a pod, his aim interviews is israel and obstacles piece. i think that the new thing you have on his government with these 5 digit you say getting less of a thought provoking on the e. you made weapons being used in cost. no doubt it should be used in an offensive way. that's our facing realities you're running. mean what does he bring to the table? hard from being presidential? could we go to some we cannot take the fact that he was signing up as an, as not that important effective. he had the story on talk to how does era yes, again, israel is accused of committing rule crimes against palestinians this time by you and by commission of inquiry says, unless is october attacks didn't happen in a vacuum listing in groups or so i received a share of the flame, but who will enforce accounts ability. this is inside story, the

walk into the program on the bulk of a report by a you and by commission of inquiry funds as well. who's committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during the woman 8 months of war in gaza. it also says a mass on all the posting it on groups violated international humanitarian rule. during their attack on the southern is route and october, the conclusions full of thousands of interviews with the victims and advance forensic analysis of medical reports and satellite images. but both a un security council resolution and a binding ruling by the un stop court failed to hold as well as offensive. will this damning evidence for the isolate benjamin netanyahu, who's right when government, and couldn't make international support for israel led by a strong guess. i like the us increasingly untenable. we'll put these questions to our guests in just a moment, but 1st, the support by michael of war crimes and breaches of international

humanitarian role. just some of the damming findings against israel in a new you in report report focused takes, it was compiled by an independent commission of inquiry task with investigating events and palestinian territories. and israel, it was no easy task, is about and has obstructed the commission's investigations and prevented its excess. not only to isabel and garza but to the occupied palestinian territory. some of the conclusions include israel use. starvation is a method of warfare. it's troops intentionally attack civilians and carried out acts of sexual violence amounting to torture. it also found the total siege imposed on gaza was collective punishment. and that in the occupied waste bank, the government was stoking settling violence against palestinian communities. and

the only conclusion you can drawers that these riley armies, one of the most criminal armies in the world. but all a morality to netanyahu to this time. and these really army, the idea if is one of the most moral militaries in the world. the commission also condemns home us and other palestinian on groups saying the tax in southern israel on october, the 7th amount tuvell crimes. but the group argues, comparisons shouldn't be drawn with israel because how much fighters are fighting a genocide carried out by occupying forces? i mean, the report does however, acknowledge that how much is attacked didn't occur in a vacuum that it was preceded by decades of violence, illegal occupation, and these rails denial of palestinians rights to self determination. it's recommendations, quote on these riley government to implement to cease firing garza and comply with the orders of the you and the top court is that it must immediately behold. it's me

too often. reports documenting crimes on both sides are piling up, begging the question will accountability become another victim of this will mike level l g 0 for inside store. okay, let's bring in a panel of guess. now formal perspective on the report bills on as spelt is joining us from toronto. he's the acting israel and palestine associate direct to all the middle east and north africa program. us human rights watch in tel aviv or redrawn me is a full that is where the government spokesman and founding presidents, all of the jerusalem press club and in london, william little is the editor of our digest and online current affairs, newsletter and a veteran, middle east correspondence, welcome all 3 of you to inside story a bill if i can start with you 7000 pieces of evidence painted image,

all of these alleged atrocities carried out by posting and fighters on october, the 7th, and the sway, the ministry since the end over the past many months now the capitalist, of course, being the decades long occupation, it appears that we kind of, when it comes to these findings underestimate what lights they shine on the basis of the conflict and how the conflict has developed. and if i months that it's been underway. yeah, that's right. i think these reports from the un commission of inquiry on the international crimes by israeli forces, as well as by the palestinian armed groups are important for their conclusion. that again, as you're, as you said, this didn't happen in a vacuum that the kinds of atrocity crimes we've been seeing since october 7th, really come out of the context of decades of impunity for this kind of abuse. i mean, we've been talking about war crimes and these really palestinian context crimes

against humanity for many, many years. and victims have never really had any access to justice. there has also been outright denial of crimes occurring and blockages of access to just as by israel's may now like the united states over many years that the security council and, and other forms. so you know, this, these reports are, i think adding to the mountain of evidence that uh, you know, grave crimes have been committed and they're raising the stakes for the international community. and again, to point the finger at the united states, which claims to want a rules based international order. when you've got this amount of evidence piling up of the most egregious abuses of that, of those international rules. you know, what are you going to do about it? are you going to allow impunity to persist for more decades and see another round of incredible violence like this, where you're going to finally put some political muscle and, and pressure is real and pressure the international community to demand accountability at long last well, hopefully get stuck into whether or not there is

a political muscle, a little bit later on in the program, but just to be clear to our view is the support. i have an advance copy of it. he it consists of 2 power lo investigations. one focused on the october the 7th attack on israel led by on putting in groups on the other, of course, on israel's military response. let's get to israel in a minute, but 1st let's focus on the on a mass. because according to the report, 800 civilians were among the move in 1200 killed by a mass of the other policy in groups. it includes what report calls quote, sexual and gender based violence against a number of somebody in something that has a mazda is always the denied. also, we need to get into specifics in the case of a 79 year old woman. and her 12 year old, which is the granddaughter shot dead apparently because they was slowing down the retreat of the captives. the examples go on and on and on. or how do these findings do you think shape or your understanding of october, the 7th, and what will as well make of these allegations against them as well

as you mentioned the um. ready the report really uh, focuses on the on both sides. i bought this uh. busy this call is in effect here, which is uh, sometimes people tend to forget because uh, the whole event, this is just happened by so it happens when come us last this terrorist attack these changes. there was a vacuum of october 7th. and then what followed was the, is the response, which i think any democracy trying to defend the it's of let, is a population will do. so there's a cause and effect here. uh and once you put them uh, on the, on the, on the same, the scale you missing the form. i pig visit. you mentioned the

accountability at the beginning. uh, i think those one uh, was missing in the uh rather kind of slow um vocabulary. and that is accountability, they launched the 7th day october a, back and then they cried. will they say, oh oh my god, see what happens is because of this adults don't do is don't launch just the 7 and you don't get the rest of it. okay, i'm going to put the next question to to william, because a mazda is a two's the inquiry of equating the victim with the execution of power. thing unsubstantiated claims about. well, i'm us and other policy. no, i'm groups may have done on october the 7th. what does that response from about, say to you about how it regards this investigation that indeed others with him?

what it says to me that to come us like israel is prepared to attempt at least to walk away from the implications of this. i think very well balanced reports and, and i disagree that this event, this as of october simply occurred, there was a context. it came out of a long, long history of, of suppression of power student rights and listed in the and aspirations. and, and i think that home us needs to take more responsibility. we, we know that how much use a civilians shows they've done it and that does not in any way make acceptable what the is really the idea done in the response. they die a doctor and so called the disproportionate use of force. the targeting of civilian

infrastructure of uh, residence is also called safe areas. it clearly this is going way beyond anything that is acceptable. both sides are guilty of war crimes. both sides need to accept responsibility. i don't that either side where, you know, we, we, we will, i think, disclose accountability but it's going to be very difficult to achieve. accountability in the, in the sort of a landscape is less than one. then move on to what the report says about israel. by fall, the lion's share of the report, details a catalogue of unbridled bottoms starvation as a weapon of war. the collective punishment and displacement of civilians and intentional violence against civilians. not to mention port sure, abuse, sexual humiliation of detainees, of the house, of course, the decades long of the pay up to the occupation um the commission basically set they also over whelmed with the amount of evidence that they have to wait through.

it's difficult to know where to stop bill, always scratching the surface see, given that this investigation of the deals with the 1st 3 months of the conflict. yeah, the number of reports coming out are growing and way too. and yet the scale of the abuses that have happened since october 7th are, are so massive that i think, i think you're right. we are just sort of at the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's known. so many families have been destroyed. so many people have been killed, so many children have lost one or both parents. you know, the number of kids who have lost their legs, who have been, uh, amputated by the war is, is an estimate. we don't even know how many people are buried under the revel. um, you know, or who has named people may have died of starvation or, or preventable disease. you know, as you say, the list really goes on and so does the conflict. and so do the work runs. so, you know, there's, i think unfortunately no alternative but to continue documenting to continue trying

to apply pressure on the parties to finally begin to uphold their minimum obligations under the under international law. and just $11.00 response to the idea that this is cause and effect that you know, what is written that everything is fluid since october 7th was the result sadly or tragically of what happened on october 7th. well, you know, absolutely not. the, the, the international law is based on the very basic idea that war crimes and criminal activity atrocities by one side do not ever justify atrocities were crimes by the other side. so imposing a total siege and collective punishment on more than 2000000 people is absolutely unnecessary and unjustified in, in pursuit of war goals. and that's the sort of thing these reports keep telling us . but unfortunately, the parties are not listening to hi lori, the israel says in response to the release of this report, but it is quote, reflective of systematic anti israel discrimination. now seems to almost mirror

watson. i'm us said in response to israel complaints about a quote, quote false equivalence between a mass and this way the ministry is not defensiveness. you think shed by this way, the people at large. but 1st of all, i have, i just want to remind a us that i'm not the a, maybe a fish in the capacity now. so i speak only for myself, but i know that the other was images will uh, pull this uh, automatic uh, cargo. everybody's inside as well. um yes, i think by the way uh is what would be small to launch its own investigation. uh, which we talked about. but unfortunately, it doesn't happen though, because then at least the global community would have seen

that is what is a really checking itself. but i think the majority of his riley believe that when judging is, well people take up what is, what on the higher stand, the higher, higher bridges. so then then the other democracies, 5 thing terrorism. and by the way, people, most people here don't believe i don't believe, and i know it's not the case with is oh, target civilians intentionally. we go all the way not to to do that. but as long as you mentioned already, a mouse is uh known for uh, ceramic it says with the human to use. so it's very difficult for the democracy like as well uh to uh, defend itself into uh a g b warbles uh legally. uh if you,

if you wish. 1 a fight think his thoughts conditions. okay, so i would say no, i don't think. busy is against, as well, i think is right for them. uh, checked itself 1st, bought uh at the same time, certain things i expected for him is, or the most expected from the demo because they all right. uh, are we talking talking about israel or needing to, to check itself william israel has loan claim to be amongst the most moral armies in the world. i mean, those claims appear to be with the ring in the daylight. when we look at the details of this report, yes and not just in the details of the report, what goes on day and day out of the argument, the self defense. yes, but that's been stretched the furthest possible limits of a cruel absurdity. this is not self defense, this is

a carrying out an attack ruthlessly on civilian targets. and you know, you've got to say and i, and i really am often when i hear it. astonished at, at is really as either whether they're speaking on behalf of themselves or government officials saying that the adf applies more stringent rules and in its use of weapons than any other army in the world. we are held to a higher standard than any other democracy. the numbers speak for themselves. the numbers are the office just simply awful. i mean what i'm approaching 40000 killed close 280-0000 wounded. 2 thirds of them, women and children. this is not acceptable is not acceptable for israel, which says it is a democracy to be justifying the slaughter of civilians. okay, gentlemen,

let's move on and talk about the expectations and the limitations of this report. because one of the interesting aspects that it reveals of the lens, israel appears to have gone to, to obstruct the investigation process itself. and a little bit earlier on i spoke to francesca albanese, the u. m. special russell to on the occupied palestinian territories. who uh, why he didn't know about his what she had to say. israel obstructed the permission of inquiry. an international community shouldn't be wise. access to victims. austin's is survivors when it says, well why, why, what is uh, what, what does israel years of being exposed bro. i wonder if you can answer francesca alban, i use these question that, what is israel afraid of? why does it feel that it needs to put stumbling blocks in the road for these

investigations, trying to shed light to the world about what's been happening in this country? as well, israel's refusal to cooperate and obstruction of the work if the commission of inquiry is really a part of a pattern, israel has not cooperated with most united nations and investigations. we have the international court of justice itself having issued a provisional measure of binding order on his real, to allow genocide investigators into the gaza strip. that has not happened. indeed, i believe the roof of border crossing was, was pretty much burned down and has been, has been shot. you know, human rights watch is not allowed in to the guy. so strips through is real. other independent investigators are not allowed in, you know, foreign journalists have been, have, have not been allowed. and so yes, this raises this rhetorical question from the special rep or to a francesco vanessa. what is what is being hidden?

you know, it's not really being hidden that well because look at the commission of inquiry is reports look at a lot of other independent and very credible sources of information about all the work crimes that have been going on. crimes against humanity in gaza, also against palestinian detainees. also in the west bank, which is more accessible, you know, but trying to hide the evidence and trying to attack the investigator or to attack the messenger of, of, of the news about these crimes. it's a tried and true method, this is not the 1st time. and again we need political pressure on his real to stop that. and as your other guest said, you know, we would also very much like to see how much on the post in your own groups. fully participating, taking this very seriously, taking these, you know, well documented the crimes committed on october 7th, seriously a, to prevent that repetition, but it has to happen. um, you know, at a, at a large scale it's got a, it's, it's got to involve the full participation and pressure on,

on israel as well. well, that's drill down into the whole issue of accountability because specifically the report accuses as well of quote, undermining the possibility of future judicial proceedings. accountability and justice means that someone given the failure of multiple un resolutions in the past given to complete disregard for their professional measures issued by the international court of justice of the hague. over concerns with a genocide is underway in gauze a given the fact that this being this application for arrest warrants financial in yahoo and the defense administered by the international criminal court. i mean was different. so to will this report make to anything? yeah. what, what, what impact, uh, well as, as you say, is a long, long and pretty dismal record of un resolutions of investigations of condemnations. the israel has chose to

ignore, chose to avoid then, buying law done very, very successfully. i do think however, that this report because it is so forensic and really shocking and it's detail, and you mentioned to me that the reading of it is very gram from both what, how much did but what the idea has done and continues to do. and i think that's the point for me is or out. it says it is a democracy. i'm us describe this as, as, as a terrorist entity. how moss is and behaving in a way that many find reprehensible. but it's the democracy's year and israel's behaving in a reprehensible way. so i do think that it's this report will make it more difficult for israel's friends and allies to sustain their support, to sustain the narrative that israel is the only victim here. and that any

criticism of how these are one these are conducting this war, is it still in fact though, the anti semitism? and i think that that narrative is faltering, and i think it's faltering and certainly faltering here in the u. k. i think that joe biden is finding it increasingly difficult to hold that law. i'm particularly nothing you i was he did on tuesday, so you're not giving us enough bomb your, the reason why we haven't won this war, which, you know, again, is it's a delivery statement. but it also shows the contempt that nothing you know, has for buying. and, you know, if he's doing that with this great, great friends, think about the impact. it's happening in other parts in europe, for example, in the global. so it's of course is completely lost or israel now or is it possible to fairly describe, this is content for nothing?

no, he's close to so long as the united states and indeed office well i, i say this thing is the grossest. and i bought, uh i, i was uh dismay to see my minister uh, talking with this about the rate this friend the phase. well joe biden. and the, and, and depth for me like many others and is or was uh not sure if nothing. yeah, would leave us alone and the, and will work phone that and other government which will act more sanely, especially because of the uh, greatest rent. but i just wanna say that is or would be small to hold the, to only investigation because that was the x at least show that as a democracy. uh, it is looking into uh, seriously doing what it's doing. also, i should mentioned,

this is suspicion. as many as are these have the words these gone on fire investigations especially go from the un when that when the israel has been big. uh is it is it is the parent they already i am the understand the, the to it is of course. and israel's interest to want to potentially discredit how rigorous this investigation is. but do you think anybody will credibly take a investigation by as well into potentially will crime is carried out by israel. seriously. i think so. yes. but at the same time i listen to what uh, if i just kind of been interested and i think is what else do they have? i. ready done better and boat in a good with that. with this i remember the gold stone result. the government here refused to go ahead and only later, much later when they did the collaboration of gold starting to

show the changes the is don't and reboot. so uh, i think the idea of not cooperating is not a good idea, but at the same time i mention this suspicion that many of us that again use these kinds of reports. very losely, i want to turn to you bill if i may, because i wonder to what extent findings like this lead us closer to prosecuting perhaps the, the big most overall king key allegation leveled at this route, which is of course the decades long occupation of putting in land, the yeah, the, the issue of occupation and let me just turn for a 2nd to the issues of apartheid and the settlement because there's a whole lot of international crimes that are relevant here. and you know, the i c c prosecutor as you mentioned,

has applied for arrest warrants for 3 him us leaders as well as a to israeli leaders. but all the rest weren't so far are just for events since october 7th by the i. c. c has jurisdiction going back many years before that. and a lot of people in the human rights movement have been pushing the prosecutor to seriously consider investigating and, and prosecuting pete. ready for the settlements regime as well as for the crimes against humanity, the parts side. so it's, you know, the context here is one of the, as, as has been said, many decades of crimes. but some of those are among the most serious crimes on the books. what we need now, just to end with, in terms of what we really need for accountability, look, international justice is a long game. prosecutions may not happen very soon. what we values right now is a suspension of arms transfers out all kinds of our i'm gonna have to wrap up the conversation that we've reached the end of the program bill, but it has spelled well redrawn me and william low

a pleasure to have all 3 of you on inside story, and thanks to francesca, open a sofa inputs and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i'll just give a don't com. and for further discussion, go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash h a inside story. you'd also join the conversation on x or handle this as a insight story for me. the falkland holtzie, in his bye for now the the latest news as it breaks with emigration advocates challenge president trump asylum order back in 2018 with detailed coverage. while the santa writes remains from the in the saddle, the far right is expected to shake off politics in brussels. from around the world, the growth rate of the russian economy is ahead of the world average and russia has

already overtaken japan in germany in terms of the size of it's a corner, a unique perspective. one picture is not going to tell the entire 8 months of the genocide. however, it is bringing attention to advise that this is not a rough. it looks like we're off. it looks like so on heard voices. we've been seeing the exacerbation of the militarization and the police over the past 10 years . connect with our community and tap into conversations you will find elsewhere, folks in the region, government and other companies are stealing indigenous land, the stream on out to 0. so we don't simply focus on the politics of the conflict. it's the human suffering definitely reports on. we brave bullets and bombs, and we always include the views from all sides. the

color there understands you pay. this is and use our line from the hall coming up in the next 60 minutes. the police and demonstrates is class across opinion for good by the government's plans to raise taxes. to johns, robinson thoughtful as has continued to make gains reporting the taking control of one of the last 2 remaining on the basis. and so the.