with political schools in the 1980s was settled by assessing this. there was a big black hole coming, a battle in which south humans president was part of a deadly gay. i refused to give them my head, give up power the killing of south pm and the politicians during a routine cabinet between age 1986, an estimate of an assessment nation on al jazeera, norway, ireland, and spain announced that they will recognize an independent palestinian state we love in europe and nations follow suit. and what does this mean? palestine efforts to become a full member of the united nations. this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm several of any until now most western

countries have maintained that they will formerly recognize palestinian statehood only at the end of a peace process with israel. but after nearly 7 months of israel's devastating war and gaza that has killed more than $35000.00 palestinians, norway, ireland, and spain say they won't wait any longer. the irish prime minister drew parallels with his own country's declaration of independence from british rule. but the european union is divided on the issue and logic powers like france, say, it's not the right time to recognize a palestinian state. and the u. s. veto still holds back palace times bid to gain full membership at the united nations. so what does this increasing recognition of palestinian statehood mean? we'll put that to a guest in a moment 1st. so this report from image and camera policy going to be recognized as an independent state from the 28th of may. but at least 3 more european countries of today, arden's norway and spain are 9 say that we recognize the space of policy.

each of us, when i undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to the decision that the grand israel has stepped up its bombardment across garza, a will that has killed more than $35000.00 palestinians and reduced to much of the strip to rubble on my sensor all publicity, emma, i wish you a condition of palestine is in support of motor forces that are on the retreating front and a protracted southern crew conflict. this is an investment in the only solution that can bring lasting pace in the middle east. a 2 state solution video, adding that the 2 state solution is best for both palestinians and israelis. and this is the only way to ensure peace in the region and the deem location line should be from the almost disagreement of 1949. with your recently as the shed capital, it's the other european countries joined suit including slovenia and molto. israel

has responded with anger, immediately recruited some buses from new way and orland. the israel would not remain silent in the face of those undermining its sovereignty and endangering its security. today's decision sends a message to the palestinians and the world. terrorism pays these countries chose to reward from us any run by recognizing a palestinian state. will palestinian officials have welcome the decision in this one? it is a very important in determining that i understand people in our people to sensitive condition and also it's a, it's a lot most only a most of the, the fact that it has to be down and on saturday, that's fine. it's fine to see it to patient to prosecute to the international

criminal cool is requesting arrest warrants for these ready to administer and defense minister for the war and garza. he's mostly seeking warrants for the rest of the to em, us leaders for the october 7th attack on his ro, our reactions among west. the leaders have been split on this with the us and u. k. speaking, act against me for the union says the icpc must be respected. wednesday's decision for the european nations to recognize palestine could create a split among western allies within major international organizations. bought gifts, paula stowing another victory and its loan journey to achieve full state hood imaging can buy out a 0 the inside story. the so let's bring in our guests in television, you'll see bill in a former is really cabinet minister who initiated the also piece process. in 1992

in barcelona, julian barnes basically directs the middle east in north africa program at the european council on foreign relations and, and began way in the u. k. con ross, a former british diplomat assigned to the united nations who resigned and founded the non profit advisory group independent diplomat. a warm welcome to all of you. you'll see i want to start with u. v is really government sees this as a deeply hostile i'm as a for recognizing palestinian statehood somehow diminished israel. does it? nope, no way. i mean, you asked me, i would have the, this is dated to i believe that there is no other and there is no better solution for both people. then to have to state the solution. in my view, it should be under an umbrella alpha configuration of 2 independent and silver and states a but the trusted solution is the basis for any solution. and between the 2 people

. as long as you want to have the solution, if you don't want to have a solution, then no solution is acceptable value. but to say that it is healthy and use why? i don't see how. why do you mentioned this idea of, if you don't want the solution, do it, are you implying are these really government doesn't want the solution? there is no question. did the show you nothing in this government? not all of them with goals that the reasonable for the 6, which is the holding or the others a by doing x and the they, they close out against any solution with the police, dns. and then they developed a law or any development conroy us. as a former diplomat, you once worked, we set it at the un, what you actually did at the time. and you've explained this on your sub stack was to try and increase palestine status at the united nations. it was part of your, your diplomatic efforts there. so. so based on that experience, you woke up today and saw this news of recognition of palestinian statehood and you

thought what? i thought it was a positive step. i think it diminishes the diplomatic space for israel. it shows very clearly the israel's actions in gaza has reduced its diplomatic credit, but to have made it more isolates. and then in the world, all of that is very positive. and i think it moves as towards the conversation about what kind of solution long term that might be for the israel palestine situation. i don't, i'm the lines in my own mind. but the only thing that will work to move is around the tools that kind of solution is international pressure and serious international pressure, much, much smaller than we have seen up until now. to julian, i want to ask you whether this recognition is going to build momentum for more recognition, but allow me a little bit of a preamble some, some facts for viewers here because it's not the 1st time far from it. but the countries have made this kind of move, in fact, 143 of the 193 member states of the united nations already recognized palestine,

norway, spain, an island added to that group. that will be a $146.00. palestine is a member also of many international organizations, including unesco, the international, criminal court and interpol. and this month, the un general assembly overwhelmingly voted to back alice times bid for a full membership. but the us has consistently blocked it at the security council. so at the moment palestine remains a non member, un observers state. that's it status. so back to that question does, does this recognition of statehood by 3 european countries? but the same time does that bill moment and for more recognition really reflects the direction of travel. as you, you said in the lead on that as being a, a whole series of concepts taken to a different level. the recognition visit is 3, a quite important a european countries coming out now on top of the 90

u member states and did already recognize as a sign. i think it's very important countries like frost and even the u. k. putting this on the table now, i think there are others like belgium and sylvania in the you're also thinking of this, the decisions are clearly, there is a lot of a thinking about the recognition that something needs to change the policies on the ground or stop the situation and kind of blue blue to the interested and call it the need to to try to establish a new equation. i think the real question is, what is, what comes along side that show we have more european states moving this direction . we see a lot stronger the global south last to be pushing for this but, but is there a strategy to, to really take of florida and in terms of printing is ready to under more pressure to recognize the need for a political track. the 2 state solution can be used in a more meaningful way to, to kind of leverage political change in the form and the palestinian system, which is also a necessary component of moving forward. so so, so this is

a symbolic step in many respects, but it's a fucking photos that from, from the perspective of some to european states. and it could well kind of be the beginning process of more in europe and maybe even more you're more important in europe and tell me alongside this, you're seeing your views on that. is this the beginning of something? and if so, what is it? the beginning of, as i'm not sure, but this is the beginning of some the guy i can tell you something about what happened in 99. we had 2 in the negotiations folded towards the building and degree meant by making the full 1999 a according to the also the stages. now nothing happened in on that date and the fragment is still on, on these various side was somebody by the name of the bean in teneo. and they a, and the police being a leader. so say if by debt to date a,

there is no developmental, nothing will happen. we really recognize what we would be clear. you need let to leave it for this thing and state and they will, you won't be in country. so salt that today they should follow and that the idea and there was a lean conference, a i think february 99. you can reach a deal was to, to declare that if you know is in, in fuel mass, there is no development. that would be a little less, a decision of that you do so produce up both of those, the price being in the state. i went to yes, there are real side. and i talked to the to me about about that was a vending deposition. and i asked him, or what does he think about? and he said the following thing you'll see, you'll have to know is important for me when the war simple. the 1st thing in calls back. what i'm worried about is that it is not enough. namely, we already had done that, i remember the number 123 countries, which

a recognize the police being est since november, 1988 when day, and by just being as kingsdale mind about it, 2 state solution. now, what i'm worried about is once the world recognizes as the police thing and state to the wordly beat such as side do it, what do you do deep and we look, go ahead with that. it is not enough for me. what i need is peace review. i need it . those dates of motion, but the read one. so i'm not sure that the types that that is exactly what i wrote, but told me then, i mean it is not the same situation. so to use a m o mall, past the scenes today then. and of course we cannot come buried but live with this one should remember something like that. meaning that even i say i, i think so even this today. so our fax did not want to be an empty shell. go that

i'm telling you what it's doing is between not be enough. and the to might be a substitute guild for real stages like pushing for peaceful re a piece. pushing the 2 sides to webspace to julian icon. i see you nodding this this at the so sorry, go ahead. look at the, come on for us just because the nodding was strongest there. well i, i don't. well, you'll see by then. so it was, was very interesting and very true. i mean, i thought a lot about this and i can't help. but i think the, the diplomatic approach to building up the resolutions demanding and then to the occupations. and indeed, the strategy of the ceiling recognition said palestine and one way this has been effect. yeah. for the past and use because those things have not gone to the posting is one single square inch a territory ever. it is a direct process between these readings and the palestinians that have agreed that

but also actions by the palestinians such as the intifada on the ground that triggered israel to actually engage in those processes. and i think that should give us some quotes for reflection. it's very, very clear to me, but the only thing that they've got to drive is towards the 2 state solution to any political solution that guarantees the rights of the palestinians as well as the israelis at the end of it, these pressure on israel, you can have been taught general assembly recognized pablo started, you can give us time for membership of the us, it will not give so control of the whole westbank control of casa for an international system of administration of jerusalem julia to yeah, i was, i mean, i'm very much in agreement with all of that and i think my son, susan, my question is on the beginning of some kind of european strategy. oh no. and i think what, what is being said, but,

but by the truly get to the that feature to the right point by and then on cell recognition will do right now. and the question is whether there is an underlying strategy that can increase the pressure on the route to take the necessary steps to move toward the political tracks, whether the europeans are prepared to roll out the slaves and engage a more honestly and will prepare and some of the steps that are needed to, to leverage palestinian political reform. i mean, these are the key dimensions that will create the space. so not for a process. i agree with kind of the con, this question or international pressure. an ice summation is critical, not the way the government, but i think also these really public in terms of showing that there is no viable alternative if they want to be a exec data and the stakeholder moving forward. but the same of the palestinian, so they need to recognize that there was a, by that alternative to offer assistance. but that also in the sense that takes then

now taking the steps to change it to, to, to home, their internal make up, which is always been a huge handicapping off of the rails in a sense and an easy way for way from political tools to so don't okay, so i've asked all of you about state code and you've pretty much all answered by framing it in the wider context of negotiations, piece proportion, how do you get to a long term solution? so in that case, you'll see, let me go back to you and ask you this because you were an initiator in the also piece process 30 years ago and it failed. it didn't work, but it remains the most significant, most comprehensive push for peace in the history of this conflict. what lessons did you learn about that and about it's failure that you think could potentially be applied today? i would, i believe that the, the most important thing is that you can piece if both you can make bases both sides a of ego to make peace. i'm not sure about the felt about it may have it may

a suggest ideas. hey, i don't think that the policy is going to impose the new, the on the palestinians, not on diesel. and he's a piece and they, and does he like in my view, the most important thing is that they use rarely government. we change. i mean, give us the other people and you have to day and the p a is way on the 1st thing aside. and we also have difficulties between hamas and, and, and the p o a l 5, a, and a, the, or the age of a, of the president. i think that the a president, the mazda in the hold of us is ready for peace is, is a big simpleton, something with the simple, don't get those dates of lucian. i am not i will waiting for his replacement a or no, no, no, not expecting it to happen. bill. and he has

a policy is about the full full i believe. even full guns, if you remember, the guns is a defense mean is still a invited him to his a home and use way, and the was a big fuss about the how can you invite a couple of mazda deal, but the beauty, i believe that in europe the bill of the east, the experienced and didn't know that which may help us a lot, a to a get to day, to day to state the solution. and the regret 40 europe was not involved in the last use. in the past, it was in the ball involved in, in the 8 the read the various declaration. if you remember in other things a, in the last years if you did not happen. so you're saying the major stumbling block here is these really leadership, the current government is in place. and what would need to happen for things to change in any kind of significant way would be for the as really political landscape really to the change. but join the, the,

the leaders whether isn't that yahoo, his coalition partners, they have 0 incentive to call new elections. so, and we've been at this in this sort of spaces for several months, right? because they, they could potentially lose seats and lose power if they called new elections. so do we also just cross our arms and wait for the clock to run out on this government, which we won't be for several years in the also in his reading of his writing politics, i think it's clear that netanyahu fee is a part of the government because of the kind of pos, no cost of the not just in terms of him being forced for power, potentially having to, to, to face new trial. so he totally desperate to stay in power. but i think there was also a big question for the moment of how much outside the alternatives were really offer on a new pathway towards peace that you'll see it suggested that big gaps isn't a better place that i think for most people and you want to um, but nothing, yahoo,

i get coverage and what would it be for us? yeah. but, but from, from the outside of outside of israel, there is a strong sense that actually there is a degree of alignment amongst the main parties in the months of why the population . the now is not the time to piece with palestinians. there isn't desire is there isn't a willingness to move towards a 2 state solution actually by beating the drums of war and the kind of right when the time you strengthen your political position. so i think, you know, the model in a new government, i think from the outside of israel, that the concern and skepticism there are enhanced the sense that actually a little bit as an actor both increased international pressure, his route to administer, to convince both the potential lead and the why the population the, the way forward in terms of their own spaces in the world, in their relations when the west and the global south will be dependent on, on making the kind of a willingness to move in georgia to track that others are asking us to try not to

sound normalization deal, so they're doing that in their own way. but i think everyone, everyone is, i'm as leading into the idea now that you have to pressure these raise and you have to show them the cost until the right to lation and non deal making with the states . if there is to be a shift to a kind of side bring statehood back into this conversation. there has been just a few days ago, 2 days ago and a very concrete, measurable impact of the recognition of palestinian statehood and it away. it is when the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court sought arrest warrants against i'm us leaders. yes. but also is really leaders, namely the prime minister and the defense minister that could not have happened and he could not be seeking those arrest warrants. if palestine had not been recognized as a member state of the court, so this is one direct, clear, impactful way in which state hood does move the needle. and that's totally right.

you know, without state to, we wouldn't have the i c, c, a cold for prosecution. i bought this kind of incremental list approach of the seeking great to international recognition membership of u. n. bodies, international bodies, that kind of thing. he's all very well, you know, it's good, it's a good strategy to bless you, but i will not give post. i'm an actual site. what gives you a state is your, the country from which you want to become a state succeed from. if you like, the color funny is not succeeding from it. i'm just using a figure of speech not succeeding from isabel asked to accept that you will become a state, is where it holds the key here. this is why there is as judy and says growing in special consensus. that needs to be pressure on israel to make this happen. my question is, will that be such as pressure?

the europeans have totally failed to put pressure on israel imposter cage to be built by territories as they had been required to do for a very long time. and the us, when folks have happened, have taken from the side of these ladies, and there is no sign that the u. s. has prepared to put any meaningful pressure on israel to do the right thing, whether the bottom, the administration or future trump administration. okay, so there's a, there's really a $10000.00 foot question in here somewhere and you'll see this will go to you. you mentioned earlier that piece happens if both sides wanted of israel strategy right now is to occupy part of palestine be occupied, westbank, east jerusalem. and to blockade the other part, garza this, i'm not sure that many people in israel today would say apart from the extreme right. okay. because their policy is, annexation settled, the land drive out the palestinians. they have set as much. we know what they think

apart from the extreme, right. i'm not sure there's that many is really is who would say this is working for us and do do. is there a momentum? is there a critical mass of israelis who think we need to try something different because occupation and blockading has resulted in this? no questions. no question. i'm in use eating the numbers. i mean the l a. so they say i get a little because surveys and the box is on. so this, but a, you see that in that then you all himself is very unpopular. i, i think that he was never so i'm functionality in his a loan for me to come to a career. he's faulty. it became much is small. now in the, in the bows. people do not want to and next that westbank for sure those guys are the so a, i've seen that they a different the government, the use right in a would be more much more relevant for the a, for most of the,

of these ladies. and they can tell you about the icbc in dallas to see this decision a and i was one of those will want that he is ready to join the icbc in december of 2000 a. but they regretfully did not. they happen, but a, and as you may know, it was, is riley's and just from a broad hole where the biggest bushes fall for the establishment of the i c. c. but the i, that is, is the problem is that they, the decision, they all say the prosecute the a to at least threatens things. it least the fault fully. why and let them know because people even use the not the, the as an admirers of nathaniel will not like a to see the, a bread minister inside the situation. and mainly because it was

actually they connected to the accusations against come us even if it was not the quinn and they, they how much the divisions, i'll a moral it most serious student defended that both sides a see if it was balanced a well, if use a main menus riley's will do an else bold say nothing else. it's a simpleton, so i, i don't see these things changing that idea. what can change the situation? for example, a president quickly binding a has a plan which is a strategic allow you to seek is it really is of awfully the hostages. it is a lie, a sweet this o d r a b a, and a negotiations on the basis of it by his being in a state, but tv deep all his be polluted a 2 day in real time since the washington post some months ago. he never actually

studied a publicly and i believe that it least for him now to stand up and say, this is an american or feel to both sides that might have a much bigger impact on they is really a public opinion then. okay. the sanction. so all things like that, i'm not saying that sounds do not they have in the book, but i sometimes down having to come to thought they they, they've come to in book. and i think that thinking about body spins a is, is the wrong way that the right way is to put an option and to see whole supported and to create even is where it says the real debate to day. it is difficult to have at the bank because the offer of, of president that i get all, but i have seen the future will do opinions is not on the agenda. i don't or all

right gentlemen, we have to run. that's all the time we have it today, but i really value your time. thank you very much for your perspectives and your analysis today. and you'll see bill in julian going, stacy and con ross. thank you for joining us and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com for further discussion. good or facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on the x, our handle at asia inside stored from me several then you're in the entire team here in don't buy from the a meeting of minds with israel committing genocide before our eyes and none of our mainstream politicians across the board seem to have a problem with it. campaigner andrew fine, stay and photographer shock you do on, on active is on the crisis against each one of us. these are with this,

and this is upon us. as with this is to be able to validate for the seeing around us studio will be on scripting part to own disease. ellis themes in the gaza strip, as is the last continues. there's a deliberate mission of posting and humanity in western media and it needs to be questioned, sustains coverage that actively humanizes as readings and actively humanizes palestinians. this is not the time for doing this to kind of wait tracking those stories, examining the journalism and the effect that news coverage can have on democracies everywhere. here at the listing the best, the

. ringback the, [000:00:00;00] the po, until mccrae, this is the news our lives from coming up in the next 60 minutes. spain islands in norway says i will freaking noise. a palestinian state is wrong because it's invested is in protest is ready as products continue across scouts or at least 20 people that killed,