patients in box, they say that any resolution has to come from the parties on the ground and they put the focus back on israel and her boss and called for him us to release all captives in order to secure a piece for guys. and this is a position that they've been saying it on the way into this meeting. i can tell you that robert would was confronted by media from all over the world and asked about a proposed resolution on rafa. that is being circulated at this time by algeria an elected member of the security council. this is a resolution that would call for an end to the rod on roster offensive. but the united states has continuously said that action of the security council does not help the situation that any resolution must come from the parties on the ground. so while he is certainly acknowledging the humanitarian situation in rasa and gaza, more broadly, the need for israel to crack down on

a tax on the convoys and to ensure that more aid is getting in at the end of the day, the us will not take action at the united nations against israel, that position is pretty clear and it has been on changing and has been on changing . i mean, how difficult has, and us has position become well, they are in an awkward position here at the united nations because the majority of member states, we've seen it and a number of general assembly resolutions want an immediate cease fire and they wanted the security council to do more to make that happen. uh, the fact that the united states has supported icy j action against russia in the past is seen as a double standard and a bit hypocritical. so they're in an awkward position, but they're not alone. they do have some allies in the council that are also saying

it's not the right time for a resolution, although that those allies are becoming fewer and farther between as the assaults and the terrible imagery that we see of civilians being harmed to become even more frequent right, so christmas salumi reporting from the united nations headquarters where the un security council has been holding a meeting on the mid east with the focus on guys. all right, in the that does it for us. we'll keep an eye on that meeting. we laraca, you can find more information. i'm adding to our websites. jones out to 0. com the the

spain, ireland in norway have all promised to recognize a palestinian state in the latest diplomatic lo to israel. what will this mark a significant shift in the west position, or is it is some upset, a case of too little, too late. that conversation is coming up, but 1st, the international criminal court requested arrest warrants for leaders of both israel and from ass, charging them with war crimes and crimes against humanity. the court has long been criticized for only going after leaders from the global south. so does this decision signal that it is now willing to prosecute western powers and their close

allies will ask that question to the ice is 1st, chief prosecutor is weeks headliner, luis moreno a company. the reason why i didn't know a couple thanks so much for joining me on upfront. no, my friend came in my bedroom. i'd like to discuss these issues. probably. absolutely. let's start with what happened on monday this past monday, the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court. kareem khan said that he had requested arrest warrants for war crimes and crimes against humanity for is really prime minister benjamin netanyahu. and his really defensive minister you'll have the lot, as well as 3 members of him as a these warrants against israeli leaders would be the very 1st time. and if the icpc is ever indicted a close ally of western powers, tell me about the significance of something like this of what it provide some signing. the no meant to the 2nd thing that was kind of tempted with

a legal limits. and let me finish the process, the but the, but the good that was collecting evidence. now he presented them into the judges. so that was why we will be decided by the judges. none of us to get to the judge account, decided not to do it. so it's a process now that the 3 judges, one is a me from romania, one from beginning, one from france. they will debate that with this site. and they can be cited in the months like important case on a months. so that, that process, one of the arguments that has been made by israel and by the united states is the question of legitimacy and jurisdiction in particular. israel's not pointing to the i c, c. they say we don't recognize the authority of the i, c c. well assigned, it has yet to be formally recognized as a state by the un. so there is no me there. you went to go? no, no, no, i'm sorry. you my time when a my time by the time request to be our intervention for 3. and they were briefing me and that the and i said i'm talking to you another state. but after that of

october 20 to us, the un general assembly decided that by the time if they not the member of the un but just state and therefore an incentive thing by saying became a state part of the organ. tasha in the court. i am friends with the one. the court accepted the 50 gigs which will be done in the pipe and category, meaning gatzo, westbank. i need to tell him that why the court have not use the current if i have, but how much gonna be the crime standing in guys that went through. if i come back to guess that was even hostages does why? the particulars are, has jurisdiction on how much the crime committed allegedly let me do by then. yeah . cool. happening, gas that many times. why the basically the it doing die. so it was it not investigating things has happened in the fire. he probably within k who kind of going to from got that on a or in get there isn't a risk for or it is granted. any country that's a signatory to the i. c c would have not just the right,

but really an obligation. yes. to arrest and that's in yahoo to arrest. you'll have the lar, if they ever stepped foot inside of their countries. that's a yahoo! had an interesting response to that reality when he was asked about potential travel concerns. he stated, i am not concerned about traveling. i'm not concerned at all about our status. the prosecutor should be worried about his status. so the 1st thing i want to ask is, how likely is it? in reality that nothing yahoo would be arrested when visiting a foreign country where the dead do what the subject had no issue deficient, then the police implemented them in the, in the us, if the police, if the i go on implement things, there's no, i'm going to be i so the judge isn't that just need the pin on states. right. and for instance, for is stuff i forgot to say to mr. machines, you cannot come here, but then one day they accepted. okay, you can visit now because it's a big meeting. but then the south african judge's orders that raise unless you have

to escape, he ran out right? yeah, right, right, the back door. so that's why, but the input, the, the kind to go just off of after the got, i'm to go to receive even the latest that you can come. they the not because they, these are like to the galleries. so this is a, that's the read by the, the issue we should know that in, that's just about but event and then to profit. that's ok. we have more the value for this situation. i look that you cannot, the c panel is use in war. gem increase got nothing human right? guy in general, increase the who conduct operations and everybody's done. i knew that he did better what he called the insurgency. much, you'll kill your 10 terrorist. you kill 2, how many of the main 20 then minus 2 equal to print the why? because some of the i live friends be contemporaries. but in fact, how much lead is all of them are victims. are family who it for this place?

they have mostly they have kids killed, so all of them are also victims that committed the crimes in the same time. so it's time to stop the revenge cycle that to protect the i. t is offering and opportunity develop form in more input just as a patient. how much is it differently though? arrest warrants more requested for their leadership. yeah, we know. yeah, yeah. us and wire the leader and gallagher from us leader and guys. and my name is dave, who was the commander of the cuz i'm a big brigade or to the military. we have for mass. and is maya honey, who's the head of the from as a political bureau? yeah, they've been accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. they've demanded the withdrawal of these allegations. and they say that the i c c prosecutor was quote, equating the victim with the execution or their argument is they have a right to armed resistance. yeah. but okay,

go and the judge. yeah. bring that. go to do that. yes. do you have this argument go to a judge is make the argument, the best thing. it does not charging him to come foot the show or to do with assistance. they charge, then to go to his right. thank you for the 100 civilians and to, to run the hostages goodman kids. this noncombatant, so you are, you are, if you don't fight that, you cannot can civilians. so that's why if they'd be the one that the that's why they shouldn't go to the dentist if then the other way. because it, by the government vision. yeah. also called kareem khan. again, the prosecutor, one of the quote rates anti semites in modern times and he likened him to judges and nazi germany who helped to enable the holocaust. was a pretty heavy accusations. what do you make of that? did you come on? one of the 6 in the motion of the little advice. so he review and the evidence is they have

a few other mid on warning names instead of the was never and then they are not able to able comp. and he was a victim 100 because i there, he came to the go, the vice of these, right, i'm the us, he's not on the music. he's a victim, he's in survival auto cause he say these are perfect valid requirements to request . so come on, that's about another thing that see, there's anybody else want to say got responsibility. what he did, he was there this explain you, you'll believe you're not, you're providing them with the i think the explain the he can do that. and in fact, it is right as they don't like the whole going to the high to see the pressing. goodly if i can stop these that the only medication, if it is right, i think you'd the definitely mitigation. that was the case. but i have to be a genuine investigation. i don't know if there's a who is more afraid of it. you're able to use them or they just investigate the island. what do you think of i am not sure about my job to determine that i can't

get into nothing. yeah. who's brain and figure out what he's afraid of your peers and not be afraid of much he's afraid to come on. he's still getting that. but among some of these are the brands. yeah. what are you familiar with? what is what he talks a tough. he says, look, i'm not getting the rest of in fact, of the ice cream around the position. worry about his bed if you want to prosecute when that happens right. when you a prosecutor, if nothing yahoo, it said a couple needs to be worried about his status, not my boss. usually the advice you say that all the time the but when they talk about you is because the i'm a, the freight and the fact that he was very, a friend and a he does what, right? because they didn't j not getting that to see, but even jail. yes. when you die the you have a big problem that way. and if i yeah with what did about it and is what you talking about the for the last month? if i mean, is there any more than so many, do you think a comforting why you're looking so much about that to see if you don't care about that and see, of course he cares. of course he gets okay, well the white house had some commentary about the icbc as well. uh, they say i see that they have jurisdiction, the conflict,

and the arrest warrant is outrages as we've already discussed. but in late april, prior to these warrants, a group of republican senators issued a threat to the i c. c. and specifically to the prosecute of green cross. that's what he said. he said target is real and we will target you if you move forward. we will move to end all american support for the i c c section your employees and associates and bar. you and your families from the united states. you have been born look in the us, the beach present nixon to effect just it on the beach. it done on pump for the site for all protecting, just double time. yeah. yeah. so is it us tend to go into effect into measurement just is that what they are doing, that's gonna leave the world doing this like this are usually unfairly targeted and you don't have the jurisdiction, but the incentive can not national senate charging i back in the international

court for doing something with us with the profit, because the jurisdiction is provided by palestine. nobody's right. under the case they've come on. us is building a port in these in gas app because there is no more than a system coming from a rise. come a how that goes a good night. the problem i'd say, of course, is that go to crime hook. i have friends, international law professors from these right? everyone recognize it. you can not testify. the stop in the my, the, i see the what, the food to gas, that it, this obviously the a crime, starving is a crime. it's a crime coming to against armenians. is it kind of coming to always is a crime. so they have to ignore the crimes. i'm pretending that probably is not the those who meet the crime, the front of the person who does that is a big mistake. the us gives billions of dollars to israel. we have from, we have enabled israel in every way imaginable, money weapons, a shielding them in for from accountability at the un. uh, is there

a moment with the us will be deemed complicit? not just in the court, a public opinion, but in an international legal binding. whether legally yes, if, if they so easily, the case is confirmed man, and these are crime committed to providing, waiting for the contributions of this crime could be a crime. but yeah, that could be a crime. so that's would be something for then you're a veteran and an expert. how likely is it, do you think that the us, i think the in cases the bind is, know, should be respected, not just by judges. i'm going to hear those not going to be primarily respected by lead that's need. it's got an offset, is okay to stop too many young people always okay. how much go on came to evaluate . now, we have to stand for the victims, evaluated victims biased him victims used to have done for the, for the killers. you have a problem. that's why the us ministers are making revolts because they don't, they,

they don't see the russian with this. how do you kind of drop crimes, how the us authorities cause that back with you? but i think it didn't all be as cons. is it time sort of think, you know, there are people who believe that obvious crimes should be investigated by the i c . c, just not obvious crimes in every country. uh, earlier this week the prosecutor con, did an interview with cnn's christiane and for yeah, and he stated that in a named senior leader told him that the ice and see was actually quote built for africa and for thirds like clinton. israel also urged quote, nations of the civilized world to oppose the icy seas request for arrest warrants. what do you make of statements like the, the idea that there's a dichotomy between the civilized world and the global cell? the idea of the agencies for those people over there, not for us. and how that squares with the fact that this is the 1st time that

a close ally western power is being indicted. whereas there's always for everyone. no, no one is of the low on the fact that stuff after the guy demanding also the case before the j showing. okay. the lawyer you nothing to has of us, the stuff i for god bless ceiling and the countries in the files come to mind. rule because low either way to put the, the low is the weather particularly weekend. you have the weapon, you're gonna need to know. you need to know when you're on the web once, and that's why it's so important to confirm. there's always important, i like it. the judges are from been in romania or good friends is not so small. so yes, i say it's a good experiment. is it them formation? and these are good on moment. not just 45 of them, but the students for the was luis berto a couple. thank you so much for joining me on upfront. thank you. the norway, ireland,

in spain will formerly recognize an independent palestinian state on may 28th. the coordinated announcement comes amid international outrage of the mounting dental and the humanitarian crisis. and guys of israel continues, it's a saw these countries hope others will follow in order to revive piece talks. but formal recognition of a palestinian state has been unattainable for decades. so will this move actually make a difference? here to speak with us about the matter is marine or benny. he is co editor of jen aliya and previously senior middle east analyst and special adviser on israel palestine with the international crisis group mine the to see you up on been to do more than 140 countries already recognize a palestinian stain. that includes a few european countries, of course, but no major western powers, ireland, spain, and norway have long advocated for palestinian state. so what is different now?

what's the significance of this move from these countries at this moment? and i think it's significant in several respects. it's of course, politically symbolic and i think it's certainly politically important in the context of been consistent is really position opposing genuine independence and genuine palestinian sovereignty over the occupied territories. but i think it's also significant in the sense that it's really too little too late on these 3 countries. in addition to sweden, which recognized posting in the state of a few years ago, represent 4 out of 30 plus members of the european union and european economic area. they've said they've taken this move in order to promote the 2 state of uh, settlement. now the time to have done that would have been is either in the

late 19 eighties when the palestinians 1st proclaimed state goods or at the very latest. during the 1990s, when israel's relentless settlements expansion under the oslo agreement, it's made clear that unless is rarely, expansion isn't, was resisted through political impractical measures. there could be no 2 states settlement having waited until 2024 to do this again. is in my view too little too late, particularly. talk about the, about the little part 1st i get into late part right there in the eighty's and ninety's, who would've been a much more impactful choice. but when you say it's too little, isn't, is it to inductive to say that it's now just a symbolic measure, or is there an actual practical value to this recognition? well, i do think there is practical value, but what i meant by to little is if you know these western states,

and not only those who have now recognized tossing statewood, but also all the others who claimed to be in support of the 2 states settlement. if they genuinely believed that to be the case, then there should be all kinds of practical measures they should take. for example, banning settlement products on to the european market, which is the main factor in making is rarely settlements to legal is really settlements a viable economic proposition. you can have a to state settlement without ending the occupation. and unless they take forceful, practical measures to end the occupation then of steps such as we've seen yesterday will be made to appear to be symbolic level. and that's what i mean by it being too little. when we think about the 2 state solution, uh, as you pointed out, these 3 countries see this as a step on the way to that long standing,

i'll say at least express goal, and i'm not always convinced that it's a real commitment as much as it is and articulated the gold. 1 many countries in the it, many cards around the world and united states have expressed that same goal to state solution, but they say it can be achieved through other means it can't be done. now. they need to be direct negotiations between israel and palestine. in order for that to happen. uh, the concern many people have myself included is we've been saying this for decades now, the oslo accords with the opportunity to get there. as you pointed out, all these different chords throughout time, whether it's a clinton accords, whatever it is, we keep trying to get there. there haven't been direct negotiations for 15 years between the 2 countries. so is this now the time for a new approach, you mean is the approach at least an alternative, an alternative to just taking the ball down the field every year? thing to state solution with no negotiation. that, that certainly appears to be the case,

especially when one party to the solution has the state of israel has demonstrated itself to be a new, rational genocidal apartheid state that has reached the point where it can no longer distinguish between from the full that thinks every political challenge can be resolved with overwhelming force and violence, but i would just like to say in response to your earlier correct interpretation of, of those who on the one hand claim to be in favor of a 2 state settlement and at the same time, say it can only be achieved through by lateral there's really posted in negotiations, but they're essentially saying is that a palestinian state and the unalienable rights of the past and in people to self determination can only be implemented on the basis of his really approval. in other words, the negotiations are intended to give israel the right to veto,

over the establishment of a policy needed state over the form of the past and in states and over the substance of such a state. and to anyone who has been observing this issue over the past decades, it's clear as day light that is real simply has no intention to end the occupation . so when, on the one hand you give this unconditional support to isabel by making its on by making pulse and he writes, dependent on is really concerned then statements in support of 2 states. settlement are really just performative and not more than smoke and mirrors . after the announcements, the u. s. again reiterated that it does not support unilateral recognition of a palestinian state and no surprise there a while. then you in general, assembly over womanly supports the palestinian state. the us unilaterally blocked a bid for, for you in membership earlier this year. this is all of this meaningless. this

entire push for a palestinian state recognition is not meaningless. if the u. s. and other major powers won't change their longstanding policy. i wouldn't go so far as to characterize it as meaningless. again, i think it's politically significant in the sense that it demonstrates once again how thoroughly out of touch the united states is with the will of the international community. we often think of, of, of the west as providing leadership to the international community in the united states in particular performing battle. i think what this crisis has demonstrated does that we're really dealing with 2 separate entities with an ever growing child in between the, the west leg by the united states on the one hand. and the international community representing the will of the vast majority of governments and states around the world on the other hand. and what the us is really saying is it doesn't want

palestinian statehood unless and until is real, agrees to it. and in addition to us will exercise no pressure on israel to consent . how does israel's outrage play into this? i mean, after the recognition of these 3 european states was announced, nothing. yahoo said that this was a move that rewards terrorism. other members of israel's hard line government, even people who don't like netanyahu, echo the sentiments historically, those kinds of statements, those types of claims have helped to mobilize support for israel in the global community. are we still in a moment where that's possible or has that train left the station? i think that train is left the station. i should, that i almost feel sympathy for these are, is real leaders in terms of the outrage that they have expressed. their problem is that they have enjoyed total impunity for so long on any issue relating to the palestinians. they're used to getting their way and being coddled by the

west in the united states, in particular on everything over the decades. that to them even the slightest challenge to their unilateralism and dealing with the palestinians is seen as an affront against the entire state and its very existence. and i think that explains why, as the, as, as you noted, even is really leaders who are most opposed to the attorney who is a leader on stand shoulder to shoulder with them on this issue. just as a do with respect to the international court of justice. the international criminal court and really any other initiative on that suggests that there's going to be any challenge to israel's ability to deal with the palestinians on the use a lateral basis with western support with total impunity. right. and remind me, thank you so much for joining me on upfront. thank you very much for having me. right. everybody that is our show upfront. we'll be back next to the

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moody is seeking to increase has majority of low turn out and economic concepts. and t cost is routing, p j, p. follow india is general election analysis era. the, the, [000:00:00;00] the hello, i'm sorry i minimize the welcome to the news, our life from dough coming up in the next 60 minutes. israel's minute tree pushes further into central and western rasa. most hospitals in gauze is southern city of valley functioning. how does that mean a groups of raising the alarm about the deteriorating situation in gauze,