has shown up to the rest of the world. the global south is looking at all of this and the same, we'll let you keep talking about values, but push comes to shove, be just pursuing our interest. so doing what the americans, so each to and so it's, it's being taken less seriously as a result on the subject of form though that's going to have to happen. and the issue there is, if, if you crane is admits it's the you then

a 3rd of what the does as a combination of cultural published. and that's the amounts of money that you find will be in time for you to either come on under kind of rules. mean the you budget was cops, whole funding of e is going to have to be changed. and so is this serious about letting you grind? it seems they are, then that has to be this reform and it needs to be rude brands to come in. a culture policy needs to be done in the voting system. everyone's very unhappy with that. think that's but it's effective date so that everyone gets also hungry is being exercised. so how do you actually do? it's because you have to have a unanimous agreements to make these changes to who is good and i don't see how it can be done. it won't be done, but a lot of a sudden it sounds like it's a moment of reckoning as suddenly self reckoning full of the european union been iris. suzanne lynch. and julian von stacy, thank you so much for joining me here today on inside story and thank you to for watching. remember, you can see this program again any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com

and prefer the discussion to go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also always join the conversation on x. so handle is at a inside story for me in as soon as you pay and the whole team here. and uh huh. i said that the there's a lot of worry from any of us that what's going to come from this ultimately is a few half measures that don't really do a darn thing for communities on the ground. and i just want to say, you know, of the 4 largest agricultural academies in the world. the us is the only one that's the last pair quantity is use banded china. it's banded for sale, expanded and use double here in the last 10 years. and you know, quite frankly, let's just follow the lead of the rest of the world here and get rid of hair quite

once a problem. the is around the military. again, tom gets con, units in 7 guys. i. the palestinian red. preston says it's headquarters has been hit the club. this is all just the or life from go home for you back to the also coming up the, the worst day for he's really soldiers since the war began. it needs 24 have been killed in a single day and god is really forcing.