suspends is finally is close to his family. tony chang, l to 0. i protest upon felicia on tuesday and senegal has been cancelled by the organizes office was out to would by the government for about internet has also been suspended now across the country. there been demonstrations edison's present or not, he's held postponed to the election that was supposed to take place this month. and some of those protests tend to finance. at least 3 people have died. how corresponding, because hack is in the senegalese capital dot com with alexis tore, one of these actions that was fun is going ahead, which is the star or the strike, sorry, by the student union, and the faculty unions of universities across the country. and they've been very angry at the way that the security forces went inside the campuses killing to students in the protests that took place on friday. so they're continuing their movements. and so there was also a march, a silent,

peaceful march plan this afternoon at 3 o'clock that was banned by the authorities . now, on the grounds that this demonstration would prevent the, the transport of goods and people. now the, the organizers of this demonstration are members of civil society. they want to stay in the legality. they want to ensure that it doesn't turn violent like previous protest. and so they're talking with the security forces to try to go ahead with some form of demonstration or silent march peaceful marching. by friday, there is still pressure towards president mikey south to try to not delay those election. the concerns are growing for the safety of the venezuelan human rights. soya brought your son me out and have family were detained, waiting for flight today, and i said states so long ago i had thoughts on ex husband havent been seeing now since friday. the countries,

the attorney general confirms that they had been detained and said that she was linked to a prompt to kill president nicholas madura. hundreds of families of being forced to free their homes amid morgan finance and haiti. there sheltering near a police station as rival guns fights for territory in the capital of port or prince. but once they was heavy gunfire, so we decided not to stay. they burnt the houses. we don't know if our house was burnt. we've been in the streets since the morning. we don't know where we are going. well, that's it for me. and as soon as you take, the bottom line is next. stay with us. the . the latest news as it breaks the see where they come from. winning with detailed coverage. ok, now he's a real thing again,

you can see the stick gray smoke and we can also hear this rumbling from around the world. calming wasn't even on the summit to send up these fall mistakes or bringing that tract is brussel is the only way to be her hire. i'm steve clements and i have a question. what are the chances for a real c spire to end israel's war and siege against guys that let's get to the bottom line. the both sides from us in israel have made their offers to end one of the most bleeding wars of modern times from us once a permanent ceasefire. and israel once more temporary truce now is the hard part negotiations through mediators to find a compromise, as the war bleeds into its 5th month with every day that passes conditions worse than for the 2300000 palestinians were surrounded, isolated and desperate in gaza. zoom out and things don't look all that stable from the us. manage point across the region are in groups are hitting american targets

in iraq, in syria, in jordan. and the us just now hitting back 11 on an israel have daily cross border attacks. and the us as bomb targets in yemen to stop answer all off from trying to impose enabled walk aid on trade with israel. so we witnessing the beginning of a new chapter in the middle east, one where the united states has much less control and less ability to pursue it's interest. today we're talking with political science, a steven wall, professor of international relations at harvard university and author of the hell of good intentions, america's foreign policy elite, and the decline of us primacy. steven, it's great to have you on look. i mean, 4 months ago, at the beginning of this conflict when i spoke and you were very pressure about what you would saw, saw, would evolve of and come in. i guess my big question today is, does the israel gas a conflict which grinds on matter in any substantial waited united states? what are the impacts of this conflict on president biden,

on the perception of american power in the world? or is it trivial? oh, it's certainly not trivial in this is i think, expose the double standards in american foreign policy in ways that are damaging to the united states. certainly damaging to the positive administration. i don't know how many i've lost count of how many times the secretary state blinking has been to the region to try and make some progress thus far. i use failed across the board. and this is, i think, made the united states look more hypocritical, im claiming to expand for rules based order to be a defender of human rights. and, and, you know, when you think about it hits america's adversaries who benefit most greatly from events like this. because not only does the united states look somewhat into factual, but it makes us look inconsistent in the eyes of many. and yet when it comes to try to influence is rarely prime minister netanyahu to not kill innocent people at

a country that is large, be dependent on usa didn't support america, looks pretty darn impotent in my view. what do you think? no, there's 2 problems here. one problem about which i've written extensively in the past, of course, is american domestic politics in the united states has lots of potential leverage over israel, which it doesn't use because that would generate a backlash from the israel lobby. and that's a domestic political problem for biden or any other american president. the other difficulty here and it doesn't just apply to israel, is that in conflicts like this? others usually have more stake in the game then we do precisely because we're so secure already. so all of the various actors in the middle east, whom we're trying to influence are hard to push around because ultimately they've got more skin in the game. they're willing to bear greater costs and they're going to pursue their own objectives independent of what the united states does. especially if the united states is not using all the leverage at his disposal. but

sometimes even if it tries, others are willing to resist. you just look at that, who sees in yemen right now, who are not very powerful, but they care more about what's going on in their neighborhood. then we do. so one of the things that i know you've been waiting in on are the various chess pieces and moves of the players and how mosse has come out and issued its terms on what it would accept as part of a ceasefire. very large, a release of put prisoners in israel and exchange for all of the hostages and, and ending all conflict. can you for 45 days? israel is rejecting out at the moment and it has its terms for cease fire. on top of this, you have sex, race data, anthony blinking, continuing to talk to the saudis. and somehow in that picture, are rumors of a palestinian state of some sort being in there. what are the real elements that you see at play? and is there any chance that you see of this crisis leading to some constructive

creation of you know, some assembly a palestinian justice and autonomy? well, i don't think it's going to happen quickly. i mean, the, the most immediate effect that this whole conflict has had, is it is put the palest, any issue back on the agenda. this had been put to one side by several administration, certainly by the trump administration, but also by the, by an administration of the as early as of course, we're attempting to keep the palestinian issue off. the agenda on one could even argue that some error countries were not paying very close attention to it any more either. and of course, what, how much did, unfortunately, through a very brutal attack was to remind everyone that the fate of 7 and a half 1000000 palestinians could not be ignored forever. so it's back on the agenda. the question is whether or not you're actually going to see something tangible the saudis issue to stay for the last week, suggesting that they are not gonna play unless there's something really concrete that finally come through. they're not going to normalize relations with israel

until you actually see a genuine, a viable palestinian state. we'll see if they stick to that. the biggest problem we face is, you know, we've tried to get it to dates solutions in the past. american presidents have occasionally worked pretty hard, they added, although again, they rarely used all the leverage at their disposal. but the conditions for and if anything are less for patients now less appealing. now a person of all it in the wake of a riff at conflict where 1200 just or at least died and now 27000 gallons have died . you've had the steady, right? we're drift of the is really a body politic over the last 10 or 20 years, which means it's much harder to sell any kind of 2 state solution to israel. now you have a government that's committed to a greater is real. so the issue is on the agenda, i think more and more people realize this problem will never be solved if you don't

get a political solution. but getting to that political solution, it's just as difficult as it ever was. and probably more. so i want to play a tape for you of pentagon spokesman, major general pat, right, are commenting on some of the hot action that's just occurred in iraq and with yemen. it should be very clear that our goal here in both situations is to ensure security and stability in those regions. we're not seeking to escalate. but if our forces are threatened, as i've highlighted, we will respond appropriately on my question to you is, are we being told? no, we're not asking, but in fact we are escalating. yeah, there's several things going. yes, we're escalating as are others. it's and it's not. i wouldn't want to say that the united states actually started this process. and what's interesting about this is that at the very beginning of the war and gaza, there was a think, a pretty conscious effort by many of the interested parties to try and keep the lid on the signal like in various ways that they didn't want to see it expanded,

ron made this clear, has of all that made this clear to some degree of use really did not want to expand it beyond garza as well. so and the united states certainly was hoping to confine the problem to gaza. but the longer a conflict like this goes on and the more is suffering is witnessed every day, the harder it is to keep the lid on the corner, it is for outside or is to remain involved without appearing to be, you know, complicit either tacitly or, or actively, and that has gradually, with other actors to start doing more. the most obvious case was of course, but who is he's beginning to attack shipping in the gulf of us who as, as, and read c. but now you've also seen this. how be getting to happen with malicious in iraq and syria, the attack on an american, a base in jordan as well. so you're seeing the effort to keep the lid on a big,

into a road. the irony and all of this, of course, is the american statement. along with some others that our goal is always to restore deterrence, that you know, we have to retaliate duties a tax in order to re establish a situation of stability. and that's a perfectly acceptable goal. but if you're restoring deterrence for the 10th or 15th, or 50th, or a 100 time, maybe you should ask yourself whether or not the action for taking to restore it, it turns or actually making the problem worse. so i think that maybe the dynamic we're, we're now finding ourselves in i think one of the fascinating things is happening in the world. i often try to sort of put myself in the, in the shoes of the, the, who to use or the humanities or the, you know, other players in this and, and, and look at how they're looking at the, at the order. you know, we just called the rule space or to balance coffee, anarchic order and, and to look at that situation and say, why does the united states get to make rules about shipping lanes? why are we able to take actions on behalf of people we think are under siege?

do you think america is place in the world as being shot back by some of the small players? um, i think to some degree, yes. as i said at the outset, you know, the part of it is the exposing ellen in some photography. and we all know that countries are sometimes hypocritical. but this has been unexpectedly vivid case as well. with respect to the who is the scene of what they're doing, actually, to me highlights the importance of getting a cease fire as rapidly as possible. they have repeatedly said that their attacks will cease once the war stops. now that may be a bluff, that may be why they may be lying, but in, but let's test them on that. if you are upset about the attacks that are undertaking and we should be, and you don't want to have to get into a situation where you're constantly bombing, even in an attempt to stop them. then maybe the thing to do is get a cease fire and see if they cease their attacks. if so, that would be a successful diplomacy. we would also be good for all of the other parties involved

with the possible exception of prime minister netanyahu himself. what if you put yourself in the shoes of israeli prime minister netanyahu and look at his terrain? okay, so i also try and do is overwhelmingly in support of the conflict continuing. and, and i guess that to me it looks pretty dire for those that want to look at. it looks dire from a position on, on red sea shipping. it looks dire when it comes to the state of palestinians in gaza. mean, do you see any way in which the alignment that prime minister netanyahu has right now would be shifted by 4 by circumstances? i want to unpack that particular question and separate out the issue of a ceasefire, or to end the conflict in gaza from the question of establishing a palestinian state. those are 2 separate things and the establishing a palestinian state is the long term or medium term goal. the short term goal that i think is in most of the parties interest is the actually in the finding itself.

in part because there isn't a military solution here, it's increasingly clear and the is rarely defense forces are not going to destroy a moss, which is the stated war came up there. so a ceasefire would 1st of all be very much in the interest of the palestinian civilians who are suffering in time. it would very much be in the american entrance, but we would be seen as a peace maker rather than encouraging a conflict on the war itself. is costly for israel because they have to keep mobilized in troops. people are displaced as well. they are losing soldiers to i think it would be in the interest of the rest of the region and certainly in because it would remove the gasoline that is fueling the, the expansion, the escalation that we talked about before. the one person who many israelis recognized does not have much of an interest in ending the work quickly is prime minister netanyahu. because as soon as you get to cease fire,

there's going to be accountability for how he miss handled things that lead to the original october 7th attacks. but many people believe that the end of the war will also be the end of his political career. so in the sense he has an incentive to try and keep it going. it keeps the unity cabinet intact and it avoids the day of reckoning. he is likely to face within his rarely domestic politics there. steve, i see you as an altar realist, so this next question may be unfair, but it has to do with another live that may be coming off for his real. and that's what brewing in the international court of justice. and the requirement is real, respond to the international court of justice findings that there may be plausible genocide underway is real, is required to respond to that finding. and i'm just interested both. what do you think is real go with that. but also again in the court of global opinion in this about the finding possibly of genocide. do you think that has any force in chasing

the direction of israel? yeah, i think this is a really great question. and even as a realist, i think words and labels do matter. it's important to note the international court of justice didn't i find that israel had been committing genocide? it found that there was a plausible grounds for concern issued orders that it should take that israel should take steps to avoid this and authorized length of your investigation as to what has happened, which was probably going to take months if, if not years. this is already had some immediate effects and you know, a japanese trading firm announced a couple of days ago that was severing ties with and is really arms company over this issue in light of the i c j a ruling. so it's already having some short term consequences, but over the longer term it's, it's affecting israel's image in a fund a minimal way that word now gets associated with israel in ways that all you know are obviously deeply troubling for,

for everyone on it's the same reason that israel was very concerned when people started describing the situation on the west bank is one of apartheid. by the way, that's not just groups like amnesty international. that's also is rarely human rights groups as well because that's a label that carries with it a whole series of images of not surprisingly, israel has bought the use of the term a part time. they are now actively contesting the use of the term genocide because they understand that words do matter here and are going to shape opinions. it to the extent that that label gets assigned on it does make it harder for other countries to cooperate. it creates problems for politicians who want to work with israel for one reason or another. it certainly makes it more difficult for error of countries to move closer to israel despite some common interest as well. and i think, you know, it's not surprising therefore that this has become such a hot and contested political issue. even if that label doesn't ultimately get

applied. i think it's abundantly clear that what israel has done is been conduct a sort of massive war crimes in gaza. just as some of us also conducted work crimes, and the attacking is early civilians on october 7th. and that's going to be a permanent state on israel's national image to let me ask you something about the us dynamic and israel right now. we've seen in the west bank many policy and the palestinians have been killed and harassed by settlers. president biden is actually begun to actively proactively sanction is really settlers 1st time that is happened . so the dynamics in the west bank don't get a lot of air time, but it, but it raises the broad question of what israel's ultimate objective is. but how do you figure in westbank dynamics into this into this problem? yeah, well that's been, you know, an underlying issue for, for a long time. that's one of the reasons why people kept pointing out that the

agreements like the abraham records that were negotiated under the trump administration, were ultimately not a peace plan because they didn't solve the most fundamental part of the conflict, which is again the long conflict between israelis and palestinians, and that as israel's government, you know, moved rightward and eventually began to include as ministers, settlers and advocates of a greater israel. i. this problem was just going to get worse. and unfortunately, both the trump administration and also the vitamin ministration paid almost no attention to this problem until you know, the last several months or so. i think what it highlights though is the israel does not have a political strategy here. and when i say that is if you're committed to great or israel, and if you're committed as prime minister, netanyahu has been throughout his political career to opposing any form of palestinian and state. then what are your options?

your only options are permanent into par side. you have to deny political rights to 7 and a half 1000000 palestinians or, and by the way, that's roughly the same number of a is rarely use or you have to get rid of them in some fashion. you have to do ethnic cleansing after expelled them from the territories or, or worse. those are your only 2 options. if you're committed to a greater israel. and of course, you're not willing to have a multi ethnic democracy where everybody as political rights. and this is why the united states and most of the rest of the world have have said that a 2 state solution is the answer here. it has to be 2 viable states. it has to be 2 states that can thrive next door to one another. but unfortunately, we're not able to bring that about. and as i said earlier, unfortunately, the obstacles to getting there now seemed bigger than they ever have been before. let me ask you a big question about your book is real lobby and it's,

i'm just wondering, is really lobby stumbling. and i think it's facing obstacles. it hasn't face before . you know, if you go back 4050 years, i would support for his or was bi partisan. israel had a very positive image in american politics on a lucky, under dogs, surrounded by hostile errands. it was seen as something of a strategic partner in the cold war as well. so i as many people, including some officials in groups like a pack used to say, you know, we had a pretty easy product to sell on. that's i think, a fundamentally different today, and the reason is the long occupation, the sense that israel was never going to give back the territories it had conquered during the 6 day war. it was actually trying to essentially colonize them, filled them with, with settlers. it's treatment of the palestinians was increasingly harsh, repeated bombing campaigns in gaza, et cetera. suddenly you don't have a lucky under dog. you have a powerful, wealthy nuclear armed israel,

treating the subject population in terrific ways. and you see this most evident in a generational change that people under 40, including i should add a number of younger american jews, which just a very different attitude towards israel that has not played itself out in the political system as yet. because again, a pack and others are quite effective. well organized, well established have access to lots of, you know, packs and other sources of money and money drives, american politics and all sorts of ways and on many, many issues. so it's not gonna be a see change overnight in american politics. bilingual, we are seeing is essentially a lobbying group that can't win the arguments now on the basis of facts, logic and morality. and therefore has to use sort of ra, political, power,

intimidation, trying to control the disc force, trying to prevent people from speaking out on these issues. because it can't when the fight, if it's just an open discourse, i think that the, i think you're starting to see some cracks in the edifice. all right, let me just ask you finally about about president biden. we are in the 2024 race, but think about the equation in his mind. he has spoken frequently about the trauma of october 7th and the is really public. and i understand that. but he is not talked about or very infrequently about the enormous suffering and situation of palestinians right now. and i'm just wondering whether or not that equation which might have worked in 1974 really works in 2024. and whether or not we may be looking for one of the 1st times i can remember of foreign policy, actually undermining a presidential election and mattering in a significant way. what are your thoughts? you know, that's a great, it's a great question. i and nobody quite knows the answer here. mean in some respects by them is damned if he doesn't damp if he doesn't, right?

if you, if he comes down hard on israel, you know, stem threatens to withhold aid really pushes for as he's fire, et cetera. he will alienate, is rarely supporters. they'll be lots of op eds written against him. they'll be people denouncing him on congress, some members of the democratic party. we'll protest on this. there might be some effect on campaign contributions, etc. so he knows that there is a cost to be paid if he does that. but of course, if he doesn't do data besides with israel, as he has, he's alienating young progressives who are very energetic and supporting him in 2020. he's certainly alienating air of american populations and they are critical in a couple of battle ground states. i think the other thing that's going on here is that bite and has a very traditional view. this is really relationship. i don't think he has fully taken a board how much that relationship has changed and how much israel has changed since say the years that he was in the senate,

and he may not understand as well as i wish he did. is that a more independent stance would actually be better for the united states, better for his campaign, but in the long run, probably better for israel as well. well, we will leave it there. i very much appreciate that conversation. steven wall, one of america's leading political sciences. thanks so much for joining us today. nice talking with you as always, dave. so what's the bottom line? my guess steven will make some important points that don't often get enough attention. first, america is strategically distracted. so it's actions are often inconsistent and contradictory. second, even if america, one of the things that go a certain way, other smaller powers can still get their way. global military power used to work during the cold war. because the competition with the soviet union was everywhere. but today when it comes to the great and powerful united states, just trying to get israel to stop killing innocent civilians, the united states looks impotent. that's because israel is focused on what it wants . and the us has other priorities. and the palestinian issue is still very low when

americans totem pole the story of guys that the real hor is not just israel's unwillingness to change the temperature and find the last thing and fair arrangement with the palestinians for its own sake. but it also is the story of america's weakness around the world. and that's the bottom line. the this is the 1st one they saw that we see the real time is the victims themselves long before. there's a disconnect between what we are witnessing on social media versus what we're seeing on mainstream. it is always an attempt to frame at the 2 sides of them, but there is no 2 sides to this. the western media does have a western bias who understand what they are looking to get out and raise. the listening post covers how the news is covered in on the federal tax upfront takes

on the big issue. that is a context to what is happening now. it has a question about 5 unflinching questions. rigorous the bank that he added to 2 days the another. i couldn't think is taking place. augusta. nothing goes into garza without his real permission. nothing leads garza without result. permission allow me to push back for a moment, demanding of ceasefire, demanding an end to the root causes of all of this violence upfront without 0. in the history of refugee camp south of bethlehem walls carry the images of palestinian detainees as my hon. mishaps husband set previously spent a year in administrative detention. she tells us he was arrested again several days ago to katy. katy did we not. we suffered loss because of administrative detention, which would have been easier if she was sentence. then we'd know he'd be released after finishing his sentence, walk down any valley here, turn any corner. and this is what you will likely find. one household after another

full of families waiting on word about their loved ones being held without charge. according to the palestinian prisoner society around 3300 promised indians are in this really jails sentence to administrative detention, the highest number in more than 30 years, surrounded by walls full of photos to showcase happier times. these women tried to lighten the mood, but with the uncertainty only deepening, there's little comfort to be found. what out of their existence, it slowly, shit as a principle present as a correspondence with any breaking the story we want to hear from those people who with normally not get that voices heard on the international news channels. one moment i'll be very proud. all was when we covered the fullness quake of 2015, at the terrible match, all the facts and a story that needed to be told from the hall of the affected area to be then to tell the people story. it was very important at the time of

the . ready the color that i'm associated and this isn't use our life from the home, coming up in the next 60 minutes to john left, including an alger 0 correspondent. i'm seriously injured. is there any strike in front of people and rough associate in your well, is there any attacks about 1400000, how that stands off sheltering the largest hospital in gauze. those con, unice has all sorts.