the, the, the you ins, top court rules, israel's decades, one occupation of palestinian territories is unlawful. the international court of justice says it must end as rapidly as possible. but what's the impact of this non binding booley? and will it change anything on the ground? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm shown. illegal is rarely settlements had been steadily expanding and palestinian territories for years now. but you ins top court says it's time for israel to stop reversed course and repair the damages. the international court of justice has ruled, israel's occupation is unlawful, and this fueling a surgeon violence. however, the court's findings are not legally binding. and these really government has ignored previous decisions. so while the i c j is advisory opinion have any practical implications? will it increase pressure on israel's alex will explore these issues with, i guess in a moment, but 1st this report by katya lopez of the cvc says the us top court has called on israel to end its occupational palestinian territories as rapidly as possible that says israel's policies violate international law and amount to annexation is all over. he goes to israel has an obligation to put an end

to those unlawful acts. israel also has an obligation to repeal all legislation and measures that create to maintain this unlawful situation. most israeli settlements are in the occupied westbank. the international court of justice says israel should stop construction immediately and remove settlers from palestinian land. it also urges israel to pay restitution to palestinians. yes you are the old statesman, smell fulfilled it. clear obligations? no. i know collusion, no money, no weapons, no trade, nothing with israel. so much. the court's opinion is not binding. and the is really government has ignore previous rulings and a statement posted on social media, a prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the jewish people cannot be occupiers in their own land. many of the ministers, 6, especially from the extreme,

very extreme right. to believe that there is room and couldn't live without the world. and that day anything which is the said about us about the conquering, about occupying and whatever is by us that despite international criticism, is real house for years, sees more lands to expand its illegal settlements. and estimated 780000 is really settlers lives in the occupied west bank. and there palestinian neighbors live under military rules and regulations that limit their freedoms. the initial request asking the court to review israel's actions and the occupied territories was submitted by the us general assembly in 2022. well before the war ongoing. so, but the findings are now raising questions about israel's a 9 month on slot, on the strip. despite the ongoing attacks, israel strongest n y, the us says the ceasefire deal with homos who's making progress. i believe we're

inside the tenure online and driving towards the goal on and getting an agreement that would produce a ceasefire. get the hostages home. it's not the 1st time the court has condemned israel's policies in the occupied territories. now, palestinians are wondering if the court's opinion will carry any weight on the ground. katia lopez again, i'll do 0 for insights. story. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests, which i'm at is the head of the center for applied international law ever hacked a palestinian rights organization and the drawing just from a line the occupied westbank in the hague. of liam says, is the legal counsel for the state of palestine and author of the book, the united nations, and the question of palestine and in london is you'll see mecklenburg and associate fellow of the middle east and north africa program at chatham house. a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story was um, let me start with you today. palestinian officials have held this icy j ruling as

a watershed moment. from your perspective, do you agree? how historic is this? yeah, we definitely agree that this is a significant milestone in the history of the 1000 and struggle and specifically through the use of international law as a tool for the realization of the right to self determination for the palestinian people and the international institutions that have been developed since world war 2 have the unfortunately been slow to address the, the, the modern day colonization that was taking place in the palestinian context. but i think get this recent decision puts in full view with a strong, a authoritative the legal content that to israel's practices within the occupied palestinian territory. and whether they set it there or not,

there reflect a continuation of colonization that needs to be brought to an end with them. despite all that, this advisory opinion is a non binding ruling. so in light of that, will it have an impact on the ground and if so, when might it start having an impact on the ground? well, the impact of the on the ground is very much dependent on the 3rd states and their willingness to take care of this advisory opinion and, and put the recommendations that are brought forward that traction. mann district. flyers concrete steps to be taken by 3rd states by international organizations to challenges israel's cost benefit calculus of the circle on your project. so i mean, historically colonial projects to have continued until that cost benefit analysis

changes in right now. unfortunately, israel continues to enjoy the opportunity that comes with uh, it's a, it's on we bring support from its allies and that it requires a change within the, the international community is dealing with the as real and changing the cost benefit calculus out of the we know that this isn't the 1st time that a court or international body has condemned israel's policies in the occupied territories from your vantage point. how significant is this ruling from the i c j? and are you in any way surprised by it's a seismic event when one looks at the history of the i c, j. 11 looks at the history of international law and the question palestine, it is seismic it offers the potential for great pain if follow up a requisite follow up is undertaken. why? well, as you said in your lead ups, and as we, sam is reaffirmed,

the principal judicial organ. united nations has issued an authoritative legal opinion on israel's continued presence in the occupied palestinian territory, which it has deemed now to be determined now to be re unlawful. now the united nations has over many decades indicated that many of israel's actions in the occupied palestinian territory have been illegal. they have documented that chapter and verse, but what they haven't done until today or until yesterday, was determined the legality of the regime itself. the contrast with each other legal actions. and that means that everything, these freebies do any occupied palestinian territory because they're, they're unlawfully is painted with erie county. this has a run on effect with not only israel's legal obligations under international law, they're obliged to, to, in the occupation as rapidly as possible and be stopped by those keys the next

6 months. now in this case, the mortalities love when the occupation needs to be ended will be left to the general assembly. but we surmise that that will be listed as 6 months because that will be the starting point. in addition, their obligation to disrupt, to make reparation, not only peculiar, but also material return of refugees, return of property, return of cultural property that has been stolen. but you can imagine the extent of, of the damages over 60 years on most of these re, before a military occupation colonization, an annexation posts in the territory that that would entail. in addition, there are 3rd state obligations. now that are triggered all states on her tab locations 1st, not to recognize israel's continued presence and be occupied palestinian territory, nor most importantly to not eat or assist in the maintenance of that illegal act action. and then finally, the court has determined that israel's presence in the territory is accompanied by a regina of racial discrimination, racial segregation,

and apartheid. those nodes racial, segregation, and apartheid that must be brought to an end forthwith by the international community. one thing i'd like to mention is what i'm talking about, you'd mentioned at the, at the lead up to this is a non binding opinion. i beg to differ. while technically advisory opinions are on their face non binding, to the extent that the principal traditional oregon of the united nations being the i c, j, makes a determination authoritative determination on how to interpret a relative international legal principles which are themselves already binding because they form part of customary international law, those aspects of the ruling or binding. and i can tell you hand on heart that every key finding of the, of, of the international court adjusted to including those which are set up now. more binding on israel and not just on israel, on the whole of the international community. you'll see in the aftermath of the decision we heard is really prime minister benjamin netanyahu, and other members of his government condemned this decision. that of course,

is not a surprise that they've taken that stance. but from your vantage point, do you believe that any members of the government are taking a different stance privately? is there any pocket of concern amongst is really government officials about how much pressure this might eventually put on israel? that is a defense for your job saying this young man because they can substitute stuff to potentially muddy the government. i think the biggest find that is strongest on some by many sell them, you know? oh, solely so excited because the understanding disability, visuals so way that besides down the out of this decision. yeah, it is binding a lot to defense. how causes actually an organization and businesses are going to react to this? and yes, the shows in, in, in their ability to enforce a full sized sized decision. but people like them, you know,

and some of those understand disability. all based on what you what the but i think generally you pay me for a new government which department, he said the army. so here this is the when i swear, i'd say expect that it will take it very seriously. i think there, there's such a do. so on such a the visit the, the need to and the few patients on the other have us elementary solution easily got when did listen to those are they want to do this with the international community is doing the doing because the day they do that and the slides, so one should not listen to the slash slash decision that's, that's what all of these. and there is such a volume store where it says there is no information as such. they don't recognize many of those from the file. i don't list these of, you know,

the most of the day the shuttle. but there's this actually that's a so the international community to main discount. so they will continue doing what they've done so, so many years. but then we find that the $0.60 and that's $700000.00, such as and the situation that is gonna be nation that has that we see, because this goes to a standard c as in the day with some is there going to be pressure now on palestinian leadership to try and utilize this ruling in a way that makes a difference for palestinians. what are the expectations going to be from palestinians on the ground? well again, i think the best reckoning gives us a nother tool in the tool kit to in use for advocacy efforts by civil society. i think definitely the posting the leadership that can leverage. ready this opinion to enhance diplomatic engagements. i mean, it provides

a strong legal foundation to uh, to make it to the case that, uh, within the un and various other uh, international forms. uh, and it is incumbent upon, uh, all palestinians and all those are struggling for the rest of the cost. and you need people to make use of this decision and turn it into tangible action. we've seen what happened with the previous advisory opinion assume the 20 years ago that it had an impact in moving mean through civil society action, but was not to utilize the, to the greatest extent possible. and i think we have to learn from the lessons of the past that simply having an advisory opinion and having even any traditional ruling alone will not be enough that has to be converted into tangible actions. and this will only come through concrete pressure that is being exerted through civil

society that will lead to a shift in the political will of those countries that are continuing to support israel blindly. the other day i saw you reacting to what was um was said, so i'm gonna give you a chance to jump in. but i also want to ask you about another issue. you know, in the past few months, we've seen the u. s. u. k. we've seen european sanctions being imposed on is rarely settlers and subtler groups that support them. this, this ruling from the i c j means that we might see some of these governments applying sanctions to settlers that they might start applying sanctions to members of these really government. and it's, it's certainly possible. and in fact, it's, it would be if you like, required. so up until now these states have imposed limited sanctions on individuals, settlers. those are sort of a hiding behind fig leaves. really the settlements as such are actions taken by the occupying power to acquire territory to the use of force, the, the buttress,

if she like israel's aggression, israel's annexation, and the legal occupation that it is had you know, in the occupied policy and territory since 1967, so what that calls on is the duty of 3rd states, including the states that you'd mentioned to not recognize any action that israel takes in the territory to maintain the legal situation, being their presence in the territory. what does this mean for settlements? not merely the imposition of sanctions on individuals, settlers one or 2 here or there. but to ensure that trade relations with the states that are bi lateral between israel and the bad uh, extradition agreements that they have with israel. if they exist, that, that in their bilateral relations with israel, that they differentiate between israel proper and the occupied palestinian territory, which is not israel. and this, this will require far more action from a robust action domestically by the states. and if they are to abide by their

obligations under the advisory opinion, and i have every confidence that this is going to serve as a tool, if you like, the opinion to change policy bilateral policy of 3rd states in their relations with israel. touches on the status of jerusalem, touches on the status of the occupied palestinian territory and other relations, but they have cultural relations, economic relations, and so on. so you'll see up, let me get your take on this. um, do you think we're going to start seeing sanctions being applied to is really ministers over institution supporting the settlement enterprise and, and do you think the allies of israel could find themselves at risk of perhaps future prosecution if they support enterprises that are linked to illegal settlement it's a different see, it goes to baby teeth. there isn't that to relation most eventually it's not going to be on the this, the scary stuff in the folder more in gaza considering what has happened in the

last 9 months. it's as it says and the cumulative criticism all the way easily at least the 1st thing this line though says that the diesel being ordered. and finally they open himself to what's happening in that, in the respect. but also you gotta be foldable and, and in the sense that got that was off you by even before the roll. and the fact that there's a restore phone, guys like 2005 blackstone georgia baldes that states that they receive all this amount of money to, to patients. so this is carlos and i'm going to see again my supplies that's in ross we have yesterday. but the good taking the language, which i kind of do extra big the seriously, especially conflicts the sessions and stuff since the whole thing, human rights and, and i'm sure it's a, it's a, a,

a international. and this is, this is the best, the country. how to go about this is this the end of the day, we will last a little closer to the police because i know what to expect on the assessments to, to be there more than definitely email to me to see when it should go. she's or any size joyce thing and how the boy about wednesday says fine guys on when we look at the day asked you also of the future of the country in which one is the same logic . so evasion comes to an end with the policy associated with the determination that bush and the stuffing out of the um, you spoke earlier, right? if i, if i yeah, i will go ahead. i was gonna just, i was gonna get you with a follow up. go ahead. go ahead. and yeah, just with respect to what you'll see just mentioned, he must, he might have said this in passing that, and he said no one expects that the settlers will be activated, or all of the settlement settlers hope you've activators, something to that effect. i hope i got that correctly. i'm actually with respect to

the wrong. you'll see the international court of justice has indicated just yesterday that every settler in the occupied palestinian territory has to be removed by israel from the occupied palestinian territory as rapidly as possible. now the questions of the mortalities of when that takes place are up to the general assembly. and as i said earlier, based on the tribals precedent, you're looking at possibly 6 months. a determination by the general assembly that this has to happen within 6 months. it may or may not do, but the point is it won't be up and this is the most important point. i think that we take away from all of this. this happened in the yesterday. it won't be contingent. none of this, the end of the occupation will no longer be contingent on negotiation. the occupation itself is unlawful is an internationally wrongful act, and under the law or state responsibility as a firmed by the principal judicial organ. and the un,

israel is under an obligation to insight international wrongful act, unilaterally unconditionally, that is not subject to negotiation. so when it comes to 3rd states, for instance, in the pressure that they may be brought, bringing to bear on the parties, to the conflict, to negotiate the end of the occupation those days are long gone. and the ice which is made it so just yesterday with them i do have a question for you, but yeah, you'll see i'm going to let you go ahead and respond to a doctor that was saying, oh yeah, i use you. that's assessments told you and such as it's here. yeah. but yeah, the situation did 0 such a notification. we have at least based on the success went up whether we liked it or not, we definitely can know better. i said it's, you know, we wish that the assessment budget was never stopped. and the answer is that the situation that we have to be noticing was on negotiation between days of some were 5 as being the sounds such a mess would stay in sunset. the minutes was broke and it will be sort of there. so

i see what, what i think called beside it. the rest of the. ready yesterday it says the benchmarks about the got to do the assessments and because of the, such as how it's going to translate into. but if it goes to the id which you in respect and truly say this decision, i think this has to be slightly solved to be so low and the legs when it goes huge . with some we've spoken already in this conversation about the potential role that the you in my play going forward, the court ordered the you in general assembly in the un security council to take whatever action necessary to in the legal occupation at the un. what do you expect to happen? what are your expectations going forward? well, i mean the you, when is the composition of that individual was states? and so we expect that those states that supported the advisory for me in the 1st

place to take the lead in the pushing it forward through the general assembly, but also per share for a security council action. but at the same time not to be reliant on these. ready you and organs themselves to take action because each individual state has its own obligations to address its relationships with is real, the conduct of, uh, its businesses and their engagement that so with said with this real, especially in the occupied territory and involvement of the settlement enterprise because each individual state has a role to play in changing this cost benefit calculus of israel's profitable settlement enterprise. and it is this that needs to be a challenge. can every state needs to reassess its relationships and how it can challenge and change that cost benefit calculus. because until now, israel has develop the what i call a best business practice of colonialism, which it has continued to exploit costing in land that natural resources. in

addition to exploiting the costing and people themselves, whether through labor or using them as elaborate set for the development of technology that has been exported to abroad. all of this systemic issue needs to be addressed in a holistic manner. but each individual state has a role to play and addressing it in its constituent parts. out of the why do you think it took so long for the question of israel's legitimacy over the occupied territories to be addressed? in this particular way, it has to do with the store to record of the treatment of the occupied boston new territory by the united nation. since 1967 in that year, there were differences of opinion between different blocks of stage as to who was to blame for the onset of hostilities, and therefore the ok, the resulting occupation therapy states. the eastern block said that this was an aggression by israel. the western states of the opposite, and there isn't

a clear record, we give you the in the u. n. system on who was to blame for 1967 despite what the record has since for a field. and so it took a while for the international community through the un system to determine the israel's presence in the occupied territory was in and of itself unlawful. you have some indications from the general assembly in the late 19 seventies and early 19 eighties. great express references in general assembly resolutions that israel's occupation is on awful. pat as well as in the academic and social council in the 19 ninety's. but those references to israel's illegal occupation drop off after also. and i have not been able to determine why i surmise that it's because of the promise that also held out to the international community on, on the end of the occupation. and we now know that that was a false promise. but all this to say it took a while and a lot of work to, to, to get the court to,

to arrive at this conclusion. but it fundamentally was determined by the facts on the ground, all of which are established in the u. n. record overwhelming. be clear, annex ation of occupied palestinian territory and the desire to it to, to frustrate the right of the pulsing and people to self determination. while imposing the regime of racial segregation in apartheid on them that renders the occupation next, essentially unlawful. you'll see we only have about a minute and a half left, but i just want to ask, you know, is real immediately was government officials in israel immediately rejected this conclusion from the i c j. um, do you think that the opinions that have been stated by netanyahu and other ministers of members of his government reflect what public opinion is in his real? you know, and we know this is we would like to see the same documents there seems to the 7 weekly, so they say open invoice of the open invoice. you guys wanted to see dan girlfriend . nothing else. i'm sure, but it doesn't, it doesn't mean that these are the societies going to the next will be talking

about businesses that these are the fees. and i think possibly this advise you to be some time and you know, your lower notes are not as besides you this also some, some drama. maybe that will be more openness and the no, i'm afraid it's most easily. we'll see it again as an ox against season. it says to girls, so once he's released to the society, so more so certain showing what is the occupation they've done so is that i'd like to see to it slightly t 3. so the license ready for the boot device the most and the region, but i, i'm assigned on this issue, so i'm going to after life now. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there today. thanks so much to our guest with some of them says and go see melbourne and thanks so much for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website obviously,

or dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. you can also during the conversation on x r handled is at. adrian says story for me. how much of gentleman the whole team here? bye for now, the the latest news, the lounge, roads that could supply the people of calls of what are available for the us didn't use. it's leverage to force as well to open them with detailed coverage make shift to schools as from distraction from the ongoing contest and plumbing. um, displacements of like thing goes up from the hall. so the story is really a military claim. the target of the attack was a funeral. i'm a military commander, but how much is the claim falls? are 2 weeks into protests against a controversial finance bill. demonstrators are still on the streets of can you

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