voice—over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the temporary truce between israel and hamas in gaza has given relief workers the chance to do a stocktake on the scale of the humanitarian crisis. in short, it is grim. increased supplies of food, water and fuel have yet to match the needs of a population of more than two million, most of whom are now displaced. my guest today is philippe lazzarini, commissioner—general of the un's palestinian refugee agency, unrwa. with winter coming and israel still seemingly intent on resuming its military operation, will gaza soon be unliveable?

philippe lazzarini, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. well, it is a pleasure to have you in the studio, but i am very mindful thatjust a few days ago you were in gaza looking at your unrwa relief operations on the ground. you've come out, you've had a chance to reflect on what you saw. what were your overriding impressions? it was the second time i went to gaza since the war started, and my impression was that the humanitarian situation has significantly deteriorated.

as you said in the introduction, we have 1.7 million people who have been displaced. among them, one million are sheltering in united nations schools or warehouses and premises across the gaza strip. i visited one of these places in khan younis. it's a vocational training centre. we have 35,000 people there. it looked, in a certain extent, like a prison because people shut the door of the compound to prevent new people to come in this shelter... hang on. just let me get my mind around this. 35,000 displaced people in one compound, one facility? exactly. and this used to be a vocational training centre, a centre where we were training 1,000 youths to find job opportunities, and today this place is hosting 35,000 people. and basically all the people in this centre have left everything behind them — have left their house,

have left their belongings, have left a number of beloved ones, and they are literally living with absolutely nothing. i visited a family, a father with five children. they are living in a four—square—metre makeshift. they are sleeping on the concrete on the floor. they have no mattresses, they have no blankets. they have the same clothes for 45 days, now 50 days. and basically this story is the story of hundreds of thousands of people in the gaza strip. they feel that their dignity... they have been stripped of their dignity. the man just burst into tears when he was telling the story because they feel absolutely humiliated, powerless and useless. how much difference has this lull, this temporary truce, made in terms of getting significantly more basic relief supplies to people like those you've just described? we need much, much more.

i think this truce, this lull has primarily provided some respite. there is no bombardment. you see, again, some children in the street. people are reunifying. meanwhile, you have hostages who have also been released. but when it comes to the overall assistance, the 100 trucks coming into the gaza strip is not enough to reverse the negative impact of a siege which has now been imposed for more than 50 days. the un secretary general, just in the last few hours, has called it an "epic humanitarian catastrophe." just listening to you and also thinking of the pictures that we all see of the scale of destruction across gaza, how close to being unliveable is the gaza strip? you have today 80% of the population of gaza in the south —1.7, 1.8 —

which is half the gaza strip. the gaza strip was already considered before as being one of the most overcrowded places in the world, and now... it's only 370 square kilometres. exactly. and now you have the same population being squeezed in half this superficie. and clearly there is absolutely no capacity, including when it comes to water, water availability for such a large number of people. remaining in the south will definitely not be liveable for them. you are the boss of the un relief and works agency, which, in essence, has been one of those organisations that has kept gaza sort of functioning for years and years and years. in this war, since october 7th, i think i'm right in saying that you've lost more than 100 staff killed. you've also seen most of your facilities closed. all your schools are no longer functioning. i believe that most of your health clinics are no longer functioning.

how close is unrwa to collapse? i went to gaza last week to reassure the people in gaza that unrwa has no intention to leave the gaza strip, and we will do whatever is possible to scale up our response in gaza. if unrwa collapses, if unrwa leaves the gaza strip, the last glimpse of hope the palestinians have would also disappear and would be felt as a betrayal from the international community, so we have to do whatever is possible to keep the presence of unrwa, which is considered not only by the people in gaza, but also in the region, by the various countries, as being absolutely indispensable. we are today the last remaining big agency providing humanitarian assistance.

but to be brutal about it, it's not really in your gift as to whether you're able to function. it really depends on what israel chooses to do. now, you, very controversially, have said in recent days, and i'm quoting words that you used, "i believe there is a deliberate attempt to strangle "our operations and paralyse unrwa." that is an inflammatory claim. on what do you base it? i believe that there is a deliberate policy to keep the inflow of humanitarian assistance in gaza limited. look at what happened over the last few weeks. for a long time, we had a total siege. then we had a few trucks starting to come in. it's only recently, over

the last week and also during the truce, that the number of trucks entering into gaza have significantly increased. i mean, more than 200 a day, i believe, in recent days. 200 a day is far from being enough. before the war — and gaza was already under siege — we had more than 500 trucks a day, and this has led to a high dependency of the population vis a vis humanitarian organisations. today, we need more than the humanitarian assistance. we need also commercial trucks because entire markets, entire shops have been depleted. we have also a situation where municipalities are not providing critical services any more to the people. so these 200 trucks a day for 2.2 million people remain a drop — a drop compared to the immensity of the needs. but that's one thing, your belief that israel is still not allowing sufficient emergency relief

to reach the people of gaza. but another thing altogether is your... i want to understand if i've got this correct, but your belief that israel has specifically been targeting un and unrwa facilities. now, again, it's a hugely controversial claim. what evidence do you have? i have not said that. i have said that the un premises sheltering up to one million people today have not been respected either by israel or by other parties in the conflict here, in that case being hamas. we had around 100 incidents and more than 200 people who have been killed in united nations premises and more than 900 people have been injured. if you respect international humanitarian law, you have to respect the civil infrastructure, you have to respect civilians. and all these places, all these places have been duly notified not only to israel, but also to the de facto and

hamas. but israel would say that, in pursuit of its right to self—defence, that is its determination to root out hamas gunmen and operatives inside gaza, if they are embedded in yourfacilities, then israel, in the end, pursuing its right of self—defence, will have to go after them. and it is clear israel believes that, for one reason or another, unrwa has allowed its facilities to be used or at least proximity to your facilities to be used by hamas. this is totally untrue. there is no hamas operative in un school or un warehouses. iwould... i'm sorry to interrupt, but 8th of november,

times of israel, quoting the idf, saying they have located a tunnel entrance right next to an unrwa school in beit hanoun. just one case, but one example of the reason why israel says it has to go after hamas militants wherever they are, including next to your facilities. let's go back to your question. if there would be a hamas operator in our school, the state of israel or the idf would inform unrwa, saying the place is not safe any more, because we are sheltering thousands of people. this has not been the case until now, so there is no evidence about that. now, the information you are providing right now is an information coming from the north that we have left after ten days in the beginning of the conflict. we have no way to verify independently this information, and you are mentioning about a tunnel at proximity and not in the school. hmm.

we know that for years israel has suspected that there are elements within your unrwa staff who are either sympathetic to or active supporters of hamas. now, you have tens of thousands of staff in gaza. the vast majority of them are palestinian. how do you, as the boss of unrwa, vet them? how can you assure israel that you haven't got hamas operatives in your midst? so, we have 13,000 staff in gaza. in total, as an agency, 28,000 staff. they are all vetted, all vetted vis—a—vis their possible political affiliation, because there is an incompatibility between a political affiliation and being a un civil servant. but we are also, and this is less known, providing, once a year, our list of employees to the host government, in this situation to israel as the occupying power, and also to the palestinian authority. once a year, they are receiving the list. i never, never received

any doubt or complaint about the affiliation of the staff. there has been in the past one case before i came, and the person had to resign from the organisation. one more element of what i think it is fair to say is israel's deep suspicion of unrwa in gaza, and that is what is taught in unrwa schools. israeli officials point to what they claim is anti—semitic and pro—hamas literature in some of the books on the school curriculum. it's a claim that's been echoed, certainly by republican politicians in the united states. and when donald trump was president, he claimed that it was part of the evidence that showed unrwa was fundamentally flawed and he withdrew funding. so, how... again, how have you tried to ensure that that is not the case? first, i'm very proud of our education system. we are the only one

in the region having a proper human rights curriculum. we are the only one having promoted gender equality. we are the only one promoting critical thinking. besides that, there have been a number of prestigious experts, like the british council, like unesco, like the world bank, and even a famous institute in germany, commissioned by the european commission, the eckert institute, who all have concluded praising the quality of the education of the organisation. now, what is true also, stephen, is that we are operating in a highly divided and emotional environment. there is a lot... we are dealing with the longest lasting unresolved conflict and you have an israeli narrative, and you have a palestinian narrative. and they cannot agree necessarily on the narrative when they talk about the occupation, aboutjerusalem, about the two—state solution,

but the good thing in unrwa and in the un school is that we have an internationally agreed vocabulary, and this is exactly what's being taught in our school when there is the slightest disagreement. all right. i guess the nature of my questions is one indicator of the scrutiny and the pressure that you are under as the boss of unrwa. and ultimately, your obligation is to best and most effectively run a relief and humanitarian organisation. is it wise for you, wise for you, to enter the political arena, given this amount of pressure, and say things such as, "this war..." you say, "..has shown a total disregard "for international humanitarian law. " and you have pointed your finger, yes, at hamas for what they did on october 7th, but you have clearly pointed yourfinger also at israel for its conduct during this war.

is that wise? i do believe that as the head of a un agency, i need also to take a public position. we have also to promote a certain value. the massacre which has been committed by hamas isjust abhorrent, unspeakable, and needs to be vehemently condemned. 0n the other hand, when you are in a situation where you have a war which seems to be conducted without real rule of war, leading in 45 days to more than 10,000 women and children being killed, which is more than the total number of people being killed in two years�* time in ukraine, indeed, you question to which extent the international humanitarian law has been properly applied, especially when it comes to the proportionality and the number of civilians killed. so, i need to be blunt with you. you've been on the ground. you've talked to all of your staff on the ground.

are you saying that, in your mind, there is clear evidence that israel, as well as hamas on october 7th, but israel has committed war crimes? it's not up to me to determine if it needs to be qualified as a war crime. the only thing i'm saying, it is hard to believe with such a number of civilians that this is collateral. the nature, after that, of the crime will be determined by existing international legal instrument. it's not up to the head of unrwa to determine it. it's not up to the head of unrwa, but the head of unrwa listens to prime minister benjamin netanyahu. and i dare say the head of unrwa talks to some of netanyahu's key officials, because you need, as best you can, to cooperate with israel. and mr netanyahu said this, with regard to the whole question of international humanitarian law and war crimes. he said, "hamas terrorists deliberately implant themselves "in hospitals, schools, residential areas. "yes, in un facilities as well. "they fire their rockets,

thousands of them, from there. "if we, the democracies," says netanyahu, "accept and say that under no circumstances "should we go in to get hamas in these places "because civilians tragically get killed, "then we have lost." do you see his point? there is absolutely nothing which would justify that we use public infrastructure or civilians as a human shield. would this be the case, that would be indeed a war crime. so i understand the difficulties in an extraordinarily overcrowded environment like it is in gaza, but that means also that you have to redouble the effort when it comes to the principle of proportionality or distinction. there have never, ever been, over the last five, six, conflicts in gaza, such a disproportionate number of women and children killed in such a short time.

are unrwa officials talking to, making contact with investigators, including the international criminal court? is that something that you would do? i'm not aware that any investigation has started yet. we will have to see in... 0ur relation with the international court is also regulated by the un and the international court. let me ask you about what comes next. we know that the israeli military has been dropping leaflets in the south of gaza, in places like khan younis, incredibly crowded — you talked about khan younis earlier — telling palestinians that they must now leave and go to what the israelis are saying is a safe zone, which appears to be a little strip of land right next to the coast known as al—mawasi. now, do you believe that

to save lives, palestinians should, and indeed must, now heed israel's next set of instructions? to save lives, we have to respect the shelters under the un flag, where hundreds of thousands of people are currently seeking refuge and protection. that's what we need to do. yeah, but what we've just been discussing is israel's claim and belief that hamas is still deeply embedded in places now in the south, like khan younis and rafah, which it appears — if this temporary ceasefire ends — will be their next focus. so just in terms of saving life, will the un, as netanyahu now wants, set up tent camps in this deserted patch of land known as al—mawasi? there is no safe zone that you designate unilaterally

in a war zone which will provide protection to the civilian. the civilians were asked to leave gaza city and the north of the gaza strip to go to the south, because they were told it would be safer. it comes out that about 40% of the people killed have been in the south, because bombardment have absolutely not spared the south. if they go in a unilaterally designated zone, which is pretending to be safe, if you have fighters coming in, who will guarantee the protection of these people? i don't believe... this is a big deal. i mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand it, the israelis have directly asked you and other un agencies to cooperate and you have been part of a joint statement from un agencies a few days ago saying, quote, "we will not participate in the establishment "of any so—called safe zone in gaza "that is set up without the agreement of all parties." could that come back to haunt you, do you think?

so, the last time you had a safe haven in europe was in bosnia—herzegovina and ended up with the only genocide post—world war ii in europe, which was srebrenica, and that was declared a safe haven by the security council. you cannot declare, in a war zone, unilaterally a safe zone. you have too many other parties in the conflict. unilaterally, who will guarantee the protection of these people? as a humanitarian organisation, we cannot promote the false illusion to people that they will be protected in an area that no—one can really protect. what do you think the endgame is here for the israelis? you do talk to the israelis. i'm mindful of things said by ministers like avi dichter, who said not long ago that what we are seeing is, in his words, "the gaza nakba." that, he said,

is how it will end. and we know what he means by nakba. that means the mass displacement of palestinians from their homes, as we saw in 19118, and as some israelis believe we will see in 2023 with palestinians leaving gaza. is that something conceivable to you? this is definitely an issue which fuels a lot of anxiety among the palestinians, but also across the region. and would such a scenario unfold, that would certainly further deepen the polarisation in the region and further bring away any possible peace prospects in the future. i really hope that this is not the scenario which will unfold and that the scenario which will unfold is that we finally bring back to the table and make it a real priority, the two—state solution. this has been neglected forfar too long, has not been a priority of the international community for far too long,

and that should be the last wake—up call that the region cannot afford to continue to live without solving this conflict. philippe lazzarini, we have to end there, but i do thank you for joining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello. there are still a number of the cold days before things turn milder well in week.

fresh snowfall during thursday and friday and into parts of southwest england. a couple of snowmen standing testament to that. but did you know, november snow really unusual in the uk. these white areas show that over the last 30 years on average, we kept much less than a day of lying snow on the ground for the vast majority of us with snow tending to be limited to the higher hills across the pennines and the mountains of scotland during november. now, the other feature of the weather, of course, is it's freezing cold and we're starting off again friday morning with the temperatures plummeting down to about minus eight in the countryside. watch out for icy stretches, particularly where they feed in across eastern areas and where we've seen the snow and rain across the south as well. a few mist and fog patches to clear out of the way, but otherwise, most of the uk with a fine day with sunshine. showers continue to feed in off the north sea and they'll probably tend back towards rain and sleet towards the coastline, but inland with these kinds of temperatures, you could see some further flurries of snow

just about anywhere across the eastern side of the uk. but no great amounts expected. that takes us into friday night and again largely clear skies. could have a few showers working into western areas where things could turn icy. but temperatures, i wouldn't mind betting, could get down to about minus 10 in the coldest spots in rural scotland. so a particularly bitter night and a really cold start to saturday. into that cold air, we have a weak weather front that's going to be moving in from the west and this brings the prospect of more wintry weather. here comes that front bringing with it some patches of rain, sleet and snow to northern ireland, spreading to parts of scotland, england and wales through the day. now, i suspect the snow may well tend to be confined to hilly areas really with lower areas probably more likely on balance to see rain and sleet with this this temperature. but temperatures struggling and not getting much above freezing so cold weather. into sunday, low pressure

moving in from the west, but there's a lot of uncertainty about how quickly this is going to move in. this is one of the quickest models and so if this was to be right, we'd be looking at some rain moving in from the west, maybe with a little bit of snow on the leading edge. and eventually, the weather would be milderfrom the southwest. but notice, it stays dry and cold in the northeast of the uk. bear in mind if that area of low pressure ends up being slower the rain would be slower to get in. the transition to slightly milder air would also be slower and more of us would have dry weather with sunnier spells but cold weather. beyond that for monday and tuesday, the uncertainty is still with us, really. i suspect the overall theme is that it stays cold with a mixture of sunny spells and a few wintry showers. any snow probably tending to be confined to hills, really. and through the latter part of next week, it's then that we start to see the jet stream amplify, get bigger, in other words. these wave patterns, and it's this that ultimately is likely to bring us some milder air. and so, a very gradual

rise in temperatures, but i think towards the middle or maybe the end of next week, we'll be looking at temperatures getting back closer to average for this time of year after this really lengthy spell of cold weather. but before we get there, we have got some further severe frost to contend with. bye for now.

v0|ce—0ver: live from london, this is bbc news. a temporary ceasefire in gaza that has lasted seven days, has expired. it comes as israel says it has intercepted a rocket launched from gaza. these are life pictures coming from the region #. also on the programme: world leaders gather to discuss tackling climate change at a un summit in dubai. we're live in dubai as officials gather for the c0 p28 summit. setting out their latest covid pledges. _ the covid—19 inquiry continues, as former health secretary matt hancock admits the uk should have locked down earlier.