the on the go and meet tonight out is there is only move i left, is that the, this is where we, the sex allies from out is there is a mobile app available in your favorites apps to just set for it and typed on a new app from alta 0 new at using is it the germany is complicit in israel's genocide in garza and that must and that's in the correct goes argument before the u. n's talk court. germany says nicaragua is a one sided deal with the war in casa. what does this case mean for country supplying is row with western use? this is inside the store, the hello there on james bay's nicaragua,

who's on the international court of justice to order germany to stop supplying is row with weapons immediately. it argues, bullying is complicit in genocide taking place and also the case joins to others involving israel already before the i c, j. nicaragua. his case is more broad drawing on both the genocide and geneva conventions. and his notable for being the 1st to involve 2 countries, not directly involved in the alleged atrocities governments around the world. well, inductively take, notice this germany is the 2nd largest weapon supplied to israel off to the united states. so what does this case mean for other countries the contribute to israel's extensive military network could 3rd policies be held accountable for enabling a genocide? we'll discuss all of this without panel of guess and just a moment. but 1st this report, alexandra bias. 80 years after the holocaust, germany is being accused of facilitating genocide. snicker rog law is calling on

the international court of justice to stop all german arms. exports is real. it argues the really army is using those weapons and ammunition against palestinians in gaza. and by extension, berlin is enabling acts of genocide. the north of the genocide convention, which are part of customary international law imposed the obligation interest case to undertake to prevent genocide. this obligation arises from the moment that that state becomes aware that genocide might be committed. and they can be no question that germany is evident from the preceding comments was well aware is well aware of at least the seriously risk of genocide being committed. germany is the 2nd largest arm supplier to israel after the us and its exports include torpedoes, submarine, parts at the tank, weapons and military protective gear. berlin recognizes the i,

c j's jurisdiction. the us does not. lawyers for germany have dismissed nicaragua as accusations as biased and say berlin is doing all it can to fulfill its obligations to both palestinians and israelis. germany only supplies on the basis of detail scrutiny scrutiny. the only respect but far exceeds the requirements of international law. on exports that take into account the security threats. israel is facing in particular, immediately after 7 october. at the same time, germany supplies arms and other military equipment to israel is subject to a continuous devaluation of the situation on the ground of the landmark case joins 2 others currently before the u. n's top court, south africa accused israel of committing genocide in gaza, which the court found was plausible. and the i, c. j has accepted

a motion by the un general assembly on the legality of israel's occupation of the palestinian territories. now nicaraguans case could have consequences for governments around the world. can countries that are not committing atrocities directly still be held responsible for them? alexandra buyers out a 0 for inside story. the. let's dig deeper into the significance of this case and was it any difference? it'll make with all guests today from wiesbaden and germany, were joined by mateus goldman senior research fellow of the max planck institute for comparative public law, an international law in haifa, deanna bhutto published and you know, and advocates of the palestinian cause and in new york. kenneth ross is a visiting professor at the princeton school of public and international affairs. he was the executive director of human rights watch. thank you for joining a me overview. we have an amazon panel of lawyers today. i'm not

a lawyer can vote so let's stop in layman's language and your view, how strongly is this case? well, it's based on a very simple premise, which is that you should not be arguing. a government that is community war crimes, let alone plausible genocide as the international court of justice has called it. now there's actually a precedent for that. she may remember back to the family library and president charles taylor. she was convicted of aiding and abetting war crimes. the atrocities and neighbors 0 young, because you aren't an abusive reveled there, and he's currently serving a 15 year present term in a brother's printer. so there is precedent for now. the internet for court of justice is a civil court of the criminal court. but is this premise that you shouldn't be harming a country and military, but it's committing atrocities? is you don't really simple and legally straightforward but task. let me ask you

about the comments from the nicaraguan and bassett. a who opened the case for them to correct, right. now to be clear, you don't represent the german government here, you all german in the german lawyer. he said there's no question the germany was well aware and is well aware of at least the serious risk of genocide being committed. what do you make of that basic case with james? i think it's a very good proposition to stop the case. and i think that the co rockwell has a made a very strong presentation in the sense that they gave us as they displayed. the problem is that many people around the world have with the weapons deliveries and, and it is rather in, in the current conflict. and so i would say that in some, to some extent, the readings post the top and standards off of the western world. and that is from a moral point of view, a very strong case,

which they made. whether that is going to be a successful case before the international court of justice is a little bit different because the international court of justice is bound to by rules of procedure. and you know that the substances international legal provisions applicable in the case. and in that regard, the qualification is that it's quite an indirect way in which nicaragua is challenging germany's acts. so it's actually criticizing, or it's suing germany for acts to which germany contributes, which however have been committed by is right. and this indirect way off, texting the conflict of bringing the conflict to the court may ultimately have an impact on the success. often to correct was case, even though many people would agree that there has been violations of international

humanitarian law. and even though the question whether a dental site is on folding, is a, is still a pending in a different case before the court to deanna you are a lawyer to inform a legal advisor to the palestinian liberation organization, the p l. o. but actually i'd like to start with you taking off your legal hat and tell me what the palestinians make of this case all day following it. what do they make of it? they're not following it as closely as they were following. obviously the south african case, but they are indeed following it. and there's a reason for that. it's because of how students have tried everything. we've tried to put matic means we've tried to push for statehood. we've tried practically everything and the world time and again has fail pulse students. and so now palestinians are looking and saying, is it time that the systems that particularly the europeans have been wagging their fingers out us for, for decades,

saying that we should be using legal systems. it's time to test those legal systems and see whether the law actually does apply to israel or whether israel is above the law. so people are indeed following it, and this really is a test of this, along with the other cases, of course is a test of the legal system and the robustness of the legal system. is it a system in which it applies to some countries, or is it a system and which it applies to all? and if it applies to all the we must start seeing that israel's held accountable through sanctions through arms and barcode and through other mechanisms as well. can let me ask you a question that when i was doing the research for this program puzzled me a bit, which is why is nicaragua not suing the united states? and i did a lot of reading about this. it seems to go back to the reagan administration, and the case i can involving make a right to a versus the us, an officer that the us decided not to recognize some of the i c j's jurisdiction. can you explain that a bit more bit back to that to me, it for me,

please. james. except it's a bit that it's a bit the way that the united states ratified the genocide convention, but to put it there is simply the u. s. has not submitted to the jurisdiction and the internet part of the justice of a blanket basis, but only chase by case meaning without the consent to be sued by knickerbocker, where it's germany has consented in a blanket based nicaragua, consuming this case in germany was stopped. so that's why germany, the 2nd largest terms for maya was sued rather than yet the united states. now give it to me at some point in just a short mentioning that, you know, nickel walkway is a core plaintiff here. you know, it's a lead dictatorship is one of the most repressive countries in latin america. um that you relevant to the merits of the case. but it's unfortunate that nigrama, what's the plaintive, you know, what's the word of a truck about the german defense you? because the german word was kind of put forth 3 arguments not very good. um one of them was like whole support probably. and last but yeah. who cares if you're also

army israel as in bonds and star scoutreach don'ts. um, you know, 2nd it said israel's not committing more products, you know, what just just lot of, i mean, anybody can see that it is on the 3rd that really goes to the heart of the german state today. it's a, it's a stop resolved. so the reason for the state as a result of the, not the responsibilities of all cost to support israel. and bear in mind people is the wrong last in a box. but less than a call call should be that you oppose atrocities you impose were primes, whoever commits an, even after by these rather government. rather than that, you support the israeli government, even if it's committed war crimes and possible just it's the wrong to ask your take on that. you're the gentleman on the panel, give us your view of the historical context. and it's ken site says that he believes that germany is in the long, the wrong lesson, a deputy, this is

a valid argument to be made. so there's uh, quite a bit of debate i would say at the moment whether at this position because policy possession of the drum of government, that the security of israel is a part of germany's reason off state is the that an interest in should still be maintained in particular, if it is understood as a kind of blanket support for whatever it is read us. i think you could see over in the last couple of weeks that the germans government has tried to at least publicly articulate. it's concerned for the military and suppression. they've gone to that several times. and of course, ultimately that will and will oppose the question to what extent germany will on condition that lead support is read. and at some point, that will also raise the question to what extent one can co op trade with israel in

a military respect deanna this like the south africa case is like these go on for a very long time. but i think nicaragua, probably like sites africa, kaz about the immediate measures the cold puts in place with a cold, the provisional meshes. now that calling for germany to immediately suspend it's a to is rel, particularly the military, the military, almost shipments, but also important. it says it must resume its support in financing of unreal, unreal being the un agency that is a main humanitarian agency operating cause or how important is that the only way that aide at this point in time can be effectively delivered in the gaza strip is through those bodies that have had a history of delivering that aid and that is underway. and the fact that we saw that immediately the day after the, the order for provisional measures came out. that israel made these false allegations against underwater allegations that have not been proven. and for which

there's been no investigation and immediately be saw that countries cut off aid. it was a means by which israel was able to overshadow the provisional measures decision and turn, turn people's attention to a different issue. now i think it's important to bear in mind is one has not complied with the provisional measures order that came out in january. and it continues to be in violation of not only that, but of the other demands as well for a cease fire. and you name it, so this request that israel, that to the germany, not only stop giving weapons to israel, but also resume aid as a means through a backhanded way of actually giving support to palestinians at a time when israel has made it clear that they intend to carry out genocide and they are in fact carrying out genocide as well as stating that germany and it's a submission in the court said it was the biggest supply to canada to renee to the

o. p t. that's the technical to him occupied palestinian territory. and is germany's been continuing to supply at 8, even now, including ad drops. and on that point, perhaps, as well as listening to what one of the nicaraguan law is, daniel below said. it is indeed a pathetic excuse to the best fit palestinian children and women and men and goss onto provides for many tabby and 8. including 2 ad drops on the one hand us and to furnish the weapons and committee to every equipment that are used to kill and then the 8th them and to kill also for many to be an age. because as most recently evidenced by the missile, i tech against vehicles and vehicles built central kitchen. on the other hand, what do you think of that can? a while he's completely right, and i would add to that, which is that the air drugs are really a drop in the bucket. everybody recognizes that the only way to mediate the large

scale starvation in casa is super rivers, by truck. but the same is really already that germany is, army is obstructing that age. it's reading interesting, drastic. but it's imposing these inspection machines which force trucks to wait, you know, after 3 weeks, many of them don't get true at all. it is been make it a stream we difficult to distribute a within the ana. right. and he says that all is with its $30000.00 employees is the only agency capable of really doing mass distribution then gossip is where it was. try to shut that down because you know, a near 12 people imagine, but i approve participated in the october 7th attack. they all have or dismissed, or 2 of them had died. so henri did everything included with those people, but usually on a particular day here it is. had it been data against on row for decades, because it sees on right as the way the palestinian refugees continue to hold true

return to israel. so that's not congress doing no cost, any reputation though, that their balance being recognized whether i'm resent or not, they want to return to the ancestral. so whether or not there's, i'm wrong, but history of despite knowing that it's aggravating starvation has been on this then data against tom wrong. and while germany resumed funding upon ro, elsewhere in the region, it continues not the fund and in gaza. we're henri is the g, g, a lead meeting potentials to or deanna? i know you like all of our panel. i've been watching the developments in the hage, on monday. nicaragua is case on choose date. germany is response. tell me in terms of the whole case, how much is this new legal ground? and could that be legal precedent to it's hard for me to say because i have a fear, i fear that what the court is going to do instead is wait for the larger case in

relation to south that south africa about forward to wait to deal with that 1st that's, that's my fear. and so it's hard to say it is important to bear in mind though, and both of my co panelists have said this very eloquently, there is a responsibility, not just on israel to not carry out genocide, but there's also responsibility on 3rd states as well to prevent genocide from happening as well. and this case speaks about the idea of prevention of genocide. we already know what israel's doing. it's made its intentions very clear. we see the actions on the ground. we see the forest starvation. we see everything that it's doing. and now it's really imperative for the world to act, whether the court takes the that same route and says, yes indeed, we're going to be issuing some measures. it is entirely different matter, but it is important for the world to understand that it, that it, this isn't just upon israel to stop genocide. it also requires that other countries

around the world, every country around the world act and make sure that how citizens are not on are not subjected to this genocide. the problem with that much i asked is, is we've already seen the cool act with this provisional meshes twice with regard to the south africa case they, they react to it, and then they came back again and said, you're still not doing it. but the court's rulings are legally binding all they not . but the problem is it doesn't have any sort of enforcement mechanism. what you know to and send it to be legally binding doesn't mean necessarily that you have to be able to send the troops or a police force to enforce them. otherwise, it would be for not and to be legally binding kind of consequences at all countries . for example, they might have to pay references if they violate internationally the rules at some point. and that could be enforced by governments that order by, you know,

ultimately by the palestine, which in this case is the party to, to these obligations like the obligation for respect committee. terry, in law, the obligation not to commit jump, dental side are old. and there are ways of enforcing these uh reparations, even though that can be a lengthy process. but that doesn't mean at all is that it's a, it's taught to be relevant. moreover, i would say that in the case in which germany is being sold and as one of the, you know, the one of the largest economic powers, but also a political power at least to in europe. if germany gets a um, in order to respect certain conditions, and if it does seem to be in violation of that order, it's the reputation of damage of sorts. so should not happen. germany would have to reasons to respect it because otherwise you'd kind of go around and base your foreign policy on the premise that you're respecting international law,

which is one of the, you know, the basic tensions that germany is having here on the one have its historical responsibility, on the other hand, it's on it's meant to international and to build a credit. but for policy, which might be important for many different things. it needs to respect international i or at least needs to be able to make a possible case for respect international and you can't do that any longer. is the international court of justice is telling you that you're by election. okay, let's have a quick look at where israel is guessing is weapons from germany is the 2nd largest dog, just provider of arms, the israel accounting for 30 percent of a with its weapons in pools. the us is by far, its largest supply. it gives a 0 annual military aid with 3800000000 dollars last year, germany increase the risk, nearly 10 fold to $354000000.00 most were approved approved and they meet at optim off of how much is october the 7th attack on southern israel since 2015,

the u. k is contributions amount to more than half a $1000000000.00 and include components for f. so he 5 fight to jets. also since 2015 canada hasn't moved to equipment with $84000000.00 to israel before it suspended exports. in february, 10, canada, yes, belgium, it's really the netherlands and spain. they're all countries that have suspended or restricted themselves to israel. all we slo, leasing is rails the pipeline to weapons drawing up. i mean, james, yes. and no. um, other governments are slowly ending the supply of arms. but by far the way the most important supplier is, you know, that is the united states. and joe volume has been reluctant to take that stuff. this also comes back to your piracy, you know, an international court of justice ruling is buying. israel is, you know, legally required to confide with the precautionary measures. truth wide possible

genocide. it hasn't done that. one way to force compliance would be through the un security council that requires continuing with the when the rest of each of the other would be simply for powerful governments like the united states. to say, we're going to stop the military, we're going to stop the arms sales on to okay. okay. well let me also bother you. let me ask you specifically about the us ken right now because we had at the end of last week, 37 members of congress including the full mouth speaker, nancy pelosi writes a letter saying that if the that in light of the reason to strike against aid was because we believe it's on justifiable to prove to approve weapons transpose. there is something called the lea, he lows the former senator patrick leahy. you put those laws in place for the name to of to says the us is now breaking the law is all things and you will view changing now in the us or not? yes, james, in the sense that there is mounting pressure and bind,

do the right thing to condition sort of the military need on sales and, and to israel's bombing, and starving and pals to needs to go to using casa. so there's tons of pressure there. she certainly, you know, would be within the law to do that. she's just resisting. and it's a bit of a puzzle why that is part of it is he seems to start thinking israel back in 1967 when it was david surrounded by the why and that the combined europe armies, you know, certainly it's just that, you know, he's thinking about this coming election in november and it's focused, you know, on the move middle, the handful of independence and the 6 wing states. and it's basically taken for granted the progressive side of the democratic party that's beginning to change with the michigan primary. what are a large number of uncommitted motors suggested that you know, some democrats might just stay home and not vote at all, you know, buying something off of the truck. if they don't go for anybody that's effectively and also trump. so he's taking that for brands and that said, because of these mounting american fashion to stop eating and bedding won't primes

this possible genocide in java abide is under pressure to the right thing. and we know that in this conversation, just last week you mentioned yahoo, she sort of begin understand that maybe it's a white in the future. us relations will be affected by give you that have not to do can change, but it's still very bushy. there still was not an explicit conditionality impose, i mean military aid in the onsite because let me ask you how all things changing in terms of the public discourse. in germany, i saw there was a group of 600 gym and civil 7. so again, wrote a petition saying that is where i was committing crimes in gauze, in contradiction of international law. and therefore in contradiction to the constitution, do you notice a change in germany? now? i did notice a change of gemini, you know, i think that immediately after october 7 and there was a lot of solidarity. and what is rare,

i think there's still certainly derek in particular for, you know, the victims of these attacks for the hostages. but criticism is very surprising i, i noticed at least in parts of the german public, that we increasingly have a more. yeah. and understanding us is rabbits at which means that's and we don't take more time. yeah. it was partition that is governments processing in which and you know, quite problematic ministers are assembled at least to some extent, and we don't take that's to be and the be all at the end, all of is that we have a nice that there's a plurality of us and it's right there. so there has been lots of demonstrations in the teletubbies and all around. is that actually and much of that is also perceived in germany. and so people are increasing be it seeing that, you know, there's, there's not one clear, it's very difficult to put yourself on one side of this conflict given how it is

unfolding. and that, of course, has also an impact on how jeremy to should act in particular, in respect of the weapons it at the courts today, jeremy was trying to make the argument that it is not delivering weapons that could be lee. so in a sense, you know, not a board weapons in the very narrow sense with what you can shoot. it was only delivering equipment 2nd that to it's delivery is had to decrease or it's, um, it's, uh, it's runs of permits for weapons exports have it decreased since october, and that's a long valid arguments to make. but what i wonder is, can you really deliver any weapons in the current situation as opposed to october and where many people ask themselves? and if there is any other way of providing human, terry and h to got south either then to a ceasefire. so that is the responsibility that many people now see very clearly, and they also think about germany's long term prospect of maintaining it's and it's

stopped as it's standing as a, you know, a and a lot respecting country is. so okay, i do and see see changes here. okay, thank you very much to all guess today. my task, goldman deanna bhutto. i'm kenneth ross and thanks to you too for watching from all of coverage on the cases before the i c j plus background analysis of the war on gaza, please visit our website out. is there a dot com? if you have comments on the list, you can post them on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story or find this on ex, look for at a inside story for me, james space and the scene here in the hall. please stay safe, bye for now. the now is the time to be directed to the creation of a humanitarian crisis is

a tactic we do not do. it was the policy that we have the was from us, particularly that was very upfront on out of there, seeing how believes that you shouldn't underestimate the consequences of snatching animals from their natural habitat. family groups are separated, and infants and juveniles are separated from their mothers. and it causes a tremendous amount of social disturbance in these populations, which we just don't think about. i mean, know how come here to be and behaviorally sophisticated. they are how complex they are. and you have to put them into a gauge doctor, we should like to and keep them all their life. he also believes that science isn't the only factor to consider ricky thinking that if i have a degree, if i look into a research institution or a university and best place to understand the macbooks. and so if we do continue

with animal experimentation, let's be aware of the impacts of 5 actions. and that does not mean that we don't harm we don't tucked we do. we exploit the, [000:00:00;00] the color there in the stalls the attain. this is in use our line from the home coming up in the next 60 minutes, praying for peace muslims and gaza offer impressed in the middle of destroyed homes and lost their will st. wanting. the loss of family members killed and is really strikes on our refuge account on central golf and well water levels keep rising in