i saw a life altering experience for any victim most so when 2 years is huff of your lifetime, a full year old. yes. the boys struggles to recover from the trauma of abuse and the witnessing of unspeakable atrocities. meds, childhood a witness documentary on a jersey to he's a wanted man and in hiding. yes. and why is name to the political leader of how much after the assassination of this mountain, honey, with no engine site to israel's war on gaza. what does this mean for ceasefire talks? and well, how about us understand warranty? different. this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much i'm john. how much has a new political liter? your highest and warm described by some is a hard line strategist, spent more than 2 decades and is really present and now holds unprecedented power within the movement. his appointment comes a week after the assassination of us value and the intent, ron send wars boys to make crucial decisions on both military operations and diplomatic negotiations. is real accuses him of masterminding the october attacks which led to the war on gauze. so was sent a wire at the helm. what are the prospects for a cease fire? and how well, how much balance of political and military ambitions? well, they'll deeper into this with our panel of guests. but 1st, this report from actual time of which i have seen was the leader of hamas and gaza, has been chosen as the moments new political liter a. his breed assessor his spinal honey. i was assassinated in the rainy and capital last week. you had the been well was chosen unanimously,

and this shows that the movement is aware of the nature of all the difficulties that it's facing. negotiations were managed by leadership and send what was always present. seymour's path to leadership is marked by wars. born in a refugee camp in han, eunice he spent 22 years in his rarely presence before being released in a 2011 prisoner exchange, a deal signed by benjamin netanyahu. israel accuses him of masterminding. the october attacks on southern is ro and the prime minister describes him as a deadman walking. the international criminal court has sought arrest warrants force and war, and other senior hamas officials, as well as for annette. and yet, when these really defense minister for alleged war crimes, seymour will now represent her mazda negotiations towards the seas fire, and the release of his really captives is suspected to be hiding in causes extensive network of tunnels, which analysts say could pose

a challenge if he's to approve any potential deal seeing the wires also at the top of israel's most wanted list. a captive, samuel is accused prime minister netanyahu the railing. detox by assessing any kind in the situation is, is one of them in which we need to have significant pressure on everybody. whoever has to blend to accept these terms, get the fish fire down during the exchanges, and move on to the next phase, which is going to be even more complicated to govern power strong. i'm to possibly leave wednesday as early as live guys or to lead to a negotiation for a part of the resolution of the palestine. israel conference seymour's decision would likely shape cause us future beyond the israel score as a man who has experience displacement, imprisonment and occupation throughout his life, his perspective will be crucially determined. come us as path forward. access i

much al jazeera for insight story. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests from new york. we're joined by on more a month, a fellow at the middle east council on global affairs. he focuses on middle east, your politics and american foreign policy in the region. in belfast is professor beverly milton edwards co author of how much the quest for power and a former e u. special advisor to the middle east peace process. and also in new york is norman finkelstein, a political scientist, an activist who specializes in the israeli palestinian conflict. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. home are let me start with you today. the naming of yes and war is the leader of how masses political wing. what is the message that sense to well, 1st and foremost, i think it is a message of resilience and defiance from the organization that you can kill one

leader. and there will be a seamless transition to another and i think the speed and efficiency in which that happened within a week of the killing of a smelly honey is rather remarkable, especially without a designated successor. i think it's also, you know, a finger in the eye of these really on october 7th is really about to kill bu. ready send water and destroy him ass, and here we are 10 months later, despite the full brunt of these really warm machine and boats and water and how mouse are alive and kicking, and how he is leading to movement. beverly based on your extensive knowledge of how much was the announcement the yes and why had become how much his overall leader was that expected or did that come as a surprise? no, i it's, it's no surprise really. the sitting was taken on the mantle of the leadership of the movement of rule. uh, we need to remember that he's played a pivotal role since he was elected as leads across it in 2015

and his sort of control of the tactics to help the movement achieve its objectives. has been really key to the events that have on folded really since 2020, 2021. so it's, it's no surprise, really, the same offsets really sort of endorsement of how my says determination to continue that aren't on behalf of the palestinian people against me is really occupier. and then narrative has very much scented on, you know, here is yet to not the lead from the people born of the people born in a refugee camp who's experiencing the same kinds of experiences of his radio patient on his reading seats that everyone else in the westbank all the stripping east jerusalem is to norman, from your perspective, what do you think all of this will mean for gaza and for the people of guys are going for i think there are 2 things there need to be kept in mind.

number one is real, is no doubt you for about the choice of civil war. because it's star really. israel has always dreaded most what are called the moderates on the palestinian side. when it launched it to attack and left a non in june 1982. the purpose of the attack was to defeat the moderate leadership of the p. o, which at that point was on record supporting a 2 state settlement in the hope that the modern leadership would be displaced by a quote unquote radical leadership. and then as well can do as always, wants to, to throw its hands up in despair to pretend there is nobody to negotiate with the same thing happened in 2012, when israel assassinate are committed. sure bowery was actually, is realism to lock either. up until that point, we're trying to negotiate

a long term ceasefire between israel and how much that was talked at the time. then not only would there be a short term for the long term ceasefire. and jabari was the point man, and israel proceeded to assassinate him. so i do believe that israel is probably elated by this choice, because now we can say, how can we possibly negotiate with them? that's the mind of october 2nd of the other. the other point i would bear in mind is that the choice of uh, sim bar as the leader is a signal that is we have the hallmark doesn't believe that negotiations are possible with isn't real. and in fact, i think that is a reasonable inference, as in why i said in the previous interview, i guess some 2021 or 2022. he said we tried every thing we tried diplomacy,

we try not environment. so what resistance the great march of return, nothing work. and so the election of the election of some war is a signal that the homicide has, of course, still agree to are short term or long term. they no longer believe there is any possibility of coexistence would be through omar and look to me like you were reacting to some what norman was saying. so i'll give you a chance to jump in. but i also wanted to ask you to follow up on a point that that he was making. norman had said that from his perspective, israel would have been elated now with the appointment of sin war as its political liter. what, what do you think of them or? i agree, i think nothing. yahoo has probably a joyous over this appointment at the same time. i mean, there is a flip side to that and that is that nothing? yeah, that was responsible for the assassination of this. i'm gonna have you. yeah. so if

you're an outside observer who was a, you know, looking at penny and the negotiations that we're having in a call to as good faith negotiations that may have led to somewhere. then you know nothing, you know who is responsible for the outcome of the killing of negotiate or a, and the set back into those negotiations. and if you're in israel, a has a family member as a hostage there, then you might be upset over that kind of thing that yes, it's in water is the, you know, the boogie man that has been portrayed to these really public. but at the same time, nothing yacht, it was, you know, responsible for his rise as the political leader within him mass as opposed to you know, the, it's not any type of figure up beverly. um, let me ask you how well, how about us go about balancing military strategy and political calculations going forward? i mean, what's to be expected? well, i think the, the balance will, will remain pretty much the same. i mean with send while are in charge from gaza. we already know that there is

a determination by the is the non cosign brigades to continue. it's the time it's resistance direct to the axis. route line is really targets and now that's going to take place in the context of huge amounts of phase around regional escalation. as a result of that assassination. a voice mail in the air and to her on the attacks on the 2nd in command of his allah, in lebanon. so i'm in my, in my response to it will be pretty much business as, as usual. and to sing while will rely on the same sets of, of trusted lieutenant some kilometers from these. the knox time brigades, who he knows well and has worked with intimately in terms of political calculations . yes, i think that's much to agree with on the points from the law norman, regarding the negotiations, i was on the other hand point chance

a couple of things because this is that we need to remember that despite everything the israel has set since october, the 7th it's about yes, yes, in law, he has been key to all of the negotiations that have taken place mediated by congress like cats on egypt, sin salt towed, but the 7th by includes the decision backend late november to have those original postage releases in exchange for the document of terry and relief for prisoner exchanges release of posted in business from the west bank so that so that was down to his face. so and his, his voice and his opinion is intrinsic to any kind of decision making in terms of the politics of what, how comes next with respect to, to the war i'm do, you know, it's not like same law has an offset truce conditions to me to prime minister being

that time, yahoo! in the past, he did this in 2021. it was revealed in 2022 that he had to return the latch offering, offering those times um for at least for cease fire is not full full piece with with his rattle. so both norman, a lot of them are right to sort of point the finger back, so to speak, in terms of the political calculations and political considerations to all the politics. so they are currently engaged in this conflict. and those policies not only include the government of israel, but also include the security and intelligence services, the news trials. do we now know of really pushing it and that's on yahoo to agree to a c spot deal so that that could be some movement. so that they could, may be from be a hint of a political horizon. but of course, working against spots as well as whether or not from the extent to which the bike and ministration in the us will apply any life which was the web up phone. be the

next on yahoo to progress these tools. norman looked at me as though you wanted to add to what beverly was saying there if so please go ahead a my enter the can be used in my remarks. sorry sir, that of course this, this in guar responded to wherever towards a ceasefire and guys, and hopefully a long term ceasefire and go so however, what i had in mind in my remarks loose to say that there was at least a home, held out that the young a ceasefire. there wouldn't be a possibility for some longer for resolution. there's not a permanent resolution of the counselor mr. some wires and perfectly intelligent person and he knows so well that is will never agree to learn,

not just be be let them. yeah. how but the entire, it's fairly state and society, they, we've never agreed to a long term ceasefire and peaceful coexistence with sinew, are as the head of stage or hands off on boss and effectively head of state in god . and by um, i wanna say to him, to his new position, i'm not saying he was wrong in his conclusions. i think that's a perfectly compelling case that you cannot negotiate with israel. just like as little as herman to come hell or high water to go to war with the red and then select a colossal military defeat on it. including if possible use of nuclear weapons. i don't believe it's possible to engage it with a or g, but peaceful coexistence with the state of israel based and that's current

incarnation. and so when the elevated sing warrenson war understood him so that when i achieve this stuff is it means there's no possibility of a peaceful role. existence, long term with israel because i meaning certain mar are recognize. they will never agree to that with me as the head of state. i'm the mastermind of october 7th, and in fact they're, you for rick, the prospect they have nobody to negotiate with. and therefore, they have to use what is the only weapon in there are so know the weapon of force, the is reality using the last are fun. let's say. the only language arts of this is the arabs. it'd be fine with you for us. and in fact, that's

a projection the only our language is rollings, understand is uh, the language of for us, i guess some ad that she is real. if a force doesn't work, use more force. that's entirely, unfortunately, omar, you heard beverly a few minutes ago talking about how crucial send war was up until now in the negotiating process. so when it comes to the talks are running a potential ceasefire. um, i want to ask you, how much was he involved in the negotiations up until now? did he always have final say, i mean, it's difficult to know fully. uh, you know, the, the, the balance in that room in terms of decision making. but at the end of the day, the hostages are being held in gaza, not in contact with the negotiations, were taking place. you know, the fighting is being done in gaza. and i mean, we have to understand that, you know, the,

the most defining decision made by him as a leader and a. ready long time was the decision to move forward with the october 7th attack. that was a decision, as far as we know, that was made by the leadership within god's us and why being one of them and not by how many, uh, and had it in the shot necessarily in caught up. so i think the decision making is happening there and they have more leverage in and what decision is ultimately made . so beverly, all my, there was talking about the divisions between, you know, how much leadership and guys, or how much leadership outside of guys. let me ask you, is there now more of a separation between how much leaders that are inside gaza and those outside causes is that take leverage away from those leaders who are outside of gaza. you know, i think that the balance of power, if you want to call it that is the same as it ever has been. and this has been part of the challenge for israel,

which is always whether it was against the p o or the all the elements, the policy and national movement. i've always thought to use the strategy of divide and rule. and they, they've always found this, like all my simply impossible with how much that, how much leadership so how much, you know, privacy itself, one having a very so the strict lines of communication decision making is, jointly may to know why the individual will come out to out power, another individual when it comes to these kinds of crucial decisions about the objectives and or tactics. so i don't really see that there's going to be much of a of a difference because the leadership outside fully understand and appreciate everything . but people in jobs are the, the 2300000 people who are living on suffering and golf of ongoing for. so they believe it's important to remains that foss, it's important to remain to,

to maintain unity and in the right side to really see that, that's going to be any difference in that. well, i would like to remind everybody is this, but you know, in one sense if there is a d o send, one will be t in the monitoring and verification of that deal as he was back in november when it's really not the nationalities was, were released from the cost to the ultimate son of the palestinian on groups and in java. so on the one hand, whether israel likes it or not, they might prefer as a deal was a chief to have some d like send while, who has a track record for, for keeping to his was maintaining those moments of, of verification, of such deals as, as is agree better than somebody else who's, who's much more of a long known entity. beverly, let me also just ask you, if you're talking about the, the, the possibilities or the steps that might be taken to try to achieve

a deal. so are we know, is it the top of israel's hit list they, they set as much several times. i mean, how does it work in a negotiation? intox is how if he is now the lead negotiator, because in the past, depending no matter how much one person or another, you don't have final say, you still have somebody like me as an interlocutor for mediators. how does it work now as well? so we need to understand that to this mold and just type this more than just send while lead leading to the negotiations. so was t as in golf. so sometimes communications with golf. so have, has been difficult to have been delayed by can in dough hall sitting while will rely on assess a very experienced leaders. and then to look to is a lending please kindly, michelle mussa up of mazda kelly, allow high of all of whom have again, been playing a very important role in co ordinating positions. discussing positions,

looking at is ready proposals, looking at what some of the on the table i'm trying to make decision is trying to draw red lines trying to understand where and how they can make compromises. which in, in an environment which of course is very volatile and subject to all sorts of very she, my precious. so, i mean in that respect again, he's no, you know, he's not the only pass on that that the most sides um, the most athlete of share and c i a and the category. uh, media cuz uh i'll talking to him about that. we need to be very clear about we need to understand that these are groups of people who are engaged in very delicate processes of both negotiation with another police. you're an actor on the side and both can be accused of supporting actions. both can be accused of failing to engage in confidence, building measures, offering hope,

and then taking it to work. and that is, you know, at the last minute it's a mouthful i spoke to the family. so of is there any hostages, and those about the nationalities has been held in garza for the last 10 months, as it drops to the millions of palestinians who are suffering and goss. i'm counting the, the dead, whether the women and children as, as, as well as the elderly to, oh my, i saw you reacting just not what beverly was saying. look like you want us to jump in again. so please go ahead. no, i think she outlined it perfectly, but i was just gonna say that, you know, how mouse is not an organization of one man rule and that you know, being the political head of having us so ours, not necessarily you know, just and, and negotiate. or he has, i'm sure emissaries and as empowered a political, another sort of leaders that are really based on call talk to, to do those type of things, whether he's making, you know, decisions or ultimate decisions or his empowered people. i mean,

that's the way the organization is structured, so i wouldn't say, you know, every word is going to be conveyed to it is in war and god. and it has to go through those logistical hurdles. norman, um, if we could just take a step back for a moment and maybe you could just go common. sure. go ahead. um, i don't, i don't like to sound like a cassandra. as beverly has said, several times, the suffering of the people because it was on speak about, it's horrendous and as many as people like. so late gloves are really the heads of on are, are, and then the others have said they have exhausted the vocabulary of the english language in order to describe what has be cell has befallen godsa. and i don't want any way to add to the business. there that has already sunk in but i think there are some this up for you mention here. there is no

possibility of don't sherry trans. ready and from all sides, it will recognize that with the assassination of the time, the and the elevation of city war was a statement. we have come to the conclusion, there is no possibility of negotiating with news room. let's be clear and be close to the factual record then documentary record disappear is before i use in the, in the blink of a 9 not to know who's made clear that he's against any negotiations which might lead to a permanent ceasefire. he said, and the entire israel, the leadership agrees, we will agree to. ready a temporary cease fire and once the hostages are released,

then we continue until moss is not elated. and the 9 relation of the palm us affectively means quite a few times separate and small to build. the chinese communist leader used to say, you can separate the fish from the water. the $911.00 sion of moss affectively means there's no installation of gossip as the israel these like to say from they drugs uninhabitable and livable. so that the population by boat, or by crook, new gradually from the out of garza, the numbers now are between 800300004 garza's sub already found their way into egypt. and these really expectation is that we may cause a livable,

which they effectively have in my opinion. the estimates are it will take 10 or 15 years just to clear out the rumble from concept let alone begin the reconstruction of gossip. the population will as yeah. and so this talk of any kind of negotiations, in my opinion, is beside the point because israel has made clear it well negotiate, thomas has recognized you can't negotiate with israel. and they didn't realize that over the last 7 months, they realized that with the assassination of, from the and a send, a signal with the elevation of send the wire. we know. busy the ingle never negotiate . woodson wire, we understand that, but we also understand that it's impossible to negotiate with you. all right, well, we have run out of time,

so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests, beverly milton edwards on my roof, mon and norman finkelstein and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time of visit our website of 0. com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page, and that's facebook dot com, forward slash age and side story. you can also during the conversation on the x r handle is at a inside story for me, how much i'm room and a whole team here. bye for now, the of african stories from african perspectives. i'll say i am a creative at heart 3 short documentary spy, african filmmakers from nigeria, south africa, and zambia. i like my children. i like the me that because he didn't live is a 2 they sion of slaves and we all the same the forest women of i've seen from the cape and

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