meeting entire households and the rest of the words of those who survived on with the help of palestinian generalists, folk lines, toes, the harrowing stories of 3 families and investigates us complicity in the world's most brutal in decades the night. and biden's wanted us to just either yes, again, israel is accused of committing rule crimes against palestinians this time by you and box commission of inquiry says, unless is october attacks didn't happen in a vacuum listing in groups or so i received a share of the flame but who will enforce accounts, ability, basis, insights, story the

welcome to the program on the bulk of a report by a u and by commission of inquiry funds as well, has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during the war than 8 months of war in gaza. it also says a mass on all the policy needed on groups violated international humanitarian rule . during their attack on the southern is route and october, the conclusions for those thousands of interviews with the victims and advance forensic analysis of medical reports and satellite images. but both a un security council resolution and a binding ruling by the un stop court failed to hold as well as offensive. will this damning evidence for the i slate benjamin netanyahu, who's right when government, and couldn't make international support. israel led by a strong guess. i like the us increasingly untenable. we'll put these questions to our guests in just a moment, but 1st, the support by michael of war crimes and breaches of international humanitarian role. just some of the damming findings against israel in

a new you and report. report focused takes it was compiled by an independent commission of inquiry task with investigating events and palestinian territories. and israel, it was no easy task, is it on has obstructed the commissions investigations and prevented its excess. not only to isabella and garza but to the occupied palestinian territory. some of the conclusions include israel use salvation as a method of welfare. it's troops intentionally attack civilians and carried out acts of sexual violence amounting to torture. it also found the total siege imposed on gaza was collective punishment. and that in the occupied waste bank, the government was soaking settled a violence against palestinian communities. and the only conclusion you can drawers that these riley army use. one of the most criminal armies in the world. but all

a morality to netanyahu to this time. and these really are me the idea if is one of the most moral militaries in the world. the commission also condemns how mosse and other palestinian norm to groups saying the tax and southern israel on october, the 7th amount to ball crimes. but the group argues, comparisons shouldn't be drawn with israel. because how much fighters are fighting a genocide carried out by occupying forces? i mean, the report does however, acknowledge that how much is attacked didn't occur in a vacuum. that it was preceded by decades of violence, illegal occupation. and these rails denial of palestinians, right to self determination. it's recommendations, quote on these riley government to implement to cease firing garza and comply with the orders of the you and the top court is the most immediate to the whole. it's me

too often reports documenting crimes on both sides or piling up, taking the question with accountability become another victim of this will mike level l g 0 for inside store. okay, let's bring in a panel of guess now, formal perspective on the report. bills on s spelled is joining us from toronto. he's the acting israel and palestine associate direct to all the middle east and north africa program. us human rights watch in tel aviv or we don't me is a full that is ready to government spokesman and founding presidents, all of the jerusalem press club. and in london, william little is the editor of our digest and online current affairs, newsletter and a veteran, middle east correspondence. welcome. all 3 of you to inside story a bill. if i can start with you 70000 pieces of evidence painted image, all of these alleged atrocities carried out by most promising and fighters on

october, the 7th, and the sway, the ministry since then over the past many months. now the capitalist, of course, being the decades long occupation, it appears that we kind of, when it comes to these findings underestimate what lights they shine on the basis of the conflict and how the conflict has developed. and if i months that it's been under way. yeah, that's right. i think these reports from the u. m. commission of inquiry on the international crimes by israeli forces as well as by the palestinian arm groups are important for their conclusion that again, as you're, as you said, this didn't happen in a vacuum that the kinds of atrocity crimes we've been seeing since october 7th, really come out of the context of decades of impunity for this kind of abuse. i mean you've, we've been talking about war crimes and these rarely palestinian context crimes against humanity for many, many years. and victims have never really had any access to justice. there has also

been outright denial of crimes occurring and blockages of access to just as by israel's main. i like the united states over many years that the security council and, and other forms. so you know, this, these reports are, i think adding to the mountain of evidence that uh, you know, grave crimes have been committed and they're raising the stakes for the international community. and again, to point the finger at the united states, which claims to want a rules based international order. when you've got this amount of evidence piling up of the most egregious abuses of that, of those international rules. you know, what are you going to do about it? are you going to allow impunity to persist for more decades and see another round of incredible violence like this, where you're going to finally put some political muscle and, and pressure israel, and pressure the international community to demand accountability at long last? well, hopefully get stuck into whether or not there is a political muscle a little bit later on in the program. but just to be clear,

2 of you is the support. i have an advanced copy of it. he, it consists of 2 power lo investigations. one focused on the october the 7th attack on israel led by on putting in groups on the other, of course, on israel's military response. let's get to israel in a minute, but 1st let's focus on the on a mass. because according to the report, 800 civilians were among the move in 1200 killed by a mass of other policy mean groups. it includes what report calls quote, sexual and gender based violence against a number of somebody in something that has a mazda is always the denied. also, we need to get into the specifics in the case of a 79 year old woman. and her 12 year old autistic grand daughter shot dead apparently because they was slowing down the retreat of the comforts as the examples go on and on and on. or how do these findings do you think shape are your understanding of october? the 7th? and what will as well make of these allegations against them as well

as you mentioned the uh the results really uh, focused on the on both sides. i bought this uh. busy this call is in effect here, which is uh, sometimes people tend to, to forget because uh, the whole event, this is just happened by so it happens when come us last this terrorist attack these changes. there was a vacuum of october 7th. and then what followed was the, is the response, which i think any democracy trying to defend the it's of let, is a population will do. so there is a cause and effect here. uh and once you put them uh, on the, on the, on the same, the scale you missing the portal. i think there's a,

you mentioned the accountability at the beginning. uh, i think those one uh, was missing in the uh rather kind of slow um vocabulary. and that is accountability, they launched the 7th day october a, back and then they cried. will they say what? oh my god, see what happens? because of this adults don't do is don't launch just the 7 and you don't get the, the rest of the week. okay, i'm going to put the next question to, to william, because a mazda, as of tuesday inquiry of equating the victim with the execution of power thing unsubstantiated claims about. well, i'm os another policy. no, i'm groups may have done on october the 7th. what does that response from about, say to you about how it regards this investigation that indeed others with him? well, it says to me that hum us like israel is prepared to attempt at

least to walk away from the implications of this, i think very well balanced reports. and, and i disagree that this event, this as of october simply occurred. there was a context, it came out of a long, long history of, of suppression of power student rights. and i lived in the and aspirations and, and i think that home us needs to take more responsibility. we, we know that how much use of civilians shows they've done it. that does not in any way make acceptable what the is really the idea done in the response the, the aisle doctrine. so call the disproportionate use of force, the targeting of civilian infrastructure of uh, residence is also called safe areas. and clearly this is going

way beyond anything that is acceptable. both sides are guilty of war crimes. both sides need to accept responsibility. i don't that either side where, you know, we, we, we will, i think discuss accountability but it's going to be very difficult to achieve accountability in the, in the sort of a landscape. it's less than one. then move on to what the report says about israel . by fall, the lion's share of the report details a catalogue of unbridled violence, starvation as a weapon of war. the collective punishments and displacement of civilians and intentional violence against civilians. not to mention port sure, abuse, sexual humiliation of detainees, of the hands of, of course, the decades long of the pay up to the occupation. um, the commission basically said they also over whelmed with the amount of evidence that they have to wait through. it's difficult to know where to stop bill,

always scratching the surface see, given that this investigation of the deals with the 1st 3 months of the conflict. yeah, the number of reports coming out are growing and way too. and yet the scale of the abuses that have happened since october 7th are, are so massive that i think, i think you're right. we are just sort of at the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's known. so many families have been destroyed. so many people have been. ready so many children have lost one or both parents. you know, the number of kids who have lost their legs, who have been a amputated by the war is, is an estimate. we don't even know how many people are buried under the rubble, you know, or who has named people may have died of starvation or, or preventable disease. you know, as you say, the list really goes on and so does the conflict. and so do the work runs. so, you know, there's, i think unfortunately no alternative but to continue documenting to continue trying

to apply pressure on the parties to finally begin to appeal. ready of their minimum obligations under the under international law. and just $11.00 response to the idea that this is cause and effect that you know, what is that everything is fluid since october 7th was the result sadly or tragically of what happened on october 7th. well, you know, absolutely not. the, the, the international law is based on the very basic idea that war crimes and criminal activity atrocities by one side do not ever justify atrocities were crimes by the other side. so, imposing a total siege and collective punishment on more than 2000000 people is absolutely unnecessary and unjustified in, in pursuit of war goals. and that's the sort of thing these reports keep telling us . but unfortunately the parties are not listening a. hi, well or are you the israel says in response to the release of this report that it is quote, reflective of systematic anti israel discrimination now seems to almost mirror was

a mass set in response to israel complaints about a quote quote, false equivalence between hum us and this way the ministry is that defensiveness, you think shed by this way, the people at large. well, 1st of all, i just want to remind a us that i'm not that it made me ok. certainly a capacity now. so i'd speak on it for myself, but i know that there was a miserable uh dump pool this uh, automatic uh, cod over everybody's in israel. um, yes, i think by the way, uh, here's what it would be small to launch its own investigation, which we talk about. but unfortunately, it doesn't happen though, because then at least the, the, the global community will that be seen. that is what is

a really checking itself. but i think the majority of his riley believe that when judging is, well people take a put is what on the higher stand, the higher, higher bridges so than than other democracies. a 5 think there was in and by the way people, most people here, i don't believe i don't the name and i know it's not the case with is out to target civilians intentionally. we go all the way not to uh to do that. but as long as you mentioned already, a mouse is uh known for uh, ceramic it says with the human to use. so it's very difficult for the democracy like as well uh to uh, defend itself and to achieve these warbles uh legally. uh if you, if you wish, oh, a fighting is such conditions. okay, so i would say no,

i don't think all of. busy it is against as well, i think is right for them. uh, checked itself 1st, but uh at the same time, certain things i expect it for me is so that the most expected from our, the democracy. all right, uh, are we talking talking about israel or needing to, to check itself william israel has long claim to be amongst the most moral armies in the world. i mean, those claims appear to be withering in the daylight when we look at the details of this report. yes. and not just in the details those report what goes on day and day out of the argument of self defense. yes, but that's been stretched the furthest possible limits of a cruel absurdity. this is not self defense. this is a carrying out an attack ruthlessly on civilian targets. and, you know,

you've got to say and i, and i really am often when i hear it. astonished at at is really is either whether they're speaking on behalf of themselves or government officials saying that the idea of applies more stringent rules and in its use of, of, of weapons than any other army in the world. we are held to a higher standard than any other democracy. the numbers speak for themselves. the numbers are the office just simply awful. i mean what i'm approaching 40000 killed close 280-0000 wounded. 2 thirds of them, women and children. this is not acceptable is not acceptable for israel, which says it is a democracy to be justifying the slaughter of civilians. okay, gentlemen, let's move on and talk about the expectations and the limitations of this report.

because one of the interesting aspects that it reveals of the lens, israel appears to have gone to, to obstruct the investigation process itself. and a little bit earlier on i spoke to francesca albanese, the u. m. special russell to on the occupied palestinian territories. who uh, why he didn't know about his what she had to say. israel obstructed the permission of the inquiry. an international community shouldn't be wise. access to victims. austin's is survivors reading that says, why, why, what is uh, what would that israel years of being exposed? bro, i wonder if you can onset francesca open. i use these question that, what is israel afraid of? why does it feel that it needs to put stumbling blocks in the road for these investigators is trying to shed light to the world about what's been happening in

this country as well. israel's refusal to cooperate in obstruction of the work if the commission of inquiry is really a part of a pattern. israel has not cooperated with most united nations and investigations. we have the international court of justice itself having issue to provisional measure of binding order on his real, to allow genocide investigators into the gaza strip. that has not happened. indeed, i believe the roof of border crossing was, was pretty much burned down and has been, has been shot. um, you know, uh human rights watch is not allowed in to the gaza strip through is real. other independent investigators are not allowed in, you know, foreign journalists have been, have, have not been allowed in. so yes, this raises this rhetorical question from the special rep or to a francesco been, is it, what is what is being hidden? you know, it's not really being hidden that well because look at the condition of inquiries,

reports look at a lot of other independent and very credible sources of information about all the work crimes that have been going on. crimes against humanity in gaza, also against palestinian detainees. also in the west bank, which is more accessible, you know, but trying to hide the evidence and trying to attack the investigator or to attack the messenger of, of, of the news about these crimes. it's a tried and true method. this is not the 1st time, and again we need political pressure on his real to stop that. and as your other guest said, you know, we would also very much like to see um how much on the palestinian arm groups fully participating, taking this very seriously taking these you know, well documented crimes committed on october 7th, seriously a to prevent that repetition. but it has to happen, um, you know, at a, at a large scale it's got a, it's, it's got to involve the full participation in pressure on, on israel as well. let's drill down into the whole issue of accountability because

specifically the report accuses as well of quote, undermining the possibility of future judicial proceedings. accountability and justice means that someone given the failure of multiple un resolutions in the past, given a complete disregard for the professional measures issued by the international court of justice of the hague. over concerns with the genocide is on the way in gauze a given the fact that this being this application for arrest warrants financial in yahoo and the defense, minnesota by the international criminal court. i mean what difference a to will this report make to anything? yeah. what, what, what impact, uh, well as, as you say, is a long, long and pretty dismal record of un resolutions of investigations of condemnations. the israel has chose to ignore, chose to avoid them by in law done very,

very successfully. i do think however, that this report because it is so forensic and really shocking and it's detail. and you mentioned to me that the, with the reading of it is very gram uh for both. what, how much did, but what the idea has done and continues to do. and i think that's the point for me is or out. it says it is a democracy. i'm us. describe it as, as, as a terrorist entity how moss is, is behaving in a way that many find reprehensible. but it's really a democracy's year and israel's behaving in a reprehensible way. so i do think that it's, this report will make it more difficult for israel's friends and allies to sustain their support, to sustain the narrative that israel is the only victim here. and that any criticism of how these or one of these are conducting this war,

is it still in fact though, the anti semitism, i think jot that narrative is faltering, and i think it's faltering is certainly faltering here in the u. k. i think that joe biden is finding it increasingly difficult to hold that law in particular when that's and you know, as he did on tuesday. so it's, you're not giving us enough bomb your, the reason why we haven't won this war, which, you know, again, is it's a delivery statement. but it also shows the contempt that nothing you know, has for buying. and, and, you know, he's doing that with this great, great friends. think about the impact it's having in other parts in europe, for example. and the global so of course is completely lost or israel now or is it possible to finally describe this is content for nothing? no, he's close to so long as the united states and the date of this. well i,

i say this thing is the grossest and i bought uh i, i was dismayed to see my minister uh, talking with this about the rate this friend the phase. well joe biden. and the, and, and that for me like many others and is or was uh not sure if nothing. yeah would leave us alone and that will work phone that and other government which will act more sanely, especially these will be our greatest rent. but i just wanna say that is or would be small to hold the to own investigation because that was the x a at least show that as a democracy, it is looking into seriously doing what it's doing. also, i should mentioned this as a suspicion, as many as are these have the words these gone off by investigation especially go

from the un eh, when that when the israel has the big uh is the is it is the parent they already, i am the understand the the to it is of course, and israel's interest to want to potentially discredit how rigorous this investigation is. but do you think anybody will credibly take a investigation by israel into potential will crime is carried out by israel. seriously. i think so. yes. but at the same time i listen to what uh, if i just kind of been interested and i think as well as do they have uh. ready done better and boat in a good with that. with this, i remember the gold stone ripple. the government here refused to go ahead. and only later, much later when they did the collaboration of votes telling me. so j g is a, is don't, and report. so. busy so uh,

i think the idea of not cooperating is not a good idea, but at the same time, i mentioned this suspicion that many of us, that again, is these kinds of reports. very losely, i want to turn to you bill if i may, because i want to to what extent findings like this lead is closer to prosecuting, perhaps the, the big most overall king key allegation leveled at this route, which is of course, the decades long occupation of putting a land yeah, the, the issue of occupation and let me just turn for a 2nd to the issues of apartheid and the settlements because there's a whole lot of international crimes that are relevant here. and you know, the i c, c prosecutor as you mentioned, has applied for arrest warrants for 3 him us leaders as well as

a to is really leaders. but all the rest weren't so far are just for events since october 7th by the i. c. c has jurisdiction going back many years before that. and a lot of people in the human rights movement have been pushing the prosecutor to seriously consider investigating and, and, and prosecuting people for the settlements regime as well as for the crimes against humanity, the parts side. so it's, you know, the context here is one of, as, as has been so many decades of crimes, but some of those are among the most serious crimes on the books. what we need now, just to end with, in terms of what we really need for accountability, look international, just as a money game. prosecutions may not happen very soon. what we values right now is a suspension of arms transfers. the kinds of our i'm gonna have to wrap up the conversation that we've reached the end of the program bill, but it has failed. well, redraw me and william little a pleasure to have all 3 of you on inside story. and thanks to francesca albanese

for the inputs and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. i would just have a don't com. and for further discussion, go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. it also joined the conversation on x on handle is asked asia inside story for me, the falkland, holtzie, and his bye for now the this is to took is the 1st country in the world to develop a comprehensive, sustainable tourism program in partnership with the global, sustainable tourism comes this country homes more beauties that just looks like beaches, historical and cultural view. rivelo rich and michelin, green star, restaurants come and discover the natural, historical, and cultural beauties. ok, foundation is deliberate,

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this story and he's the people who allow us into their lives, dignity and democracy. the a hello. i'm jessica washington indo. have the top stories on, on to 0 guns as hospitals are facing extreme overcrowding as a struggle to treat that you and wounded, according to the world health organization and the 17 out of $36.00 hospitals, a partially functioning tragedy is find you at every corner of a lot saw hospital after walking into the different. 5 elements of this health care facility, the only remaining to my operational health care facility in the central area. we couldn't help but notice thing the inadequacy of the medical care available for

people. the is mainly military has targeted a residential building in.