to this checkpoint and columbia refugee camp is the only access to those palestinians to an ox bosque. on the final friday, the holy month of ramadan. this area would normally be bustling with tens of thousands of people this year. only does this da here, and somebody being turned back to savannah suddenly, i'll also show you, i knew the one to put them in front of me. i'm 72 years old. what do i need to pay that much for? we are coming to overhaul the site to worship, but they don't respect the religion. so sweet listens, believe layla's arcada or the 9th decree is the highest night of ramadan. it's an important time to visit. alexa was an 8 me to hi will stands in the way promising and our routinely thoughts from traveling from here in the head, west side to ok. the most can occupied is to reason. but this here is ready. authorities were posing much tied to restrictions. the only posting and fill out in a men over the age of $55.00 women over the age of 50. the type pot hiding that the

check point here in columbia, on the overlooked by its way, the soldiers. and you can see many of them standing up on the hills above us. on top of the age restrictions, policies must apply for permits and electronic tags via phone up. but many of the strongly before we schedule different, i'll try to come here and apply for the permit with my mobile from the application . but it seems faulty. so i've come to us people to help you. since the war and golf, as starsky, did not tell you, but as being an increase in check points at the tax for these ready minute treat. and settlers making travel more difficult and dangerous. one legal adviser tells us of israel consider results. why these truths love. it's suffering territory that is recognized by the united nations. since 1967 is right is violating international humanitarian law, but antics in jerusalem and preventing philistines from reaching it, especially during the holy month of ramadan and especially young people. so the,

it's ready to check for you to say, hey, but the high need, there are many women who are above the age of 50 who haven't been able to enter through that to reach out to them off. so i'm going to speak to one of them out of how the aisles could, why she wasn't able to attend to equity night. they told me i don't have a permit and i told them i applied but was refused. they changed the game and i asked for one on the spot. they told me to go home. palestinians here say the atmosphere as the most subdued betsy in 20 years. they blame, increasingly aggressive is ready policies the retention, your patients of separating them from the sacred sites marathon out to 0, colombia in the hope supplied westbank. okay, that's it for me, find those points. the nation on website and use continues up to up front. rama time is a time of mercy transformation. worship reward for every good deed is multiplied

by 70. it's also brings nicely to the millions of people around the world to us suffering, trumpets, injury to conflict, devastating disasters, and abject poverty. donate use a cat to human appeal. now to help save lives on transform communities. it is their own little world guys that continues. and israel is facing a case of genocide at the international court of justice. but all we had a turning point for western support of israel and what future is there for guys it and for palestine more broad? earlier i went to new york to speak to one of the formal scholars in israel, palestine in sequencing the progress of norman singles thing, thanks so much for joining me on a bright. thank you for having me. you've been an advocate for palestinian freedom for decades. you devoted much of your life, certainly your scholarship to this. you've been called quote,

the foremost jewish anti semite one planet or something, we will call you a holocaust denial. why does your work generate these types of responses? i think it's a kind of power the ox tell you the truth because you will know my actual political opinions are very conventional and well within the main stream. for example, long after the whole of the left went over to this notion of one state. i was still advocating to states. whereas the whole left was trying to anchor their thinking and things like settler colonialism and this and that i was very firm and just repeating what international law said. i thought that was the best vocabulary to try to reach a broad audience. so the controversial part comes, i think from there's

a certain element of i was great. so now the system to me which is i read everything and i'm ready to cite chapter and verse and everything. so i don't give my as so to speak, adversaries, any wiggle room is not a kind of debate. no, i go in for the kill. yes, you're lying. that's not true. that's false. us. and i am really luckless. i know that i'm relentless because i spend, i think it's a kind of ideological war. i'm and i'm, i'm relentless. i know that, but that's because i do the work can be lost faith in those rep and those reference points in those frameworks. i mean, i know she's passed in swings in i held onto the, the due date idea. i believed in international law now no longer have faith and those are effective frameworks for getting a practical outcome. okay. those are 2 separate question. yeah. i'm on the question

of international law. obviously it moves very slowly, you know, paying painfully slow the, when people are being killed and the genocide and so there's a certain degree of more than and patients those have degree of indignation. so for example, on the car, right. over here, i was reading the new international court of justice or response to south africa. and it goes on for about 12 pages. and they say we have to 1st consider this way. we have the 1st concert at that point. then we have the 1st service about another. all right, come on guys. let's just cut to the chase. people are getting killed. people are dying of starvation. but on the other hand, i have to say there's a kind of i don't know, i was kind of hutch by the fact that at the end of the day, the lot a huge price for the people garza, with

a lot seems to be kicking into place and for example, right now, as we speak, 31 percent of children under the age of 2 are facing acute mountain nutrition in the north and part of guy. so it went to the evidence and they concluded, no, it still has got to give, let the food in, you know, it took 12 pages, it took 6 months, but the lawyers and kicking in so, but what was going to be late? and i mean, we saw after the january. yeah. so i know not much changed. i know. and then what do you do? you know, on the one hand, it's a very slow, tedious process. a while the numbers are just a since the january 26 decision of the court of 5000 where people have been killed. so yeah, it's. so that's why the why,

why do you have any optimism that any of this matters are particularly because i think about in 2020 when you actually stopped writing on guys. and you said you felt like the work you were doing was sort of of things that point, listen, purposeless, and why is it less pointless? and purpose was now when we see legal decisions coming out, international rage. and it is real still remaining fairly often. and i guess the simple answer is to phone number one. if you do nothing, you can be certain, nothing will happen. so that's not an option. and the 2nd thing is that you don't see changes. i mean, it's not what you would want, obviously, but you to see change for the ice age. first of all, the fact that south africa went to bat for palestine. extraordinary, you know, not one arab state. not one arab state. it took south africa. you know,

the fact that the vote was 14 to 2. i said this is impossible. before the vote there are kept counting. i could only come up with 6 countries that was out for wow, if you i would have bad every single dollar, i own it. it was impossible that the u. s. and germany would vote yes. there are grounds to be optimistic, not the least for me, the most optimistic thing is the young people. if you have told me that people are with a king coming out to demonstrations week after week after week after week, i for 6 months, i would never have believed it. the tenacity, the conviction, you know it's,

it's really an extraordinary sight to behold. now somebody said i was a demonstration 3 weeks ago it was a washington square park. and then happen was pouring rain and it was a saturday. and there were about 50000 people there. and they were all around $25.00. i was an age cohort of one, and then there was a gap memory that was a gap before the years ago. and then after was over, a lot of people went down to the subject to go home. and so in the subway platform on this side of the, of the train tracks and then the other side of the change of everyone still chatting. everyone still charged me. if you know the scene from the civil rights movement, united states, how, when they were in jail, they kept singing, and they kept shutting and they kept sinking and they kept chanting. i don't know,

it's like these young people except as one difference, the people in the civil rights movement were fighting for their own rights. these were young people fighting for god's ser, you know, to 1000000 people know some go where you are from the middle of least it's a deeply inspiring. so there's every reason on those grounds, both to be proud of you know, the capacity of human sympathy and solidarity, but also on the grounds of being helpful. one of the things you talked about was how arguments that were on the margins have shifted at least to the mainstream, to be debated them to be, to correct their engage a bowl and then no longer can be shot down with your encounters. somebody right, those days are over. you made an argument recently that turn some heads to be sure you said that how mazda is october 7th, a tag was comparable in some ways to nat turner slave revolt,

a rebellion of his way. black americans in virginia that took place in 1831. we've also refer to guys a frequently as a concentration camp. mm. of those types of historical comparisons probably aren't in the mainstream meet yet. in fact, they offend some people, they outrage some people. why do you make them? well, the primary reason i like them is because i think they're true. know the, uh, the, not the rebellion was replete with the most horrifying atrocities in the order in that turn there, for those of you who don't know, cuz i don't know where your audiences of the united states had not a lot, but it had slave rebellions before the civil war and the best known one and the most famous one was not turn to rebellion. they killed about 60 people, and then i turned the rebellion the order given by now turner, according to the historians, the order was very straightforward. kill or whites,

that was the order kill or whites, and they proceed to do just that. so when i read the, when i read that a light went on on my head and i said, okay, now i have something roughly and i'll analogous to october 7th. so now my next challenge is, okay, so how do you render a judgment on the now turn the rebellion? so i figured i would go to the people who were so the speak closest to me in my political trajectory, which would be the abolitionists. those who were fighting for the end of slavery, however, they were very strictly against the use of violence. and so i was chris. okay, how do they judge assess and turn a rebellion?

and so i turned to william lloyd garrison, who was one of the most famous of the abolitionists. he edited the newspaper called the liberator, and it's very worth reading it. what he said, it began by saying we told you so because he was speaking to white people. we told you so we told you, if you keep treating people this way, you treat them this way. is going to be a reaction. and he went on to say that, of course atrocities, or i think he quoted hers occurred during that during the rebellion. well, have you read the statement from start to finish? he never condemned, not turner. he does not know. it was for me

a personal moment because i spent the last 15 or more years of my life chronicle in the hot showers in ga. so the fact that those folks who burst the gates of garza on october 7th had been born into a concentration camp. not only were they born into it, but they were living in it and they were destined to die. and that was not turner. but is this, is this an explanation from a dispassionate scholar who was simply saying, look how inevitable this violence on october 7th was? or is it an endorsement of the action by saying, look, they had no choice. this is literally only legitimate and morally so to actually look when you make, when you pass more with judgments, in my opinion,

you have to offer options. what else could they have done? so how most was the locked in 2006, we just started with international courts, right. so you have a growing optimism. yeah. does. that's the only haven't because of the arm resistance. in other words, when we have the world's attention with our williams, i would, i'm going to say what the facts tell me now, i'm not saying i'm the only person that possession of the facts. yeah. but the pac faxes, they tell me in 2006 when how mazda is elected was elected on the reform platform. because the palestinian authority, so corrupt people wanted to change you so immediately as they were elected. the international community 1st is real than the us than the you impose this rule economic bar k. don't guys know if you study the record how mazda is attempting a diplomatic solution to the conflict?

it talked about recognizing israel to states having a long term ceasefire. it made many options, all of it was rebuffed, all of it was rejected. then, in march 2018, they attempted the great march of return, a non violent civil resistance. what happened? well, we know exactly what happened. you an investigative body produced the report was $250.00 single space pages. according to the report is we are targeted deliberately targeted children is real deliberately targeted, medics, israel the turn deliberately targeted on journalists. here's the best one. the vote is real deliberately targeted, disabled people. okay. and they have the descriptions in the report. a person in

the distance on crutches, 300 meters from the perimeter fence shot the head. a person in the wheel chair, 300 meters shot down. so of course the non violence is going to fail. if people are just being shot down like, you know, swipe down like flies and there's no international reaction to can't work. a whole premise of non violence, of a resistance is that if you're willing to incur the suffering, then the international community, or in the case of our own country during the civil rights movement, the north and the federal government will be moved by the violence move and sympathy to act when you show the violence number, the whole point of non violence is martin luther king understood it. if you read, for example, the letter from the birmingham jail, he says that violence is in bedded in the system. and all we're doing is we're

bringing it to the says, the surface and dramatizing and spectacle on it. exactly. in order to leave bulk sympathy. what does it work is everyone's, what is the reason why that's why i'm going to show you. i'm sure that's the point . it didn't work in guys. it didn't work. so now you were at the, the heart of the dilemma. if diplomacy didn't work, they try. i'm not saying what they were saying was perfect. i'm not saying it wouldn't have required no intense negotiations to make it work, but there were steps taken by homeless that didn't work non violent, silver resistance didn't work. and by the time you got to october 6, it was clear that a deal was going to be made with sap, the saudis. and then the whole conflict between israel and the arab world would

have been resolved above the heads of the people of god. so, and the only thing those 2000000 people would have to look forward to is to languish and die in the concentration camp. what do you think, given all the destruction, all the them of people and the physical environment? what do you think videos ultimate in game is here? the goal is uh, at one end of the spectrum and the spectrum bleeds into each hope point, leads into each other. at one end is the ethnic cleansing, the just get rid of them do what they did, 1948 and put an end to this guy. so problem is that a realistic vision? i understand the idea of saying we're going to have civil and governmental control over guys that we're going to maybe reinstall settlements as the pre night 2006 time delta. right. but it seems equally doubtful that they could populate, well i okay. let's remember

a time move quickly. the 1st 2 weeks it looked like where they believed that they were going to be able to expel the population to the sinai. that point egypt made a firm decision and not coming in. so long ago was the ethnic cleansing, but i agree with you after 2 weeks it seemed best possible. no one still might happen. we don't know, you know, the pressures that will be exerted on cc. and the number to the sort of middle position was the one that was advocated by you or island, the former head of the notion, security council. he said we'll give them 2 choices, stay in star, or leave. in other words, make us uninhabitable. and then the other, the extreme position was to just carry out, you know, destruction of am aleck, to just wipe out the population and the kind of our new ones to genocide. yeah. so

i think those are the 3 positions and what, what will come to that? we think most likely to come um, what's most like, i think i because president bards and that's having trouble with the demons, a large part of the democratic base. i think the gala pro show that only 19 percent of democrats supported israel is doing. yeah, i think the pressures exerted by, by then will be come on variable for israel and then united states, what does it, what doesn't barely able to be another profile encouraged like we saw the security council where they just sustain know, the united states wanted to stop it from day one that could have stopped. you just pick up the phone and say, no more fee though. no more weapons. it's over and it's over. there is no question about is that possible? and as a practical matter, given this special relationship right?

business has and since it's more it's, it's, it's possible the question is, the political will and right now pros and biting is balancing the what they consider to be their security interest. because, you know, what happened october. somebody was a blow for the united states. security also because the united states has invested a lot in israel as a regional power, unable to the original arbiter. let me push on that for a 2nd cuz i spoke the other day to a professor mission, i'm or me, who said that it's a myth that there's still a strategic and tactical interest with united states in support as well. that that may have once been the case, but it's not anymore. like john mearsheimer is a good friend of mine. i like him. but we don't agree. i mean people are a little bit more and agree to disagree. i don't agree on the point. i think important thing to understand about israel is israel is very much like

a western society. it has the same kind of a bureaucracy russian, our, the modern out look, uh that makes it very easy for the us to communicate with israel in communication. it's not a trivial part, the secure the people, the intelligence people, they all have the same mental outlook. and so that's an irreplaceable factor for the us to have a what sometimes called a stationary aircraft carrier in the middle east where the whole mental outlook is held in common all. so it's still by far the most militarily confident. i,

i'm not saying it's great. it's a good reputation, we got a very big reputation way and i don't think that was an accident re the right has set in and it's really, society is become less the nice. that means there's an element of slovenliness. so the way they carry, they conduct themselves. you said you watch on, in the debate i had, yes, you were epic, almost 5 hour debate with uh were you able to buy any and many morris and something else? yeah. yeah, yeah. i know it's striking at the very end of the debate. i said that is real now, faces are strategic dilemma serious strategic the dilemma is a large number of people in the arab world. after october 7,

suddenly came to the realization or the tiffany. israel's not as strong as we thought it was, or israel's not as invincible as we thought it was. yeah. and then the maurice at that point professor maurice very smart guy. he kind of had a nervous laugh. he said, oh, that's ridiculous. we have a thomas bond, we have nuclear weapons. what was striking to me about that? and so was he didn't say we have the id if we have the army, he had lost faith and it was so now he had to talk about the parents of their nuclear weapons. so i don't believe that october 7th was passing an error mistake, a moment of incompetence. it was a reflection of the fact that is real no longer is

what it once was. now of course they're gonna fix their muscles though they prove that they actually do have comparable. that's what they're doing. now going perhaps has beloved. obviously we also had the who these in, in, in the red sea with their, i see blockade. and we also have a mass issue, and there's, there's a, there's a thought here that to show that there really are, i think that's a very big problem there. i think the problem is that israel has one of its central military concepts is why, because it's the turns capability. and the turns capabilities just the fancy term for the arab world, fear of us. and they are very worried now that the arab world because of what happened october 7th, no longer fears in. and so one of the reasons for what's been happening is in their language to restore their the turns capacity. and that does seem

to include against as well. so i think we're very far, very far from the end of what began october 7th. and it could take forms which will be a regional and may be a global catastrophe if it's a free listing. thanks so much for joining me on upfront. you're welcome talk to the coveted beyond well taken without hesitation, fulton died for power that finds out while we live here. we make the rule, not them. they find an enemy and then they try and scare the people with that. and

the people in power investigate, explodes this and questions they use them to be of our around because on out does their business like this, this world to you believe, i guess is a life fly on one of your lives makes modern plates. the

business like just is free to you believe i guess is like my on one of your just makes model inflates the of the hello why? my name's site. this is the news life from the coming up in the next 60 minutes. israel zone me admits the killing of a work is in an astro. i can bells a was a grave mistake and could have been avoided as well. promises to open a temporary, a brute into an open gauze that off to a warning from us president joe biden. to you and human rights council of.