they had their bios, they had some slides, but then police was called in by the university board quite quickly. and he was inquiring pretty much immediately and that was something that has really gone down the wrong way. and we say now is that haven, the thing we are to the people are not showing in last week. joining us today and there's nothing really escape if you could, if you could say word for us because we've seen protests and seen events kind of similar to this in the us and other places in europe. but in the middle is a country that's known for, you know, a great amount of freedom in what you can say publicly and the kind of opinions that you can voice publicly. how does this sit, what we're seeing now? how does this sits with the culture? well, that's exactly what the students are also asking themselves, because just then that is,

has this history of openness and freedom of speech. but we're also right, you send more involved. so that's the most kind of time, certainly much en route from the government from mainstream media, but also from the one of the steps to be said. so to say, one of the readings that has to be mailed all the time is that these are defined as it's wireless. using framing has had a fairly large impact on the move in the roof. we have seen reports of jewish students, right? but this morning, a choice uh lecture. uh. so what are you thinking say this framing is and it gives people the very straight and start really wrong now. all right, the man is actually in

a few days determining to move into that right now. let me see. it's okay, step, look, we're gonna, we're gonna stay on this life short of amsterdam just a little while longer. we're going to have to break the show in about 30 seconds. they will be back at the top of the hour with more. but i do want to recap whats going on for people who just joined us. what you're looking at is police at the moment, containing an earlier disrupting a student protest at the amsterdam university. this all started about a week ago when there was a student protests and saw directly with palestinians that was broken up by police . will tell you a lot more about this story in our next show and somebody else. the

colleges with the, what is happening today is happening on our watch. the news from now, they will be people asking, how did you let it happen? yeah. when way you, the tragedy from me, of a democratic south africa is not that were worse than anywhere else. it's how quickly we sort of adopted the very told re global norms of the into twining of money and politics. ready i got into photography because i wanted social change. ready to me politics as i've sent a question that's gonna get sent to the and it's a question, a social movements and the lives of everyday people. you're looking perfect and

they said, my name is shane to, well, i'm not, i'm a southern journalist from by monday the we have to ensure that as much unvarnished truth gets out into the world as possible. if that makes people resent us, so be it. when i try to investigations, i was threatened with removal from problem. my name is andrew find steve, and i'm a south african right to campaign a politician. the 2100 resigned over the amc government's failure to investigate the career of tom state event on to rights about will say on straight is really about change

profits rather than uh, security. since discovering the power of news show, he knows been relentlessly documenting human rights abuses for working conditions and class differences, all of which also got him into trouble with his own government. so it's not a photographer. what was the rest of the sunday after appearing on? how does it right in criticizing the government for both of us, we want to hold the powerful accountable. so what is the role of the story? how do we reclaim our own narrative, most to each of us do now to bring about social and political change. join us on studio be, i'm the, the

if so 1st of all, just to say, it's a wonderful to be in conversation with you. i'd like us to start with where everything began for you. obviously the bangladesh liberation, struggle in the variation of all central to the creation of the country. tell us a little about where you were doing this to multi as time and how you came to realize the power of the media during the liberation will well, my niece this summer in the audience, the she was born on the 24th of march, 1951, the for the genocide and my 1st reaction on the night of the 25th was to get them out. and then that night i remember watching. now the skies were

red and they'd surround it. one of the newspapers that is most critical of the regime at that time to focus on a routine on a plane throws in and we could hear the screens of the people as they came out who are being gummed. yeah. so that was how it began. and from that period and on woods of the fact that we became independent, so special tool the for us, we was so hungry for news if a news week had been smuggled in from somewhere, there was a picture somewhere. but then much later, while i was doing my ph. d in london, i got involved with the socialist work as fuzzy began to see how they used images send their activism. and it's no, i'm for middle class. so mean you go into these sort of respectable professions, the lawyer, the doctor, the engineer, whatever i thought does bundle,

they should really need to get to the research chemist. i thought i'd found the tool and if i was good to fight imperialism if i was going to challenge power, i was going to use the most powerful tools at my disposal. and that's when i decided to become a photographer. but i'm not married to the medium and they for tomorrow photography, caesars to function about have no problems picking up something else. you know, i don't do it very well, but i've seen a dog. yes, i do. what's nice about you, andrew? uh, i mean, obviously you, you advertise yourself as a proud left is true. but what brings you here? what was that social fabric that is shaped to i'm the son of a holocaust survivor. my mom survived the 2nd world war in occupied vienna. and when she came to south africa, my dad, the south african, she felt that black south africans were being treated much like the jews of europe

had been treated. so she got involved in the anti, a potted struggle through the wonderful organization called the black sash. and i grew up in that sort of media. but i think the other thing that is quite important is that my parents moved 29 times in the 32 years. they were together and liked south africans who didn't travel. i could find out about nelson mandela. i could find out about the amc. you know, it was illegal in south africa to have an image of monday left to learn some of his words and when he would be somewhere else and then come back. i would just think to myself, this is insane. this is, you know, why did black people have to disappear us of the areas we live in at sunset? why are elderly black men and women called boy and girl and treated as the best, subservient in some way?

and i suppose that was really the roots of, of my politics and still to this day, i thinking phones. a lot of my politics are sort of a sense of full human beings being equal. and when you think back, you effectively started to document a movement for freedom and liberation in the all the aspects of your work that you think had the most impact. having left an independent bond with dish i came back to find, find the dish under an autocratic general. and i began to take pictures of the move that to try and bring the general down. what all so happened was i began to smell the gas and the street, the rebellion. all of the things that can view the general it of what's happening. but then there was a particular thing that began cold crossfire, extrajudicial colleagues, being done by the rapid action battalion. and i wanted to tell the story. i

know a, i don't think rapid action battalion would've actually said, hey, by the way, be gonna kill someone. can you come and take some pictures? yeah. so that wasn't here to be easy, but also i didn't really think showing bodies was good to add to it. i had to find some other way to tell that story. so when he spoke to the family members, they talked of how the 1st response of the 1st memory they had because of tortures being shown on the face as the rapid action battalion come in. so i decided to leave the torchlight to light my images, right? so it was very conceptually, the sense of very allegorical. i think the government got scared, they decided they would close the show down. so the police came this around that gallery. what happened about time was those images puppy showed had an impact

that no other exhibit of mine before had ever done. oh wow. and the papers, a realization that they was, the vocabulary itself was important in how the story to be told. but, you know, if one were to top shutter will, investigations because i've been working a lot on corruption in the country and i've known to what you did off the policy and then a more recent book in terms of the small on trade. i see the parallels between countries high of 12 q there. so you know, i got involved in the struggle against the potty. my work briefly is a facilitator in the constitutional negotiations that led to the 1st democratic election in 1994. and i was elected that and that was an extraordinary time, you know, when my data was around. and the fact that everything we did was sort of in the

interests of national unity and national reconciliation. but as soon as monday, let's step down his successor. i'm in the tragedy for me, of a democratic south africa is not that were worse than anywhere else. it's how quickly we sort of adopted the very told re global knowns of politics and economics and the intertwining of money and politics. and i was the ranking amc member on the main financial oversight committee when my own policy and government decided to spend 10000000000 dollars on weapons which we had absolutely no need of. so i stood up against that. and, and becky who is in the president basically told me, i had a choice. i could have a great political career for the rest of my life. but i had to end this investigation. oh, i could try and continue the investigation that forced me out of parliament. so i tried to continue the investigation and knew exactly when they were going to kick

me out and i resigned the night before. but i want you to know more about what this global arms trade was, that it's so corrected a young democracy. and that's what led for us to an organization called corruption watch. and then an organization called shadow world investigations which investigates the alms trade corruption and its impact on politics and on the world . but tell us a little bit about your organization that you created. well, 3 quiz setup last week because of my realization of how the narrative is controlled. and what paola, the storyteller, has it started actually with the most observation i was having a show in belfast, and i'm very fond of kids, and i was staying with in new re, uh, been friends, place, and green. uh, the little daughter would jump into my arms retail each other stories

a one day. she uh, she standing at the doorway rather than jumping up to my lap net just every up as of what's the magic, rena? i've had clients in my pocket and i'm putting them on the table and she says, you've got money to this. i've got money, but you from the dish. oh, she kind of work it out to. yeah. and i could see how this image of the bangladesh she was that of an icon of poverty. i sort of okay, you know, like do you have these photographers visiting? i know they fly and they have diarrhea for 2 days. i'm taping the no, but they create that image of what my country is and if we were to change that, we need to to be our own story. tell us a lot because what 3 was a platform for us story. tell us that feels like an appropriate point to ask if there are any questions from the audience. so in light of the very different struggles for liberation in both to your perspective, the country,

south african bangladesh. so what are the impacts of those on struggles on the political landscape, corruption authoritarianism, and what's the impact on the citizens? well i, i mentioned the military general and we were finally able to get the general down and we had an eviction. if you had an elective government, that's when we came to the realization that having an election in itself does not lead to democracy. certainly, the process itself is also be narrowed it. but the fact that the democratic process actually requires far more than that i made requires active engagement. office citizen 3 itself is something we've been now really recognized. and we also realize that while there's oldest rhetoric but democracy and freedom by international community, they would love to try that. have

a plan dictated that. it's a messy democracy. but i would like to come back to you on that because you know, i was the routine about it and power was similar today and see what led to the revolution. i'm liberation. yeah. but once they get the sense of entitlement once via that, now it is time for us to, to consume. this is out of, you know, you know, south africa are under a potty, was brutal. and the, a potted regime spent almost offered 14 percent on the militarization policing, etc, etc. and what happened off the 1994 when we became a democracy, is that the brutality of the townships effectively was now across the country. and, you know, all levels of violent crime are extreme and will remain in some ways quite a militarized society. you know, you did flip the switch on and off the one election, you suddenly have

a peaceful democratic society in which everybody lives happily together. are there any more questions from anyone? so you alluded to a relationship between the media and politics and the economics am i would be interested to on your past and experience these. so we like work with each other, how these tenants of influenza and then i would also be interested from your experiences also and social movements. what would you recommend to a social activists today so that we can wind thank you to want to get from the well, in terms of the media, it is said it's the 4th estate suddenly placed in my country and i suspect elsewhere to main. so media has abdicated, they have long since given up that trouble they,

they money making machines. and in the interest of making money, they will make whatever decisions they need to make. they still keep on the veneer . but i mean, particularly today, i mean, i'm wearing this for a very specific reason. i think what mainstream media particularly invest in countries is doing is shameful. yeah, the fact that they have so blatantly taking partisan positions is usually problematic, but it does talk about this nexus of the possible entities and the fact that media across the globe today is owned by the powerful means it's no longer represents the public as such. and as long since failed to do so, i agree with that entirely. i mean, i think the commercialized media, which is how i refer to the main stream media, you know, awesome the financial institutions that own so much of the world. so

the defense companies that i investigate and work on, they were owned by the same people pretty much when you look at the shared holdings and the inter relations of those. and it sounds a little bit of glib, but there is a sort of an establishment narrative. we can have democracy within this box. so long as we talk about the set of things, if you want to go outside that box and then you and extreme is then we don't want to hear your voice and we just ignore him. and of course we're seeing it primarily around calls today. but we're now seeing a situation where our politicians feel so out of touch with the people they're supposed to represent about. and it's really important issue of hundreds and hundreds of innocent people being slaughtered every day. and i think that this gap

just feel so wide now and it's reflected in the media landscape. and i think what we all seeing now is 2 things that have been happening. one is the sort of the rise of alternative media. and it's the one thing that gives me a lot of hope, the sort of quality of quite a lot of the attendance of media. i mean some of it is a roofing, but a lot of it is really impressive. fact based, verifiable information. and the other side is this real notion of citizen, jen is a you know, the fact that we're seeing a genocide in real time on our screens is because of the coverage of people on the ground. and i honestly think that when we come to our senses, one of the impacts of this horrific tragedy is going to be a significant re alignment of how people get information, the news and who they do and don't trust which was particularly so idle.

if a pig just speaks a 1000 words, what is the impact of this new technology as a on, on photo john as a, as an industry, particularly in terms of conflict such as we every now? well, i'll go back a long way, louise high and i think 19, i'm going to have this great statement saying, while photographs may not lie, lawyers may take photographs. today you have presidents and generals and religious leaders who lives in that position. and i, i recognize what digital technology has done, what a i has done in terms of questing the perceived veracity of the photographic image . i actually think it's very healthy, because what it does is it takes the proof of the voracity and

validity of the image away from the image itself and places it on the old. so if you believed or not, whether you believed or not depends upon, we are track record on what you've done, whether you have the credibility on us because what so the same and i think the same should happen with images. i think the danger is that we implicitly believe in the image. now the fact that it's being pressed you and i think is healthy. and so one of the things i'm particularly worried about is that we seem to repeat history again and again and again. so for example, since world war 2 and holocaust, we're seeing, you know, 8 or so genocides and most trusted ease. and now what's going on in casa and we're also seeing a rise and fall right extremism across the world, amongst the population. what i'm worried about is that we're going through the

cycle where we say, we never forget a never again, but then we end up guessing and committing the same mistakes that we did last time . i want to ask, is it possible that we can have a break out of the cycle? and if so, how society can we do that? firstly, i'd like to say that we do actually learn from history. the history is an official narrative written by the there's a lovely african statement that goes until the lines find the story. tell us story to about hunting below risk glory. 5, you hung up as the basis on which we set up 3. we wanted a platform for different story, tell us, and it's a person who controls the narrative that determines what the story is. and i think we need to take over that narrative because they get away with it because there are officially subscribe histories would be a fed continuously. and i think that the entire process needs to be separated. i

would just add to that that we then use those official histories, the histories of. ready who write it to justify what we do to violate the very notion of never again. and for me, that moment was when these really ambassador to the united nations will a yellow star of david like my mother, and how to wear in occupied vienna when he justified israel slaughter of innocent palestinians. you know, that is not to ignore the fact that many israelis died on the 7th of october. and as human beings, we should always always mourn and a week, but the death of any other human be. that is what to be human is in my opinion,

but to suggest that the flow for of 6000000 people, jewish and 6000000 other people who are not jewish in any way justify what the state of israel is doing to people in gaza showed me how little of the actual lessons of history we learn, because for me, so many descendants of survivors and survivors themselves. the lessons to take from a jewish history of suffering is how to avoid the suffering, not just of jews, but of anybody. and how it is only when we have justice throughout the world, when there is great to re quality throughout the world that we are all going to actually feel safer. so i think shy, do is a 100 percent, right? we have to be very aware of who writes history and how history is used. and

only then might we be able to learn something from it. i mean, i didn't know how you feel, but just from the questions you get a sense that we're all grappling. but what is happening to our will, what is happening that, that these heart is, can take place that we are enabling and facilitating? well, i would like to reflect on the fact that what is happening today is happening on our watch. the news from now they will be people asking, how did you let it happen? yeah, well, you know, i think each one of us needs to reflect upon that and insist that me cannot be complicit in this process. the we sort of seem to be living in a moment, but often i think to myself, hang on the races are actually describing the lifelong anti racist as racist

which is insane photo these countries that talk about democracy have thrown it out of the window. none of you who i'm sure, protested in the streets, have been supported by your own government to call themselves democratic the our oceans are under switch. by a for rushes, fishing industry, government, people are thinking you'll bring deep sea trolling back east eating off. the choices sees that go systems are going to suffer more and more with climate change and we need to adapt. now. marine conservation is, are in a desperate race against time. the ocean provides services for us that we require as humanity. i'll just see you as lucy is dying of the last shock. there

was the time to be direct. the creation of the humanitarian crisis is a tactic. we do not is it was a part of it. we, it was from us, particularly from the city upfront on, out to the or the own kind of foundation is deliberate over $300000000.00 will suffice. emboldened $75.00 countries around the world, 100 percent of suck thoughts and emotions to donation spence on projects. and we ensure beneficiaries come 1st of a 300 on luis, haven't had gone through the rough,

the crossing in recent months. our most of these bless and be blessed and we all turning your donations into direct delivery in the shortest possible time donates with confidence the the, the color they're uninstalled the attain. this isn't use our line from the coming up in the next 60 minute, playing for their lives and fighting intensifies between. tell us been in groups and does really forces in northern garza to body of refuge account fall in southern java is really a types of displaced at least 360000 palestinians from rough. it was absolutely terrifying because we left people behind and we were to.