is a totally grateful full i think it's quite unique that it got people together from, from all sides to work towards julian's freedom. but his homecoming was challenged by some last night was greeted by the startling prime minister in some type of he rise. i'm coming welcome. that's not the top of stain did the reality is that mr. massage is committed. these crimes, this d west has also been critical for each writing that assigned full lives at risk when he liked hundreds of thousands of classified documents for my former intelligence soldier about the rules in a book and it's gonna stay in a sanchez legal team has denied this and is beginning the process of requesting a presidential pardon as a mattress or the international legal case comes to a close. so i'm just lawyers to their attention to high profile with of low as the voice recent amend sentence for publishing details of alleged australia will crimes

. and it's got us to and i didn't know the whose case is due before the courts accused of releasing classified information from the australian tax office. julian assigned loved by some loads by others. a fig get whose complex legacy will shape the spice, the media, freedom in the use to come. daniel robinson out to 0 camera, heavy rains are set of lance low as in the north west in columbia, and department of um, tlc. yes, the month signs, dumbest homes and don't try 7 people reported to be missing a $75.00 units. roy, good dollars. it's a serious situation. loss is mass movements. many lance slides we will be providing support until tomorrow. so that everyone in a joke. yeah. is okay. so we the weekend to pick this was that was, indigenous communities have taken posts and a march advocating for the demo cation of that special lines try to lead is urging the government to officially knowledge the territories and say,

stop them against unlawful mining. and the only recognizes loud is that what inhabited by indigenous communities when results called succession, was established in 1980 s 600 looks, it all works with 60000000 heroes have been were petrosage from the us. it's lee. many of the objects had been altered and were intended for trafficking or sail. yeah, it works now and display at the central institute for restoration in mine. i mean to see best gab democrats, they clicked on to comment. we have sensational cases like the works that was stolen from them. is that the game of palmer or this scope to behind me that is heather mystic, bruns and very few hellenistic bronzes have survived in history. okay, that's that to me. my name's side. this continues up, the bottom line, the i'm, i'm just gonna show we got some feet above that. but i'm gonna do it live on,

come funny enough for the police left behind us to black essential workers share their experiences of racism in the u. k. replaced by the end of a point where they've done breakfast well and showed the way black. it was on the weathering on that jersey. oh hi. i'm steve clements and i have a question. what if there is no day after in israel's war on gaza? let's get to the bottom line. the last in the health scape it is real has created in gothic is one simple fact. even if there is a ceasefire, there is no way for life to go back to normal for the 2000000 plus palestinians who lived there. the world bank now estimates that it would take almost $20000000000.00 to rebuild guys that to what it was before the war, which was wilfully insufficient anyway. but of course,

it's not about the money. we're talking about an entire population with no access to housing, jobs, health, education, we're getting basic food, water and electricity depends on the ups and downs of is really government coalition partners. and forget about personal safety and security. we're talking about a place that's been forced to become totally dependent on outside aid for decades become. so is this the new normal regatta? today we're talking with political science as nathan brown, professor of international affairs at george washington university, and currently a fellow at the hamburg institute for advanced study in germany. dr. brown. thank you so much for joining us. let me just start out with questions about the day after in gaza and you written pretty compellingly. then maybe the plan all along was not to think about the day after and gauze, at least for me it is really perspective. tell us what you meant. a sure, i mean, i think from the beginning israel has been fighting a different war than the americans have thought they have been fighting. the

israelis went in with some very, very ambitious, but pretty vague. war aids about destroying cub bass as military and governing capability. but it's clear what that meant, what something a little bit more ambitious than ongoing, than what the americans had in mind. the americans would look at this and say, how we've seen this before. this is what we did, new rock, this is what we didn't have. can is that where we went in with a plan for fighting and winning the war, but not thinking about what happened afterwards. and that assumed that there was going to be a clear into the military phase and then a beginning of a civilian reconstruction phase. and i don't think these really have ever thought that way. they've thought in terms of, you know, what they did, there's a term forever which is used in a negative way. but these really stopped. they weren't for her war that this was not something that would ever be finally resolved. they weren't looking, say, as united states did in iraq to say, let's fix this and go home and it's,

we're here for life. this is just what the hand we've been dealt with and this population in gaza is unmanageable. and the idea that we could go. ready in and permanently fixed it and then leave and forget about it is just not in the cards. so this is going to be an ongoing military conflict that will have different phases and different degrees. but it's not as if it's going to have a clear and what you're saying is so important and it actually didn't hit me until i read your article. most of us have been talking about a linear process. so linear, you know, october 7th happened. israel responded, we thought there would be an action moment and then an after action moment and then the world would come back and rebuild with the good guys in, in, in palestine essentially, you know, and kind of resolve all of this. that linearity has been overwhelmingly part of the i would call the international discourse on this. would you say something very different? and if you writes that he is released from the very beginning, knew that this would include massive dislocation of gases population for an

undefined period, significant destruction of infrastructure and the elimination of those you in bodies that it providing education other social services. regardless, all of the things that you laid out that said is real, was very aware it would be doing, are being defined, potentially as ingredients of genocide increasing as of war crimes and readings of ethnic cleansing by the rest of the world. am i getting this right? oh, absolutely. i mean, i think that it was clear from the beginning that what is real had in mind was a sort of was, was this a scale of military action that would have 4 or 5 people if they knew what was involved on october 8th. and in fact, you even had some early statements from is really saying we have essentially an international blank check for now. that's going to run out at some point when people realized the scale of what is going on. so do you think that is real? has any n game in mind now?

or do you believe that this blur of what looks like atrocities from others is the in game will, is really, is a complicated place and different is railways have different games in mind. i think for the far right, which is influential that i'm talking about. people like got been to be honest motors. these are people who are in the cabinet up under really the extreme right. the in the game is a wednesday between the jordan river and the mediterranean sea, which is a jewish state. and any palestinian who wants to live there as a guest is welcome to do so, but they'll never be in full citizen. that's an extreme position it but they made clear wouldn't be so bad of palestinians and guy that just took up and left and and, and as i say, that's an extreme position but it, it, they are part of the government. i think for somebody like netanyahu, your use the expression we're going to get rid of the bad guys and put in the good guys. there are no good guys for him. and so it's not as if he's talking about mass

expulsions like that. like like it's hard, right? blink is, but he's thinking we're just, we've got to be there. and again, they were fairly clear statements from the beginning that they will have to be, you know, israel, the way they would put it is really responsible for its own security and gaza. meaning we're there forever. that doesn't necessarily mean all we occupation like the west bank, but it means we go and we do whatever we will perhaps be a we have to do whenever we feel we have to do it. and that's essentially an ongoing and, and in depth. and it is really military presence in gaza. we've seen recently an interesting kind of tension inside israel, and i'd be loved your comments and that one, you know, benny and stepping out of the work cabinet. we've actually seen this really military tried to enact and say they're going to enact humanitarian pauses so that aiden relief can get in to people. i need to remind audience those people, many of these people are innocent. people and innocent victims caught in a vice here in this moment. ok,

and you see is really cabinet officials coming out in the slamming the is really military for humanitarian gestures. and this is all happening in broad daylight, broad visibility overtly. and i'm just sitting years. why, oh, i mean, who needs a court, international court of justice when it's actually happening? but your thoughts on some of the internal is really tensions that seems to be bubbling to the surface as well. you know, the yeah, there's just a british idea of collective cabinet responsibility, which is never really sucking very deeply among is really a cabinets. it's there they, they, they. busy after each other and public criticizing each other and public criticize a decision that the cabinet voted on the day before if they, if they voted against the league like crazy and so, and as a result, we have a pretty good idea of the arguments that are going on i, i made reference the board to the extreme, right, which says this is a jewish state and a jewish state, only guess a welcome as long as they're peaceful and, and then they can yahoo,

basically what i would say is sort of center right down is really terms, which basically says there will be no palestinian. the state will deal with palestinians in terms of local communities and so on, but, but not as a national entity. and then welcome to run their own schools and pick up their own trash and right. doing parking tickets, but for serious issues it's going to be is really state and control. and then there's also what i would call kind of the, the, the 6 is really security establishment. and they are looking at this probably a little bit closer to the american position. they're not necessarily way into it to. ready pollution, in fact they're skeptical of it, but they say look, we've got a working relationship with a palestinian authority. we may not like them. the are the authorities in ramallah . but with that security coordination with them, we've got a very close security relationship with united states. we don't want to mess that up. so there tend to be a little bit more, i would say,

conscious and was possible in the game as, as, as the americans would see them. and that's a real context. and of course there's a left wing in israel that says, palestinians are national community, we've got to come to terms with them as a nation. and they are basically marginalized right now. they're there, but they don't pull well. uh, they don't have anybody in the cabinet. they don't have that many voices, and it's really public like that left way, which it goes. things that are similar to what the bike and ministration is saying is at this point, pretty weak. do you think that this notion that you just shared that maybe uh, it's really prime minister netanyahu and others have that there will never be a palestinian state that they'll figure out some structure. you wrote about this in your article bill subcontract to some palestinians to take care of those daily life needs. i'm just wondering, is that realistic in any sense? how would that work? am i missing something here or is that is the equation design?

never to be solved to i think and again it's, it's done isn't, is not my equation, but i'll try to present it sympathetically from i think a new really point of view that's, that's the hand they've been dealt with. no, it's not going to be solved. it can be managed, but it can be solved. so how do you manage it? well, it looks a little bit like what's going on in the west bank right now where you have this week palestinian authority, you have pallets and the security forces that coordinate with the, with, with israel and the palestinian authority doesn't like it. the pellets and security forces don't really like it. these they're, they're, they're, they're really low by considerable portions of the population is you're just sub contracting for these really occupation. but it's the only way to keep the, the little islands of palestinian autonomy alive. so i think that might be the model for them. one which these rallies have security control. again, they go where they want to do what they want whenever they want. but they have workable arrangements with local leaders and you know, as the power as a new story,

the westbank collapses. that might mean look a war. busy or that might mean a local, locally prominent individual who says, you know, i'll be the interlocutor between people in this village and, and, and, and these really occupation. and maybe you could do something like that. and gaza, which as some of the population is, is, is, is private lives in a lot of tribes. so we go to the private leaders. sometimes there'll be like refugee camps that have their own kind of spontaneously. ringback organize committees will deal with a camp committee, will deal with whoever is in charge, whoever got guns and whoever came in for his order and we'll just make deals with, with, with them to basically give them privileges. give them benefits that they can funnel to bite off part of their population. i mean, what you're really talking about is a kind of managed chaos. in this, you've talked about word lords, i mean this 1st conversation i've had along this line, but you know it's resonating with me. we had a michael hand of the international crisis group on recently

a and michael basically said that the united states and the rest of the world continues to talk about the 2 state solution and an aspiration for that out of desperation. because it can't figure out how to formulate any other potential governance dimension there. and it doesn't want to talk about a somalia on the border of, of israel. what are your personal thoughts on it? i think that's exactly right. if i can give an analogy which might sound a little bit too light hearted american policy, and i would say kind of the general thrust of international diplomacy is a little bit like a cartoon character. and it's run off a cliff and is afraid to live below for fear that it will fall. that's the 2 state solution. it is one that in public, your bite in this ration keeps talking about the european leaders keep talking about it in public, in private. everybody knows that the 2 state solution is not in the car. is

it not in the cards in terms of the real debate? is, is it dead forever or is it just in long term hibernation for decades? but, but the idea that you've been a viable tuesday diplomacy, right now, i don't think any, anybody really believes. but once you accept that, then what are you for from the implications of that? are i think just to distasteful them from a policy point of view. but the trumpet administration, when it was an office, it actually basically came quotes and braces say hey, that's great. will it palestinians have little islands, they can call it a state if they want, but it's not is going to be under is really control. but especially for the democrats. is really, really tough to say that because the next step would be, well, wait a 2nd. if 2 states aren't happening, then what is this thing? this is beginning to look a little bit like apartheid. i think that a word is one that divides the democratic party. it divides generations within the

democratic party, divides the left from kind of the more more disinterest wings in a dry, it divides the more establishment from from, from, from, you know, single sanders wings. and so, and so it is in policy terms and in domestic political terms, just very, very uncomfortable territory to think about what you are right now in germany and your, you know, home base is george washington university down the street were from where i'm filming this, and and on college campuses throughout this country, but also with george washington university. you had in camp minutes, you had young people basically protesting america and the binding ministrations approach to v as real guys a crisis. and also, i should say counter protests a to them, it's been very diverse if i'm interested in what this is doing to united states and in the middle of a presidential contest. and one of the, you know, possibilities in november cuz we don't have a stack deck here in the united states, is that president trump could come back. i could be president biden, this could be

a contributing factor, a to that. and is that something you think is really prime, mister netanyahu is, is, is hoping for counting on trying to design. and if i were to happen, i'd just be interested in your reflections as an american. what is that gonna do? given the divide, we already see in the united states. oh gosh, yeah. so you talked about managed chaos and now you're describing almost unmanaged . chaos. um, so you've let me turn 1st, you know, to, to, to the campus protest. yes, it's very divisive in the united states. you know, when i, when i, when i talk to the sort of students that i have a g, w, this is seen not through the lens of people of, of my generation. and i'll let you know i'm old enough to remember. the 1967 was is not like people from my generation side. but it's really seen almost as a social justice caught a global social justice card. you know, a kid is sort of the cousin of the black lives matter movement at an international level. and that's just not how many people in the older generation see that. so

it's a split up. the democratic party is a fascinating split within the american jewish community. between the older and established generation for which is really absolutely central to american jewish identity. and the younger generation is as, wait, we didn't sign up for this. what are they doing? and i get these decent growth generalizations there. certainly plenty of young jews were very supportive of israel but, but, but this is what you see, what you see playing out of and then germany, i would say you're where, where i am right now you've got similar kinds of debates. also late on top of that is a feeling among german politicians, that for historical reasons which everybody understand. they don't want any daylight between them and israel, they don't want to be seen as a band guard of, of, of, of criticism for israel. and one other thing that i do want to mention is that in college campus demonstrations that have one other interesting effect which didn't get a lot of publicity in the united states. and that is they were,

they got tremendous international attention. you know, i have is really friends as a, i don't want to go to the united states right now. and if i did, i certainly wouldn't feel safe on the campus. and they have this image that, that american campuses are just the zones of your, indistinguishable from buried state university and the other, the palestinian university on the west bank for palestinians, though they certainly see wait a 2nd. the one was ignoring us and all of a sudden, you know, in wash dc, los angeles, people are demonstrating force. it's really, really hard me propellers it to different emotional reactions that depending on, on where you, where you come in. but, but again, american college campuses are the center of attention in large parts of the world. now you asked about trunk and i don't know, and i'm not sure he knows what, what he would do. some of the people who are very much affiliated with sort of that, that trump plan or that the deal of the century, jared question, it might not go back into a trump administration. david friedman,

who was in bassett or to israel, was somebody who was really overly embracing the settler movement. and openly advocating for annexation is really annexation of the westbank. really a one state solution with that one state being israel has made clear he wants to go back in. but his that clarity what so it is, it's a trap in ministration is a little bit of the wild card. there is no hiding the fact that you're planning people in on the, as wally right to say by baptists on october 7th. but since then there's been some problems we wouldn't mind trying our luck with a, a trump administration. but again, nobody knows what trump would actually do in the office. you were as i understand it, president of the middle east studies association and, and for audience movie studies association is really a collection of academics. intellectuals that are thinking about some of these studies, often organized by assume to the american political science. so seizure, other groups like that is the quality of discourse. what it used to be is the

honesty, the ability to communicate, to be open and honest. cuz i, we have been talking a little bit about, you know, the challenges of censorship over some of these discussions that it's also playing out in american society and around the world. i loved your reflections on whether we still have health in something like in the middle east studies association as well. my short answer would be um, debates are pretty trailing public all over the world. and within the middle east studies association, i would say, you know, the real debate is not, is israel guilty of war crimes, but it is a real guilty of genocidal word friends or just other kinds of work. but is it the, the bulk of the membership of the middle east studies association is it would be harshly critical. i mean, i shouldn't say that the bulk, but there are plenty of people who has a more interest city and in medieval poetry or model new miss mastic, rather than israel and palestine by those who are. and i would say that would be

extremely critical, and that of, of, of is related to the question is just on what terms. but there's another point that i think gibson missed. i mean, i sometimes joke then glenn, i'm in germany for the year because i don't speak german and therefore i can't understand what people say to each other. and in a, at a public level, that's true, that just just the, the, the rigidity and the shrillness of the discourse really is it's something that is disheartening to somebody who has been following this for a while in private. i think things are very different when i go into classroom given, i guess what, you're ta edison, a golf core. actually i talked to some of the palestinian demonstrators here in, in the city palmer. and a couple weeks ago, people understand that this is a political moment. it is a horrible moment. and there are forces at work which they don't completely understand. so when you get in private and when people are so posing in order to be pro, this are pro that i think you find an awful lot more new words. and i'm actually

some as gratified by the kinds of discussions you could have in private. so i'm interested in this tension between how we talk about the day after and rebuilding when the task is so gargantuan of what would be needed versus the destination. uh, that's happened in people's lives. and i'm, i love is, is our, you know, final thought here. your thoughts on how we can navigate that conversation better than we are? oh gosh, well, yeah, so the task again material terms is going to be enormous. but to me the task cannot even be get in till you have the political ground work laid. right. so you have rounds of devastation, much less severe than the current one, but you guys used to have an international airport destroyed. there was a port destroyed. and as so the idea of rebuilding and the situation in which there is ongoing violence or the possibility that recurring just doesn't make any sense

anymore. so for me, it's a question of laying a political ground round work for a true reconstruction that allows people to rebuild their lives. and even then, as you say, you've got a deeply traumatized society in, in gaza. the baptist majority of gods and have been made homeless many more than once in the course of the fighting since since since october. and you've got a west bank society that is not subject to that level of violence but is watching other palestinians. and have this happen to them, and they are traumatized you ineffectual as well. there's just a level of despair in palestinian society. there was even before october 7th. i think it was that that made, i'm asked think october's that with windham domestic support, that level of despair. and now i think it's going to be just bottomless. so we're in for a period not simply of, of physical reconstruction, but political reconstruction and even motional and mental health and reconstruction

. that is a task of deal on, on the order of magnitude that we haven't seen in this conflict ever before. and we'll have to leave it there, george washington university. political science as nathan brown. thank you so much for joining us from germany today. thank you. thanks for having me. so what's the bottom line? are we deluding ourselves to think that x number of billions of dollars over x number of years is going to fix and restored gaza? yes, we are. that's just how the international community likes to frame things. every global leader knows you can't replace the schools and the hospitals in the homes and the agriculture of a region that has grown organically for centuries and even millennia. but we don't know how to talk about 20000 orphans or thousands of amputees or how to restore millions of lives. so we talk about what's comfortable and that's concrete and dollars, rather than mothers and sisters, and dads and brothers who were innocent and now are dead, or maimed or homeless and where male nourished. look at the recent 8 conference

that was held in jordan, 3 and a half $1000000000.00 was pledged over 3 years. that's not a marshall plan. that's rebuild white. feel good promises that actually achieve nothing. with full us support. israel is now created a global bleeding ulcer that's going to challenge super powers and nations for decades become. and that's the bottom line, the or what is the effect of the conflict on the environment. the impact of war is so much more than just emissions from tanks ships and will fight more than lose that it has a devastating effect on people. and the the department of defense is emissions is as large as many countries. every time ministry spending increases, military emissions increased, and this war and this climate crisis, all hail the planet on a jersey to the latest news for the findings here could be used by the

international criminal court as further pieces of evidence of israel's war crimes and gaza with detailed coverage, most of the 36 hospitals in golf will have been destroyed. i'm just going to go health cause the main and accessible from the house of the story. the images from jeanine are part of the overall picture and the occupied westbank for violence is rarely, military raids are relentless for 30 years. friends carry down nuclear tests in the pacific, exposing local the search workers to high levels of radiation. $11.00 east investigate the ongoing for lots of nuclear tests in french polynesia, the pacific forgotten nuclear victims on which is 0. hospitals are filled with people suffering from respiratory diseases that doctors have only one word of advice. evacuate alpha and traumatic a man of the font size checking alters indonesia has become the world's largest

palm or the export or in the past 2 decades, much of the forest land was clear using fire the lift to high for the price. and this is, it's like we are in the war but that's also the time where i decided to take this seriously. the, we cannot wait for someone come to help us. but the me ask you the what is the i comes to see also that the 1st patient who was the biggest threat to power, wait, apply the voices of the people who so the, for us as a way of making money. there's so much loaded and new forces, so to people who live in it,

when it came to len hughes as the indigenous people of the island. we were not part of the conversation. the good and good president, william bruce owen, his economic policies refuses to dive down on the streets of kenya. the doubt. is there a light from down or so coming up? is there a launches a military operation on their should? yeah, yeah. neighborhood, east of golf, especially these 8 palestinians have been killed.