so is the international community, can we also say that builds the cornerstone of democracy is having a free and open democratic process upfront without the tenuous is the decades old piece deal between egypt and israel. the latest exchange of fire on the border expose is a franchise political relationship. the 2 countries insist piece of is best for teacher choice. but for how long as the warren does of regents, this is inside store the hello and welcome to the program and serve any a officially egypt and israel are at peace. but beneath the surface, a diplomatic dispute has been brewing for weeks. israel pushed ahead with its

a salt on the roof of the area southern gaza bordering egypt, ignoring cairo's many objections and exchange of fire that killed at least one objection soldier this week is only worse and already tense relations. both say the incident will not impact the peace deal assigned to more than 4 decades ago. but delta growing is really insist it's, we're on gas that will last as long as it takes until a mazda is completely defeated, while egypt rejects any outcome that will be at the expense of other countries, will bring in our guest and a moment. after this reports by acts as i'm a bitch hold error, scary. the cascades of any junction board a guard killed during an exchange of fire between these rarely and egyptian forces throughout the border crossing. both sides have confirmed the incidents and say, investigations are under way the directions have a great deal of concerns about these developments right at the, at the border of assign i uh these to get their security implicate. sions are,

you know, extremely important for exemption national security concerns in recent years, incidents like these have been rare. but egypt and israel sherell long and complex history shaped by territorial disputes, palestinians brief for state code and regional power dynamics. since israel was established in 9048, multiple conflicts have strained their relations. use the arab, israeli, or of 9067. israel captured this sign i peninsula leading to a prolonged the military occupation. in 1978, the camp david accords marked a turning point, resulting in a peace treaty the following year. and the establishment of a buffer zone between egypt and gaza, known as the philadelphia corey door. initially, israel had sold management of the corey door, controlling the movement of goods and people until its withdrawal from casa in 2005 . since then,

egyptian forces have taken over patrolling duties. but israel still expects old deliveries into the territory essentially slipping high since israel's warrant. gaza began on october, the 7th egypt, often a mediator in the israel palestine conflict has struggled to find success this time . earlier this month is really military to control of the palestinian side of the roof of crossing. the situation further deteriorated when egypt announced it with joined south africa's case at the international court of justice, accusing israel of genocide against palestinians in gaza. as these really army persists with air and crowned assaults, and rough and international pressure mounts and israel to stop killing palestinian civilians relations between the neighbors are frank dinner by to day axels. i'm which alger 0 for inside story. that's

the that's bringing our guests to unpack these issues in london. ha, heavier is a non resident scholar of the middle east program of the carnegie endowment for international peace in tel aviv or a drawing me as a journalist. you are a spokesman for these really governments during the administration of its psycho bean and shimon peres, that was during the also peace process. and in cairo, ambassador hussein hardy is a veteran. egyptian diplomat was involved in the process that led to the egypt. israel piece agreement in 1979. welcome to everybody. but 1st question to you in baset are when you see an egyptian border guard killed in an incident that involved is really troops. what's your level of concern? right. it's not only concern sure about much more than sadness and dismay. that after all these years after assigning the pct but i can 1979. israel has been kind of that,

that many people could ations with such a scale on our borders. and the country with who assigned this piece d hash violates the spirit of the b street. by okay, buying the senior inside of the crossing by the plane troops on the borders of egypt was the governor sip. and on back to anything this war for take months in garza, with the pretext of destroying completely how much not the only descriptions, but almost all across the world. that is the consensus that this objective is use of objective of destroying. how much is it on pain of?

so when we here is it, i usually put additions and the is what i need to send you is i, you are facilitates saying that they are going to continue this war until they destroy thomas. then i'm afraid to say that the question is not thomas the question and that this will or the president government, the israel wants to stay in the state before was the seniors directly. okay. and, and directly with other countries, including egypt today in egypt, or was it, can you pause for a 2nd while i a sorry, excuse i, i can just caught the end of that word. the whole of egypt is, is in morning for i think you are about to say for the death of that border guard. yeah. i did that. yeah. yes. yes. stage of sandstone here that was killed. yes. yes

. for name by use of 80, but it's and i so that's is that he but it's was better today and he is home dog can so shipped by the people and best but it's not something i do want to bring in or redraw me on this uh re your, as we said, former is really government spokes person. you've been through your share of crises . what's your level of concern when you see this gyptian board of card killed in an incident that involved is really soldiers this. that's all i want to expose. my uh, grids, but then also tonight, and also by the way, there are lots of, lots of people in the well, we're not involved with the commercials, 12 cities, but that's not forget what brought about all this. and that is a news, a gag on october, 7th of i'm us on the beach. totally is really. busy dollars and

a and couple team a so it's not just as rarely. oh, you're woke up in the morning and the start of the war it's, it's, it sounds like it, it was for some the us to do because you prompt to accept the fact that next door to you there is this. ready ready bottom of say. ringback rather garbage lown, which by the way is, is by the egyptians themselves. busy it's the extension of the is the. ready ready muslim brotherhood and by the way, i don't think many and with all due respect to a, a muscle. ready sorry is what. ready i'm not sure a present the c c o they did tell me that you wouldn't be so sorry to see come by say it is not destroyed. ready please, critically we can because it's a,

it's a, it's a, it's a dangerous to lead you. ready as well, so i would say that this, this was post on the on as well. and by the way, many and as well, no, the, the cultural, the end, the, for the exchange of, of the hostages is really most of the use in the, in the hands of, from us. so i think we shouldn't come to a to foxridge a conclusions about the current situation. okay. or a couple of things here. so you said multiple times that the war was forced on israel. that's something we hear from is really officials and, and retired is really officials as well. there are, you know, palestinians would dispute that and there are many, many in the international community who would dispute that as well. just as a reminder, door of yours is realized on trial to genocide, the chief prosecutor at the international criminal court is seeking arrest warrants, not just against some of the leaders, but also is rarely leaders for very serious violations of international

humanitarian law. and, but that is that, that's not the conversation we're having today. the conversation we're having today is one about egypt and israel, there's been 45 years of peace. and this is a pretty remarkable achievement because israel does not have great relations with its other neighbors. jordan notwithstanding. so my question to you, if i can come back to that is when you see that an egyptian border guard has been killed, what is your level of concern for the israel egypt relationship? i'm not concerned in the long run because they were talking about tactical incident, which is rick full eh, regrettable in the but, but this, so the, on the associate level, israel and egypt have strong uh you and you know,

of interest and add to this, the fact that both the lean heavily on the us israel for. ready you know into the both and the mandatory a simple to and the full. ready ready economic support, which in the, in the con, dire situation, he is very critical and this is why after the talk of the president, by the end and the bizarre c, c, a, egypt agreed to resume the info or 5 ale file you might have during the 8 so i think i'm not worried in the long run for the relationship between the is the egypt because. busy of not because of a mutual love the separately, but because of interest. okay, let me bring in a ha, how you're on this ha. the when we at the inside story team saw the news cross that

and egyptian border guard had been killed. you know, we sort of collectively our eyebrows were raised because we thought this, this peace between israel and egypt as last. and since 1979, this is one of the few things that can be relied upon in the region. and if there's something at the end, a border, what happens at the border between egypt and gaza is at the center of this piece. so if something, if there's a serious incident, such as the killing of egypt and border guard, who knows what happens next. so i wanted your take on that a little. thank you very much for having me. um, so i think it's important just the frame. there's probably the egyptians were on the side of the border and an area where of course, they're allowed to deploy and sarah territory, this really is they were involved in this incidents are part of the occupying power in unoccupied 3rd street. i. e. gotcha. so, um, so the incident needs to be put into that frame where you're talking about an

incident between members of an occupying force. and by the way, i'm not using these words in an inflammatory fashion, trying to get a rise out of anybody. this is the situation international law, this a situation according to the united nations security council and has been referred to such many, many times. so, you know, it's quite concerning to see how that can be a sort of mist against the backdrop of all of this. this is an occupation and quite a brutal military campaign. and also when we think about the last 8 months, it's been a 1st of very an effective campaign. but putting about to one side, it's being a very reckless one. and the law of unintended consequences comes into play and this has something but many ser, if you're a 2 analysts up and warning about including yourself over the past 8 months that if you escalates and you do so in such a reckless fashion,

then lots of other things going to happen that you did not find for you, did not account for it because you kind of conference like throwing such as oil down, but at a mentioning and imagining that you're going to be able to account for all of the factors that will happen to it along the way. and of course this particular incident is one such example of these unintended consequences and we can't be sign going about this. we could see many such incidents in the future and they could spill. busy over and they could develop into much grades or crises and i think that's important for people to read, keep noise and keep in mind. so ambassador hardy, you heard what h, i said to there about unintended consequences. and it is really the center of this discussion and why we wanted to have it because you have what could look like an isolated incident that you don't know exactly where it's going to go. and i, i hear the message by, or you who was telling us earlier, look, there is that there, there are common interests between israel and egypt to keep the peace, to preserve this peace deal. i do understand that, but we are sort of

a tuned to this idea of unintended consequences. what, what's your view on that? do you see a potential for things spinning out of control between israel and egypt? uh yeah, i have this uh, this will continue is uh, in guys uh uh there is a possibility of course that things would get out of control and not finally between egypt and israel, but between visit and or the neighboring get conflicts. and this is a possibility that we should, they should take seriously into uh, info account at the neither the 1st thing in as a no, the zip chance and all the items will uh, edu live was eh, and the war never ends that uh, has this, it made it uh, more than 100000 between that and, and,

and the 2 days ago. if i may use uh, between brackets the expression by your order i guess from london. uh, unintended consequences, a consequence that is gonna be shipped has targeted or have target that the palestinians buy this thing and civilians. innocent both scenes. uh and again the where it's a show that shots or get shelter town where they shelter because of the is the e ministry as of them to move to this gap. so and then and, and this, and this attack not less than $45.00, a penny senior has died. and the is a, he is a very unique prime minister said that it was in something that it's, that it's,

as you can see and that's, that's it. so as long this war continues the way that we, we have with miss uh, of course, that is a possibility that things could get out of comfortable. that is another find that i would like to, to discuss briefly. your guess from just had said that part i choose egypt, that egypt is not to whether it does not to pause. what is their end is doing? i gave this thomas in in does that because it has differences. was how much i went on the package. what, what he said was that egypt wouldn't mind seeing how much defeated when he and defeated the defeated here. defeated here means if we think the announcement of the is the, the senior officials. if they tell you, you're busy,

made hundreds of thousands of palestinians in order in order to claim that you have destroyed certainty, $5000.00 on elements or fighters of thomas. but this is not the point my, the fund that i want to meet. if we have problems was from us and we have of course differences was how much, if we have problems and differences, how most we are, we are capable of working them out. but we never will never believe, or will never support that if they're wanting directly implicit, the, or a, or explicitly any direct at that on the part of seeing is that, that, that, that claims that she talks to destroy how much. and how much is mazda part of seen young people? how much is not that? but as the young people decide to have found that they want to make?

now personally speaking, i guess we the, we now we should, we, we understand that the reason given by the is it i, the government and it is a heated observers that come on faith there's, for this war and that the october 7th at best buy i believe i'm afraid that we are beyond that point. now. we are beyond that point. now. we don't to, we've done 2 and one more than 100000 people because of the attacks that have, that does not mean that the reset for these effects. but speaking about the attacks, we should not be doing this. i fax it back to as long as these video keep patient in in, in the west bank and because of a disease of the gods tested it would remain in place. i guess i dont throughout similar fx in the future and i hope i hope that's clear minded,

is it i use who do you want to live a piece of security when it was with the neighbors who are at us and muslims who have no problems with globe's, this things would use or is it a helix. but on one condition, that is a very i lies that security for it isn't a shot and never come at the expense of insecurity at 4 evictions for but as dns and other countries and other people. i hope this, i hope that this message will get through it. is it a public opinion we hold in the meantime, we hold that the discussions that we presume today or tomorrow, in order that the lead cease fire a agreement in guys a way to buy from us. so it really easily is a hostage. it's okay and best buy is available to retrieve. but what for the

prisoners and the denise, but a senior president edited he is at that point and he, uh, we would, we would see it would be implemented or though or no be is it a prime minister yesterday made that made, made a declination declared that the conditions of how much unacceptable, in other words, in other words, that he is not ready for that is the side of the guys. so as on this or continues, i don't think that we are in a position to speak about peace between egypt and is it a? yes. okay, the respectfully i have to jump in because i need to make sure this remains a dialogue. and so i need to, to bring a or a back into this conversation where we, i want to bring it back to is real egypt. a relation is, what is israel's calculus? i assume one strategic objective for is really is to keep egypt on board. the ties or frame publicly we've seen that headlines,

egypt has joined south africa's court case against israel, that the international court of justice. uh the is really newspaper hearts reported that egypt was considering downgrading its relations with israel of suspending the peace treaty. even this was only this was just earlier this year over israel's planned operation in the in rasa. what is israel's calculus when it comes to egypt? a i think a israel. ready a and, and obviously i'm not to any official position now and, and candidly i can say that i don't the. ready subscribe to the party suit my government right now. the however, i think the, the, the uh um is really, uh these are the government now uh is holding to is. ready

i can do whatever they can in the, in the guys uh without going too far with it. ready licensed agent, so i, it is, it is no secret that on the, on the operational level between the, the army commanders and their security services. this is. busy wrong a global ration open channels and, and. ready ready people try on both sides all the time to make sure that things don't go too far, even, even in this time it's more and the n a and again, icons on the estimate, the importance of the american, the goal, which comes up with that. all those. ready great, if i d as above, how to move on to how to perhaps look at the transition. beer is what's the voice over the so i would say that god could it was a dual questions as to is go forwards the window

or as long as a and it's possible. and as long as the international environment allows, and the pressure from is road itself allows. but at the same time, keep the channels open with the making sure we don't go while government doesn't go too far and jeopardize them really. ready one of the most important inclusion. so the essence that israel and i think egypt as well have and that is. ready ready gibson uh is really be streaming by the way a muscle. how are you. ready eh, bargain today, not get 7 to 9, a egypt visual of these 32 i was involved in. ready and 1993, a peace agreement with the by the scene is in the status of gravity. and many

voices would like to see is a living side by side uh with a independent but a see is stay. however, uh what really its so be those. uh, those slow. okay, what's the, i'm going to have the master gentlemen. i'm going to jump in. understood, thank you very much already for that. ha, what is egypt passed here? uh, because egypt has voiced, is this content we, we talked about citing with south africa, the international court of justice. what else kind of do um, so there are different options that are available to cairo. uh, but of course you'd have to bring an egyptian government spokesperson to elaborate on what they will choose to do. um, but of course, leverage and disregard is very difficult. um you see that the way in which israel has wage this war over the past 8 months on the people of guys has been

met with a quite fierce resistance in terms of public opinion, not in egypt, none of the are broad but internationally and worldwide. and the i c j case has taken place or is taking place right now. and you've seen a lot of expressions of opposition and so on. none of that has stopped israel. none of that has caused it to engage in to cease fire. and there's really no question that they will continue. um, not in order, frankly, just to get their hostages, because they've already said very clearly that they respect of, of that they had still intend to pursue this, this war and gaza. but because there is an environment of impunity, and that environment of impunity is underwritten by washington's refusal to

actually use the leverage that it has on these re, the government leverage that. it has leverage that it could use that it could utilize. and that could actually change the calculus of this way. the government quite fundamentally because of course, washington provides it with a continuous political cover up the un, but also provision of military arm. so we leverage here that we're talking about is an cairo's. it's washington d. c. and it's there, but i think we need to be asking the question about what can we do in order to it that force is real to change behavior. it's as you know, the i c, j, and dance and asked me to seem to want very much. all right, that's the time we have for today gentlemen. i want to thank our guests for joining us and this conversation, ha, how we are over. you drove me and about that or who sent hardy and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website now says 0

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a week, the look at the world's top business stories. how much of those plans going to cost is the rebuilding going to cost and who pays from global markets and economies to construction and small businesses. we have just started seeing installation come down and many costs, well to understand how it affects daily lives, outline forth how big a problem is labeled food insecure. counting the cost on just the award winning deb investigations, the gift from detailing in science,

inter toes from asia and the pacific $1.00 oh $1.00 east on out to 0. the the color that i missed all the attain. this isn't use our life from the coming up in the next 60 minutes. these really minute tree is pushing even further into rock among vault in gauze of south west and areas along the photos. egypt. ignoring and international outcry is well problems and now the tent and constant in a circle say so it's telling $21.00 people so africans of voting in the general election.