impact of war is so much more than just emissions from tanks ships and will fight more than will say it has a devastating effect on people. and the department of defense is emissions is as large as many countries every time. and if you spend an increasing military emissions, increasing endless war, and this kind of christ, all hail the product on a jersey to the us. smith solves 5 by ukraine, kills sunday. those including children on the beach in crimea. moscow rooms, washington, it will respond both sides on escalating weapons and targets and the crime rule. so is there a greater danger of direct conflict between russian knights of this is inside story, [000:00:00;00]

the hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's. a them furious reaction from las go to the latest the time by you crying on russian held crime in american made attack comes weapons 5 by ukranian forces were intercepted by russian defences, but the debris killed civilians on the beach, including children, russia, some of the us and best of the end is vowing to retaliate. thousands of attacks have been carried down to more than 2 years of war between ukraine and russia. the consequences have been devastating for civilians all round. both sides have been using the most advanced weaponry available in the war. so how has made a treat technology evolved during the conflict, most of the risk of outright war between russia in the west? we'll be discussing this with guess shortly. but 1st,

this report from laura on for a moment to grieve, instead of still full with flowers, late to make 6 memorial for victims of ukrainian missile attack. this was the movement on sunday when a trip to the beach for jose make has turned into a terrifying ordeal. debris from high precision guided missiles, raving down on the sand in crimea, scattering those who'd come from relaxation no to which safety. several people, including children, were killed. many of those who wounded the tutor from our kindergarten has suffered . we were on the beach. when all of this happens, it is an unbearable pain. choose most goose, some of the us and boss of the what's it called about barrack attack saying it's provided you train the technology, guidance, and training the ukraine launch 5 us supplied to tech and most me. so i was plus the munitions oh flight missions,

worried produced by the us experts based on the us sites such a light that the us says it's no secret to provide to the weapons, but it's up to you. crane how to use them. we provide weapons to ukraine, so it can defend its sovereign territory against our regression. that includes in crimea, which of course is part of ukraine and russia could stop this war today. us began supplying ukraine short range attack and missiles last year. 2 months ago. it's still to supply longer range versions which can hit target up to $300.00 columbus has. but let's say the us also supporting russia in other ways. it's the very start of this for the united states. and the number of allied countries has been saying that they will continue to supply military intelligence, photo recognizance satellite imagery to the ukraine that are forces.

russia is also relying more heavily on a thumbs weapons. ukraine's, as most goes, been using hypersonic missiles in major cities, including the capsule, kids. this includes their con, hypersonic missile rejects, but se traveled at 9 times the speed of sound and is nearly impossible to shoots down. present inside you may appears in have disclosed russian forces have use these of a hypersonic myself against military infrastructure structure has because it will retaliate against the service stuff will be to talk with the west, pending ukraine, more funds, wesson's, and most also of missing to using the money i could send the world is going on for more than 2 years, may now be entering a new and more dangerous phase north on the inside story out to 0 the last spring. and i guess now we have

joining us from ukraine in odessa. honda show us, she's director of the security studies program at ukrainian prism that's a foreign policy and security think tank from moscow. powell file going, how an independent russian defense analyst and in boston, the united kingdom, patrick fury, is a defense and security analyst at the university of boss and for my position on the office. oh, well welcome to all of i could start with honda. how significant is it honda that we are now seeing you crane use long go range attack. come this house in this for which 1st of all i would like to respond to some of the comments made in the initial video because it's being quite a money palatial. we don't have the approved that the debrief from the ukranian shoot me science. there are plenty of reduce demonstrated in the russian social networks that there will be in russian a. it depends that work inappropriately,

not speaking, that there were no a range. so people were not even notified considering the they're at the beach, which has jobs. they wrapped in near the military base, and that's being very well known as cranium. people are very um, annoyed now with the local authorities and that they allow such situations. and uh, let me jump in there though and say we have seen comments from ukrainian officials like advise me, kyla positive eoc cooling civilians in this crimea attack quote, civilian occupies, it does sound like the ukrainians recognize that there was civilian casualties. it's not a justification for it. you know, i don't know how you turn sleepless or pull the code. that's why it will not come out. but the ukraine statements be very clear. that's russia made pretty near. i'm really to write the when the basis almost in each village. i'm close most of the

beaches for the last 10 years. and that is a very well known because they made all defense education. you can see the photos from you for totally a beach full of the shooting grand just and prepared stations. the brothers to come standing just on the beach was they were presenting this courtney so much militarized. so the thoughts are, if you a militarize in the recreational those you on this task that you're bringing the military charge of just very close to the civilians. that's why that is quite a serious question, but give them you style is going against the military of just in case you're a defense is worth taking appropriate place that is the jeopardizing of the likes and the civilian and the temperature of the we have the civilian cause realities by just few weeks ago, we had absolutely the same situation in my see to the whole day when the cross stormy style cluster munitions, i am co, russia is to say i just the beach recreationally deal with thousands people are

killed as the but nobody called it, as the escalation was something like these, and these to return back about the longer i won't say that suddenly we receive something different from what we have because of grain older, depart here are using storm shadonia styles from the united kingdom was 250 kilometers raised, we use it to me, so i was a guest coordinator that is ukrainian made with the 280 kilometers and not even longer than your modification that was used few weeks ago against overseas. so the top comes the pretty much what the case of we had was $160.00. and that was possible we to, for quite a year. now we have a little bit of 300 kilometers. so you understand from 252-8300. it's not that much significant. okay. change. let me, let me jump in and bring in patrick moscow has a very clear line on this saying the us was involved in the use all the time comes these attack missiles which we used in this attack. i patrick,

my question is does the use of these long range attack come systems necessarily mean that there was a certain level of us involvement? quite so. i mean, i think, you know what, this is, of course, given the nature of the conflict in the fact that ukraine is reliance on predominately western but not entirely western or usaid military idea. if of course there's some element there of, of, uh that involvement. and that's just the way it goes. but as the secretary um, the spokesman there, i think it was from the secretary or uh, the department of state said that they gave you grain. these mountains is up to you . brian has a, the targets they choose, and of course there's some intelligence and information support going on uh, the security instructions about how to use the weapons. and the, actually, the interesting thing about this is if this is a, again, like kind of set,

a question mark over the number of casualties, exact nature of what happened. but let's just take the russian an explanation of face value for a moment and say that these cluster munitions were shot then. well, the reason the u. s. has been given ukraine. the cluster version of the attack comes is because they don't want to give them a high explosive version which is much more destructive. and actually depending on the target, much better at heating hardened hardened targets and single single targets. so like if you're just going from one air defense system, rather than a, a load of aircraft on a runway, for example. so conversely, one of the actual things that may come later this could be that the us decide that, you know, we need to give them both kinds of miss solved because an interceptor trust the munition uncle is the same sort of civilian casualties. a puzzle. is it really that significant listening to what a panelist is saying? is it very significant that ukraine is using the long range attack comes in this

conflict, given that it has all the missiles which have even longer ranges? or is it really or is part of at least the targets here a russian space tracking center. does that increase most goes suspicions of us involvement to oh, what would basically be your russian law? i'm coming from be a government coming from president? no. why the more points in there actually is that this is and the american bar that the ukrainians are just proxies that are seniors, the sizes in america, and that russia is basically fighting america. and that's idolized. and the allies are also kind of proxies. and so kind of concentrate in washington dc a that, you know, find a show yet. uh, a line on any kind of conflict of the cold war that you're dealing with,

the americans directly. and the that's the has being well it's, it seems good from internal, but in the propaganda kind of outlook for the 3rd world or the global south to the pressure is not just try doing us more and they may bring nation. but it's, i think, the on like united states that many don't like in the world. so sure kind of where the window basically means that you believe in moscow then that's all the americans that they're running the show. so yes, that's how it is. and that's how it's going to be, it's investment drivers are serious about probably having the, the new post a soviet era is most, go now talking about repercussions. what do you think the kremlin is considering here? a blow right now, i don't know. one of the questions. i mean the, the, the slips there's not that much of

a rush or want to do. it's not going through an american servicemen or american territory on its own. i mean, we're not at that stage whatsoever. i understand the american drama with the blacks. the low may be, if it's a draw on an intercept of an american spot brain, or a british 5 when a that's a bit less likely that have to be sent. this is miss silas to north korea and saying that his response for america sending messages to your brain course that brings rushing into direct confrontation with south korea. and that's also not the very good tension. south korea is a major world, us producer, and they say begin supplying your brain to read through. that won't be good for rush at all. but maybe that will be used to explain why

a rush is going through brand or the supply north korea. all right, patrick, always seeing a friend here of the move it time goes on the more with seeing more sophisticated weaponry deployed by both sides. i think yes, the ones go on. it's a, basically, you're in an innovation competition with your adversary's and you adapt the job and not just drives you. so what the 2nd one more, you know, mazda of technological innovation is very potentially large things happening with digital information. technology is at the moment in a i, uh, we've seen the massive impact that drones are having on more. uh, you know, recent reports suggesting that more soldiers are being killed nearby drones and by are to re bombardment style is if that's proven to be correct, that's transformational to as you're trying to companies on the is driving it was on, on both sides. patrick, i think like, you know, the testing grand thing,

sorry it's vicinity isn't this, you know, like, is it a testing that look, you're going to have you want the best weapons if you're in a follow. yeah, don't you. and therefore, you're going to where you want access to them. and of course the, the, you know, money in more is very expensive and it drives into technological innovation. and when you've got the access to these platforms, you use them, you know, desert on miss out on russia side is you know, an example of this very difficult to shoot dan and highly capable. some of the other russian pieces a kid was being deemed, you know, almost wonder weapons, not proving to be like god at all. um, i think on the other hand, you know, these low tech ad drones are having a massive impact. the low tech light bombs that russia is using, are actually having a very big impact. sent me because they're cheap, you know, and useful of destroying ukraine's our infrastructure energy infrastructure. conversely, you know, i guess the, i guess the, the, the in the morning or the day is new tech doesn't always need to be hired. tech.

new tech can be low tech as well. how to, to what extent can new tech weapons fill the mantel vacuum, especially for ukraine. it is the uh that can be applied to be on as to um, frontier except that is the competition of innovations as well. because before a smattering adds another producer. so the white house does have a 35 years to test something simple because they know in case they are weapons, can prove it is efficient in the battlefield. in ukraine, they will have the owners, they will have the production beacon check if it's working or not. that's why, for example, the k per users, i'm getting calls and things ukrainians asking exactly for testing, keeping the real condition, not of the point of goal is can demonstrate to you the results. as you can have him do. we'll battlefield as the question of time because when you introduce the new type of the technology, for example, the new drawing is different frequency,

different types of the interception. so you have, let's say, was before your columns of parts. well, i'm just trying to call to intercept that. it means that these one lines you have the advantage compared to another side, then definitely another size can crack, for example them, and you need to search for something can you? but that he's not more of the generally called to judge the manpower. it's also the question of the producers. so just getting the old story just because it is working good. so why not? it should be just to use him on the ground. you have the storage if it's cheaper than demolishing what others understand. so that's in the beginning of the world, especially with the jones. they were playing shelf cases when foreign countries were delivering to ukraine. something extremely sophisticated but disappear. it's absolutely ineffective of the battle field. so the producers needed to see the same from this crash. what to do? white was on the know each of these producers can come either to work together with ukraine and military want to test or to propose because of the countries when

they're now coming out of the defense prayers around the world. one of the 1st question they're asking has a chance to add in ukraine, or have you try that in the real battlefields conditions? otherwise, it is like nice for the museum or for your advertisement, but it is best for your defense, a puzzle along with a, with a shift in weaponry. always thing, perhaps a shift in targets in tactics. you know, on the one hand ukraine hitting the power into russian territory and recent weeks, the russians increasing that focus in their tax on ukraine's energy set to as well, which is the measure, the grid. and there's a sector already for 2 years. uh, the recently that was in that yes, the as being the trying to knock it down. then there is success there. yes. but the ukraine is still functioning not on the state,

but also to defense industry is also still working actually. but most of the problems that are used on the battlefield then we charge specific very specific for this contract. and the novelty, the mass use of j t brown is producing itself right now. and that's a big change in the battlefield. we find is also right now, why what russia has from the very beginning, the capability to be deeply direction. 3rd street, also mostly using self may, as rather primitive grows, but still be managed to hip precisely to, after 2 more to choose, ask me to, i'm a jersey been to russia. and that's was not with the american technology that say the original american involvement and saved the guidance system a bad way. there were seem to be some kind of set or still they are most likely are believe commercial, van mo, actually use the, this is

a very specific war. it's a warm itself and the, actually, the tractor use there is not very new at all. you pay to move, you get the gas $16.00 fighters because the european nations there of not having them, they're replacing the do americans, ester defies. those are fighters and those they don't play the housing over to you . free of the attack mc or unless a massage or else the americans replacing now. so the pain is getting weapons that the sub row maybe age old and or not to really be cutting page. so i'm says that that's what the score is going to reflect on future wars got around of the page. rewards will be the same. most likely they will find us to be happening. there are very important for everyone, every move during the world. okay, let me bring patrick in and,

and can we look at the target of the licensed attack and crime in a space tracking center as part of a pattern of escalating targets and tactics here? i mean, that serves us in west an interest beyond just the conflict in ukraine is the suggestion, way, hearing i think the conflicts and you know, morris tend to pull to the extremes. this is kind of on the place. it's a serious set and the longer they go on, the longer they pulled to the extremes. and so i think we're starting to see increased vertical escalation. so sorry, are as on the less connections rather than vertical escalation. so it's moving across and i think and this example is potentially an indication real fast that that it, it, the conflict is spreading horizontally at i don't read into it much more than that though. and i think that parmesan did escalation is happening on both sides and it spreading. and we've seen that as a result, you know,

resulting in increasing cooperation with russia and around russia and north korea and to a lesser extent, but also an important china. and we're seeing it very, you know, how as honestly escalate in terms of the ukraine is possible just right. the said, the development of their own, indigenous deep stride capability against russian and find refineries. and i'm not that horizontal escalation is boring, but hopefully it can be contained um, but yeah, that's how i'm what it is. it's all right, so progressions, honda, how wondering is it? i mean, in the sense that the mold, the targets and the western re escalate, the move of russia will escalate its weaponry and targets. is that a concern in ukraine? about whether you can re crank and ready to keep up in this game to and i our survey questions, do you seeing that those conditions to most of the top us level, if you follow the number,

all the error rates and the air attacks that ukraine has per jay and the number of the charges and destroyed civilian infrastructure jury per day. well, i'm speaking about per month. i don't know what is more escalation, look at the situation of car key and the 2nd biggest city. what i think is the vision sun. how would it not be? nuclear weapons, ultimately? new m o for nuclear weapons the times like you know, that drug and walter from the cartridge and the russians realize as to the that is to tell people that a lot of countries, especially those who don't have any. yeah. well, for us, predominant be afraid, because nobody use it, it's up to the 2nd world war and nobody knows what the result. but let's be critical thinking. if russia will, you doesn't buy the taxi code because it's tricky to uh, it's against the rise with tax because no k a well fans. first of all, that means that partial totally lost with the conventional bachelors because they understand that when they use the new kind of tactical weapons,

they wouldn't lose even chinese support. china can allow, what are these word because the over they are going to america move or because they don't warn. so the tool and the one of the parts china can involved because it's a comic interest or selling a annual display of parts. but nuclear issue is very crucial for china and without child support for russia, it will be very difficult at the international arena, probably those times when russian, okay, every tory crowns cost, that was exactly b, g with o cube difficulties in production regarding these are lucky nuclear they were very strong and street for most people don't use it and don't over use the rhetoric underway, north korea, iran and others will use it as well as possible. all we witness thing. i think this may be what patrick was referring to and he talks about how the conflict is spreading horizontally. all we witnessing perhaps new strategies,

new approaches emerging in recent weeks. you know, russia sending warships to cuba, signing an alliance agreement with north korea or just not too long ago, we had the french president, indicating the dispatch of weston troops to crane. well, couldn't be ruled out. so i think the way he put it as well. yes, there is an escalation, there's, there's, there's an escalation in the wording. russia has become using very extensively to break my share of the back of balancing on the brink of renew, where partially talking about. but a lot of that, a such tactics developed in the 1st is 1st by the americans, the term big midship was, according by john foster dulles. then it's so fluid you too much tactic. but it's the results are always limited. for russia use a before most,

which was coming from former president the tremendous ages that didn't work at all . now it's the booking about about the same thing that this is possible to look about changing the russian new, where doctrines adoptions, russia will be, or not be where used when they're making the real decisions. and actually moving from the threats to going over the new players threshold into new where usage. well, that's uh and then more misstep. and i don't think that we are right now. they are a dual trial. now it's going to continue as it is, i would say, all right, i think we've got a minute less. i'm going to find bring patrick in very briefly. so how seriously should we take, whether it's russian statements in the parliament about altering the nuclear dumped from protocols all want the kremlin spokes person to meet 2 pests of just set off to this a tank about when he referred to the russian presidents earlier comments. this month about aman, conch phrase,

to strike weston countries. yeah. and the idea of sort of extending again. uh, horizontally, uh the, the, the conflict. uh, that's more likely than the new kids are staying at the moment. of course, i agree. it popular. i think we're, thankfully a little bit away from there locally does better mines than me and better systems that we have at our disposable, looking at russian new uniforms, readiness, and really ultimately, and the russians. notice that everyone else knows that it is the readiness of those voices and the steps that they go through, which tell us whether we are close to a serious escalation or not. and luckily, be as far as i'm understood, understand we've never got really beyond sort of 2 thirds of the way to the us uses to teach it and you get a forces in this conflict and the processes with which they would go through. so that's what you look for. don't listen to don't listen to what people are saying. unfortunately, you just look up both ready and hopefully what we look at, let's hope the picture gets better for people, especially civilians and all of that region. that's thing called guests, right?

now how the shallowest patrick theory and travel fell going, how i'm thank you to for watching. you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website out. is there a dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com. forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x o handled. there is a inside story from me. so i may say that on the whole team for now is good by the the latest news as it breaks, that is really military has been forced to stop locating a blockade on the gauze of rep, severely limit exam. 3 of defense sold goods with detailed coverage, human rights organizations have well come the u. s. decision to place as well on the list of countries that violates children's rights from the ha. so the story,

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