in our life, we've terrible consequences. a documentary asks whether we've learned any lessons from the h. i p. as in the fight against cobit 19, we ignore the global socks to port products for 4 people. added more to cost. time appendix. oh no, just to see. oh, of telegram, pavel, do all the hells by french police to the attention of the russian born billing that has been condemned by moscow and a long months. so why is he being detained? that's the case, have wider implications for social media. this is inside story. the

hello welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a, them, he's one of the world's richest man, making his full tune from social media channels. he's invented including telegram, which has nearly a 1000000000 uses. but russian bone, french citizen, people do, or all of is now under investigation in front, arrested off the flying in from as everybody general private jets, his encrypted telegram app trades on it, secrecy refusing access the state agencies to its data bases or user information. there's a degree of secrecy so far about the french investigation too. but price reports in paris suggest it's linked to allegations of criminal activity where telegram was used. the company denies any wrong doing while the rest is being criticized in moscow and by a law mosque. so why is due or off being questioned? what are the, why the implications of this case?

we'll be discussing all of this in a moment with, i guess what the 1st, this report from wilson dies out. a telegram is founder puzzle. dogs was arrested in an airport near paris on saturday night. he was detained under the arrest warrant with french prosecutors and telegram have not commented on why french media reports say prosecutors are examined. the allegations of the messaging app telegram has been used to facilitate the trade of drugs, weapons, and the exploitation of children. telegram posted on its official channel saying it was absurd to hold the platforms owner responsible for the abuse committed by the users of that platform. drugs, native russia in april urge telegram to crack down on content. it described as linked to terrorism. after attacked by gunman on a moscow concert theater in march that killed at least 145 people. but on monday, russian officials described during the rest as an example of western hypocrisy. the

rest of the by the means that there is no freedom of speech that the freedom of speech in europe is that you will most because free mark to combat against freaks. but the final, the roof is non prison. why? because he's russian. he's a russian by nationality and he's russian by his citizenship. so he has been traced as a person to be asked. cape codes for the west as an evil russian. durham found a telegram after widespread anti government protests in russia in 2011. and he has been living an exile since russian authorities demanded he allowed them access to the app in 2018. he refused. the platform has a mass, nearly a 1000000000 global users, one of the world's most popular social media platforms. a deal on most who owns x, formerly known as twitter, posted a message and supportive derived in the hours after his arrest. using the french

word for liberty, regulation of social media is under great scrutiny, with lack of moderation blamed for the spread of misinformation and enabling criminal activity. bill drives case will be watched with interest, not least by his competitors. wilson dies ard elda 0 for inside store. the. well, that's bringing all gas now in by then ben arris found the and editor in chief of b, n. e. in telling news. he's been following this story very closely. and the new cost and, and the u. k. chris stoker walker, a technology and digital culture generalist, who also hosts the pod cost tech tonic for the human rights organization. article 19 the organization looks at freedom of expression on line with a focus on the human impacts of big tech and social media. more welcome to both of you. if i could stop with ben. so let's stop 1st of all band with, well,

do we know officially so far? we, we know he's been detained, he hasn't been charged, but i have authorities spoken to and i was about, well, the question to him, oh for what that he suspected of and very little sofa. the french police have been quite right since they have said that it's, he's been detained in connection with the preliminary investigation. and it's also being reported that he's being investigated by the, the, the cyber units of this on dominate. and they suggested this connected to a distribution of come up with a drug traffic and terrorist. however, as he said, that sizes are not actually been formally announced, his detention has just been extended to another 48 hours after which they have to either charge. and we'll let him go, but we're waiting for an announcement today, we're expecting to hear the details of the charges. and that will be key because to compare everything from just obstructing justice,

not for pricing in the investigation. trade to being linked, to complicit or an accessory, to the crimes the allegedly going on inside of brian, i'm those charges if it comes to that one, then he face a significant timing jail and very last time this is quite a significant development. is it not chris? do we have any indication about just how solid this move is the case against him? might be, as ben says, i mean, we are to very, very early stages of this. and from what we understand, the details are incredibly sketchy. we have had earlier today um that the secretary general is the ultimate which is the, the office of mine is being friends talking about how um door of was arrested over the course of kind of a lot of motor ration and a lot of cooperation. and we saw socrates when they're trying to tackle crimes against children. so that would suggest that they say is something to do with

images that were being shared to potential child abuse. and also, potentially you can think of things like maybe child profiting a lot of a lot of the, the newer of telegram, i suppose is this option as an option. one of the main, the misconceptions of how telegram works is that everything is sent by default through an encrypted process, but it's actually something you have to up to the to known. but you can do that and if you haven't been encrypted messaging service, then suddenly you can imagine that this might be useful for criminals to try and coordinate some of the crimes and also to kind of communicate with one another. so it looks like that is the case, but as ben is very clearly laid out, we're still in the very early stages alternates. we still don't fully know what exactly do or of is alleged to have done. and until we find that out, i think it's gonna be very difficult, not just for those was talking about it, but also for to or of himself to be able to mount a defense. ben, what do you make of the timing office? because telecom has been talking about how it's user base is growing,

how it hopes to be profitable. so that was even talk about maybe heading towards an i p o it has to i p a and it's a it strikes, right? it's kind of kind of itself makes no money, it's been existing onto the roof himself, who is musical in does look at the russia and so much as his previous company. the compact. and honestly case is basically the same as facebook. and he was forced out of that, he had to sell it several years ago, but made a lot of money and he's been funding. tell me about then he floats to claim to the crime and was hoping it's about us, arise it by. that's. and he has investors, and he's it'd be an issue in bones and he's promised to pay the investors back by march of 2026. and in order to to that define is to an idea. otherwise, you know, becomes on clear how he's going to continue to, to, to pay isn't best as he has to spend something like a $100000000.00 a year on servicing the the bonus that you already has. however,

if he's still in jail, then the idea becomes problematic, but suddenly it's on the costs. it's chris, the possibility of people using apps for criminal activity probably can't be only related to tyler graham right. want imagines, you know, a lot of apps could and platforms can be used potentially for criminal activity. why is do roles and telegram being targeted in this way? there are a couple of reasons i think twice. i mean, you rightly points out that you have telecom is, is not the only up that will host crimes and the communication of crimes. a new organization is crimes through a service. so i think what makes telegram slightly different and what makes people do, or of perhaps an easier target for friendships ortiz to take bodies, frankly, unprecedented. actually, i think in terms of bringing an attack c o to here, here, and then alleging a significant concerns around them. is that both telegram operates and this kind of

very old gray area where important because of 2 year olds, very outspoken defense of free speech and his, his willingness to kind of defend the rights of uses in canes law enforcement request, which tells us it makes a great deal of it, it says replace and think about it, we'll try and refused as many of those requests as possible because people using freedom of speech and what's not do or of she has an awful lot of space and police, i think with the likes of a lot most that makes it a target because that makes it a place where you all likely to see more criminals and others trying to evade detection. starting to kind of convert case now doesn't mean that this is a whole bed of crime. many, many people use it simply for communicating with friends and family and telegram is made that very clear that they believe that this is a case potentially without marriage here. but i think i don't, we do know,

just as always to jump in, but we do know rules that have been allegations against all the apps that they haven't being used by potentially criminal activities. extreme file, right? individuals in groups, some of who have been accused of engaging in violence or even convicted of engaging in violence. the recent writes and the u. k. highlighted that issue was allegations that they use twitter. and yet we haven't heard of any attempt to go off to the owner of the ceo of some of those platforms, right. which gets me onto the point i was just going to say which is not telegram up rates. and this kind of all the space where it is a big platform, 902950 1000000 users dependency on how your accounts and people do are all these a very rich man here, anywhere between $9.00 and $15000000000.00 network as buy some estimates, but he is not in the sort of same stratosphere as a likes if you don't muscle the likes of mock secretary i can like why?

so low teller problem is a lifeline for many people. good on the val. it's also nowhere near as big or as important as many as those law drops. and so i think that there is an element here of title do, or of intel, the ground being kind of a medium sized fish in a big part of the question, are you saying that he's basically an easy a target? yeah, that's exactly what i decided he's an easier target than anybody else to try and target to that. because if you try and bring multiple people you can to hung coast as he stepped off the plane in powers, i imagined that they would be a whole host of lawyers coming against differential authorities that rentals that were very, very strongly media presence to try and defend that whereas title do, or if it is a degree smaller and i think studies playing into differential authorities. hahn's here. he's been following this case been and the, the growth of, of telegram. and it's found the story for a long time. listening to what chris is saying that about him being an easy target . tell us

a little bit about what message that sending in lights of the fact that we do have credible allegations by credible organizations like the 2022 report by amnesty international that pointed the finger at facebook's algorithms. and as it put rent, the space to the profit as contributing to human rights violations in me, in law. and yet we haven't seen the same level of con thing, shall we say, of others as what we're seeing that's going on with telegram it. i think that sort of thing, facebook, i mean it, it's such a huge bible then surprise. the sexy things go after. and if you're going to make that kind of allegations against social media, then you start with the biggest ones. but i mean to follow up on the point that my, my colleague was just making, i mean what, what makes telegram really special in this case is the lack of motivation in, in the kind of kind of case is really extreme. i mean, the whole philosophy is do not ends a fixed axle,

and you can frame the as of freedom speech thing, and the russians x 2, you said before is doing exactly bad. but he's really ottoman and he's quite obsessed with it. but he doesn't interfere with what people say or do you want anybody into the system. so i haven't looked at the messages to the point where he face stuff with the f s. b in russia. the for my dad should be of the successes, apache beach who demanded the electronic keys because they said, what's it being a terrorist investigation? i think it's quite good because of the encryption because of the secrecy. but you can have in sending on messages. this is our office platform for criminal actors to, to use and even in those cases that's um, so the government has not given a go up for a split. it started sees based on very rare occasions that were pressured by the americans and did close down some terrorist um chat groups that were using type of i'm and again, the same charges come up here that one of the, one of the pos,

the investigation is being makes there is the french authorities are investigating um, so i'm so tired of this network. and again, don't know if has refused to give them access and under the new dish to the same to that is it, is he being pursued because the lack of moderation all because he simply refuses to hand over the electronic keys because, you know, coming back to the example i gave of, of the amnesty international ripple. well, they said about facebook was not simply that there was a, a lack of moderation. they said the way that the algorithms was structured and set top. and the, the profit pursuing policies actually played may. that meant that facebook was playing a much more proactive role in the spread of hate speech. now, surely, that is a bigger issue then simply being passive. if you're looking at applying lower, know the equally right part of the truth, but it's, it's slightly different than the case of facebook. you're posting messages to be

read by the general public. in the case of ton of crime, these terrorist groups uh, criminal groups, having private chat groups, private messages, and that doesn't go to the public. and the point is that they're attracted to test drive because not only do they have that end to end decryption that they tend to secret messaging function on. but there's also because there's no moderation, there's no one looking over your shoulder to see what you're writing about. whereas in the case of x and facebook, i mean, if you post a video or a picture of violence in the facebook people to take it down. unless the point is that another time does not interfere axle with anything that you post and also under the new know the if you moderates in your track groups and use spectrum of criminal activity, you're obliged to reports it to the place. and again, telecom hasn't done that, it doesn't have to pull anything, i'm going to just leave them alone unless they attract some of it. and that's why it's, it's grown this boss. and when i'm talking to friends in russia,

the leading ass in russia is whatsapp. ironically, however, if they want to talk about business, so we're discussing the details of a story. then they always asked me to switch to telegraph. this is trust, particularly the nation. you're that what you say on southern ground won't go any further and copy spied on. whereas the other apps kind of the on that point though, chris, i mean if it's a matter of moderation and there's no one looking over your shoulder. i mean, there have been cases where that thing goes being pointed at twitters is taking all the app during the recent writing in the u. k. where some of the things which been was talking about, you know, the obligation to step in and intervene and, and, and, and the activity that seen is inciting breaking crimes. being accusations that, that has. this being said is that by some of the other apps like twitter with the former to it's a vice president for europe, bruce stays the cooling for an arrest warrant for a long mosque if he quote continues to store up unrest. right?

but yet when not seeing, is they not what we're hearing in the social media is fairly, is this part of the world in the, in the southern hemisphere is there is a perception of double standards here. yeah, well i think it's, i think it's less double standards. i think it's more a degree of different savvy him so, but as has been highlighted in telegrams unique selling point is essentially that eighty's if and or outright marketing itself towards criminals, eighty's providing services and a way of doing things that it is at least useful to criminals, whereas on twit to you o x. now you have a kind of a slightly move at pad box version. is that where you have some motivational, lo, it has become much, much more expensive than most takeover, not as in part because of his kind of dogmatic approach to free speech and also in pop because of what seems to be his political persuasion. and then you have on the

other end of things, um yeah, we'll talk facebook and, and the other platforms that are run by mac to which it no one is denying that criminal activity happens on those. but it's, it's kind of as an adjunct to roles is on a reason for that platform existing. so some people might say it's okay, so it's a really to say it does that, is that really the case though? of course, when you look at some of the recent statements by a long mosque doing the rights in the u. k. and the way that that was interpreted, you know, the country heading towards the civil war and so on. and that caused the backlash of william, the prime minister of the. okay. yeah, but i that's equal to most of being a professional troll. this is no surprise or the last cause, inserted himself into the panel door of case not least because he shows a lot of things politically and cycling in terms of his belong to the top to that as as supportive. all of the i do at least of, of allowing could continue to our platform for the expression of a lot of right wing opinion that many considered a wondered whether it was

a violation of, of hate speech, a laws and crimes. a yeah, nothing to buy. basically that is not, is, you know, most will that we choose to live and he is unfortunately for because often decided that he is going to tell you to not direction no to be. however, it is interesting that ex fun to eat on. most cars actually exceeded to pretty much every government request that's being sold it to under with data. and we did see was telecom not necessarily hunting every day to pick up and, but i know certainly i was reporting on some of the we had groups that were being used tools and us arrives in the u. k. in the last few weeks over the summer and suddenly they started disappearing and we learned later through telegrams press office that they were deciding to actually take action against this. so i think you know, their own degrees of difference here. people do or does recognize that. yeah, there are some things that are potentially beyond the pale, not least when police are starting to breeze down his neck a little bit. but it is interesting to hear that. um, yeah, so you got a telegram is, i think a degree of difference away from you as

a slightly more mainstream possible stops. not the best way of thinking over these mainstream platforms versus fridge platforms. and no one is denying that telegrams need a 1000000000 uses on, not significant. but i think that if you asked the unabridged person to list the number of messaging services or social media platforms off the top of the head, telegram property comes way down near the bottom. listening, turn around, chris, so yeah, go ahead, ben. i just want to pick up on the point. i mean, the, in many ways just to do it of case is a, could be a test case, a alignment case, and so much this is capitalized, but it's a crystalized this whole issue of, of the need for companies motorized, the concept and pay attention to what's going on and you mentioned the rice in the u. k. and in this case, they've got a telegram facilitating drug traffic cuz i mean, we have this new european this low. but until this point, the social media companies have been left allows the self regulate themselves and

put in their own standards for motivation of what they find acceptable and what they do and so on. i must have spelled his own biases and so they put some funny rules in there and things like the ukraine has been downgraded in the search and then which is the quote of his. but i think that the brand, they think the more i get, i'm sure maybe becoming more government involvement. that'd be coming. i think she's crystallizing the debates around and i mean, here we are having exactly the discussion and the, you know, one of the options here is the french could accuse or off of being an accomplice is cards. not just a cost to them, not just, you know, failing to cooperate with the law enforcement investigation, but actually being uncomfortable. and if that happens, then he goes to jail for a long time. and it means the, you know, i'm sitting here in germany and if i wrote some uh, sweet pricing, hitler, which is illegal in germany, then not only will i gets punished, but then it makes must also complicit in that and opens the criminal charges. so

this, this could, i mean, i don't think it's going to go that way. but and the point is that what is the responsibility up the end of the social media to monterey, one of the guidelines and where the standards, plenty of the rest and see? absolutely, that's a, that's very well. so it's, i'm glad you raised that point on because i'm, i'm fairly sure ben, you're not going to tweet something supportive of hitler. but the beyond that way, does the responsibility for how people use an app or a product. and chris, i mean, tyler brown says it's completely upset to hold the owner responsible for how people use a messaging or social media app or does yeah, the same arguments made by god, manufacturers and others. isn't that you think homes are responsible for the actions of people who own them? i do think that there is a responsibility here and i do think that uh, we are in an interesting moment because this is the 1st time that essentially european regulators have no access to the to but of the book. and it is interesting

that they have decided to go after an individual named pace of ross of the company . so ben mentioned earlier to all of the large european bits of regulation of the coming through digital markets. often the digital services aren't, they serve different purposes, but essentially the design of them is so about you repeat consumers, whether you are buying stuff or you are interacting with other people or protected in some way from issues or free speech issues of crime and so on. and so forth, and i think that what's really interesting about this is not, this is a step people, not, this is not just saying we will find the, which is what they are able to do one to these 2 bits of legislation. but instead, this thing actually, we will call you executive, you'll see your found to directly responsible for the instance that are being caused through your platform. and that is a significant development because ultimately not then means that you suddenly have no people ending up in j. o. but it does mean not marks are configured on most can

know that it's crude and feed re b cold. partly responsible for the actions are taken through that platform. but i think that is what is particularly interesting to me, not that they smell cause a huge change all that moment. so typical must go be quaking. and that boots right now, i'm worrying that they're going to be putting to shackles when they land and you are. but i think that it will cause them at the back of the mind to think, well, maybe owing to page to be colton next, but perhaps some of my slightly lower down executives won't be. and maybe the, as you mentioned, the low or related to that, you mentioned a moment ago that interestingly, you know, some of these apps have actually, and it almost has been more cooperative with authorities requests. is that a factor? do you think here in, in how, how far these go off to some of these apps? do a look at the degree of cooperation or not? do you think of? yeah, absolutely. this is the reason why we all seem puzzled, where all the rest of right now, it's not because you just don't need

a degree of issue of what is actually on telecom is because of the way in which he's closer to it and kind of showing off that he's loved to go to. so why was seeing you on must being talked to so much by european regulate just by the way. and people like to every breath talking, who is more of the east commission, is in charge of the looking out how regularly meets the road when it comes to social media platforms. he's picking fights with him as well. i got a brief minute here and i want to ask this question to ben. we've seen roches being, i think, fairly critical of what's happened in front so far. but of course, their office had these issues with the russian authorities to is a bit of international power politics going on here. well, i think you have to realize, i'll put this in the context of my is the russian senior russian business model is just being accused the truck attracting and distribution conversely, and it's being thrown in jail. and this comes in the context of the present as well . but we just had where even goes, which was arrested us reports and input ins,

joe for it yet and eventually spots in in august. so is this a story present as well? and so as far as the doing are concerned, i'm there already, the russian positions are already saying the same thing that the americans who are behind this uh that building on put prisoner as of i'm not going to keep the billing there. and then in the, in a look 1st, what lights are on again, nice everything in this classic a conspiracy. there is a come pulling out at this point. i mean, there's also the fact that the was flying from back to us by john on his way back to us the biggest bug. and he being that seemed try and see goods. and because in russia, sort of crime is actually being under like, um, the lines that youtube slowed down to is basically not working now. and then just last week, but sort of ground on what side of the services went disruptive. and the belief is, or that sort of wins tobacco and to try and st cloud's in so loving and so

protective service. so that wouldn't be shutting down. but again, you know, that puts him in proximity of concern that he's on the, on a cocked in europe. as being every on about his being sanction and this asset sees and then suddenly boom, you know, this rational tank, the biggest threats and take a bidding announcement as just be interesting. and so for most i see that i see this is completely listed. send a really interesting, fabulous discussion. that's fine. com. guess very much for it. then iris and chris stoke. a woke up, i'm fine q 2 for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website out to 0. don't com for further discussion ahead of us on facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash i j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. how handle there is that a j inside story from a sam is a that and then the whole team here for now is combine the

the colleges here with what happens in new york has implications all around the world to make these stories resonate requires talking to everyday people from mayor of the city and i was doing away with the 1st year that was supposed to get everybody off the street . it's international perspective with the human touch zooming way in and then pulling back out again the

the of the hello. i am the why the welcome to the news our life from dell ha! coming up in the next 60 minutes, do you? and it's saying it's on able to conduct idle fractions and goes off to israel's evacuation orders, but insist it's not pulling out from the strip series of coordinated attacks and buckets, dogs pollution has done proven skills, at least $74.00 people. russia targets energy facilities and ukraine

knocking out power and water supplies in the capital keys rescue assets around the way. and so down off.