the elders are exposed the events leading to the will and its consequences, which i still felt today is where i couldn't really all be in this was because that is such as the the stuff is live the war in june on outages era. the amc has controlled politics in south africa for 3 decades, but not anymore. the african national congress has lost its majority for the 1st time since taking power. so what's behind the civic? and how will that shape politics in the country? this is inside story, the hello welcome to the program on tell mccray, it's a vote that's and, and susie g is a v i n c's dominance and south african politics. but it has dealt a blow to the african national congress angry and what they consider to be it's

finally, it's a deal with a dot economy and poverty. now the policy will have to engage in tools with rival this to form a coalition government. so what concessions might make and what does a weekend and say mean to politics and the country we were told to, i guess i'm just in mind that this, this report by this and getting foot historic, plunging support for the party empower for 30 years. the governing african national congress or amc had won a majority in every election since the end of apartheid. that is outs. but on wednesday it got about 40 percent of his votes in general elections. a fall of roughly 17 percent on 2019. with unemployment high and poverty, widespread, many voters feel does illusion. it's a lesson plane. see that the good 40 percent? that'd be much speed up. does the 60 men do? said we deliver to the people who are the 2nd amc set that was partly due to the

former president jacobs, whom i resigned in 2018 following a series of corruption scandals back in south africa and politics. with his newly founded m k party, he pulled support away from the a and c. his party came 3rd nationally with 15 percent of the votes, and one in the cause of the not tell provence. ok, the den formerly and amc strong cold need a change to start from somewhere. and i'm glad being a part of tease it in bringing about the changing thing. you know what, the title of what this is we're trying to take a new direction and hopefully this new direction can change. another break away party economic freedom fighters help split the vote along with the democratic alliance movement coming. second, the amc will now have to form a coalition government to stay in power. it's also been undermined by rising crime rates, corruption scandals and constant power blackouts. the n c used to be the put it to

kind of applied to that is been the for the, for the black majority to only to find out that did that not the with column and due to elected president in the next 14 days. it's in certain weather, single rama pulls that can keep the top job. we want to engage with the agency of filling out my posts. i would have a discussion with the answer. but the answer is what i'm a pleasant. how's that possible? from a liberation movement under nelson mandela, c a n c came to power with promises of prosperity for all and greater equality promises many south south we can say it's failed to deliver and they can only hope a coalition might do better if to some getting fluid i'll just do the color spring. and now guess now from johannesburg is more like him a lot say she's the research at the institute,

the pen africans thoughts and conversation from cape town, john hoff, my who hits the policy and analysis program at the institute for justice and reconciliation. and also from johannesburg. monthly my comm yet, who is editor in chief of the city pris newspaper. thanks very much for joining us here on inside story and what is a fascinating time. and so that for can politics of the 1st of all, monthly before we get to the coalition negotiations, i just want to talk a little bit about the issues that the i n c has had through the selection. what do you put the massive drop in support down to it is as you say, a massive muscle companies like because that kinds of stuff gets out in front of them. i think the main things are basically that left off delivery to start. if it comes to ordinary people, you have headboard test shortages and the issue of electricity is our reference.

that is massive. it's been an international story, been backed up left with what we call, you know, sitting quite x needs power outages and is and basic things at the local level, m at the roads and this unemployment, this method of poverty. and the thing is people have not seen a change in any improvement and in liberty by this government. there was hope at once. but jacobs who am i that it's ended that settled on my post. i will begin to improve service delivery. that's kind of that paper being and then an improvement in the project gives corruption, but all of that has not happened. and that's, i think, are the major reasons why the agency has to be a huge drop. and i think also just let the city police meet and the mt off the and them, so we'll get that at some point to mt off. the assume the pa g. yes,

m has had a huge impact across those primarily agency voters who moved over to that party looking for some kind of oh yeah. and a little i could do you agree with that assessment, that this is catastrophic for the i n c, and it's basically been down to the inability to deliver a magic potter, which is that i think this internally is that is part of it. i don't think that it's a true kind of transition to see that's of the end. she has an autism, but anything like i do think that perhaps the problem may be that the easily clearly show a piece of transformation to clean. so piece of, i hope, the more, you know, excited and then pick the kind of issues in south africa. i mean quite a number of opposition parties including even smaller position parties that have emerged in this election. some of the key issues that they originally the come on right amongst these, all these, these are opposition parties that even if the m k a t, and as, as usual, such as things that could lead to question, you know, i think that on the 29th of,

of, of may when, who was using the, the eviction. there was an entire community in south africa coast. he's got most of the way to commit to refuse to participate in fully the voting process. and that i can then towards that the reason for the protest was that we have had a needs training since 1996 that has not been resolved. so i think one of the things that is very interesting about this, you mentioned that even spoken about, you know, he's been requiring into the emergency about the lack of the, you know, the control piece of transformation. and particularly as it relates to the lend question. but the ends, the government has over the last that he has not been able to, to, to resolve, but it over to occur even which ones the i followed today that the issue of the in king. but i mean, i think i understand the in k, which is what the m k and the emergence of the if it's an all other parties that had previously been out of, you know, the kind of trouble did the in see these to speak about the intent of the failure of internal um, the results of the internal conflict within the agency. i think the amc has proven itself to be an organization that is incapable. well,

i'm really rather to deal with content on a contract actions. i mean tell them conflict in a minute. that maintains cohesion and documentations, i'm district the connection, different type things mean 10 out of the in the n. c, the failure to resolve those 10 on contract issues. i've alternate to disappoint of the pots. you can the last 2 years we have seen, i saw patsy speaking out of the in see, and i think that something was reflected on your end to. yeah. and i want to go to, you know, i mean, is that how you see it as well, that it's basically an inability for the agency to have really made any real progress with so many issues in south africa that has seen the drop in popularity. no, i would agree with my colleagues, i think looking in the most of the auction where i would like to say that the agencies really become the victim eucharist, particularly over the past decade to the hosp to as a bulky divided a party that was obsessed with itself as the experience of its constituency,

and as a result of a forward to the party that really lacked focus. and the attention of it is this theory and a search when one has seen satisfaction as the emerging over the years. in the 1st decade in the hall is obviously along the lines of ideology in the austic age and a half increasing the lives of personality and patronage. and that has had a cost for society at large. yeah, mostly for people who are outside of south africa and watching this, can you just give us a sense of what it is actually like the written the moment. i mean, it really is on childhood. both is full of the country. is there a feeling of uncertainty about what is going to happen next? what if you have a governing part to you that has been in power for 30 years? i'm like, that's all the that the people sort of guy have ever had in the system to that the aids you were when the elections. and now you have a sense,

i'm going to pace use down from 57 percent to 40 percent. and now to people in this country do not know what the save us been next government is going to be. so there's a lot of time such events that there's a lot of speculation. obviously business wants to know how the new coalition government will look like. and an ordinary people actually want to know what it is, but to kind of like what the future looks like for that for the next 5 years. but you know, but that, but there's also another. and that means that people actually seeing democracy, it works. then actually you do need to have the system t off a one part to you that is only going to govern the country that actually kind of make the back of the parents. it would be better for you forward that over the next part is that the easy way even though it just do the majority, part of would be afraid of losing power indigent. that would be more responsive to

the demise of the people. and so there is a sense of optimism as well as a sense of uncertainty. yeah. like what do you agree with that sentiment that you know that this could actually be a good thing for south africa that there's not just one posse in total control? i mean i, i repeat to god, i try that. i do agree. i said to me 2 or 3, which one is that, um, the sentiment of the ground is that, you know, this is democracy at work. i think, you know, we, we shouldn't, by no, as you know, you know, that's the, is um some, some disagreements with the outcome. the m. k party in other parts. some of the parties have challenged the outcome of the election. and if you can, said called, for a recount to the recounting and all of the se, an entire meet election, i think of any type of about voting processes. and of course, of the, of those, you know, concepts and so on and so forth. the is that, i mean, i do think that overall the is that they don't that the is something something, some optimism about you know, what this means for democracy in the democratic project in south africa. i think most of each quarter to that, you know,

for the last 2 years. so the guys will actually be a, has i had as much, we had a told me that the pots, according to consistent way to go the way of the patrol touches the n. c has been the governing party. it has what has maintained a majority. i mean, i do think that's warranty as well. that is a sense of anxiety because in the last few years, and particularly since twitter 2016 gluco kaufman collection, you will remember that until difficult. we have 2 types of connection. we've got the genetic connection, where would you mix the national government and the probably show governments that's what we had this we at or on the 29th. but we also have another process that happens usually 2 years before that. and that's the, that low cost of the connection, and that's where we elect, municipal government or government. they will come diesel. and what we have seen since 2016 is out of the case being the emotions of coordination. governments like local government level and the see to of, to in the count them problems which is the economy. can they have central this opportunity call to me that apple 3 made for pointing to administer party to be

that category 8 minus the probably just very point us to buddy to, to the top resources. and in the 2016 it looks like the amc last auto buy for one of those and even where it maintains the contains and of them and the job and then see that one is kind of progress through a government industry trophy, coordinating it lost the city of to his but it's an off the see to of talk it across other metropolis administrators in the country. and what happened after that was that we had quite a lot of stable equations. we had a lot of stuff bleaching. all of these, quite as you can see for the future if we're leaving those americans stuff to do, to which effect of service to anybody and other things, but potentially, which affected the ability of institution democratic institutions. the in the capacity that steve create a general sense of concern for quite a number of people about, you know, what if i feel like the board, what are the disability pages? i don't know. people are wondering that if we have had, you know, why didn't governments in the country and particularly at mid 4, they're both that have been so i'm stable and, and brought about so much writing stuff. and i'm still trying to,

why doesn't look like if you were to then take that and transpose it into a be got me those to the national liberation. i'm pretty sure i've got to make yet that anxiety as well. yeah, well the i n c secretary general has just spoken on that point and he said as a nice and we will stand together against those with tourism violence and instability. yeah, and is there a real chance that violence could actually break out in the wake of these results? and i think it does. it is highly unlikely to, to look at the way in which holler talk. cuz he says has being called for the day just over the past 50 years. i think there, there is much in it for us to do to keep the confidence that um that the, that violence or instability is not really a option. i think what we may see is some sort of very intense conversation over the over the next couple of weeks to, to ensure that a government or some sort is, is being formed. but i do not think the prospect of,

of instability at this point is that strong. having said that, i, it also says project that we work on at the institute for justice and reconciliation is the effort of enrollment to which is the continental survey that looked at the issues of democracy and trusting institutions that cetera, etc. but we have seen, over the past decade in the off also has been that there has been a decline in trust in taking the call to institutions. you know, with the way indeed which these institutions mediate the conflict within society. and i think what we will see, you know, in the next couple of weeks, is how strong these institutions are and the extent to which they can cope with districts as being placed on your end date. i want to move on now to what the coalition could actually look like. uh,

mostly what options does the amc realistically have here? who will be the 1st picked to be a coalition partner with? well yeah, that is a really difficult, wonderful. the easy at this particular point is about 40 percent. and if i had been slow, such as 50, let's say for the 728 of some homes were kind of at the moment i'm supposed to say they would have actually been able to come to give us some smaller part to use that they could dominate now they need bigger parties added to next for the next 2 to 3 big parties. is the democrats that nice, which is, i don't, i do a lot the key. not in sync with the agency. yeah. that's more liberal my. yeah. and then you have the, the as do the apache, which is basically form by gives them all the individuals that are my goals and everything that they have purchased as far as the ac does not stand for. they are empty constitution, the individual disability and such as if i'm not used to attend,

but that basically the opposed to most of the fundamentals of the foundations are subject to the next 94 units. i've just had went into and many a video which basically told me that the ac, what am i domestically? that is much more alignment. but the e s. s has tended to be more just disruptive. all governments and electrical work into that area on that is something with disabilities that uh, that it weighed at coalitions and that basically that a lot of instability. and if it has been a lot of that, because they know how to use power to exit and transitions from the majority parts, it was just the easy. so if an easy way to go into publish a little bit here at the national level, you can imagine the kinds of co off of demands that they would make. and this is that that would make the easy was the ac, was not going to be the interest,

very conscious off invest uh, sentiment and market sentiment, etc, etc. like it, do you think that the i n c 0 rim, oppose a could actually ever work with a fs and jacobs? i'm such any, i mean the n c already isn't equation with the if it, by example, in the city of equality. he's a metropolitan minus the probably too with a or cumberland financial they purchased, located the 5th and the amc, our king and equation day. and he said superset suing us to tell you this and you have to have this big um, so i do think, and i think maybe this is important. i need to say this. first of all i, i just give you a bit of a brief, a brief explanation of this, right. but yeah, it's what's called it in, in printing in 2015. and it consists of the for the, which is the 1st emissions. i cannot get you on the front of it yet in 2014. now that your f was established by the for monday, the off, the amc usually to less money and all the details of the if you keep fluctuate for

now we must understand that when the f was found, it last funded on a principle of let me call 7, kind of know, p us, those 7 kind of a p less at a directory. good you to should of conference resolutions of the 24th national congress of the in. so you think, and it also company on the, you know, to be the company of the city don't charge. i know visa amc foundational foundation of the tree chevy. the empty party. unfortunately, i mean, i do agree with the ones that the awesome personality issues but, and sofa is in the concrete times. and if i do much come stand point to and politically standpoint, no. because the mt project, in fact, does not have any policies, and they do have a manifesto what they call it people's money people. but it's very, very tricky. okay, just a. the other point though is what you're talking about personality issues between the 2. because i mean, they openly despise each other. i mean, could you give a young see it coalition working with zoom, a and rim, oppose a, as the leaders of both of those parties with what i think the,

the k is already expressed itself on, on that issue. saying that it will not enter into a conversation with the a z, with a zoo, uh sorry with from apologize praise of this, of all the agency. and i also think this, this kind of causation. um, is the slide see all the different options. if one looks at the okay, both across the country, one does see that a bar 95 percent of the state golf came from 3 provinces, which doesn't really make it a party that speaks to to the entire last weekend. and we wanted to sink to the findings of in goose a solution for the country in the wake of this very cross shifting election. this may not be, i think from the strategic point of view for the african congress is based

apartment to, to unify the country also in the wake of a very this devices election campaign. okay. mostly what's, uh, what, well, what are the issues? i mean, what, what's going to be on the negotiating type of, what's the, and so you're going to have to give up a m, a z goes into coalition with that democratic alliance. it is going, some of the democrats of our lives has already put them on the, on the table. the issue of this now has insurance of ac vans through is, is similar to the image. the estimate in the united kingdom and the energy event of empowerment and then under to sign for the president and the on the days of the lots of ministration. and there's an education build up at that democratic airlines . this is rejected of ac has to push forward, but i think they will also be having a lot of demands around. and the difference is i think around our position on the

understanding is an issue. and, and i think that's the plain deluxe and victim purpose advise is very much in favor of israel and does not commit to the president of causing the amc. it's very much committed to that it started to be a big issue because, but a government will have to do with this and on that. and i think it would be an issue that that would definitely come up. yeah. what that is, if it's going to be economy video that has very strong left me the problem. yes, this is a f, as i mentioned, and yeah, on the face of devon and young did find out that stuff. and m a coalition with the mt. pepsi is a, is a fantasy that will never happen in the me who the next next will not be on that as i'm just not going to work. of like, i guess just moving to the issues. and there are many that size south africans at this point in time. what does the majority of south africans actually want from the

government right now and, and what combination of coalition is actually best to deal with those issues? i mean, i think fundamentally the kids were 4 to 4 days depending on how many kids to be taught. if you don't really been a bit tough to pick a lot, it's a protest of living so that the kids also beautiful to on demand question. like i said, with communities like he's got his work and making a protest of, you know, disengagement with the whole to process. so if you're around, you know, the next question would create a very prominent team. does he mention? even if they've not being, you know, really outlined and engaged in their fullness. if you're around treated just the cost of living this time, that's something to be bought for. young people is other pick as well. you should the, i mean probably be the issue. i mean, clearly does the theory 2 people would get you would know that the south african uh, i will also show an employment very extensive about that. just over 32 percent. but use unemployment spends a over 60 percent to the highest in the world. and young people constituted 40 tool point 5 percent of the full testing this eviction. and that's

a very huge number of people. and they, you know, one of the things they keep the, all that all the time is that you, this issue of unemployment issues improvement. you should have covered to instructor on any qualities. i do think that those are the key issues and i think, you know, the, the default of have, we're good when we, you know, i think we're looking at the, the, the, the results we don't she, at what point i've already asked the, the majority to follow up with that clearly what they're sitting typically is that they don't believe that the mc can go at this. i know that the piece at the mc on it's just not capable of resulting these issues, but it should be part of a big got the, the end of the table should be the benefit. and for more people on the table, some of whom might have some solution to some of these questions. and some of which might most definitely look at in c comes in and the other parties do come in. but i just think let me just quickly say, i think that i don't agree with lindsey, but in m k a and see what they think is see if you like it. and it's never going to happen because it correctly, it was the quarter to kind of to rise a lot of these,

these, these conflicts between the amc and the m. k is last thing you should of personalities . and i think what people are out of the 2 adults can always be negotiated. that's what we have for that. oh, okay. yeah. and just going back to the end, the call as a poverty and unemployment that is facing sort of africans at this point in time. how do you think is best as part of that coalition? who is best? who, who is best going to serve the people of south africa and dealing with those issues of the thing baby just to go back to your, your question was about the issues that kind of it's on the africans, particularly vote as we just completed a nationally related to survey in about 2 weeks before the elections and we've off vote is just this question which, which issues what the pros you about the 3 point in to be issues that came up was unemployment based on the highest of all 71 percent of our our respondents followed by the question of electricity provision, which is

a major issue inside pick up because it also impacts on the price of employment and then certainly the question of the corruption. yeah. and then there are many other issues, but the main issues that say the livelihoods of also that frequency and their ability to have it can all make agency back to the question on who would be best to best position. i think it would be those policies that will be able to bring the vote along with them in a coordination because of the will be trade offs on the little side. the only trade offs that the ac we'll estimate. but i think the for just thing comes off of the one option, the most interest co, russian, who is a democratic airlines. it will also have to make, make tradeoffs with a, with this particular constituency and, and also negotiate these. and there is a possibility also for the using bugs because the wisdom teeth province,

which with which the idea is quite strong, has rejected the ac one side of the over the past 2 decades. unfortunately, we will have to leave it there, but we really do look forward to seeing what, how, how exactly how this is going to play out over the next a couple of weeks, like a young, lonely, thanks so much for joining us here on inside story. and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting website that's owns, is there a dot com. and so for the discussion, go to well facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on x i'll handle is as i, j inside story for me, tell them to cry. and the whole team here, bye for now the, a lot of the stories that we cover all highly complex. so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can to as many people as possible no matter

how much they know about a given chrisy. so issue the smell of that is all the power as i was just a real correspondence. that's what we strive to do. i want people to look closer at the ugly side of this. i point by camera where others prefer not to write about what it means to be american and about the ordinary people who get caught up in the us. worse filmmaker around tech, and also via turn when on the power of political lot. what are the stories we tell sales about also? and how do we base our past to change our future studio be unscripted, talk to on? i would use the euro. the latest news as it breaks the heart fidelity is a very critical point right now. we're not far from completely shutting down all this further. this with detail coverage houses are being forced down. they live with the constant fear that more is where it is. hawks are never far behind from

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north highland, doha, these, the top stories on out is there more than 1000000 people has been forced to leave rafa in the south of the gaza strip. that's according to the u. n. as well, has been preparing to expand this defensive in the southern city that it designated a safe saying dark capitalism has more from dell by law. people have been again, forced to intentionally being displaced from roof. i think initially too, of policies area. way they have been living in a very trusted human at terry and could be seen in a very tiny strip of land cooled on milwaukee, which is completely on suitable for human habitation by the vast majority of families have been also hitting to dairies. by the way we are right now and.