time in jail was very interesting, but not in the eyes of his government. this has been our home for so many years. in the final part of the series, we followed the story of a british age worker as he flees from it live with his family. after being arrested by a powerful melisha, one of the toughest times when they tortured me. state list in syria on now to 0. is it need conflicts possible, or 4 or 5 stickler powers have increased spending on the scale not seen in decades? on going was a set to be the reason. so has to new to the determines files. that story the hello and welcome to the program. i'm the bulk of a report by the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons. it shows

spending on a topic this has ballooned nearly a $100000000000.00 has been spent by the world's 9 nuclear nations in a single year. you could, will have stalled piles of reduce since the peak of the cold war boss, new soaring expenditure banks. the question is, why all these countries waiting to spend such incredible sums of money on atomic weapons and how they're making the world any safe and rushes threats to possibly use nuclear weapons? and ukraine just postering all of a driving of renewed but very real need for rivals to build up the new cost. those will get to those questions in a moment. but 1st the support by michael apple nuclear weapons mankind's most destructive invention, ever conceived. and then mass produced since the cold war. competing superpowers have subscribed to a nuclear doctrine. that stock piling these weapons provides protection through

each side being deterred from using them to avoid the risk of mutually assured destruction. and you report from the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons o 510 shows that there are 9 nuclear on states in the world combined. they spend more than $90000000000.00 on the nuclear arsenals last year. the us is by follow the front runner spending more than 50000000000. it's followed by china that nearly 12000000000 and russia with a little over 8000000000 on the united nations secretary general says the world has been extraordinarily lucky so far, not to have seen global geo political tensions erupt into catastrophe de humanities just wouldn't be as understanding when use calculation away from nuclear at any lation, the world's new k all nations. last year, i spent a staggering $2898.00 per 2nd. or

$250000000.00 a day on both maintaining the existing austin ols and expanding this. i can all use this money can and must be better spent. the u. n's world food program says global 100 can be eradicated if these countries spend $40000000000.00 per year on assistance until 2051 year of nuclear weapons funding could also help cover nearly 30 percent of what's needed to mitigate and adapt to climate change with conflicts intensifying the will, the p is increasingly unstable. upping the risk of tactical will so called saffel field and nuclear weapons being used. a report by the stockholm international piece research institute says russia has 5 and a half 1000 warheads. if we look at coolant activities, literally since the 1st day of the invasion of ukraine,

he has been making nuclear threats. he has been talking about the importance of russia's nuclear arsenal. it's nearly 7 years since a $122.00 nations of the world voted in favor of the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons celebrations at the time. but the world is no closer to eliminating nuclear weapons. and the figure shows the opposite is happening. and the nuclear arms business is booming. mike level held his era for inside stores. all right, let's bring in a gas in vienna. nicolai's talk of who is a senior fellow at the vienna center for disarmament and non proliferation and took policy many arms control negotiations. gary say more joins us from boston. he's of politics, professor brundis university and a full. i'm a senior official in the us national security council responsible for non proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and in brussels. victor go,

who is the vice president of the center for china and globalization, a leading chinese thing. time is also a full met. diplomats welcome to all 3 of you. go. i wonder if i can start by asking you this. according to this latest report is of the 9. well, put new club um nations are apparently spending more on euclid homes. why is that happening? so i agree with the report. all of the countries that have nuclear weapons believe they are essential, vital for their national security. so those countries that have nuclear weapons or spending money in order to maintain and modernize, and in some cases, expand their nuclear forces. and i would expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future. nicolai's, this a try and you see happening? oh is yes, i would say that very few countries actually now increase the number of nuclear

weapons but they were while he's modernizing especially is did you re reviews like b file submarines and bars? and i think more countries might actually join the trim door, increasing the numbers as well, but that's going to be in the future. uh, nickel, our start review for a 2nd because one argument is that all of this is primarily because the us is decided to spend much more. busy on its military defense budget of the back of the war and ukraine, turbulence in the middle east. some concerns about china is admissions that in the region, is the us budget to blame for the turbo charging of this new clarice around the world. i would say that there are 2 main reasons why do namespace has been the more reason why is that? generally speaking is more expensive than the space usage of the nature of the comic and political system. so generally less space spends more money to do the

same things that other countries can do cheaper. a service number was number 2. uh oh, do we are to know, are we going to get this better? so we get your car sold, a bunch of strategic or the last days now have is the legacy arsenal of a small thing here to do from nicole more days is just getting very old. so almost all systems actually do need replacement. and that's really the main reason for spending more money all the united states use now and just oh, oh, oh oh, i'm just beginning actually. oh oh, the cycles and a wholesale release minutes in the is that's why i'm spending more makes the example starting the same cycle for like 20 years ago. okay. uh, so let's go to fix the pick to according to uh, i'm according to, to nikolai,

the us is overly just started. china, we know, is judged to be the 2nd largest spend when it comes to it's nuclear hospital with a bunch of $11900000000.00 that is well below the $51000000000.00 spent by the united states. however, it is enough to cause concern. victor, in the region, why does china want more nuclear weapons? so 1st of all, i seem to mankind is at the very critical of costs on a meeting. i don't want all piece and there are countries which are as it teaching for more or expansion into all the reduce, i'll try to of, sorry, it's a subjugate all the countries to install minutes. now, as far as china is concerned, china's military expenditures a whole is only a fractional, that of the united states and canada. never. they said, how many new plant, what has it, has it made it very clear?

china will have enough nuclear warheads to get to be but which was it? whichever country which stands to launch a new career tact. just trying to back beings thomas knew what buttons is purely 450 purposes. china would never use nuclear weapons against the non nuclear weapon states, and china will never use nuclear weapons against, oops, of countries which do not use nuclear weapons. i hope all the trenches, the united states. and otherwise, we'll do the same as china, declaring that they will not be the 1st to use nuclear weapons because no cause cannot be used was you use while nuclear bomb. it will never stop, it will continue on to mankind will be wiped out. so this is a critical moment we all that's focused on the things that really matter. that is one of the stuff happens to the nuclear awesome mankind as a whole, need to come up with a commitment that no country should be allowed to use nuclear weapons. do start off with, so we'll talk about the hopes of

a commitment to making sure that happens. victor a little bit later on, but some tell me about to you, gary. we've had a lot particularly, and russia invoking is new to the hospital as a means of warning western states not to intervene in the conflict in ukraine. even conducting simulated exercises, of the use of time to go nuclear weapons the on the border of a, the zones of the world where that is likely to be a possible. you cannot incident, it appears that it's likely to be an eastern new crate. of all, i think when the war was going very badly for russia and russian officials and experts were threatening to possibly use nuclear weapons, that threat was credible enough so that the us and other western countries were very cautious in providing weapons to ukraine. because they were afraid it would

trigger a desperate russian reaction use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield in ukraine. i think since the war has settled into a stalemate, or even a slight advantage for russia, those nuclear threats are less credible and the western countries have gradually, cautiously provided ukraine with longer range weapons were capable weapons and permission to use them on russian territory. so for now, i think the threat of nuclear use in the ukraine war is relatively low. but i do agree that if the war continues, as it looks like it will for years, and if my war begins to turn against russia, if the ukrainians begin to succeed on the battlefield, i, i, i think there's a greater risk the rusher will feel that has to resort to nuclear use in order to

avoid losing a war. nikolai, at the time of recording vladimir putin is visiting those career. he's the, in the on young. what does the increase spending on euclid weapons mean full countries with fledging fledgling nuclear programs like and your career or oh, well i don't think that there is a, there is relationship between actually russia in north korean. oh, no problem right now. and oh, let me actually uh see that they don't worry degrees. oh with gary to begin with, i really do not see any problem bill getting across invite to use nuclear weapons. it gives you graded. so uh boss i think is quite possible. uh, to the west of assistance, the pre invite, actually regional level. it's turning design, so we're all on the front lines use, in that case, actually russia mines trying to escalate against me too. oh

oh no, that gives you great uh wheels i need to understand all, all the very political, let them 1st and foremost those. so the idea here. oh, use no use no way where i was. oh, what does the white crazy believe so the other side changes. pause here. so is also the i will say, oh, that sounds like the dresser might actually try. uh oh, i think the probability is actually still qualify in the next. you rising is need to get some more involved in your brain. oh, oh, but oh, once again, i don't really see any threat warranty use on the guest brain, but i do see a possible threats. oh, oh, see the worst case you want to use the just you were just because when you get into

an escalation dynamic, it's very easy to lose control of it. so what so the client has just clearly pointed out is that maybe they may not be the real desire to actually use these weapons on the battlefield. but never the less the presence in austin was around the world is still being used as a degree of political left, which of course, during the cold war that was the principal of mutually assured destruction. m a d appropriately named mad a web i. the events of a new club will both be a tucker, i'm the defender would be single changes, slate annihilated. do you think that principal of the parents still exist today? that to 1st of all, from the very beginning of the same criminal law, all russia has declared to the world that on the one hand, it is using conventional level for the battle in ukraine. on the other hand, it is holding very far in this position, nuclear weapons. i personally don't think russia allows to use the weapons inc.

santa of ukraine. russia wants to, frankly, to use nuclear weapons only against those countries, especially maykel, member of states, which may take actions more and more in crunching all the shows, sovereignty and territorial integrity. to such an extent that russia will feel compelled to use nuclear weapons against the this is exactly why russia, the more recent card sailed. they have a demo false is included and include a summary to cuba and would be very short distance from the florida coast. but russian fleet, engaged in firing exercise very close to the united states about 40 miles from the florida coast. this means that russia 0 is about using the weapon to the car, the united states, and they told member of states so that they know that the there was a violation of cross over the war eating dual credit part is unbelief. but they

will never states allow the, a ukrainian, maybe as a result has to scramble, lost the f. 165. the bodies from the at fault in the maple members states, then russia most likely will use nuclear weapons technical, all strategic against a. and this will really be to, to a very dangerous situation, all complete loss of the situation because as we just now discussed, no use of nuclear weapon should happen because use, why don't you fire a nuclear weapon, a bar, for example. then people keep firing a new grip homes, i guess each of the, even these people are killed instantly. politics, nuclear exposure and the resulting nuclear winter will. why passed out? that's why i appeal on russia as well as ukraine to continue to serious discussions about these far. yeah. and i also called all natal members mazda 2 or more fuel

onto the volume, the warranty. okay. and because you never know what really lead to that you made, you really need to, to the escalation and complete loss of the situation. but if you're going to get all the of it to the shadow or the spectra of what happened in nagasaki and a russian, i obviously casa a long shadow over today's world as well. but nevertheless, china, along with the us along with the u. k. funds many others are spending vast sums of money on that and you can the hospital's a gallery. i wonder if i can turn the discussion on his head slightly and off this because one argument put forward by so cool nuclear weapons up to this is precisely that they are very direct conflicts between major powers. should we gary to some degree? welcome to, i think is certainly true that in the period after the 2nd world war, the presence of nuclear weapons,

especially in the stand off between the united states and the soviet union. the presence of nuclear weapons certainly imposed caution and constraint on the leaders of both countries because they recognized that the use of nuclear weapons would lead to mutual allied elation. as you said, mutually assured destruction. so from that standpoint, nuclear weapons did have a stabilizing impact at the same time as the other guests said, if that turned sales because of miscalculation or escalation from the conventional conflict, the consequences would be catastrophic, not only for the countries involved, but for all of humanity so i think there's still a strong argument for trying to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons beyond the 9 countries that already possess nuclear weapons and which are not going to give them

up. so i think both are true know to your weapons has tended to create stabilization, not only between the us and russia, us and china, also india and pakistan. but at the same time, i think we should try to limit the spread of nuclear weapons. so the less countries have nikolai tennessee there is just adding from what we just said that from gary the, an interesting effect of the country is investing heavily in a new class. those is cool. the stability in stability power, adults the while the public ability of direct conflicts between nuclear powers reduces. it does increase the instances of mine or in direct conflict between countries. to what extent is all nuclear weapons playing an impact in fuel? in existing low level conflicts? i would say this is the docs is true. offers and seconds. uh,

i will not say you uh, but it does crate it or not, but use it for such a conduit is and that's exactly what we now seeing. you crated. uh so basically russia uh says that when the state can not be defeated. so you will use the warranty free. uh the will oh, rush. um it does think that you can leverage the way. welcome so that it's kim. oh. but when can we defeat my? oh, the interests of your brain, but the entire western united states. oh you, i won't say that's all that across the world actually proceed. oh, would it be more cautiously in the sense that, oh, escalation will start? oh, conventional kind of level with conventional strikes and they do oh,

but as i said escalation, oh oh, oh oh, i can do no appeal. the devil? no, really no telling what's going to happen. i don't say that we are leaving you a period that's all about as dangerous as that you wouldn't be solved. price is made to sound with the actual is the best way dangerous and i think all right, it's now growing of it. so we all living at a time, almost as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis says the nikolai, but i want to ask you this to what extent to china is contributing to that. because so when we talk of a new close, don't pause. we don't actually mean the, all of them are deployed. they still need to have long systems spot. for the 1st time. china has deployed $24.00 weapons in a state of quote hi readiness,

which means that they can be fired at any time. why is that? victor, 1st of all, as you call us up to repulse option speculation, know what know seem to, well, how many more has china has and how the ball has china has deployed for active duty service, which means that china's nuclear weapon program in itself is a mystery and kind of position is, as i mentioned, china will never be the 1st to you to use nuclear weapons against any country and how the wheel lock used to grow up against the molecule up in states. all groups of countries which do not use nuclear weapons, and china will have the most sufficient amount of nuclear warheads to retaliate against any country. i mean, any country which stands to launch a nuclear attack against china, this is truly time most position. and terminal does not tell you how many warheads it has. i'm in the war has it has the prize, and i hope come just live to russia and do you by this stage. i'm present level of

problems i was will do exactly what charlize do with enough warheads, but always come in, not to be the 1st one to use nuclear weapons. that's the right thing for all the, all the crap. how us to do a guy returning to you? of course, as i mentioned earlier, we will know the devastating consequences of the use of atomic weapons, nagasaki, hiroshima, of course. but when we talk of the bottle filled in ukraine, that has been, if you will mention that discussion of the use of so called types cool weapons. i just wonder whether the never again sentiment when it comes to nuclear weapons, is somewhat softening in recent years. is certainly the threat to use nuclear weapons on the battlefield, lowers the nuclear threshold because it wouldn't involve a direct attack on a civilian population and the cities. but i think most experts believe that it

would be very difficult to contain the use of nuclear weapons on the battle sale. the once they were used, it could easily escalate to counter use of nuclear weapons on the battlefield. and that could be expanded to a much broader nuclear conflict. so in theory and certainly during the cold war, the us plan for the use of battlefield nuclear weapons against a soviet and warsaw pact, conventional forces because the us thought of what it was added. disadvantage and the reverse is true. now russia plans for the use of a battlefield weapons against nato. russia, thanks, it's weakening the nato. but fortunately that proposition has never been tested and i think it's very important to maintain, to avoid conflict it. and the situation in which a nuclear power thinks it needs to resort to battlefield nuclear weapons in order

to avoid defeat q for that. uh nikolai, as we reached the end of our discussion to somebody who was directly involved in assisting and encouraging the disarmament process over the many decades. i just wonder whether you feel that the work of the pos, 50 is as being somewhat undone. we all know where near the kind of stop falls that existed at the height of the cold war. when the us us all have 40000 warheads, the us, 23000. but do you feel that things all go into the wrong direction, nikolai? yeah, the thing is go in the wrong direction. let me say the numbers are not the most important. the actual parameter there is i don't really see large scale going of use of nuclear weapons, but you will want to know where people are to. well, i think it wouldn't be all good strong with his specially oh he's you talking about using them in your um oh and there's really no way

of to leave the city link of characters or given engage. they're usually just military go dark. okay. all, most of you though. oh yes, i mean, oh, you know it's control and deserving for now. 4 to 4 years actually. uh oh they are in the i see that old retreat is all the regimes that they worked on and they'll be dismantled and disappearing. and that's very, very actually save. busy so i don't know what i'm seeing now. unfortunately. yeah. if i, if i press pessimistic pessimists, the nickel are very, very, very briefly evict uh, we are running out of time. i mean, like any mexican stand off, all of the, well as nuclear power is all pointing the weapons potentially at each other for that to be real progress. everybody needs to single tenuously put down the weapons and back away. what needs to happen, victor?

to encourage a diffusion of these tensions, it is very difficult at this moment. and i think also the most thing call is now is to bring the water, your craigslist stock as quickly as possible to prevent it from escalating from conventional welfare to create a welfare and from us preventing it from spinning all that to out of the need to remember states because otherwise mankind is playing with fire with his walking your credit because small data, if it is less to as a to is getting nice, explodes in the way. and then it is not only that you create him, people will stop with the consequences mankind as a whole world of stuff. but the colorado is all it is pro, just possible you'll create. that's great. it's time to stop the will. victor and mankind is playing with fire. it has been illuminating, if some will bleed conversation, hopefully we found something to be hopeful of the gallery stable. nicolai's talk of

victor. go a pleasure. tap all 3 of you on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i would just 0. don't com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you could also join the conversation on x or handle is a inside story for me, the bulk of the whole team. here it is. the the latest news as it breaks. there's really military has been forced to stop locating a blockade on the gauze of reb, severely limit exam 3 of dispensed old goods with detailed coverage. human rights organizations have well come the us decision to place as well on the list of countries that violates children's rights from the hall. so the story,

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