if i'm not reporting, i want to leave this and it was really a formatting thoughtful this coverage and there's no reason to target the journal on her. it's voices and i'm part of the patient. please connect with our community and tap into conversations you will find elsewhere be that women are delivering babies in the shelters in the rubble of their own homes. and this is unacceptable. the stream on out to 0, it was a raging around the world. many assessing fees against, with, with both supplying alms to countries. i suppose the united nations has been accused of weakness, paralyzed by vito's help by the magic powers. so because these global conflicts turn into a 3rd world war, this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm told mccrae, their global conflict has been avoided since 1945 and the end of world war 2. and it's horrors of the holocaust, and atomic bombs dropped on japan by the us. so much of today's international political architecture, such as the united nations, stands from the optimal foamed by world late is determined. such a disaster would never happen again. yet conditions comparable to those in world war 2 are being suffered by many people today, such as and gone. so you try and sit down, given me in my, in central africa dimension both a few. and in recent years, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed or injured and serial to be a rock and afghanistan as a result of foreign military action. often with eastern whist backing different sides. but up until now, there's been no outright fighting between russia, ro, china, or in the us, but serious conflicts, all stand offs between the allies around going united nations peace making if it's

have frequently been limited by deadlock and the security council. so is there a real danger of such global conflict? a rough thing into a 3rd world war will be asking out this, this question and many more in just a few moments. but the 1st image in kimball reports on with the current flash points of a cottage and destruction on an unprecedented scan. and garza with a 100 size and people either dead or injured president joe biden said from the outset israel's will on going to the us did not want conflict escalate to other countries. despite sending weapons and warships get its impact is being felt across the region. with concern scrubbing that it could spread. this is an incredibly the volatile time in the middle east. i would argue that we've not seen a situation as,

as dangerous as the one we're facing now across the region since at least 1973. and arguably, even though even before that, linked to israel's goals of war and neighboring jordan, 3 us soldiers were killed in a joint strike blamed on a rainy and box miniature. and the rock that still recovering from the catastrophic war, launched by the west 21 years ago, uninstalled and 11 on the right impact on group hezbollah, quickly joined to fight with ongoing exchanges of follow up with these ready forces across the board a. another group i like to we were on the who cheese in yemen is attacking western coal go ships saying it's a retaliation. israel's war and goals and support the palestinians. the us and u. k. have the gun booming yemen in response to the new list of the list is the us together with a u. k. and some of their other allies have violated and trampled on all conceivable norms of international laws. including the un security council

resolution, which only called for protecting commercial navigation. nobody authorized anyone to call me. i met with a new excuse with the host in europe, as nato in western states continue to send weapons and financial support to ukraine . 2 years after russia's invasion, their fee is the complete could spread across the continent. countries in europe has been increasing that minute tree preparedness with long time mutual, finland joining nato and mutual sweden place to doing the same. leaving east the us in china. they've been carrying our military exercises in the south china sea, with intensifying focus on to i one, the beijing claims as the pulse of its territory to be taken by force if necessary . and there is rising tension on the korean peninsula with north korea's lead. kim jones saying unification is no longer a possibility in size, korea and japan, strengthening the military forces. well, russia has become a strong ally of p on young since its invasion of ukraine. conflicts also raging

elsewhere with war and see done and volatility inside sea. done that follows the war and neighboring ethiopia as t gray region in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed and were attentions remain high. with more confrontations, pitching east directly against west many, and i questioning whether the world sliding to will to white global conflict along with the hora that would bring imaging kinda out 0 the inside story. the again, let's bring in now this now and you york is chris hedges for the middle east bureau chief of the new york times and the prize winner and building and u. k. scott lucas is a professor at university college dublin and it's a will view that provides news and analysis through those facing conflict to provision and change. and invasion. quite y'all, henry along is the founder and president of the st of to china and globalization,

and a full the counselor to china state council, which is china's cabinet. thank you very much for your time. and to joining us here on inside story. if we could start broadly and then uh, focus and drill down on the specific conflicts that are happening around the world at this point in time. chris of, i can begin with you. what do you make of the premise that with sliding inevitably towards world war 3, i don't know that anything is inevitable, but these conflicts are very dangerous because whatever the intentions and i don't think that it ran as by law or the united states seat, a regional conflict of buy, exacerbating tensions within the regions through strikes, some town or strikes. whether that's an yeah man with us in a rack. whether that's in southern lebanon, you propel yourself closer and closer to a conflict. i think what concerns me is american most is that the inner circle

around joe biden, that's anthony blinking jake sullivan, and brad mccork have no real understanding of the middle east. in the case of blinking, he sees the middle east through the lands of the net and yahoo government, none of them speak arabic, none of them are particularly familiar with the culture of the history or the, even the grievances. that's when we saw blinking, essentially go around and try and allow the error of leaders to take palestinian refugees from gaza. um it just shows how tone that fee is. all of these people are strong, militarist sullivan, of course, stoking the tensions primarily with china. uh and uh, but, but uh, but bite and himself who was calling for war with the rack 5 years before the us invaded. and that's what worries me the most. it's this kind of in confidence, historical, linguistic, cultural, i would say, even political illiteracy. and then the ability to bypass congress to not only

funnel weapons, billions and weapons to sustain the genocide in gaza, but carry out strikes. whether that's and yeah, man or rack or anywhere else, essentially without consulting congress. so from an american perspective, this is a very dangerous development in, within the state department and the intelligence community, many people consider what these 3 people around biden are doing as very ill advised and very dangerous. so this incompetence is something that worries me tremendously battle, especially the longer that the conflict in gaza continues and i don't see any, any science within the body ministration that they have any intention of stop it. indeed, they spend most of their time in jerusalem and we are indeed we heard the blinking and the story we played at the beginning of the show basically side of the world is more dangerous now than any time in the last 50 years. scott,

do you believe those woods? do you see it the same way? yeah, i don't like to use terms like rules or 3 or even cold war to point out for 2 reasons . the 1st is it leads to exaggeration, which means we mess working at each case on an individual basis. and secondly, it leads to sweeping generalizations to blame a particular group like chris is just on. what i would point you to is to say, well, we have had a series of conflicts around the world for some time. but the stakes have been raised in the past few years, probably by 3 count. it was. the 1st is before the current israel cause a conflict. we saw the bloody repression of movements across the middle east, especially in syria, where the establish a back by russian killed hundreds of thousands of people. secondly, we saw the russian invasion of, uh, ukraine. in february 2022 and then of course we have some offices, mass killings,

and his real followed by israels mass killings that continue on a daily basis. killing tens of thousands and gaza. and each of those flash points, each of those cod list can be used by various actors. not just the us can be used by russia can be used by trying that can use by someone else to push their local power plays. and when you have an intersection of different conflicts, let's say between israel draws of syria, iran and iraq. then you have the possibility that a particular conflict can expand it to the region and then beyond. all right, and henry, i thought to get the sense of what it is like in china, it feels like in the west there has been in recent, dies more and more talk of this concept of world war 3 being closer than ever before. is there any tool concern within china or of this? well, i think, absolutely. i think that's uh, you know, even though this just seems to be that far from china,

but actually the sleepy effect to china old. because china, uh, you know, being the largest rating of nation. well we, we have to actually have any dependent on those, the traffic and those, uh, you know, oceans shipping and the zip code. excellent. so uh, what i see is the, the ward is really catching more doctors are great. what is getting what dangers and more risky and uh, i mean i was told to, to level 1st i think there's a, there's uh, you know, all those uh, regional issues because we're getting the multi puddle word and then there's no multiple or system to suspend. so we see that, you know, the 1st low cost as if then there's a lot of religious conflicts, you know, spread around them, you know, because the russian $1.00 credit is one example. but also way of seeing these are kind of stanley is your company, which is which is where the deputy and the spray all are you fact and this is getting home and lodging and affecting all the vehicle. jim, you,

as you can jump ready, i know you'd ronnie to 5, but i'm, but i'm, that's good to spill over even more countries and i, you'll see the whole war disrupted, trade and everything. so the 2nd i think was mostly what is the, is the present. there's no trust between the major powers and the people. i remember contract, but you would basically is not really walking together. i'm not really, i think probably the company that one of the main reason that the more categories act together to really maintain is still going to be an older. so i mean, we have to really think about how we come into this piece that mean like china, as you just don't like easily why this doesn't accomplish that type of work. you somebody, you know, have a high level, somebody's and the really, let's go come to the tape and talk about, rather than, you know, we, we, we see we're the only one country back and forth. and that's really about help. so we, we need to really think hard and find a solution to is going crises. yeah, i don't think many people would disagree that to trust is probably at as low as point if a between the major players here. chris,

if i can go back to your you're of obviously sky thing about by the president biden . and the us as handling of what has happened in gaza since october the 7th, but it's almost on a daily basis. dive said that they don't want this war to escalate to broad and out into a, in a, into a regional war. but since then we have seen it creep to more and more countries, whether it's human or live and on and to and to other countries like that. what the siding is very different from what they are doing. isn't that? and yeah, because the war could not be sustained without us munitions, which of come in by the 10s of thousands of the tank shell. ready so the artillery shells everything else is produced in the united states. they have of course, a veto, the cease fire resolution. so on the one hand, they want it contained on the other hand, they fuel the conflict. uh and that of course is

a contradiction in terms of goals. if you want to mitigate the possibilities of a regional conflict, you have to and the genocide that is realized currently now in gaza. and i would say that, you know, the arrow bruising countries like egypt in particular because they don't want to see this escalate. but of course, within the street, i just came back from the lease, in fact, was in doha visiting the 0. uh, the anger is, is uh it is quite wide spread and quite palpable. uh and, uh and, and uh, so yeah, so i, i blame the bye. didn't ministration for not using his leverage. it has the leverage. but because congress has bought and paid for by the israel lobby, it's not going to use it. there's a political cost that by and doesn't want to pay. and so we're lo, we're watching a situation now where there's widespread famine,

$500000.00 standing ends are at the start ration level infectious diseases are spreading, palestinians are eating grass. 90 percent of them are on the house. many living in the open under the rain of the winter range. i mean, this is just staggering in terms of the catastrophe that has but the, the amount of terry and catastrophe that has been orchestrated in a quite rightly triggers a reaction. remember, human itself suffered like this 400000? i think. yeah, my knees died during the war and siege led by saudi arabia and what with the full backing of the united states. so of course they're reacting because they understand . but yes, it's, i really think the blame lives at this moment with washington for not intervening and using the power that has to end of this conflict. earliest bring out a, bring forth a ceasefire, a prolong pause. okay, is going to,

is this whole the united states bolt the, the, the prolonged killing on a daily basis of palestinians? and does that because, i guess, backed unilaterally, is royal. and do you think that the conflict and guys are in, in the middle east at this point in time, is the one that's most likely to guess the sprint further and potentially escalate to become a world war? i mean, i agree with chris in a sense and not been a scaling critic of american actions in recent months because they're not using play rich to try to pull this rarely spot. but one of the problems we have in water commentary is, is it's only about the united states. it needs to your white and out. and let me give you 2 examples for this real causal. the 1st is, is that the us along with much the international community did try to hold the net and yahoo or cabin back from our ground defensive. they tried to hold them back from an expensive bombing campaign. after october 7th, and at the end of the day,

you have to say that the agency, the decision to go out without all out campaign that mass killing us like joslet, is where these railer workshop is not that the us told them to do. so the us didn't want this to happen. but the 2nd example i think is pertinent is that there are others in the region, not just the u. s. are involved and there are others who will take advantage of this for their own purposes. so for example, the who, the rebels who control much of the young are attacking commercial shipping in the red sea. all the guys are supporting causes, but also to advance their legitimacy, their power in the area you're wrong, which has serious domestic problems, is trying to use the regional conflict just like what were the head of the axis of resistance. and that is leading to increase compensations, not only between iran and israel and got between the iran back melisha who were fired on us personnel. so there's a kaleidoscope of actors. i think we have to get insight and very quickly on your question. i think the real cause of jim conflict can definitely expand to be original war because of all this. but also don't forget the russians and they

should do credit to expand across europe. if line recruiter continues to pursue that idea of an expansion is policy to not back put the west and nato as well as to try to control keep yeah, well, the united nations was effectively set up to try and prevent the conflicts like this. and especially then, so bring them from spreading even so that many critics of the united nations have basically said that week, the paralyzed by the major powers using veto is constantly. henry, what do you think needs to happen to the united nations? you were talking about, you know, the major powers coming together. but i mean, what is the likelihood of that actually happening? and even if you could get them in the same room, how openly are they going to be able to talk and actually find any solutions here? well i think actually we probably need also, you know, reform you wouldn't be as, but i think, you know, maybe that's got a majority vote or something, you know,

i mean come down to that and then we kind of, i'll just, uh and you know, have one country vito, for example, i mean the last time when, when china proposed the resolution for about a study and user conflict, i mean you as based on so what, so what does the china actually support that northern, you know, of course they're, they're, there, there's a, there's about china was the rotation, a chair of the, of, of you and i was thinking because having an emotional background that there was quite a do to talking a discussion that i've been trying to even calls on cobra. somebody on this crisis . so i think we need to do that, we need to really have a high level talk and i'm talking about how we can really reform that and, but let's go to the concepts. i think it's important to have the high level of somebody that's got the hands of the specs i've got you like all i can tell

somebody sorry to interrupt again henry scott, i can say, you know, the why they what do you make is of what henry is just had to say a lot thing about the specifics of the us and i think you asked an interesting question and that is, would china support getting rid of the veto power and the security council, which has not only been used by russia to hold up the security council and by the us to hold up security council, but china would have to give up its own veto as well. so certainly you and reform has to involve all major powers, but on a wider issue. and i'd be interested in results on this. where i think us china may be different from the other crises we talked about as it looks like there's a concerted effort by the, by the administration and by china to get back to the rules of the game. whether that's the rules of the game over taiwan, the south china sea, over economic issues, over technical issues in our technological issues, including the issue of espionage. what do you mean the guidance of the other girls

of the day? i know, and i'll refer back to the other issues and the get back to china is, is that with russia and ukraine and in the sense of order across europe, plumber proved violated the rules of the game in a conflict which has been going on since 2014, including russian occupation and part of the country by watching the drug military invasion. that's crossing a red line. her boss broke the rules of the nature with the nature of its attack on israel, on october 7th, because it carried out the mass killing of civilians. and then of course, israel breaks the rules of the game on a day upon day upon day basis. with this indiscriminate war with the us in china after a period of heightened tension in 2022, including over taiwan, including over military issues. there has been an effort in the past year on both sides, including a series of high level meetings, evasion, to say, look, but step back from confrontation. let's agree to live and let live over

a specific issue over china and over broader issues like economic and trade inch. henry, i know you want to jump on the can you just fill simple before you respond to scott? can you just reiterate? would china actually be prepared to give up in space? our pals at the un? no, no, no. i'm not saying that's about having to discuss the default. i mean the desktop, china, i'm just one contact me. we have a whole country talk together. well, i think all of these are part of standard user company. we need to have a higher level of use. somebody that's got the top top leaders going to come to the table. i don't know that you know, it comes on members of congress, i'd say, but i think the what the problem but what, what we see happening, i'm rushing you printing more at all or the across the entire street. well what, what, what do we see of the, how does that mean gives you a conflict is basic and the last to trust of the, of the major powers. and then the reason for that is that some countries are, you know, actually pursue a lot of the policy, you know,

with the copy of the risk and whatever. so that really quite a lot of these trust. and also uh, you know, what, what was the start when the, when the cold war ended, i mean the, also the toner as long as i got stuff to be happening on the phone. i think the music choice of the major powers natural as regular complet gladto that stood as regional. yeah. you know, a disabled ice. so basically the problem is, is advise, you know, major countries. we have all the major challenges that table and talk and i've got to be normalized in relation. that's the most important thing, not view each of those added be right re. i mean, if the major part b on each of those live re, uh, you know, add them, you know, how come they may be solved the original problem where they have the poppy war and whatever. you know, that's really very bad. yeah. it's all the talk a little bit about the, the latest that basically going to be making any decisions going forward. here. you've got person binding to potentially trump later this year. isn't yahoo? she kim jones on all taking, you know,

from the throw 6 and controlling what is going to happen next, chris, i know you've been scaling about many of, of these leaders of the types of leaders that would be able to de escalate to take the tension out of the room, so to speak, to bring us back from the brink of, of a world war 3, as well as some of them. i mean, nothing, yahoo is long lobby for a war with iran. he that really is real lobby, was a major factor and pushing the united states into a rack, although it had nothing to do with the attacks of 911. i really think the core issue here is the expansion of us militarism. remember, we spend more on our military than what the next 9 or 10 countries combined, including china and russia. i covered eastern and central europe, including the fall of east germany and 1989 as a reporter. and i was there when the promises were made to gorbachev not to extend

nato beyond the borders of the unified germany wiki weeks released a table written by william burns, who was the ambassador of russia. now the head of the c, i a who said ukraine is a red line, essentially incorporating ukraine into nato is a private case. and it doesn't matter what your political perspective is. that is unacceptable to the russian people, i'm paraphrasing, and so that expansion of nato, up to russia's borders of the inability on the united states to intervene. 16 years, 2300000 gallons living in a concentration camp. these are we have to put these things in context, the massive expansion of the us military in the south china sea. these are all provocations and i, i fear that unless this expansionist policy, uh,

that defines us militarism is not put under control. i think that is the engine that is driving so much of. 7 the instability, the global instability, i really think and, and there was no reason for the war and ukraine. i mean in fact, after a couple years of savage blood landing in which you crane hundreds of thousands of ukrainians are killed and wounded and much of the country destroyed. you're going to end up going to negotiation that could have been done before. yeah, it's good. i can see your, you know, shaking your head almost right the way through. uh what chris was saying, we want to go to a couple of minutes left. can you just give your response place the general responses, the, you know, stop using the u. s. as a punching bag or is a diversion? yes, the us and it's military are to blame for a lot of what is going on, such as the 2003 warranty rock. but it wasn't the u. s. military that invaded ukraine and continues to attack ukraine on

a daily basis. that was why don't report to your wasn't the us that attacked israel or that attack garza, that's a mosse and that israel that are involved there. and if you just simply shout shout shout about us militarism, you forget the fact that this is a very complex system, such as the complex system in china. and you rule out the possibility that the us in china can find a way for together. because you're simply shaking your fist and say, well, washington is always going to be the bad guy, is too simplistic, and it doesn't help us as i was. yeah. okay, let me just step scott, i don't, i don't think that washington is always the bad guy. but i spent 20 years on the outer reaches of empire covering us militarism and proxy wars and latin america and everywhere else. and there is no control any more. it's a state within the state. and uh yeah, certainly i saw there. i'm sorry, chris, sorry, chris, if you're a good recorder, but as an analyst in 2023, 24,

you're given up the job. but for porting on a daily basis where this is not just angels versus doubles, they're a good parent into the system. not it's not the angels versus devils and to defend or vladimir put in any sort. what do you committed or is a war crime, but i think not to acknowledge that he was baited and provoked. it doesn't defend what he does. he was not saying that he was not dated. he was not faded and provoked, and you just defended blood repeatedly by using that inaccurate assessment. that's what i mean about not. well we got i, i called her, i was there in eastern. no, i covered it. i covered, i was, there was a reporter, i watched the whole process. so you were not i, i strongly disagree. no, i you, you were going to have something with the we really do appreciate your time. a gentleman at christmas, scott and henry, thank you very much for your time and your insights here on inside story. thank you . well, thank you. also for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our

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