the the. ringback the angry protests in georgia, the bottom it says approved a circle for an agents film critics. i will stay. busy the country away from democracy by adopting a russian style system. so what's mix for georgia and could this and it's aspirations to join the be here. this is inside story, the hello. welcome to the program until mccrae protest send a wrist and to play c. george's problem, it has signed off on the controversial bill, sparking outrage in the capital. in april the government's announced it was

reviving legislation that would require media and non government organizations to register themselves as borne agents. if they receive more than 20 percent of their funding from abroad. now that leads to weeks of mass demonstrations. the government says the lawyers needed to promote transparency and preserve sovereignty. but is it assign? georgia is moving closer to russia. and how might it affect the countries hopes of joining the european union? and we'll put those and all the questions to our guests. and just a moment that this, this report by image and kinda protest is shop done, pulse of to describe it to lisi, pointing back against a new noticed the for an agent to the open, the called fraud. besides this direction all towards a basically fall feed the same laws at

parting so far for an agent bill. the bill will require organizations receiving moving 20 percent of the funding from approved to register as agents of foreign influence. they would then be monitored by the ministry of justice, can bills to share sensitive information, cool, potentially face hefty fines. critics say this negatively affect media outlets and non governmental organizations could be used to stifle free speech. clump time on the government's political opinions. it seemed to simulate the legislation in russia. it's used to press the position, but the government says the lulu stabilize the country. now he's a come for an influence. sounds good service posts, us visit the adoption of the low on transparency of fund improvements, create strong guarantees of long term peace and tranquility in georgia. and to overcome the so called potent ization, which is a necessary condition for georgia integration into the european union versus the

bill now goes to president's, telling me. so basically it was said she will use of the time to book it. but her decision can be overwritten by another vote in parliament control by the prime minister's ruling party, georgia dream, and it's all always the use says the bill will damage georgia's bid to join the blog. something that is a flash point. so many protest as this law is going to destroy the european future that my country has been fighting for and the value. so there are source has been fighting for for ages. the u. s. is one georgia not destroyed with most goes against the west threatening sanctions saying a planned $390000000.00 and assistance would be reviewed. demonstrations have been held for weeks, crowds number 10, the sizes for just a fleet to be the biggest in georgia. since it regained independence from russia 1991. and despite a heavy handed was things by police and with

a bill looking set to pulse, they don't show any signs of stopping. imaging came out to 0 inside story. the cadets bringing out guess now all of them joining us from to play see holmes. the good for the is a professor of public policy at george's leah state university. he's been working in the corpus region since 1999 and policy research. and with the think tanks can be, yvonne, she is really is a senior research it with transparency international, georgia which is likely to be seriously impacted by the new for an agents law. and does she limit dunphy, who is a campaign strategist with shame of protest movement started up to the protests in georgia in 2019. thank you so much for joining us here on inside story and see if i can begin with you. it really feels like this is one of those moments where everything really is in the balance in georgia. can you just give us an idea of how much is at stake right now?

the best way to describe what's at stake is that this is a kind of crew that is a strong word. that's really what's happened in georgia, is that over the years, the courts, the culture sector, a lot of independent institutions have essentially been captured by the government and uh, the, the sector of society that was left standing with civil society. and this law that looks like it's about transparency actually makes it possible for the government to repress essentially any civil society organization. it was the right way of describing it is it's a refresher anyone you want the law that stigmatized since institutions it opens them up to intrusion, expose them to, to, to, to fines. and all of this can be slapped arbitrarily. model civil society organizations. so when you see lots of people protesting, they're not just protesting about

a single law. they feel that essentially the country is being taken away from them . and this is what drives people's anger and also people's fear. mm. it could have fun. is that how it feels into place in your organization, transparency international? georgia is obviously going to be affected by this. what impact is it going to have for you and your organization? thank you. as you might know this little, there was a doctor yesterday with a sore impulse is not a has nothing to do with the transparency and it's directly targeting 3 sites. orientations and critical media in georgia says, at this point, this low can not be considered as a below against only suicide in georgia, but also the law that is targeting the western western supports to georgia, full transparency internationally swan. is there a reason stations doing the critical or for just them by pressing therefore

yes, will be um, pretty much affected by this, but georgia has a, i'm afraid, 5 friends, large suicide serving jason single girl. a. as you can see, they are out in the streets, protesting this because they see that the core of the slow, it's not only a narrow target of suggest sick society, but also the georgia european future. if you can just specifically explain how you are organization is going to be impacted as well. the so and visions to is specifically target civic sites organizations in critical and media by enclosing a financial functions unless they are reduced during a special database. its agents uh and therefore, organizations like us might be forcefully registered on this day and registered themselves and significant loss of financial functions will be in post on those

service agents which is quite critical. i'm a big and a financial, a trend support organizations like this. yeah, it does is we've seen huge numbers of people out on the streets, protesting in opposition to this, but the government says, and it's supposed to say that this will result about transparency and preventing outside influence on george and politics. that can only be a good thing surely. well, definitely the, the agenda that they haven't closed on their public campaign is about as transparency and, and, and that their motivation as they say, is to ensure that the public knows of how the civil society organizations are. finally, that's aware of the real reason behind the behind toys is of course not to have transparency because the seal of civil society organizations on the in utah sector in georgia is one of the most transparent sectors in the country. we are

required by financial law to provide a final separation period like usually to the ministry of finance, about 3 feet of an operation that the tower organization does and this is present universal. this is not only about us. so basically, what we are seeing now is the russians time of the restaurant tends to clear the field from the critical voices being individuals who can monitor the election. so can investigate the governments corruption who can defend people in our system with legal aid while they are um, you know, punish spybot says yeah, more it's or it's that term. so what they're seeing now is a very, very sparse, very violent attack on george's constitutional aims of trying to be integrated within the u. n. angel. and because the slow at the end is,

this is not only my opinion assessments as the u. nato and every beat of a or magician to talk to him just friends of george's partner saying that all the slow him him during georgia. so you won't be an inspiration san georgia, so you don't get perspective. so what is the situation where that kind of thing? yeah. what we'll get onto the impact that this is going to have on the assess permissions to join the you in just a moment. but holmes, can you just give us a bit of an idea or a bit of context about what the government's problem is with an outside media organize sessions and enjoys because it really feels like it's not just a distrust or dislike anymore from the georgia dream. how do you read that as being described as more resentment, bordering on hatred? why is that? why is the government, i guess, trying to do this? what is it trying to achieve? of what the government's trying to achieve is precisely to suckle organizations like transparency international. that steps k t uh, works with to shut them down. if you go to the website of transparency international, you can actually find out in some like 20 seconds who funds them. what they do with

that funding and how much they receive. but you can also find out rather quickly the um, the 150 cases of high level of corruption or allegations of kind of a corruption to remain on investigated certainty of those concerns. concerning peas . yesterday we have same piece voting in favor and all of this is just what the boss know. and that means almost certainly there is much more 30 or other cases concern cabinet level. senior officials, prime minister ministers, deputy ministers. if you're the government, if you're correct government, you consider it institutions that highlight your, your corruption. of course, you consider them highly politicized. most sensible people would consider that, that, that sensible, kind of unnecessary work in, in a functioning democracy. what's really important for people to understand though it's not a totally just about these organizations. it is also to day organizations that work

on animal rescue. people. let's try and save cash people that were $3.00. they will also be affected and they say they cannot consider continue operating. so this will, that the state has the risk of devastating, essentially anything that is not state control. and that's a, that's a very, very big shift. that's a very threatening burden, ominous development. and it, it could have on, i heard one protest to who was out on the streets, describe this government and the supporters of this lawyers, a slave to russia. does it feel like at this point in time that the country really is moving in that direction or the government is attempting to move the country in that direction? thank you for depression. absolutely. at this point, when the slow government basically declares that their intention with the slowest to go against the west. so right now the situation is not just about government

versus civic site turbans ations, but it's about the government versus the west. is it something that we have witnessed and listened to the speech for the ordinary determined oligarch, felisa ruler of george's government, and who has been capturing the state for over several years that we have researched at the transparency international, georgia. and he specifically, you know, outlined in his speech 2 weeks ago that he sees with the west as a diverse race. there for this law goes beyond very narrow view of being with just attacks on um, pacific site to the organization in georgia. but therefore, it is a very alarming trend of george's place to shift towards russia and is exactly why we see protests being this massive and non stop for a months now. you should just on the, on the purchase, the desk looking watching from the outside. it feels that there's an intensity and

a passion there from the protesters. can you just explain why young people in particular a so in the sense by this low um yes, i would agree to the, to the description that you just said. um i do think that the reason behind the youngsters being so active uh in the process then basically being the car of the old woman these because thats informing me we were more in a free georgia. we were born in an independent country that was uh, 3 out of the soviet regime and the static on the rules and principles of how, how do we wave right and how to do the ration has it has um experience a times when we, as a country of fight rapidly, we had to new opportunities to get education, to get new jobs, to travel, to europe and other countries to basically be part of the global word world, which we couldn't have been years before. so i do think that the young,

younger generation is concerned about losing all of this, about losing the losing, being parts of the civilization, a western civilization as a whole, and somehow be more into the camp of russia. and it's still another one of the recovery and countries like bellows and others. i do think that people perceiving that's based as the people at the moment when george are either a goes towards 0 band and gets on nation or mission accomplished for his fax. so it's passed while being with russia. he's right now and we're at the crossroads. yeah, i'm just on, on that point, you know, a part of the country is still under russian control. does the georgia government have to keep that in mind here as well as i clearly know, part of nice oh the you, you and they don't have the protection that those organizations officer just, georgia, have to be careful here. do you think the traditional name for, for centuries has been at a, at a difficult a child in the challenging spa,

and so to speak, between big powers in the past, in the last 30 years, when georgia faced severe crises what it onto, it was, it was with western friends and partners, and it worked with the people that actually brought if you will, goodwill to through this. and i think it's fair to say that, that maybe that's not always the case around the world that, that people look at the west and western united states and you in the kind of very positive way, but the end the call, cuz i think it's really fair to say it's been overwhelming the a positive influence of experience with the rest of it has been very, very bad. that's maybe and something you don't see from the outside. but you know, towards us have been killed in these occupied territories for recently in recent years with total impunity and therefore for them it's so for many people they want ultimately to work with the west. so you need to is maybe somehow you're in a difficult neighborhood. sure. you need to kind of navigate that. that's something

that lots of countries need to do. but essentially the west in the past and western friends and partners have been there and once worked together with them and so to speak. if you take all of that off the board, then you don't, you're not even doing balancing anymore. you know, you're just, you're just going all the way and one side. and this is, this is again, this bodes very badly for the future. you know, then we, everyone knows that one is critical, knows that western societies are also in need of improvement. but very few people think that russia is the kind of place who really want to live. yeah, and this is what this is about. yeah, i also want to talk about the billionaire that is being called a pop up. most are georgian politics. it could have been very helpful in the georgia dream policy, the gina ivan, this really he accumulated his wealth and rush here. he's got close ties, obviously still then now how lodges has influence within georgia politics from the very beginning. he, he indeed had

a significant influence on george's government. he in fact also had a couple of posts, but he was pregnant to serve georgia. and he has level politics um couple of times and it was the final 3rd uh, come back a piece of uh by the end of january last year, when he declared that he was needed back in politics in georgia in politics about, well, we have been researching and exposing his implant, saying in 2021 we have reached, we have concluded that at this point the implants oh, totally guard is so big that we can ultimately say that the state is captured. and we take a look at the different branches of the government, the cabinet, and the new service that we have in georgia. everyone's who's in the, in the role of government authority is either connected with team and the, from the, with the business interest,

or he or they are coming from key style. correct about that is something really important. i think as in assets, events for assessments in georgia, on the other hand, what we see started government officials from different years in georgia are loyal to the oligarch. and the policies and the states are coming from there are pretty much aligned to what only kirk and who's an interest now do need. yeah, i'm sitting on this for a moment. i think 3 of the last 4 prime ministers of being full of manages of his company. so, do you think that he really is a puppet mazda, pulling the strings behind the scenes here and what is his in goal? i think the best way to describe him at this point is like a the mac best of the conferences. he, he's of exclusive man. he is actually not very active day to day. uh well the pull some strings. he then offers that. so the things kind of fall by the wayside,

so to speak. and i think in the end he's a man who's trapped in a maze of his of his own making, so to speak. and who is, i'm sure about his own future habits, ask well better and resentful and now lashes out. and in many ways that i think is someone who has run out of ideas and has run out of people and now thinks that he needs to go after people that could actually oppose a challenge. which is my macbeth so to speak is the lines to the right comparison here. ok, does she, i want to get on to the you've been to ship. uh, you mentioned this before. obviously, an overwhelming a number of georgians wants to join at the european union. this new law of definitely impacts that was what i mean. it feels like at this point in time, the protest is processing just as much about the possibility that they might not be

able to join the a u. s. a. our about the lower itself. what would that be fair to say? yes, exactly. i want to describe the situation just as you said, people are fairly concerned that this law is a direct friends to georgia. 0 can weigh in all the progress that we have made throughout the years. uh, for uh, 30 years georgia has been so slowly and step by step, trying to get closer to the western institutions like you and nato. and during the past few years, we've made this significant progress. like having an association agreement with the you visa, free regime, and also last year attaining the candidates, the status. so we are the critical stage of uh, getting to the next stage, which is the um, session negotiations set aside and talk to you. and um, as far as i know, we would have that in our hands, sorry about whether we are getting to the next stage or not at the end of the year

. so these come with a temporary, critical junction of, of a time when every step of the government, every, every law and they they make and adopt. we'll send a team for stay, you work in progress and you can wait. and especially with this legislation that is directly attaching the west uh demonizing them and, and trying to register the west as an enemy in public mind and public consciousness . because that's, that's what they do. um, i think a lot of a lot of protest members have, but tribes to that somehow i view with the, with the georgia dream managed partners that at least we should give day, a differentiation between russia and the west. our friends are partners. but the main thing we say that's all know this is all about $40.00 in every point in power, no matter who they are. he's danger to to store the sides of it. yeah, this election is coming up and i think 5 months time and in october,

do you think that this is short? so as a kid have on from the government does, it's just going to push people away from voting for them and, and to well, position policies as well. um with this low um um um in the coming election is uh government is trying to well suppressed a critical voices. this is something that is critical to understand about current developments and events in georgia. therefore uh no, this is prerequisite for something really. um, this is something that requires uh, a lot of attention from the west uh election to go for this election saying this full to be free and for this is going to be really important in this country because again, the european terms of syrup in the future is to stake at this point. this is also appeals by the, by the people on the streets and therefore, uh uh, this elections are core uh to be, uh say anything to be health free and fair

a little bit slow. it's not helping this. people are i switch to try to defend it. yeah. and so i know you've observed every judge in election since 1999. you've been uh, obviously keeping a very close eye on the politics in georgia for the last 25 years. can you give us a sense of what you think is going to happen over the next 5 months and, and through that election period? yeah, so, i mean, i would say typically elections in georgia, there are not a level playing field. they're already kind of a model playing field, and this one, this law will tilted further. it'll get even more difficult for opposition parties for people who have different views to actually have an impact with everything else that goes on is also i think one thing that's really important to mention to people that look at this from the outside, they might think, well if the government selected why, why shouldn't they be kind of legitimate and doing now?

they were elected to pay the rather the one, the last selection of the promise of taking george up towards you. and now they take it exactly in the opposite direction. so that's important. to understand it doesn't worry is that the elections are going to be neither free nor fair. and this is um, this is what also drives if you see very angry scenes from the streets. and i wonder why aren't people just being peaceful? i'm just waiting for october. that's why because they feel that this is taking the long term future, but it's may also take any sensible charts away from them and been here in the near term is dusty just on that point. so as hands was saying that it doesn't feel like these elections could be either free, no fear. so what is going to happen to the hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen out on the street? so they going to continue protesting this? oh, well definitely uh no matter. busy how the game of the law is, they accepted me, were i to be told where they take it back and cancel this doesn't matter anymore as

a i do think that the main eddie to the main perception within the test moment is that this is not at all the law anymore about this, this is about the regime, the russian regime and the correction. i think that is trying to direct towards you a way for me to see what the impact. so i do think that the people that are on this for you today before already months and working tyra's tirelessly to voice their opinion is a little bit of can they're going to go into the elections as well. i do think that so i would agree with the cost that's the selections are not going to be different if they are not going to be free and fair is as nice works with me about i'm sure at the same time that to be a lot of people show up if we have a record to turn out in the history of georgia elections, which is highly of the model because we could do that. the government would have a very hard time to somehow try to influence the election results. and i would say

that we have a pretty good chance, so slow, we didn't get your hands in the direction of the show you've described as low as in the full out from it is a cool you've. you've said that these elections coming off and not going to be a free nor fear. so just how worried you hands for the future of georgia. the future is already here. that's the challenge. and what's really important to understand for people this future may be coming near you if you're in a democracy right now, because this is part of an author retiring way than the kind of walk or caring table that's being rolling out in various places in that it's not just about georgia, this is part of the broader battle, if you can, if you think that society should be broadly open. now this then, then this matters to you. thank you so much for all of that. we really do a pretty set your time in your inside and skid, yvonne and actually thank you so much for joining us here on the inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting

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