this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. in recent years, israel has sought to establish diplomatic and economic relationships with gulf arab nations. so—called normalisation was agreed with the uae and bahrain, talks were progressing with saudi arabia and that, of course, was before the current israel—hamas war. so what kind of fallout has that had in the gulf? well, my guest is jasem albudaiwi, secretary general of the gulf cooperation council. could the largely family—run gulf states be destabilised by the conflict in gaza?

jasem albudaiwi, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you for having me. it's a pleasure to have you. now, we are talking as the temporary truce in the war between israel and hamas continues in gaza, but benjamin netanyahu, israel's prime minister, has made it plain that it will come to an end very soon and then, he says, israel's military operation will continue with "full force" until "complete victory". when you hear the israelis say that sort of thing, what is your response?

thank you, stephen, for having me. i'm not surprised. he's been neglecting all international calls to cease fire for a long time. we're happy to see that the efforts by our brothers in qatar and egypt bear fruit and reach that agreement where exchange of prisoners, civilian prisoners, is done, and some of the goods and humanitarian and development assistance is moved through. it's not enough. the assistance is not enough. on that question of assistance, the gcc did pledge substantial amounts of money, i think up to $100 million. 100 million, yes. now, is that money that is deliverable at the present time through the rafah crossing or is it simply money that, one day, you hope will turn into aid for the palestinians in gaza? well, it is both money and goods. the $100 million us we pledged

is in both kind and actual money. we are facing difficulties with moving the assistance to the palestinian people. we seek the international community help to convince the israelis to open the passage to access this goods. it is quite tough to see your brothers and sisters suffering. you have the goods that they need, you have the assistance that they need, and yet at the same time, stephen, you are unable to move it because of the israelis�* policies on blocking these assistance and controlling them, and giving everybody a limited time for moving these goods. let's talk about the diplomatic fallout. you are secretary general, a sort of figurehead boss of the gulf cooperation council. isn't the truth that the israel—hamas war has exposed division and weakness within the gulf cooperation council?

you don't have a united position. 0n the contrary, we have an excellent common position. we were one of the first regional organisations to hold extraordinary ministerial meeting in muscat in october. we are the first group to issue a statement. to pledge the money. we are supporting our brothers in qatar. we are in every deal, we held a small group, uae, qatar and saudi arabia foreign ministers met in amman withjordan and egypt. i don't doubt that there are plenty of meetings. we are in the committee, islamic—arabic committee that was formed in the joint summit, but we have one common position on the aggression on the palestinians by the israelis.

well, let me stop you right there. please. you do not have one common position. it's more than seven weeks since hamas�*s murderous assault on southern israel on october 7th and, as far as i can see, only two of your six member nations of the gcc have actually come out with a clear, explicit condemnation of what hamas did. we say that quite clear, we condemn every action against civilians, no matter what their religion, citizenship, colour and gender. i'm talking about a clear, specific statement saying that hamas was a terrorist organisation responsible for a terror act. now, those aren't my words, those are the words of two of your member nations, the uae and bahrain, which have explicitly condemned hamas, and i'm talking about the uae saying what hamas did was a "serious grave escalation". the taking of civilian

hostages was "appalling". yes. my point is that other members of the gcc have completely failed to make that sort of statement. 0n the 9th of october, the gcc foreign ministers with the eu foreign ministers held their regular annualjoint meeting in muscat, 0man. and after that meeting, we issued a joint statement where both sides, the eu foreign ministers and the gcc foreign ministers said specifically, stephen, that both sides are responsible for this, both sides are responsible to cease fire and we both condemn the killing of the civilians, us and the eu. read the statement, it's on the 9th of october. so we condemn anybody who uses civilians, we condemn anybody who uses war and aggression against civilians, elderly people,

women and children. it is clear, it is obvious, we have done that. we have done that with many conflicts. we were very clear on that from day one. some of your member states list hamas as a terrorist organisation, as indeed does the united kingdom. do you at the gcc regard hamas as a terrorist organisation? we in the gcc have done and dealt with many issues of that sort, to condemn an organisation... the question was very simple. yes. it really required a yes or a no. what is the gcc position? to position a group, you have to go through international law, you have to have security council resolutions. there are rules and regulation to move forward with that, stephen, you cannotjust pick and choose a group and say, "this is a terrorist, this is not a terrorist." you have to go through a certain set, putting in mind and

consideration geopolitical aspect. what the state of qatar has done is dealt with hamas and that led to the release of prisoners from both sides and led to the ceasefire. it's interesting that you mention qatar, because, of course, over years, qatar has funnelled tens and tens of millions of dollars into gaza and indeed into ministries run by hamas, that at the same time as other gcc member nations, including saudi arabia, have defined hamas as a terrorist group. i referred earlier to gcc division — how can you have a coherent position when qatar is hosting senior leaders, political leaders of hamas, is funding hamas and other member states regard hamas as a terror organisation? i don't recall anybody calling hamas a terrorist organisation. i recall that we try to help

everybody, every side, to make sure that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the palestinian people, dealing with everybody in that aspect to find this resolution that everybody seeks and looks for, the two—state solution, the solution that, unfortunately, netanyahu's government does not find it appealing, does not find it fitting. this is the resolution to the issue. we're looking at the small, tiny details here, stephen, but you never ask me a question about the endgame. we'll get to that, don't you worry. how do we end this? how do we save and help the palestinians? how do we make sure that nobody, not only israel, but nobody in the entire world uses this kind of weapon and kills more than 111,000 people in less than a month—and—a—half? this is the most important question.

i would agree, it's a very important question. i want to talk to you about the endgame, as you put it, and what the gcc might contribute to the day after the end of the war in gaza, but before we get there, i do need — and it's not a detail, it's important — i do need to talk to you about the decision made by, again, some of your member states to normalise relations with israel. the abraham accords — we all remember from 2020, that is the uae and bahrain, two of your member states — chose to normalise relations with israel, a decision at the time the palestinians, led by mahmoud abbas and the palestinian authority, described as a "betrayal". would you now, sitting here with me in 2023, after october 7, after the war in gaza, say normalisation was a mistake? on september 25th, i think, or september 24th, his royal highness, the crown prince and prime minister of the kingdom of saudi arabia,

prince mohammed bin salman, was in a tv interview. he admitted and declared that saudi arabia was getting — if i quote him correctly, i can't remember exactly what he said — but he said something similar to, "we are getting closer, day by day, with normalisation with israel." so that was clear that gcc countries are toward peace. we're moving toward peace. 0n the 25th, it was in public. he did not shy away from saying it, which means that this would pave the way for the entire gcc to go into normalisation with israel. but do you think, stephen, now, after all this massacre, after all this barbaric killing in gaza, it will be business as usual? i personally don't think so. maybe it's a sovereign, it's a sovereign decision. each country deals with it in its own way.

that's why you saw two countries went ahead with it with the abraham accords. the other four did not choose to. but if you think it's going to be business as usual, i don't agree with it, but you never know. i actually asked you if you, on reflection, felt that the normalisation was a mistake. and i'm quoting to you now marwan muasher, former minister ofjordan, now at the carnegie endowment, who says this. he said recent efforts in the region have entirely focused on, for example, the abraham accords and on the false impression that peace is possible in the region without coming to terms with the palestinians still under occupation. i don't think... would you agree with that? i don't think one should focus on the negative aspect of any peace deal. we should focus on continuing finding peace. continuing finding the right partner to do peace with and to convince the international community that this is a global issue.

this is an issue that deals directly with regional and international peace and stability, and we need to solve it. i think whenever we have an opportunity to use the path of peace, we should move forward with it. again, with this israeli government, i don't think so. it is a government that is responsible for the killing of all these people. the international community needs to deal with this. we don't need to do any kind of double standard. we need to make sure that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. well, one last question on normalisation. we know that the israeli government, prime minister netanyahu, were delighted with that level of normalisation with key states in the arab world. so there's a degree of leverage there. would you, as the chief of the gcc, now say to those states which have completed normalisation, ie, bahrain, uae, that they should now reverse it, they should

cut their ties with israel? it is, again, as i told you, a sovereign decision. each country deals with the normalisation on its own. it's not something we discuss as a group of gcc, per se. it is a decision done by each country. however, and at the same time, you have seen partners and close strategic partners of israel criticising israel for the acts it has done in gaza. some of them went out public and said we should now recognise the state of palestine. we should now give the palestinians their right as a country. so it's not about normalisation. we are looking at the wrong half of the glass, stephen, here. it's about what are we going to do after this? this is the main question. this is the hope that

the palestinians, after seven, almost eight decades without a state, how could we do that? well, let's turn to what happens next. let's imagine the war ends. it will end at some point. now, mr netanyahu has suggested that israel's military will retain a security control over gaza for, quote, "an indefinite period." but the americans, and clearly they are key players, the americans have said there should be no israeli reoccupation of gaza. the secretary of state, antony blinken, has said that in essence, he wants to see a palestinian control of gaza. he would like to see it be the palestinian authority. but he says, in the short run, if that is not possible, there should be, quote, "0ther temporary arrangements that may involve other countries in the region." that may well mean the us is looking to the member states of the gcc. do you see that as a credible possibility? i have to discuss it among member states to get their take on that. but what i can assure you, stephen,

is we are ready to do anything that would help our brothers in palestine with the cooperation of other arab states and the international community. even potentially sending, quote, unquote, peacekeeping troops. peacekeeping troops. seriously, stephen, and i'm not running away from answering the question. it is a sovereign decision. each country decides to either take its troops here or there. each country has its own capacity, its own preparation, its own personnel. i'm not, i cannot answer on their behalf... i understand your remit is to speak for the gcc, and there are certain military matters which the gcc won't be controlling. you're more about economics and diplomacy and politics. i get that. but let mejust quote to you an academic, david adesnik from the foundation for defense of democracies. he says, "when israel is done crushing hamas," his words, "there'll be a political

vacuum in gaza. "the answer to this dilemma is for the arab world to take responsibility for gaza's future." i'm just asking you, as a veteran diplomat from kuwait, but knowing the gulf very well, do you believe that that is a possibility? a possibility of what, of...? that the arab world will take responsibility in the short run for gaza's future? we believe that the palestinian people should take care of their own within their own state, recognised by the international community within security council resolutions. we believe in security council resolutions. iam, as a kuwaiti person, i believe in security council resolutions because security council resolutions brought me back my country when saddam hussein invaded me. this is where we should pave our way. this is what we should promote, stephen. international law, un charter. this is what should govern us.

this is, as a human being, a civilised human being, this is where we should resort. governance, international law. most of your member states are ruled by families. they are not democracies, farfrom it. do you think that right now, given the level of anger that many publics appear to be feeling across your region, do you feel that many of your rulers right now are fearful of that public sentiment, of that rising anger? that is not true whatsoever. the people of each gcc country are behind their leaders. this is only in fake news and some other social media. we are great countries that have done the impossible in such a short time. we have invested in our people in the gcc, ourfigures, our numbers proven by

the international community. 0ur indicators are skyrocketing. we have ambitious plans. we have invested our best on our human capital. in our infrastructure. we are six countries living in a very tough neighbourhood, and we would like to see the whole neighbourhood prosper. we would like everybody to have the same lifestyle, the same prosperity that these six countries have. this is ouraim. there are certain things that the populations of your six countries don't have, certain freedoms. the us state department report from last year, 2022, listed all six gcc countries as showing multiple, significant and credible human rights violations, including arbitrary arrest, media censorship — i could go on because there are more — and indeed some of your member states had faced credible claims of torture in detention.

those are the realities that people in your states live with. that's not reality. the reality is when we go to geneva, to human rights commission and each country does its review, its regular review, this is where you should talk about human rights and countries. each country issuing any report depending on ngos and credible... i don't think you're going to regard the us state department as an unfriendly organisation, are you? i have challenged, i was kuwait's ambassador to the united states and i have challenged their data and their information. it's one—sided, they don't listen to us. they only listen to the other side and the ngos. when you come and tell them we are ready to come to talk and chat, and it is just one—sided story. isn't the truth that you come, like the trade ministers of your individual member states, you come to cities like london,

you talk about the potential for huge trade deals. but what you do also is send a message that says, and i'm quoting here the uae trade minister, who was in the uk earlier this year, "that you" — western countries, including the uk — quote, "must separate politics from trade and economic matters." ie, the message is, listen, don't bother us with your human rights lectures, otherwise you're going to lose out on the trade deals. stephen, you know, do you also have the right to lecture people on human rights? who does? who has the right to lecture whom? what is, what is the capacity of your side of the story to be the lecturer and i'm the receiver of the lecture? why? who gives you...? who gives you, who gives you this right? why do i have to listen to you? what makes you right? you don't think you do in any way have to listen to...? we have to make a dialogue. we have to talk and discuss it among ourselves.

we have to do it through the right channel. i insisted earlier on international law and regulation and conventions. there is one in geneva. they come and review you regularly. they review each country regularly. we can do it there. but to have people preach at you and involve issues and look at the glass half empty but not half full is something that has been bothering us. and we keep justifying ourselves and we feel like we don't have to. you can come and see it with your own eye what kind of countries we are living in. a final thought about the rhetoric that comes out of the gulf. it's about climate change. as it happens, cop 28 is about to begin in the emirates. what is also clear is that while the gcc says that the region is committed to net zero, to a transition to clean energies, your member states are pushing huge,

ambitious plans to expand oil and gas production. how can you square the two? well, you can. you can definitely can. how? the international community insist that there is still need for more investment in oil and gas. 0pec says that we need at least 600 billion per year in investment in oil and gas to make sure that the economy of the world keeps running. that is not only our responsible, stephen. it's the international community responsible. sure, but awkward questions are already being asked, for example, about the chair of cop 28, sultan aljaber of the uae. i wonder who by. who also happens to be the boss of adnoc, the oil corporation. do you think that this whole cop 28 thing could backfire on your region? no, it couldn't. we are ready, we are ready to share our opinion with the international community. cop 28 is not about the six

gcc countries alone. it's about the whole international community coming together to make sure that we have a safer planet for our children and grandchildren. it's not the gcc's responsibility, stephen. we don't need to make it the gcc's responsibility. it's, there are hundreds of other countries that produce oil and gas. it's not only the gcc. and we have to end there, but jasem albudaiwi, i thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you. thank you so much for having me. it's been a pleasure.

hello. thanks for tuning into our weather for the next week or so. and in summary, i'll tell you straightaway that it is staying cold for the rest of the week into the weekend and probably into early next week. sharp night frosts, a chance of some wintry showers. and then sometime next week, we could see things turning at least gradually, a little less cold and then eventually mild, wet and windy. but let's concentrate on the here and now. so thursday, cold and at times wet in the south of the country, maybe even some snow across dartmoor and exmoor. sunshine for so many of us further north and then wintry showers in northern and eastern scotland, also the north and the north east of england. and this is the evening on thursday. it remains cloudy and cold in the south with some damp weather. and again, those wintry showers further east, but also lots of clear spells. and it will be a cold morning on friday. a sharp frost look at that. city centres there minus four degrees celsius in birmingham and i suspect in rural spots it'll be a good deal colder than that. so it really is like the middle of winter at the moment. it's well below the average now.

friday, it's a cold and crisp day. some wintry showers here and there in the highlands and the pennines and the welsh hills. it'll stay around freezing all through the day. in city centres it's closer to around three degrees celsius. and friday and into the weekend that cold air stream keeps on coming in from the northern climes. but we are starting to see a little shift in the wind direction. just out towards the west of us, you can see just a gentle suggestion of these wind arrows coming in. more from the west, from the atlantic. and that's a sign that the air, the atmosphere at least is turning a little less cold, but close to the ground, it's still pretty chilly. in fact, look at these temperatures again on saturday, three or four in the south, typically around one or two in the north. but then saturday into sunday, these low pressures start to encroach and that is a sure sign. things are turning less cold. but of course, what happens when we have low pressures or racing

away in this cold air over us, there is still a risk of some wintry weather. so let's see what's happening then during this transition period. so on sunday, it looks like we'll see some wet and windy weather approaching south western parts of the uk. still that reservoir of colder air across scotland and then that low with its rain on the leading edge and snow for the north. look at that. you can see this is still a long way off into monday and the details can change. this could be all rain, probably snow across the mountains, but lower ground could be rain, could be some snow, but something that will be watching. to the south of that, it certainly looks like things will be turning milder, but still at this stage, four or five, six degrees celsius with cloud and rain doesn't feel particularly mild at all. i think we'll have to wait through the middle part of next week before we start to see these more substantially mild weather systems sweeping in. and if you look at this milder air current through wednesday, you can see the cold air has been pushed towards the north and the east and we get these

mild south westerlies. and with that also low pressure, a lot of isobars here, big pressure gradient. that means strong winds blowing around these areas of low pressure. so it's back to this sort of more typical autumn weather we would expect at this time of the year. so, yes, next week at some stage, we think it is going to turn milder and wetter. but until then, it's on the cold side. and remember, there's still a chance of some wintry dryness, some snow from time to time. bye bye.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm arunoday mukharji. lets get you the headlines.. celebrations as more hostages are released — ten israeli and four thai hostages held by hamas in gaza arrive in israel. talks continue over a possible further extension to the truce in gaza — it's due to end in the early hours of thursday. and the cop 28 climate change summit set to kick off, we look at the stakes and the solutions. live from our studio in singapore — this is bbc news. it's newsday.

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