form of default, not just towers officers and that's for algebra is different from mayor of the city and now said he was doing away with the curfew. that was supposed to get everybody off. it's international perspective with the human touch zooming way in, and then pulling back out again. the us top core, she is arguments about as well as the military campaigns and dropbox as real estate that has the right to defend itself against him. off south africa says the offensive, it's aimed wiping out palestinians, but could any ordered by the world post office? well, this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm elizabeth put on them. the international court of justice has met full time since as well launched as one,

gaza and up to the 3 at the request of south africa and its latest appealed pretoria has cooled urgent measures to order a hold on the assault on java. since early this month is really forces have been pounding the southern city with more than 1500000 palestinians had taken shelter, also escaping from other parts of gaza. hundreds of thousands of now being forced to flee again to refugee camps in central gaza. as well says it's operation is limited and aimed at targeting the last stronghold of moss and java, south africa, close as a genocidal act. the i. c. j has old of some provisional measures since pretoria 1st fall the case in january. but israel has largely ignored them to so count the cost and souls as old as and one that's decisions make any difference apart from the effect and will depend in. we'll discuss these questions with our panel of experts in a few moments. but 1st, this report fi up to some denford, preparing

a symbol of peace outside the international court of justice. well inside israel, defense is ground operations in the alpha, as well as intensifying a full scale defensive in the southern city. despite opposition for many of its allies in the last 12 days, more than 640000 people have fled to tulsa. and israel's military says it's deploying more ground troops. their lawyer is representing south africa. say that you went, the top court must order extra measures to prevent acts of genocide. it has become increasingly clear, the dis, rails actions in rough uh, pos, at the end game. this is the last step in the destruction of gaza and this palestinian people for whom the introduction this set of hearings is the 4th, the international court of justice or i. c. j has held on as well as treatment of palestinians. since the start of it's one garza in october, the 1st was in january,

also launched by south africa. the court had ordered provisional measures, demanding israel do everything and it's power to prevent genocide, lots. but as well says it's operation in the alpha isn't genocide, and the city is a strong hold. it to the south africa of operating on behalf of the palestinian group. because a clear anterior motive, we need to ask you to order is ready to stay away from your office. it does so in order to obtain military advantage for a spotlight from us, which it does not wish to see the feet that south africa also accuses as well. of blocking aid from entering garza un official say, only a few a trucks have entered through the cut them. i will sell them crossing in several days. and the us has admitted supplies starting to enter through floating peer. it's military, spelt, i'm guys as coast,

can't make up for what could be delivered by land. the basic point is we'll, we'd be able to get enough aid and to keep people alive. we've made it very clear that unless things change dramatically for the better, the answer is no. and people will die. as well as representatives argue it's taking extraordinary measures to protect civilians. the court has given as well until saturday to show how it will ensure the safety of palestinians fleeing to so called safe zones and says it will decide on possible additional measures to stop these rarely assault in the next few weeks. if you send good food, i'll just do the inside story. the spring and i guess joining us by scott from london has international human rights lawyer toby cabman. new road a is a political analyst who joins us by scott funding tamala, and robbie sable is professor of international law at hebrew university and he's

joining us from west, most of them. a very warm welcome to each of you, mr. cabs. and i'll start with you in london. how do you assess the laces here? and so the international court of justice, south africa's presentation, how strong was it, and as well as defense. a thank you. um. so i think it was a very strong response. oh, very strong. uh audience that falls by does that sound good delegation? very much like the 1st one. i would say it was a evidence based um, it was coherent um, so tired the position as many see it and said that the necessity for the further indication of a professional my mission. so i think it was a strong, strong position and there was that was that type the, the is ready delegation. there was, he complains that they had inspection time to, to gather that legal team. and so there was a, a muscle on the delegation of all 3 that had come from the government

won't i think from a disappointing side. uh, i think that was the, the, there's the same kind of denials that we've seen in, in previous all settings. the previous hearings, and i think there was an inappropriate attract on the south african delegation as being the legal arm of a terraced entity which, which is not, not an appropriate argument to the forward before the cold. but i think that the, the case as it was presented by, by both sides will cause to cook some difficulty. um, obviously the, the main cool is full assessed ation of hostilities and withdrawal of the units. i don't think we'll see the cool good about fall, but i think we will see them. you know, lots of that may have been in,

in the previous provision is just the whole situation and wrap up is critical. and so i think they will have to take action absolutely lots to pick up on them as disabled. how did you assess as wells defense that to the operation. and rafa is to defeat him off. and what do you make of what mr. calvin had to say about this way, the defense and you know, the denials, he says and as well as defense and that at times inappropriate. i think there's 2 aspects here, but why else the 1st is that was very little emphasis on how most come us. all thoughts attacked is o killed of, of the liberty of a 1000 civilians and continue to book it's an bookcase which is very civilian towns . it's a toast organization, it's charles calls for the elimination of as well. and it was a little reference to this. it was if you will, fighting the civilian population and goals, which may not be affected in a golf hug. it covers organization. the other element that disturbs us is

cleaning this be no genocide. even the corpus bends of the quote were not willing to say that was genocide for you or the principal. but they did a valid, tenuous claim for jurisdiction, but there was a possible, a possibility of a civilian population having a bite look to have genocide against the why was a must a say. but why would the court ruled that the palestinians and gaza have a right to protection against genocide? unless there was a risk of genocide? i think they wanted to give, have jurisdiction. but clearly there's no genocide and katie, there's going to be no decision with genocide, but the court wanted to intervene. obviously, the civilian population garza has had been very badly affected heavy casualties. but this is because we have practical in a blue top area, the any all me person, most of the fights the book, the kids will tell us organization and both of the area is going to call civilian

casualties. and the quote was justifiably worried about this wants to try product to protect the civilian population, but they did it by trying to to attach to a sticks into a genocide case. and this i don't think they should have done. okay, mr. kevin, i can see that you don't agree with that, but let me bring new order in here on the, again, on the is why the defense that the is really all me is just trying to defeat him off even, you know, questions about whether it's possible to defeat him off militarily aside. does that goal justify the death of already tens of thousands of civilians in gauze or how do you think, you know the cost is looking at this issue? well, elizabeth ab absolutely does not testify. what is happening and that's what the genocide convention says. but what these really at team in the, hey getting and, and what, you know, defenders of this genocide want the world to believe is or what the world to do is

to believe of them. and to not believe their eyes to not believe the reports, to not believe the over whelming outpouring of reports by experts on the subjects leading world experts on the subjects of genocide. to upset that this is a textbook the case of dennis side and have the court not agreed it wouldn't have accepted this case and as well, wouldn't be that or should be at least preparing to stand trial for genocide in the coming months. these hearings, we have to remind the viewers are just on provisional mat message the i, the, the, the subject matter of whether israel will stand trial has already been dealt with. it will stand trial. and so the merits case, as it's referred to by lawyers, will proceed in the months ahead of but the evidence is overwhelming. jobs as these proceedings were taking place. the world food program was saying that palestinians

been gaza. children and adults were reducing to the size of skeletons and dying in agony. the united nations was saying there was no more food to give. the crossings weren't allowing. israel wasn't allowing aid into the crossing. certainly not enough, not from the north, certainly not from the south. even the americans were saying that much more news needs to be done. so it's a bit difficult to sell an argument that wants you to discard all of that evidence . yeah, and just believe the say so all the is really representative at the height and on the issue of evidence, mr. cabin, if i can bring you and you know, i had one international in the way of michael link, who's a former special rep or 2 on the occupied palestinian territory. he was saying that a good way to look at who has a stronger case in the lasers hearings as who presented the more the more credible evidence to support what they're claiming and how the south african team presented

. you know, many reports from the united nations, including about how famine is now taken hold and northern, gaza and how that spreading. and he said that as well, i couldn't do the same mister cabin. what will the judges be looking at in the side and then pulling and the slices hearing it would have 1st of all, just to go back to, to, to get it goes to said, i don't think it's appropriate. but as it goes right to say that the, the international court of justice on her flushed of jurisdiction in order to, to have the case, that's not how it is difficult, just as operate states. they looked at the evidence that was presented and they concluded, as they have stated in a very clear rolling that there is jurisdiction over this. and i'm, and as we, as we've heard from the other guest, that obviously we're not matching at the, the,

the merits, the substance of the options yet. that's going to come up later. but i think that for what has been presented by side south africa is, is a very strong case based on the evidence. i don't think it's, it's a justifiable to say that is around as many targeting how much of cost, but i'll talk to my boss. and of course, we mustn't forget what happened on the 7th of october. but of course the i c. j doesn't have jurisdiction of a hospice house has no states. so the, the south african case was based finally on the evidence of water. it has been unfolding in the us and particularly what was planned for rough uh and the statements that have been issued by leading members of these ready government, which i'll take the disturbing and, and really demonstrative all of walk through intentions clearly are. and as,

as you've said, do you think mr. kevin, when you say that what, what do you think their intentions, claudia? so we, we can point to a number of different statements as to the, the, to the vet, during the raising off of cause that moving policy is out. and, and, and we've had this repeatedly since, since, since middle turnbook or so, i mean, i've stated it before. i think there are sufficient statements that have been made and sufficient conduct to demonstrate the genocide is the crime of what crimes it is. the hardest charge to prove, but there is definitely a case to be argued that this is a genocide and that is the intent. but just turning to the other point that you made it in relation to farm it. i mean, i think that's an important point to, to put, you know, using starvation as a weapon of war is a war crime. we now heard a number of statements and even samantha power of the chief of us age. and as i've

stated this to compress the, this is a from unfolded and so i think, and that's thing pending voice is that's not a voice that has anything to gain any extra growing. that is an independent voice stating what is the current situation on the ground? yeah, given all of that international pressure on this disable, how do you think, as well as going to respond to the international court of justice has given as well until saturday to show how it will ensure the safety of palestinians, you know, fleeing at alpha. how much pressure as a further pressure is as well on the now and how do you expect it to respond? i think what we're doing is what we've done in the past present. the evidence of the hundreds of trucks would be very long in the fact that we don't have it for egypt and allow it to end with now allowing to shipping the fact that we see moving, urging the spelling population to move out of arrows before we have tech. that's

not how you do jennifer. yeah, mr. say don't lose 2 points about that when you're the 100 good to you. misplace for autism for people to be about. but absolutely not lights. well, it's not saving their lives when the united nations, when various to monetary and organizations are saying that they are being killed when they are trying to sleep. they are killed when they get to wherever they're being told to go to and on the hundreds of trucks that you say as well as allowing in, i mean, the united nations have said that doesn't need 500 trucks a day. that's very rarely happens since october 7th. you can probably count on one hand, the number of times that's happened. so again, how is well going to respond to what the united nations to attend to international humanitarian organizations and the united states? it's biggest ally is saying about things like the lack of aid and that as world has no plan for the safe evacuation of hundreds of thousands of people that offer. i

worked hard states instead as we want. they want us to present the plans for that, creating the welfare i've been working on it. what we've done so falls with me, but text and also goals will be move the population out and they was saved by this . and it strange to accuse as well as moving population about it should be about 10 when population does bell and the stick of casualties. i don't know. is that correct or not? but they don't include the her mouse tell is if you look at the fit because it's all the strangers are the only people have been killed have been civilians. and in fact, the realities that over 10000 over 10000 the towers were killed in action. and they continuing to fight, but i wonder what, who gets the head of what? i wonder what you are mark tall? yeah, i mean, i want to say you're basing that 10000. what are you basing that 10000 him off? you know, you say how most terrorists killed because it's not just the us state department, but it's even, you know, publications like one of the world's most reliable medical journals,

the lancet human rights watch. use the figure is by how mazda is health ministry for the civilian for the casualties, including the number of women showed an elderly which make up 60 percent ms. oden, let me bring you in on up on what you're hearing so far about the pressure on israel to respond. i was to be honest, i don't think that israel has really felt enough respond enough pressure to respond in the way most of the world wants it. to which is to stop the mass slaughter of palestinian civilians. the evidence is overwhelming and we just heard in the past 24 hours from the palestinian direct crescent that 40 percent of the people they've treated in the past days have been people who were forced to evacuate to what is real calls safe areas and what are those safe areas, they are either sand dunes, the area that it's called as milwaukee. no infrastructure, no water, no food,

no medical services or time eunice, which has been reduced to rubble and turned into a mass grave. where of children, women, and medical staff were found, bound, tortured and executed. so there isn't the kind of pressure that you would expect is not present. i think the american administration is finding it harder and harder to justify where it stands on this, but it still has its eye on november. and it's trying, i think, in many ways to balance between the holding onto the support of its base. what does that overwhelmingly wants this war to stop? and also trying to not upset the traditional elements of the democratic party who are the donors of the, by an administrative sions. re election campaign in all by these legacy has a being formulated to be one of other political failure and certainly complicity

in the eyes of many in his own party to stop what is happening and goes to apply enough pressure on yeah, on. nothing yahoo to see is beautiful. how sensitive and to allow humanitarian assistance. and the mr cabman, america stands torn towards israel has certainly changed since the war and gaza began, especially, you know, in the last month with bite and even saying that, you know, withholding an um shipment, saying that american weapons that as well as using american weapons to kill civilians, but i want to just how vulnerable as the international court of justice to political sentiment or to political influence on these things that the court will be considering and making its ruling. well, i think the 1st point is that as lawyers we have to place our trust in, in both courts being independent and acting,

possibly in any matter before them. and even the, the internal court of justice, which obviously is the, is the highest corporate for both dr. nations, we have to put our trust in not quotes to deliver a decision. and that is just based on the evidence. i'm sorry, the fall, that is what we've seen. we have not seen of bound to pressure. we have seen that making very measured decisions. of course, those of us to stand on one side want to see it doing much, much more. and we want to see it's actually ordering a ceasefire. and ordering is route to withdrawal o military operations as goals. of course, we want to see that i would like to see it give a very strong rolling generation to this. and then when we looked at the pressure from other states, what are the, one of the concerns that we have is the, is a completely rational, a position that's taken by states as far as the argument that made in respect to

the train and the items are made in respect of israel and that, that is, that is more of course the changing position that we're seeing now. it's starting from united states and other european nations is based on what we all see. the fact that for more than 35000 people have been killed, that let's, let's say that the, the argument of 10000 is correct. and that way that fingers pop from. but let's say that that's correct. let's do 25000 civilians that have been killed. many of the women and children, but take no talk in this. and we're told that israel has the ability to carry or talk to military operations. it is no, it is. it is destroying garza. it is forcing palestinians, right? and when, when we talk about the warning sign, it's elizabeth, the practice is actually monitored or no, no. is it the fact that you give a warning opportunity for people to late does not give you cop launched to then

literally bomb and destroy the error of what we see is, is must have cause i hope this is completely destroyed and helpful. and then we say 6700000 civilians being forced into an area where they are as we, as we see facing assignment. so i think that is what causes the central community to change his position because yeah, it is contributing to the situation on the front or something. let's just say, well how, how is, is real concerned about the international community? you know, as mr. cabman says like changing its position as well is growing more isolated on the will stage. is it concerned the 1st uh, i also hope the quote will be impartial. i hope to present the quote to is 11. will it be in partial? i hope so. secondly,

the united states complete the supports as well to aim to drive destroyed the military bunch of hamas cuz they don't weight, but they're worried about civilian casualties. and as we all have a civilian casualties, only homes as well. we do every day make every effort not to kill civilians because clearly it's a p all treatment for how much when somebody has a killer, they don't, they don't care that bill shelters, but us williams. and i mean with her, her mind i'm from us head as many talked, but that's why i just, but i also have to say, you know, come off has said many times over and over and again, since october 7th, that every civilian casualties is a tragedy for them and i don't actually know how you can say civilian casualties are a tragedy for, as well when it's killing more than 35000 people, at least 60 percent of them women, children, and the elderly of us tell you it's a legitimate question. i'll tell you why. when he killed civilians and civilians are killed and fighting them, come back. it's a p. uh,

a asset for how most homes are squared aware of that. be the humanitarian movies and whatsoever particularly therefore, how much does not move it civilians out. it has not to show where couldn't the where couldn't reason too much to say it's one of them. but you also the just have a question. it built underground comments present on a tow is not for any civilians submitted without having to take any offense to build west. we build shelters, possibility, and therefore we're, we took on presidents efforts to prevent war and sending me dumbs get millions of phone calls to people move out because we're again, the question is, we're about to when the united nations has built many shelters and gaza, most of which have been boned by the single one. right. so the united nations has a city nice of nathan said okay. and israel has bombed most of the we don't have very long left in the program in this order. i'd like to come back to you with

a very important point that you made earlier. i want to go back to that because as well cannot, of course, continue this one garza without the support of america both militarily and diplomatically. we didn't see the bullying. we didn't see the hearing in january, have any impact on america support as well. do you see that changing now or the domestic politics in america? do you see them, stewart from thing, international sentiment? a look, i think 2 things are happening on the one hand, america's policy is being isolated in europe, which is an important ally. and so pressure is coming from there because the in public opinion, in europe and, and many governments in europe are moving towards the point where they are telling the americans this policy is simply untenable. we cannot continue to support it and this will cost us in upcoming elections. we saw that in, in the u. k,

where the position of the government did cost the ruling at tories, a lot of seats and we will see it in other places. most likely we've seen the students in kaufman some so on and so there will be pressure applied on the, by the administration from that direction which is very significant. then there's still the domestic political aspect involved. i think the, you know, washington will be the last one standing, but it will become very difficult for european countries to continue allowing israel to get away with it. and that's why we saw spain not allowing a shipment of arms and munitions to even dock and its board on its way to israel. right. countries understand that they have responsibilities. they understand that this case is that the court because diplomacy has failed because the politicians are playing politics with the palestinian peoples blood and that is simply an untenable policy position. at this point miss or day, we run out of time, but i want to thank all of our guests for today's discussion. that is toby cabinet

in london, not audit in my la and robbie's stables in west jerusalem. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website on to 0 dot com. that's a further discussion to go to a facebook page that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is at a inside story from the elizabeth put on and the whole scene here, fi. so now the the, you will see a duty in a growth using for p use a cost to contribute to improving the lives of thousands of on projects except the cost. and we strive to ensure it reaches it's deserving recipients,

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counting the cost on elders 0, the hello, i'm sorry i'm and was in the quick look at the main stories of the following. now at least 64 people have been killed in his riley attacks across gaza. most of the casualties are reported in the north. why is there any forces attacked a residential block, a shelter for the displaced and women and children had been chewing for some more. so people now have you come all at one hospital in the north for doing what they can digging through the rubble searching for bodies of these ready attack on the residential blog was alcohol due to their incentives. this update.