the hello, we have seen really heavy rain recently into central and southern parts of china and see the menu from here. just standing its way out towards shanghai. pushing a little further east was just a system just drags its way out into the north west pacific and see pulses of heavier rain coming into central parts. i swear the heaviest rain will be good rest of the showers to the south of that weather, just clipping the far south of south korea and pushing across into q. she for the stay fraud. i say it's not what's the weather with the risk of flooding? the likelihood of some flooding, it's a southern pulse of home. she's heading over towards turkey. what, whether the edge of stretching his way back across those central, as you can see, how st merrier, plowed, and ranges all the way over into the bay have been go, we have got the monsoon brains. now, why don't truly setting across a good pos of india, but they all the lagging. i the tools that northeast and cold of the blue line

shows where the actual monsoon reins of it fact said quite a lot, just stones pushing across into a much of a dash, some heavier. right. hey, orange warning, same for us as a result of that. the width of weather will be down the west than gas, but you can see one way of whatsoever unless heat for the day. there is no channel that covers world news like we do. we revisit places the state houses are really invested in that and that's a privilege. as a journalist of the us, smith, owls 5 by ukraine, kill sunday those including children on the beach in crimea. moscow rooms, washington, it will respond both sides on escalating weapons and targets and the ukraine. so is there a greater danger of direct conflict between russian knights of this is inside story, [000:00:00;00]

the hello and welcome to the show. i'm assigned these a them furious reaction from moscow to the latest the time by ukraine on russian held crime in american made attack comes weapons 5 by ukranian forces were intercepted by russian defences, but the debris killed civilians on the beach, including children, russia, some of the us and best of the end is vowing to retaliate. thousands of attacks have been carried down to more than 2 years of war between ukraine and russia. the consequences have been devastating for civilians all round. both sides have been using the most advanced weaponry available in the war. so how has ministry technology evolved during the conflict?

most of the risk of outright war between russia in the west? we'll be discussing this with guess shortly. but 1st, this report from laura han for a moment to grieve, instead of still full with flowers late to make 6 memorial for victims of ukrainian missile attack. this was the movement on sunday when a trip to the beach for jose make has turned into a terrifying ordeal. debris from high precision guided missiles, raving down on the sand in crimea, scattering those who'd come from relaxation no to which safety. several people, including children, were killed. many of those who wounded the tutor from our kindergarten has suffered . we were on the beach. when all of this happens, it is an unbearable pain. choose most goose, some of the us and boss of the what's it called about barrack attack saying it's provided you train the technology, guidance,

and training the ukraine launch 5 us supplied to tech and most me. so i was plus the munitions oh flight missions were introduced by the us experts based on the us sites such a light in the us says it's no secret to provide to the weapons, but it's up to ukraine, how to use them. we provide weapons to ukraine, so it can defend its sovereign territory against our regression. that includes in crimea, which of course is part of ukraine and russia could stop this war today. us began supplying ukraine short range attack and missiles last year. 2 months ago. it's still to supply longer range versions which can hit target up to $300.00 columbus has. but let's say the us also supporting russia in other ways. the very start of this for the united states and the number of allied countries has been

saying that they will continue to supply military intelligence, photo recognizance, satellite imagery, a to the ukraine. the dark horse. russia is also relying more heavily on a bumps weapons. ukraine's, as most goes, been using hypersonic missiles in major cities including the capsule, kids. this includes their con, hypersonic missile rejects, but se traveled at 9 times the speed of sound and is nearly impossible to shoots down. present inside you may appears in have disclosed russian forces have use these of a hypotonic miss solve against military infrastructure. russia has because it will retaliate against the service stuff will be to talk with the west funding ukraine, more funds, wesson's, and most also of missing to using the money i could send the world is going on for more than 2 years. may now be entering

a new and more dangerous space stores on the inside story out to 0. the well, that's spring. and i guess now we have joining us from ukraine in odessa. honda shala's, she's director of the security studies program at ukrainian prism that's a foreign policy and security think tank from moscow. pavel file going to how an independent russian defense analyst and in boston, the united kingdom, patrick theory, is a defense and security analyst at the university of boss and for my profession on the office so well, welcome to all of i could start with hannah. how significant is it hannah, that we are now seeing ukraine use long go range, attack combust files in this for 1st of all, i would like to respond to some of the comments made in the initial video because it's been quite

a money palatial. we don't have the approved that the debrief from the ukranian shoot me science. there are plenty of reduce demonstrated in the russian social networks that there will be in russian a. it depends that working appropriately, not speaking that there were no in range. so people were not even notified considering the they're at the beach, which has jobs they wrapped in near the military base sound that's being very well known as cranium. people are very annoyed now with the local authorities and that they allow such situations. and uh, let me jump in there though and say we have seen comments from ukrainian officials like advise me, kyla positive eoc cooling civilians in this crimea attack quote, civilian occupies, it does sound like the ukrainians recognize that there was civilian casualties. it's not a justification for it. you know, i don't know how you translate police report at all,

so that's why we most come out. but the ukrainian statements be left very clear. that's russian 8th grade near a military, right? the when the basis almost in each village close most of the beaches for the last 10 years. and that is a very well known because they made oldest notification. you can see the photos from you for totally a beach full of the shooting grand just and prepared stations, the brothers to come spending just on the beaches. they were presenting this coordinate so much militarized. so the fox or if you a militarize in the recreational those you want this task that you're bringing the military sergeant just very close to the civilians. that's why uh, that is quite a serious question, but even the new site was going against the military. oh, just in case your and your friends is worth taking appropriate place that is to jeopardize. busy the likes and the civilian and the front of him. fortunately, we have the civilian cause realities. but just few weeks ago we had absolutely the same situation in my seat. you

a whole dresser. when the cross stormy style cluster munitions, i am co, russia is to say i just the beach recreationally deal with thousands people killed as the but nobody called it as the escalation or something like these. and these to return back about the longer i won't say that suddenly we receive something different from what we have because of great older depart here i using storm shadonia style from the united kingdom was 215 kilometers raised. we him, me. so i was a guess coordinator that is ukrainian made with the 280 kilometer and not even longer than your modification that was used few weeks ago against the overseas. so the top comes the pretty much what this in case of we had was $160.00. and that was possible we do for quite a year. now we have a little bit of 300 kilometers. so you understand from to, candice 528300. it's not that much significant. okay. change. let me, let me jump in and bring in patrick moscow has

a very clear line on this saying the us was involved in the use all the time comes these attacks and missiles which we used in this attack. patrick, my question is, does the use of these long range attack come systems necessarily mean that there was a certain level of us involvement? quite so. i mean, i think, you know what, this is, of course, given the nature of the conflict and the fact that ukraine is reliance on predominately western but not entirely western or usaid military idea of of course there's some element there is of the involvement. and that's just the way it goes. but as the secretary um, the spokesman there, i think it was from the secretary or the department of state said that they gave you grain. these mountains is up to you. brian has a, the targets they choose. and of course,

there's some intelligence and information support going on uh, the security instructions about how to use the weapons. and the, actually, the interesting thing about this is if this is a, again, like kind of set, a question mark over a number of casualties. exact nature of what happened, but let's just take the russian an explanation of face value for a moment and say that these cluster munitions were shot down. well, the reason the u. s. has been given ukraine. the cluster version of the attack comes is because they don't want to give them a high explosive version which is much more disruptive. and actually depending on the target, much better at heating, hardens hardened targets and single single targets. so like if you're just going from one air defense system, rather than a, a load of aircraft on a runway, for example. so conversely, one of the actual things that may come later this could be that the us decide that, you know, we need to give them both kinds of miss solved because an interceptor trust the

munition uncle is the same sort of civilian casualties. a puzzle. is it really that significant listening to what a panelist is saying? is it very significant that ukraine is using the long range attack comes in this conflict, given that it has all the missiles which have even longer ranges? or is it really or is part of at least the targets here a russian space tracking center. does that increase most goes suspicions of us involvement to oh, well, basically the russian law, i'm coming from be a government coming from president. now why the more fortunate they're actually is that this is and the american bar that do you agree games or just prophecies that are in use, the sizes in america and that russia is basically fighting america and the child eyes. and the allies are also kind of boxes and,

and so kind of concentrate in washington dc. a that's now find a show yet. uh, a line on any kind of conflict of the cold war that you're dealing with, the americans directly. and the that's the has being well, it should seems good from internal the propaganda kind of outlook for the 3rd world or the global south to the pressure is not just try getting us more and they, they bring nation. but it's 5 thing of the on like united states that many don't like in the world. so sure kind of when basically your money that you believe in moscow then that's all the americans that they're running the show. so yes, that's how it is. and that's how it's going to be, it's investment drivers are serious about having the, the new post a soviet era is most, go now talking about repercussions. what do you think the kremlin is considering

here? a blow right now, i don't know on, on the questions. i mean the, the, the slips there's not that much of a rush or just want to do a top barn door. american servicemen are american territory on its own. i mean, we're not at that stage whatsoever. i understand the american drama with the blacks the low. maybe. if it's a draw on an intercept of an american spot brain, or a british 5 when a that's a bit less likely. and that's the reason this is miss silas to north korea and saying that as response for america sending messages to your brain course that brings rushing into direct confrontation with south korea. and that's also not the very good sanction. south korea is a major world. us producer and they say begin supplying your brain to read through

. that won't be good for rush at all, but maybe that will be used to explain why a rush is buying the brand or the supply. no story. yeah. all right, patrick, always seeing a friend here of the move it time goes on the more with seeing more sophisticated weaponry deployed by both sides. i think yes, the ones go on. it's a, basically, you're in an innovation competition with your adversary's and you adapt the job and not just drives you. so what the 2nd one more, you know, mazda of technological innovation is very potentially large things happening with digital information. technology is at the moment in a, on a we've seen the massive impact that drones are having on more. uh, you know, recent reports suggesting that more soldiers are being killed nearby drones and by our to re bombardment style is if that's proven to be correct. that's

transformational to as you trying to companies on the way things on, on both sides. patrick, i think like, you know, the testing grand thing. so, i mean, it's big. cindy, isn't this, you know, like, is it a testing that look, you're going to have, you want the best weapons if you're in a follow. yeah, don't you. and therefore you're going to where you want access to them. and of course, that the, you know, money in more is very expensive and it drives into technological innovation. and when you've got the access to these platforms, you use them, you know, desert on miss out on russia side is you know, an example of this very difficult to shoot dan and highly capable. some of the other russian pieces a kid was being deemed, you know, almost wonder weapons, not proving to be like god at all. um, i think on the other hand, you know, these low tech ad drones are having a massive impact. the low tech light bombs that russia is using, are actually having a very big impact. sent me because they're cheap, you know,

and useful of destroying ukraine's our infrastructure energy infrastructure. conversely, you know, i guess the, i guess the, the, the in the morning or the day is new tech doesn't always need to be hired. tech. new tech can be low tech as well. how to, to what extent can new tech weapons fill the manpower vacuum, especially for ukraine. it is the account. good pleasure to be on as to um, frederick, sad. that is the competition of innovations as well because before and smattering as another producer. so the warehouse does have the 35 years to test something simple because they know in case they are weapons, can prove it. is officials in the battlefield in ukraine. they will have the owners, they will have the production beacon check if it's working or not. that's why, for example, the k per users, i'm getting calls and things ukrainians asking exactly for testing, keeping the real conditions, not of the point of goal is can demonstrate to you the results as you can have him

do. we'll battlefield as the question of time because when you introduce the new type of the technology, for example, the new drawing is different frequency, different types of the interception. so you have, let's say, was before your columns of parts. well, i'm just trying to call to intercept that. it means that this one wants you have the advantage compared to another side, then definitely another size can crack, for example them, and you need to search for something can you? but that he's not more of the general, it's called the, just the manpower. it's also the question of the producers. so just getting the old story just because it is working good. so why not? it should be just to use him on the ground. you have the storage if it's cheaper than demolishing what others understand. so that's in the beginning of the world, especially with the drawings they were playing shelf cases when foreign countries were delivering to ukraine. something extremely sophisticated but disappear. it's absolutely ineffective of the battle field. so the producers needed to see the same from this crash. what to do?

white was on the know each of these producers can come either to work together with ukraine and military want to test or to propose because of the countries when they're now coming out of the defense prayers around the world. one of the 1st question they're asking has a chance to add in ukraine, or have you try that in the real battlefields conditions? otherwise, it is like nice for the museum or for your advertisement, but it is best for your defense, a puzzle along with a, with a shift in weaponry. always seeing perhaps a shift in targets in tactics. you know, on the one hand ukraine hitting the power into russian territory and recent weeks, the russians increasing that focusing their attacks on ukraine's energy set to as well, which has to be measured the grid. and there's a sector already for 2 years. uh, the recently that was in that yes,

the as being the trying to knock it down. then there is success there. yes. but the ukraine is still functioning, not on the state, but also the defense industry is also still working actually. but most of the pounds that are used on the battlefield. then we charge specific very specific breakfast conflict in the novelty. the mass hughes of j t brown is producing itself right now. and that's a big change in the battlefield. we find is also right now why what russia has from the very beginning, the capability to be deep in direction. 3rd street, also mostly using self may rather primitive grounds, but still be managed to hip precisely to, after 2 more to choose, ask me to, i'm a jersey been to russia. and that's was not with the american technology that say the original american involvement and saved the guidance system

a bad way. there were seem to be some kind of set or still they are most likely are believe commercial, van mo, actually use the, this is a very specific war. it's a warm itself and the actually the treasury use there is not very new at all. you play the movie, you get the gas 16 fighters because the european nations there, and it's typing them. they're replacing, the new american ester defies. those are fighters and those they don't play the housing over to you. free of the attack mc or unless a massage or else to america's replacing now. so the pain is getting weapons that the sub row maybe age old and or not to really be cutting edge. so i would say that that's what the score is going to reflect on future wars got around of the page. rewards will be the same. most likely they will

find us. these are happening. there are very important for everyone, every move during the world. okay, let me bring patrick in and, and can we look at the target of the licensed attack and crime, the space tracking center, as part of a patent of escalating targets and tactics here. i mean, that serves us in west an interest beyond just the conflict in ukraine is the suggestion, way, hearing i think the conflicts and you know, morris tend to pull to the extremes, is as kind of on the place. it's a serious set and the longer they go on, the longer they pulled to the extremes. and so i think we're starting to see increased vertical escalation. so sorry, are as on the less connections rather than vertical escalation. so it's moving across and i think, and this example is potentially an indication real fast, that, that it, it, the conflict is spreading horizontally at,

i don't read into it much more than that though. and i think that and power as onto escalation is happening on both sides and it's spreading. and we've seen that as a result, you know, resulting in increasing cooperation with russia and around russia and north korea and to a lesser extent, but also an important china. and we're seeing it very, you know, how as honestly escalate in terms of the ukraine is possible just right. the said, the development of their own, indigenous deep stride capability against russian and find refineries. and i'm not that horizontal escalation is boring, but hopefully it can be contained. and right. yeah, that's how i'm what it is. it's all right, so progressions, honda, how wondering is it? i mean, in the sense that the mold, the targets and the weaponry escalate. the move of russia will escalate its weaponry and target is

a concern in ukraine about whether you can re crank and ready to keep up in this game to and i our survey questions, do you seeing that those conditions to most of the top us level, if you follow the number of the air range and the air attacks that ukraine has per, jay, and the number of the charges destroyed civilian in her structured jury per day. we are speaking about per mom's. i don't know what is more escalation, look at the situation of car q and the 2nd biggest c t. what i think is the vision sun. how would it not be? nuclear weapons, ultimately new m o for nuclear weapons the times like you know, that drug and walter from the cartoons and rushes realizes to the bat is to tell people that a lot of countries, especially those who don't have any. yeah, well for us, predominant be afraid because nobody used to, it's up to the 2nd world war and nobody knows what are the results. but let's be critical thinking. if russia will, you doesn't buy the taxi code because it's tricky to uh,

it's against the rise with tax because no k a well fans. first of all, that means that partial totally lost with the conventional efforts, because they understand that when they use the new kind of tactical weapon is they won't lose even chinese support. china can allow, what are these word because the over there on to america mood or because they don't ward. so the tool and the, one of the parts china cannon balls because it's a comic interest or selling a annual display of parts. but nuclear issue is very crucial for china and without child support for russia, it will be very difficult at the international arena. probably those times when russian. okay, every tori was kaiser. that was exactly b, g with o kids difficulties in profession regarding this fucking nuclear. they were very strong and street from us. go don't use it and don't over use. the rhetoric underway, north korea, iran and others will use it as well as possible. all we witness thing,

i think this may be what patrick was referring to and he talks about how the config it's spreading horizontally. all we witnessing perhaps new strategies, new approaches emerging in recent weeks. you know, russia sending warships to cuba, signing of the lines agreement with north korea or just not too long ago, we had the french president, indicating the dispatch of weston troops to crane. well, couldn't be ruled out. so i think the way he put it as well, yes, there is an escalation there's, there's, there's an escalation and the wording, russia has become using very extensively to break my share of the back of balancing on the bank or when you were partially talking about. but a lot of that such tactics developed in the 1st is 1st by the americans, the term big midship was coined by john foster dulles. then it's, it's,

it's legitimate tactics. but it's the results are always limited for russia used before most which was coming from former president, the tremendous ages that didn't work at all. now it's the booking about the same thing that this is possible to look about changing the russian new, where doctrines adoptions, russia will be, or not be where used when they're making the real decisions. and actually moving from the threats to going over the new per semester. so the new where usage. well, that's uh and then more misstep and i don't think that we are right now. they are a dual trial. now it's going to continue as it is. i would say, all right, i think we've got a minute less. i'm going to find, bring patrick in very briefly. so how seriously should we take, whether it's russian statements in the parliament, about altering the nuclear dunc from protocols all want the kremlin spokes person to meet to pass comp. just set off to this

a tank about when he referred to the russian president's earlier comments this month about aman conk phrase to strike weston countries. yeah. and the idea of sort of extending again, uh, horizontally, uh, the, the, the conflict. uh, that's more likely than the newsletter thing at the moment. of course, i agree. it popular. i think we're thankfully a little bit away from there locally. that's better minds than me and better systems that we have. what are disposable, looking at russian new get, affords readiness, and really, ultimately, and the russians know this, then everyone else knows that it is the readiness of those voices and the steps that they go through, which tell us whether we are close to a serious escalation or not, and luckily be as far as i'm understood, understand we've never got really beyond sort of 2 thirds of the way to the us is uses to teach it and you get a forces in this conflict and the processes with which they would go through. so that's what you look for. don't listen to don't listen to what people are saying.

unfortunately, you just look up both ready and hopefully what we look at, let's hope the picture gets back to, for people, especially civilians and all of that region. that's thing called guests right now, kind of show us patrick theory and couple fell going how and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x l handled. there is a inside story from me. so i may say that on the whole team for now is good, fine the

the you what you all just bear with me. so robin in the hall, reminder of all the top stories which he leeks on the june in a solemn, just return to his home country australia. as a free man, he pleaded guilty to a charge of espionage under plato with the us sending a 14 year battle against expedition. agreements ends washington acceptance to prosecute his own for revealing government secrets about the rules. and i've got his son and iraq, australia, and probably minutes the daisy spect movements after sounds landed. a objective

here was to conclude, these matters that had been concluded, that being concluded in