to 0 fellows to find suggest is through the courts, fairly straightforward in terms of establishing command responsibility as families and a lawyer space, a terrible deal in the search for the truth, the lost souls of syria. now just the era norway, ireland, and spain announced that they will recognize an independent palestinian state. we love in european nations follow suit. and what does this means to publicize efforts to become a full member of the united nations? this is inside story, the hello and welcome to the program. i'm several of any until now. most western countries have maintained that they will formerly recognize palestinian statehood only at the end of a peace process with israel. but after nearly 7 months of israel's devastating war

and gaza that has killed more than $35000.00 palestinians, norway, ireland, and spain say they won't wait any longer. the irish prime minister drew parallels with his own country's declaration of independence from british rule. but the european union is divided on the issue and logic powers like france say, it's not the right time to recognize a palestinian state. and the u. s. veto still holds back palestine is bid to gain full membership at the united nations. so what does this increasing recognition of palestinian statehood mean? we'll put that to a guest in a moment 1st. so this report from image and camera policy going to be recognized as an independent state from the 28th of may. but at least 3 more european countries today, arden's norway and spain are 9 saying that we recognize the space of policy for each of us when i undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give

effect to the decision that the grand israel has stepped up. it's bombardment across garza, a will that has killed more than $35000.00 palestinians and reduced to much of the strip to rubble on my sensor. i'll pull the steamer. i wish ignition of palestine is in support of motor forces that are on a retreating front and a protracted in cru conflict. this is an investment in the only solution that can bring lasting pace in the middle east. a 2 state solution video. i think that the 2 state solution is best for both the palestinians and israelis. and this is the only way to ensure peace in the region. and the demarcation line should be from the almost disagreement of 1949 with your recently as the shad capital. it's the other european countries will join suit, including slovenia and molto. israel has responded with anger,

immediately recruited some buses from new way in orland. israel will not remain silent in the face of those undermining its sovereignty and endangering its security. today's decision sends a message to the palestinians and the world. terrorism pays these countries chose to reward from us any run by recognizing a palestinian state. will palestinian officials of welcome the decision and this is a very important step in determining that i understand people our people to says distribution. and also it's a, it's a lot most only a most of the, the fact that it has the busy now and on saturday, that's fine. that's fine to do is to patient to prosecute to the international criminal who is requesting arrest warrants for these ready to administer and

defense minister to the war. and garza. he's also seeking warrants for the rest of the to m. s. leaders for the october 7th attack on his ro, our reactions among west. the leaders have been split on this with the us and u. k. speaking act against me for the european union says the icpc must be respected. wednesday's decision by the european nations to recognize palestine could create a split among western allies within major international organizations. bought gifts policy showing another victory, and it's long johnny to achieve full state code. imaging came out to 0, the inside story. the so let's bring in our guest intel, i mean, you'll see bill in a former is really cabinet administer who initiated the also piece process in 1992 in barcelona. julian barnes basically directs the middle east and north africa program at the european council on foreign relations and in the galloway in the u.

k. con ross, a former british diplomat assigned to the united nations who resigned and founded the non profit advisory group independent diplomat. a warm welcome to all of you. you'll see i want to start with u. v is really government sees this as a deeply hostile i'm as a for recognizing palestinian statehood somehow diminished israel. does it? nope. in no way. i mean, you asked me, i will, the is this is they to, to, i believe that there is no other and there is no better solution for both people. then to have to state the solution. in my view, it should be under an umbrella alpha configuration of 2 independent and silver and states a but the thought that the motion is the basis for any solution. and between the 2 people. as long as you want to have the solution, if you don't want to have a solution, then no solution is acceptable by you. but to say that it is healthy and use why?

i don't see how. why do you mentioned this idea of, if you don't want the solution, do it, are you implying are these really government doesn't want the solution? there is no question to the nothing in the us government, not all of them with goals that the reasonable for the fix which is holding all the others a by doing x. and they, they, they close out against any solution with the police, dns and then they developed a law or any development conroy us. as a former diplomat, you, once worked, we set it at the un, what you actually did at the time. and you've explained this on your sub stack was to try and increase palestine status at the united nations. that was part of your, your diplomatic efforts there. so. so based on that experience, you woke up today and saw this news of recognition of palestinian statehood and you thought what? i thought it was a positive step. i think it diminishes the diplomatic space for israel. it shows

very clearly the israel's actions in gaza has reduced its diplomatic credit, but to have made it more isolates. and then in the world, all of that is very positive. and i think it moves as towards the conversation about what kind of solution loan ton that might be for the israel palestine situation. i don't, i'm the lines in my own mind. but the only thing that will work to move is around the tools that kind of solution is international pressure and serious international pressure, much, much smaller than we have seen up until now. to julian, i want to ask you whether this recognition is going to build momentum for more recognition, but allow me a little bit of a preamble some, some facts for viewers here because it's not the 1st time far from it. but the countries have made this kind of move, in fact, 143 of the 193 member states of the united nations already recognized palestine, norway, spain, an island added to that group. that will be a $146.00. palestine is

a member also of many international organizations, including unesco, the international criminal court and inter paul and this month, the un general assembly overwhelmingly voted to back alice times bid for a full membership. but the us has consistently blocked it at the security council. so at the moment palestine remains a non member, un observers state. that's it status. so back to that question does, does this recognition of statehood by 3 european countries? but the same time does that bill moment and for more recognition really reflects the direction of travel. as you, you said in the lead on that as being a, a whole series of concepts taken to a different level. the recognition visit is 3. a quite important. busy in countries coming out now on top of the 9 e u member states and did already recognize as a sign, i think it's very important countries like frost and even the u. k. putting this on

the table. now. i think there are others like belgium and sylvania in the you're also thinking of this, the decisions are clearly, there is a lot of a thinking about the recognition that something needs to change the parties on the ground to stop the situation and kind of move to the interested and call it the need to to try to establish a new equation. i think the real question is, as well, comes along side it show. we have more european states moving this direction. we see a lot stronger the global south. last to be pushing for this, but, but is there a strategy to, to really take of florida and in terms of printing is ready to under more pressure to recognize the need for a political track. the 2 state solution can be used in a more meaningful way to, to kind of leverage political change in the form and the palestinian system, which is also a necessary component of moving forward. so so, so this is a symbolic step in many respects, but it's a fucking photos that from, from the perspective of some to european states. and it could well kind of be the

beginning process of more in europe and maybe even more you're more important in europe and tell me alongside this, you're seeing your views on that. is this the beginning of something? and if so, what is it? the beginning of, as i'm not sure, but the use that is the beginning of some big guy. i can tell you something about what happened in 99. we had to, in the negotiations for it towards the bill and, and degree meant by making the full 1999 a according to the also the stages. now nothing happened in on that date and the fragment is still on, on these various side was somebody by the name of the bean in teneo. and they a, and the police being a leader. so say if by debt to date a, there is no developmental, nothing will happen. we really recognize what we would be clear you need let to early it, but it's being in state and they will,

you won't be in country. so salt that today they should follow and that the idea and there was a building conference, a, i think february 99. you can reach a deal was to, to declare that if you know is in, in fuel mass, there is no development. that would be a little less, a decision of that you do so produce up both of those, the pricing and the state. i went to yes, a rough side. and i talked to the, to me about about that was a, been in the position. and i asked him, or what does he think about? and he said the following thing, you'll see, you'll have to know what is important for me when the war simple, the 1st thing and calls back. what i'm worried about is that it is not enough. namely, we already had done that, i remember the number 123 countries, which a recognize the police being est since november,

1988 when day about his being as kingsdale mind about it 2 state solution. now, what i'm worried about is once the world recognizes as the police thing and state of the wordly beat such as side do it, what do you do deep and we look, go ahead with that. it is not enough for me. what i need is peace re q. i knew that those dates of motion, but the read one. so i'm not sure that the types that that is exactly what i wrote, but told me then, i mean it is not the same situation. so to use a m o mo, bus it seems today then, and of course we cannot come buried but live with this one should remember something like that. meaning that even i say i, i think so if it is today. so our father did not want to say this would be an empty shell. go that i'm telling you what it's doing is between not big enough and the to

might be a substitute guild for real stages. like pushing 4 piece for re a piece. pushing the 2 sides towards piece to julian icon. i see you nodding this this at the so sorry, go ahead. look at the, come on for us just because the nodding was strongest there. well, well i, i don't. well, you'll see by then said was, was very interesting and very true. i mean, i felt a lot about this and i can't help. but i think the, the diplomatic approach to building up the resolutions demanding and then to the occupations. and indeed, the strategy of the ceiling recognition. so tell us time. and one way this has been effect. yeah. for the past and use because those things have not gone to the posting is one single square inch territory ever. it is the direct process between these readings and the palestinians that have agreed that but also actions by the palestinians such as the intifada on the ground that triggered israel to actually

engage in those processes. and i think that should give us some quotes for reflection. it's very, very clear to me, but the only thing that they've got to drive is towards the 2 state solution to any political solution that guarantees the rights of the palestinians as well as the is riley's at the end of it is the pressure on israel. you can have been todd general assembly recognized pablo started. you can give us time for membership of the us. it will not give so control of the whole westbank control of casa for an international system of administration of jerusalem. julia to yeah, i was, i mean, i'm very much in agreement with all of that. and i think what my status is, and my question is on the beginning of some kind of european strategy. oh no. and i think what, what is being said, but, but by the truly get to the that feature to the right point by and then all cell recognition will do right now. and the question is whether there is an underlying

strategy, then kinda increase the pressure on the route to take the necessary steps to move towards the track. whether the europeans are prepared to roll out the sleeves and engage a more honestly and, and will prepare and some of the steps that are needed to, to leverage palestinian political reform. i mean, these are the key dimensions that will create the space. so not for a process, i agree with canada, the con, this question or international pressure, an ice summation is critical, not the way the government, but i think most of these really public in terms of showing that there is no viable alternative if they want to be a exec data and the stakeholder moving forward, but the same of the palestinian so they need to recognize that there was a by that alternative to offer assistance. but that also in the sense that takes them now taking the steps to change it to, to, to home, their internal make up, which is always been a huge handicapping off of the rails in

a sense and an easy way for away from political adults desoto. okay, so i've asked all of you about statehood and you've pretty much all answered by framing it in the wider context of negotiations. piece of the push and how do you get to a long term solution. so in that case, you'll see, let me go back to you and ask you this because you were an initiator in the also piece process 30 years ago and it failed. it didn't work, but it remains the most significant, most comprehensive push of a piece in the history of this conflict. what lessons did you learn about that and about it's failure that you think could potentially be applied today? would i believe that the, the most important thing is that you can be if both you can make bases both sides a of ego to make peace. a little too about us. old bobby. it may have, it may a suggest ideas a, i don't think that they,

as philip bulky, is going to impose the need to on the palestinians, not on the diesel. and he's a piece and they, and does he like in my view of the most important thing is that they use rarely government. we change. i mean, if you have other people and you have to day and the d a is way on the bodies being a side. and we also have difficulties between hamas and the p. o, a l 5 a, and the the, or the age of the, of the president. i think that the a president, the mazda in the bus is ready for use is, is a big simpleton, stuff with the simple don't the tool states illusion. i am not i waiting for ease, replacement, a or no, no, not, not expecting it to happen, bill. and use a bulk name is about the full full i believe. even full guns if you remember, the guns is a defense mean is still a invited him to his

a home and use way. and the was a big fuss about how can you invite a couple mazda to your home, but the beauty, i believe that in europe they'll, uh, they'll use the experience and did they no legs, which may help us a lot, a, to a get to day. it to that, to state the solution. and regretfully, europe was not involved in the last use in the past. it was involved involved in, in the 80 with the various declaration. if you remember in other things a, in the last year, if it did not happen. so you're saying the major stumbling block here is these really leadership, the current government that is in place and what would need to happen for things to change in any kind of significant way would be for the as really political landscape really to the change. but children, the, the, the, the leaders, whether isn't it, yeah. who, his coalition partners, they have 0 incentive to call new elections. so,

and we've been at this in this sort of spaces for several months, right? because they, they could potentially lose seats and lose power if they called new election. so do we also just cross our arms and wait for the clock to run out on this government, which we won't be for several years in the, in his reading of his really politics. i think it's clear that netanyahu fee is a part of the government because of the kind of pos, no cost of the, not just in terms of him being both for power, but definitely having to, to, to face new trial. so he's pretty desperate to stay in power, but i think there was also a big question for the moment of how much outside the alternatives would really offer a new pathway towards piece that you'll see it suggested that big gaps isn't a better place that i think for most people and you want to, um, but yet yahoo, i get coverage and what would it be for us? yeah. but, but from, from the outside of outside of israel, there is a strong sense that actually there is

a degree of alignment amongst the main parties in the months of why the population . the now is not the time to piece with palestinians. there isn't desire is there isn't a willingness to move towards a 2 state solution actually by beating the drums of war and the kind of right when the chart you strengthen your political position. so i think, you know, the new government, i think from the outside of israel, that the concern and skepticism there are enhanced the sense that actually a little bit as an actor both increased international pressure on his route to get rid of that and to convince both the potential lead and the why the population of the, the way forward in terms of their own spaces in a world in their relations when the west and the global south will be dependent on, on making the kind of a willingness to move in georgia to track that others are all the us to try not to sound normalization deal. so they're doing that in their own way. but i think

everyone, everyone designers leading into the idea now that you have to pressure these res, i'm, you have to show them the cost until the right to lation and non deal making with the states. if there is to be a shift to a con, if i bring statehood back into this conversation, there has been just a few days ago, 2 days ago and a very concrete, measurable impact of the recognition of palestinian statehood and it away. it is when the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court sought arrest warrants against i'm us leaders. yes. but also is really leaders, namely the prime minister and the defense minister that could not have happened and he could not be seeking those arrest warrants. if palestine had not been recognized as a member of the state of the court, so this is one direct, clear, impactful way in which state hood does move the needle. that's totally right. you know, without state to, we wouldn't have the i c, c,

a cold above prosecution. um, but this kind of increments list approach of be seeking great to international recognition. membership of u. n. bodies, international bodies, that kind of thing. he's all very well, you know, it's good. it's a good strategy to bless you, but i will not give post. i'm an actual site. what gives you what state is your, the country from which you want to become a state succeed from? if you like, the california is not succeeding from it. i'm just using a figure of speech not succeeding from isabel asked to accept that you will become a state, is where it holds the key here. this is why there is as judy and says growing in special consensus. that needs to be pressure on israel to make this happen. my question is, will that be such as pressure? the europeans have totally failed to put pressure on israel imposter cage to be built by territories as they had been required to do for

a very long time. and the us, when folks have happened, have taken from the side of these ladies, and there is no sign that the u. s. has prepared to put any meaningful pressure on israel to do the right thing, whether the bottom, the ministration or future trump administration. okay, so there's a, there's really a $10000.00 foot question in here somewhere and you'll see this will go to you. you mentioned earlier that piece happens if both sides wanted of israel strategy right now is to occupy part of palestine be occupied, westbank, east jerusalem. and to blockade the other part, gaza. this is, i'm not sure that many people in israel today would say apart from the extreme right. okay. because their policy is, annexation settled, a land drive out the palestinians. they have said as much, we know what they think apart from the extreme, right. i'm not sure there's that many is really is who would say this is working for us and do do. is there a momentum?

is there a critical mass of israelis who think we need to try something different because occupation in blockading has resulted in this? no questions. no question. i'm in use eating the numbers. i mean the l a. so they say i get a little because surveys and the box is on. so these, but a, you see that in that then you all himself is very unpopular. i, i think that he was never so unpopular in his a loan for me to come to a gallery. oh, he's faulty. it became much is small. now in the, in the bows. people do not want to and next that westbank for sure those guys are the so a, i've seen that they a different the government, the use right in a would be more much more relevant for the a, for most of the, of these ladies. and they can tell you about the icbc in dallas to see this

decision a and i was one of those will want that he is ready to join the icbc in december of 2000 a. but they regretfully did not. they happen, but a, and as you may know, it was, is riley's and just from a broad hole where the biggest bushes fall for the establishment of the i c. c. but the i, that is, is the problem is that they, the decision, they all say the prosecute the a to at least threatens things. it least the fault fully. why and let them know because people even use the not the, the as an admirers of nathaniel will not like a to see the, a bread minister inside the situation. and mainly because it was actually they connected to the accusations against come us even if it was not the quinn and they, they how much the divisions, i'll

a moral it most serious student defended that both sides a see if it was balanced a well, if use a main menus riley's will do an else bold say nothing else. it's a simpleton, so i, i don't see these things changing that idea. what can change the situation, for example, a president quickly binding a has a plan, a which is a strategic allow you to seek is it really is of all for the hostages. it is a lie, a sweet this o d r a b i n, a negotiations on the basis of it. but as being in a state that tv deep, all his people lifting a day in real time sent to washington post some months ago. he never actually studied a publicly and i believe that it least for him now to stand up and say,

this is an american all fell to both sides. that might have a much bigger impact on they is really a public opinion then. okay. it's a sanction. so all things like that, i'm not saying that functions do not, they haven't even book, but i sometimes down having the account built that they, they, they've gone to in buck. and i think that thinking about body spends a is, is the wrong way, the right way is to put in auction and to see whole supported. and degree 8 even is where it says re debate. today it is difficult to have at the bank because the also of president by general, but i have seen the future will do opinions is not on the agenda. i don't. all right gentlemen, we have to run this all the time. we have it today, but i really value your time. thank you very much for your perspectives and your

analysis today. and you'll see bill in julian boring, stacy and con ross. thank you for joining us and thank you to for watching and can see the program again. any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com for further discussion. good or facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. you can also join the conversation on the x, our handle at asia inside stored from me several then you're in the entire team here in don't buy from the the managers to take 9 to the country and k o l g 0. well, goes to gammon with political schools in the 1980s, with sexual bias. i, since there was a big back. so company of battles in which south humans, president was pontiff with deadly gay. i refused to give them my head, will give up power the killing of south pm and the politicians during a routine cabinet between 81986,

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the hi molly inside and though he, a top story is on al jazeera, no way on and in spain have announced they will recognize an independent palestinian state. it's another victory on public steins long journey to obtain full stated. and it further deepens, israel's isolation, all the european nations have also indicated that willingness to follow suit. the prime minister netanyahu has no peace projects for palestine, but missing yahoo is creating so much pain and so much destruction. and so much.