aware of long—term consequences of infection did that understanding feed its way into the debate about the mechanics of non—pharmaceutical interventions and then subsequently the relaxation of restrictions? what role and to what extent did the issue of long covid play out in the debate about the mechanics? it matters because it makes the virus even worse, it makes the impact of the virus even worse. and so reinforce the arguments that we were making of course the best way to avoid long covid is to take the measures necessary to reduce the amount of covid. and so it actually calls for the same policy prescription in terms of preventing

covid and therefore tough measures to keep r below one but also required more research and support from the nhs who found it quite difficult because it was a new disease and because of its nature presenting in many different ways, they found that long tarmac difficult to categorise at first and so with simon stephens will work together to bring forward clinics that could look across the range of conditions that are mostly gathered under the term long covid. i cared a lot about this for personal reasons as well as professional. we did not need to sign off from the centre, we just got on with it. do you happen to know, notwithstanding the early days of 2020, the campaign about long covid

wasn't launched until october, do you know why there was that potential lag in the communication side of the debate?— side of the debate? yes, i think it was essentially _ side of the debate? yes, i think it was essentially bleak, _ was essentially bleak, understandably the clinicians found it hard to get a handle on exactly what the term meant a first. i knew what the term meant a first. i knew what it meant and those suffering from it knew what it meant. but turning that into a formal protocol would normally have taken a lot longer, but it was one of those things that happened, some months for the clinicians to put it together. i think we decided to do that, itjune orjuly 2020 at the roundtable meeting you mentioned? the 31stjuly, yes. b�*ist roundtable meeting you mentioned? the 31stjuly. yes-— the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. _ the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it _ the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was - the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was put - the 31st july, yes. 31st ofjuly, which i convene. it was put in | which i convene. it was put in around six weeks from then. although that looks low in the context of the pandemic, that is fast in the normal context of medical response to

innovative problems. particularly the ublic innovative problems. particularly the public facing _ innovative problems. particularly the public facing side? _ innovative problems. particularly the public facing side? yes, - the public facing side? yes, clinicians, _ the public facing side? yes, clinicians, understandably, | the public facing side? 1&1: clinicians, understandably, wanted an answer to the question, what exactly is long covid before they would go out and say, we are having a campaign on this. that was a piece of work, of course i wish it had gone faster and i was pushing it, but nevertheless i can understand the reasons why it took as long as it did. ., , the reasons why it took as long as it did. . , ., ., ., it did. finally, in relation to disparities, _ it did. finally, in relation to disparities, your— it did. finally, in relation to disparities, your witness i it did. finally, in relation to - disparities, your witness statement makes plain that you are obviously aware from a very early stage on the clinical vulnerabilities of disparities from coronavirus i9? disparities from coronavirus 19? yes. ., ., ., ., yes. you were aware of the risk factors from _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early _ yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early stage - yes. you were aware of the risk factors from an early stage and| yes. you were aware of the risk - factors from an early stage and you explain how he became aware of the terrible figures showing

disproportionate numbers of black people and black minority ethnic health care workers being hospitalised and often dying? yes. you contributed _ hospitalised and often dying? yes. you contributed to _ hospitalised and often dying? 133 you contributed to the process which sage and other bodies looked at this issue. did you also commission work through public health england, there was a rapid review, ithink through public health england, there was a rapid review, i think on the 12th of may, then a full review on the 31st of may and then did you also contributed the decision that further work and the reports be ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? . ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? , ., , ultimately commissioned to kemi badenoch? , . ., , badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of _ badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of the - badenoch? yes, i was particularly struck by the death of the first. struck by the death of the first four nhs doctors, three of whom were from an ethnic minority background. i was acutely aware of the disproportionate impact on those

from ethnic minority backgrounds, especially amongst the wider nhs workforce as well, notjust the doctors and nurses, but more broadly, including porters and other staff who do vital work and often are very closely in contact with patients. so this was something i was worried about from early in the pandemic. in fact, worked on this before the pandemic, including raising the issues of discrimination within the nhs and there was work under way on a particularly difficult issue that came up in nhs bt. i was aware of it from the start and i was very glad when kemi badenoch was tasked by the prime minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this. my

minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this.— minister to lead and really get to the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions _ the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions for _ the bottom of this. my lady, those are all my questions for mr - the bottom of this. my lady, those i are all my questions for mr hancock. thank you very much. are you going first? _ thank you, my lady. mr hancock, i ask questions in behalf of covid bereaved families forjustice uk and northern ireland, who sit behind me and we represent over 7000 bereaved families. bereaved by covid. many who sit behind me and many who have lost families in care homes. so my questions are sent at high level on the decision on the 19th of march to discharge untested hospital patient into those care homes. yesterday, he accepted in evidence that on the 15th of may 2020, at a press

conference he said that right from the start, we try to throw protective ring around care homes. the context of my questions is to probe with you, your claim you had taken the steps right from the start or at all. . i taken the steps right from the start or at all. yes. i will take you through _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some of _ or at all. yes. i will take you through some of the - or at all. yes. i will take you through some of the key - or at all. yes i will take you through some of the key dates or at all. 1e3 i will take you through some of the key dates at the start of the pandemic and examine what was known or ought to have been known by you and your department and how that informed the decisions that were made on the 19th of march. ok. can we first on—screen, page two. this is the minutes of adult social care coronavirus meeting. thank you. it is action three, please. thank

you very much. thank you. it says it was noted at .7, the 11th of february 2020. commented they were likely to be three ways the virus can enter a care home, infected people moving into homes, staff and visitors. that should be considered during the response phase. yes. what was done to — during the response phase. 13:3 what was done to minimise those three different routes of infection prior to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march? this to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march?— to the hospital discharge policy on the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th — the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of— the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of february. _ the 19th of march? this document is from the 11th of february. correct. i from the 11th of february. correct. in context. _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were _ from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were under - from the 11th of february. correct. in context, there were under five l in context, there were under five cases in the uk at that point, it was early on and how we were going to handle the pandemic. it was clear from this point that the virus had its biggest impact on those who are

older and had underlying vulnerabilities. we knew there was a problem and we knew there was a significant and specific risk for those who lived in care homes and in particular, care homes that looked after older people. find particular, care homes that looked after older people.— after older people. and in particular— after older people. and in particular these _ after older people. and in particular these three - after older people. and in l particular these three ways after older people. and in - particular these three ways present three potential breaks to any circle any ring of care, is that fair to say? any ring of care, is that fair to sa ? . any ring of care, is that fair to sa ? , ., , , ., , ~ any ring of care, is that fair to sa? , y~ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, _ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in _ say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms - say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms of- say? yes, absolutely. we considered these throughout, in terms of how i say? yes, absolutely. we considered| these throughout, in terms of how we could better support and protect people in care homes. in fact, their work had already started before this and we had the first adult social care national steering group for instance, on the 5th of february. i will come back to some of those steering group minutes later. can we have on the screen, the next paper on page two. this is the 24th of

february now. this is a response to a question that has been proposed to them if there is an evidence of a cluster of covid—i9 cases in the uk, what would the phe proposal be? if there is an assumed outbreak of five to 25 cases, phe advises that no discharges be made from hospitals to care homes whilst there is a cluster of cases in the hospital during the containment phase. a little further down, in terms of the highlight. can the highlight be expanded lower down, please? it is in the middle,

that paragraph. no discharge to residential care homes. on the 24th of february 2020, the phe are making it clear there should be no discharge to care homes because of the risk of infections that will create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. _ create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not - create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not at - create, is that correct? i didn't see this document. not at the | create, is that correct? i didn't - see this document. not at the time. but my reading of the document as you have presented it to me is that in the case of an outbreak in the care home, then there should be no discharges to that care home. that is my reading of it. but this is a phe document that i wasn't aware of. it is as it is, the evidence is there. . 1' it is as it is, the evidence is there. . ~' it is as it is, the evidence is there. ., ~ ., ., ., there. thank you. you have mentioned there. thank you. you have mentioned the national — there. thank you. you have mentioned the national steering _ there. thank you. you have mentioned the national steering group _ the national steering group meetings, they took place in february, the 19th and 26th of

february, the 19th and 26th of february, they have been expressing serious concerns about the availability of tpe in care homes, in particular we can go to them if you would like to, but on the 26th of february, there was hard evidence of february, there was hard evidence of ppe stock being requisitioned for nhs use, is that correct? i am of ppe stock being requisitioned for nhs use, is that correct?— nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that. _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you _ nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you want - nhs use, is that correct? i am not aware of that, but if you want to i aware of that, but if you want to put of evidence showing that. what i would say is that on ppe, it was obvious from january there was going to be a problem with ppe. at the end ofjanuary, i agreed to to be a problem with ppe. at the end of january, i agreed to the recommendation that we should release the ppe stockpile and i also requested that we started buying ppe in size. as an in large scale, which we did. it was a global challenge, because suddenly everywhere in the world was trying to buy ppe. also, there is another structural point, which is care homes and all social

care is legally responsible to local authorities and is commissioned by local authorities and there is a structural problem, which is that the responsibility and policy questions inevitably, especially in a crisis flow to the national government, but the levers, the policy, the formal policy and all of the legals are in the hands of local government and so we started this with the social care sector in need of reform, where the reforms hadn't happened and the formal legal responsibility was for local authorities. i responsibility was for local authorities.— responsibility was for local authorities. , ., ., , authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking — authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about _ authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is _ authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is what - authorities. i understand that, but what i'm asking about is what is i what i'm asking about is what is known by your department about methods and equipment that could keep care home resident safe, in terms of how you then set your policy and what you dictate should happen. so let's look at the steering group minutes together.

specifically on this point about the nhs requisitioned. page two again and the top action on page two. action. concerns about nhs iii and hard evidence provided failing to get phe they paid for as it's requisitioned for the nhs. don't need to dig too deep beneath this in terms of logistical matters but it is clear the department is aware from stakeholders they are not only concerned about ppe but getting what they have paid for? that concerned about ppe but getting what they have paid for?— they have paid for? that is what it sa s. they have paid for? that is what it says- thank _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the _ they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the end - they have paid for? that is what it says. thank you. at the end of. says. thank you. at the end of february. _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the _ says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the 26th - says. thank you. at the end of february, that is the 26th of i february, that is the 26th of february, that is the 26th of february, it suggest it is obvious for your department that care homes where a venerable population, i think you have agreed with that... absolutely, yes.— absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of _ absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, _ absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, you - absolutely, yes. with multiple sources of infection, you have| sources of infection, you have agreed with that and real problems,

i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would you agree? i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would ou auree? . i suggest, with obtaining ppe? would you agree? yes. moving into march. we told mr— you agree? 133 moving into march. we told mr keith yesterday that helen whately had come to the very firm view on or around the second that plans for the care sector were nonexistent or inadequate, your words, and she was messaging about that. in early march, she also had concerns, she says in her statement about the inability to obtain timely and accurate data about covid—i9 deaths in the care home sector. in stark contrast to the data available in the health care setting. absolutely, yes.— in the health care setting. absolutely, yes. in the health care setting. absolutel , es. ~ ., ., absolutely, yes. what was done, if an hinu absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in — absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early — absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march _ absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march to - absolutely, yes. what was done, if anything in early march to rectify i anything in early march to rectify this lack of data? we anything in early march to rectify this lack of data?— anything in early march to rectify this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe _ this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe got - this lack of data? we acted to try to make sure that ppe got to - this lack of data? we acted to try | to make sure that ppe got to care homes and took action on that front. not least responding to the concerns

that had been raised by the sector and in terms of data, gathering data was extremely difficult because of the lack of a direct relationship, contractual relationship between the department and care homes. unlike the department's direct relationship with the nhs. tqm. the department's direct relationship with the nhs-— with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe auain, ou with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again. you said _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in your _ with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppe again, you said in your statement | with the nhs. 0k, touching on ppei again, you said in your statement on the 5th of march, helen whately continued to warn that ppe provision in care homes was inadequate? yes. in care homes was inadequate? yes, she was very — in care homes was inadequate? yes, she was very worried _ in care homes was inadequate? 133 she was very worried about it. she met the chief social worker on the 4th met the chief social worker on the ltth of march as well to discuss the concerns around the preparations in care homes. what this all demonstrates is as much action as possible from the top of the department to try to solve these problems, which ultimately started with the structural make up of social care, which is a decision that can trace its origins back to the foundation of the nhs in 19118.

as we will see later from another document, ppe was only sent out to care homes on or around the 19th of march, the same day discharge of thousands of patients was ordered. i will come back to that. chronologically moving forward to the 6th of march, you open the departmental meeting of social care. can we have that on the screen please. it is page one, the first bullet point, please. thank you. secretary of state opens the meeting ijy secretary of state opens the meeting by stating the impact of coronavirus which poses a complicated set of problems on the social care sector, due to the higher risk for older people and the need to be gripped as soon as possible. what people and the need to be gripped as soon as possible.— soon as possible. what this and the cast list demonstrate _ soon as possible. what this and the cast list demonstrate is _ soon as possible. what this and the cast list demonstrate is the - cast list demonstrate is the seriousness with which we took this concern and this problem. you have me, threejunior ministers, jenny me, three junior ministers, jenny harries, jonathan me, threejunior ministers, jenny harries, jonathan van tam, so two of

the deputy chief medical officers and the permanent secretary of the department. this is a very pop—macro ——... this is the leadership of the department of state in no uncertain terms, as you can see, the concerns that we had around this, that i had around this and to work out the best we could do about it. it around this and to work out the best we could do about it.— we could do about it. it says it needs to _ we could do about it. it says it needs to be — we could do about it. it says it needs to be gripped _ we could do about it. it says it needs to be gripped as - we could do about it. it says it needs to be gripped as soon i we could do about it. it says it| needs to be gripped as soon as possible. needs to be gripped as soon as ossible. ., . needs to be gripped as soon as possible- mr _ needs to be gripped as soon as possible.- mr hancock, j needs to be gripped as soon as i possible.- mr hancock, if needs to be gripped as soon as - possible.- mr hancock, if he possible. correct. mr hancock, if he had been trying _ possible. correct. mr hancock, if he had been trying to _ possible. correct. mr hancock, if he had been trying to grip _ possible. correct. mr hancock, if he had been trying to grip from - possible. correct. mr hancock, if he had been trying to grip from the - had been trying to grip from the start to throw protective ring around, why hadn't it been gripped before the 6th of march? this around, why hadn't it been gripped before the 6th of march?— before the 6th of march? this is a departmental— before the 6th of march? this is a departmental meeting _ before the 6th of march? this is a departmental meeting and - before the 6th of march? this is a departmental meeting and the . departmental meeting and the situation of the government going into the crisis was that care homes are contracted by local authorities and as you'll see in some of the earlier documentation, the role of the department is around policy over social care and the contractual

arrangements are local and don't report into us. what happened was that in early march, helen whately brought to my attention on the third, she didn't think enough was being done through local authorities, the local resilience forum, which with the formal places where it was supposed to be done, so we called a meeting three days later. so this demonstrates the department getting stuck in because not enough is happening. so department getting stuck in because not enough is happening.— not enough is happening. so you are concerned not _ not enough is happening. so you are concerned not enough _ not enough is happening. so you are concerned not enough is _ not enough is happening. so you are concerned not enough is happening, j concerned not enough is happening, you are come as you say, trying to take a grip of it as soon as possible. take a grip of it as soon as possible-— take a grip of it as soon as possible.- moving - take a grip of it as soon as possible. yes. moving forward to the 9th of possible. 133 moving forward to the 9th of march, a cobra set of notes. it is 0.5 in highlight, when we get there. thank you. the cmo says there is three stages of intervention with varying efficacy. one, self

isolation of symptomatic individuals, full household isolation where one individual is symptomatic and undetermined measures to safeguard the elderly and vulnerable individuals. itruihat and vulnerable individuals. what date is this? _ and vulnerable individuals. what date is this? the _ and vulnerable individuals. what date is this? the 9th _ and vulnerable individuals. what date is this? the 9th of - and vulnerable individuals. what date is this? the 9th of march, i and vulnerable individuals. what i date is this? the 9th of march, mr hancock. date is this? the 9th of march, mr hancock- so _ date is this? the 9th of march, mr hancock. so why, _ date is this? the 9th of march, mr hancock. so why, given _ date is this? the 9th of march, mr hancock. so why, given the - hancock. so why, given the information your department had by the 9th of march and the measures described in this cobra meeting, to safeguard individuals, elderly and vulnerable including those in care homes been described as undetermined? brute homes been described as undetermined?— homes been described as undetermined? ~ . undetermined? we were putting toaether undetermined? we were putting together the _ undetermined? we were putting together the shielding _ undetermined? we were putting i together the shielding programme. which was ultimately extremely successful and the evidences, those who were shielded were half as likely to die of covid due to the shielding measures. that this external research that has been done since. so clearly, this was a very important area that we were working on. at this point on the 9th of

march, there were fewer than two deaths in the uk. so we needed, we clearly needed to be doing their work, and we were.— clearly needed to be doing their work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th — work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th of— work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th of march _ work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th of march when _ work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th of march when the - work, and we were. between the ninth and the 17th of march when the nhs i and the 17th of march when the nhs written direction to hospitals came out, stating that beds should be emptied, what concrete steps were taken by the department to put in place for protective measures for care home specifically? brute place for protective measures for care home specifically? we issued uuidance care home specifically? we issued guidance and _ care home specifically? we issued guidance and we _ care home specifically? we issued guidance and we also, _ care home specifically? we issued guidance and we also, as - care home specifically? we issued guidance and we also, as you - care home specifically? we issued| guidance and we also, as you said, issued or at least made the decision that care homes should receive free ppe. most care homes are private organisations and two had always bought their own ppe. we decided they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned _ they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned had _ they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned had been _ they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned had been the - they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned had been the 13th - they should get free ppe. the garden she mentioned had been the 13th of i she mentioned had been the 13th of march? the she mentioned had been the 13th of march?- we _ she mentioned had been the 13th of march?- we will— she mentioned had been the 13th of march?- we will come - she mentioned had been the 13th of| march?- we will come back march? the 13th. we will come back to that so chronologically, _ march? the 13th. we will come back to that so chronologically, the - to that so chronologically, the

first notification of an outbreak in a care home, said the day after this cobra meeting. the 17th of march, the nhs direction written to hospitals was issued. on the 18th of march, according to phe reports compiled later on the 1st ofjune, care home mortality data had been reported to you as part of a sick reported to you as part of a sick rep to the gh in yourself. the 19th of march, the key date i am going to suggest, nine days after the first notification of a positive case in the care home, the 10th of march, the care home, the 10th of march, the phe was aware of 37 outbreaks in care homes stop i take that from a set of imt meeting minutes. page numberfour set of imt meeting minutes. page number four please. set of imt meeting minutes. page numberfour please. it set of imt meeting minutes. page number four please. it is under the bold heading in those bullet points please, if they could be highlighted. nursing home outbreaks, as of yesterday, this is the 19th of

march, we are talking about the 18th in fact, 37 ongoing outbreaks, all health care protection are getting multiple calls from care homes and these are likely to result in deaths over the next three to five days. you also see the bottom bullet point, there are 2a,000 care homes in england, delivery of ppe is starting today. this is the free ppe you touched upon a moment ago being sent out from central resources to care homes, yes? sent out from central resources to care homes. yes?— sent out from central resources to care homes, yes? yes. this is the 19th of march. _ care homes, yes? 133 this is the 19th of march, known there is 37 outbreaks, guidance is issues to discharge patients from hospital to care home settings without any testing in place? the care home settings without any testing in place?— testing in place? the testing ca aci testing in place? the testing capacity was _ testing in place? the testing capacity was much _ testing in place? the testing capacity was much too - testing in place? the testing capacity was much too smallj testing in place? the testing i capacity was much too small at testing in place? the testing - capacity was much too small at this point. capacity was much too small at this oint. ~ capacity was much too small at this oint, 3 ., .. , capacity was much too small at this oint. 3 ., .. , ., capacity was much too small at this oint. , ., , , point. we accepted that yesterday and that is helpful, _ point. we accepted that yesterday and that is helpful, but _ point. we accepted that yesterday and that is helpful, but given - point. we accepted that yesterday and that is helpful, but given the l and that is helpful, but given the testing capacity was too limited to be able to test any of those hospital patients due for discharge,

what other concrete measures were put in place to ensure stringent infection controls was present in care homes. it infection controls was present in care homes-— infection controls was present in care homes. it was set out in the document _ care homes. it was set out in the document published, _ care homes. it was set out in the document published, based - care homes. it was set out in the document published, based on i document published, based on clinical advice. yesterday we discussed the matter of asymptomatic transmission, which is important here. because that clinical advice was based on the presumption that the transmission mechanism of covid was the same as the transmission mechanism of sars because those making the advice at phe were confident in changing this option. without testing anybody, you don't know if they are asymptomatic, positive or negative? but know if they are asymptomatic, positive or negative?— know if they are asymptomatic, positive or negative? but we didn't have enough _ positive or negative? but we didn't have enough test. _ positive or negative? but we didn't have enough test. this _ positive or negative? but we didn't have enough test. this is - positive or negative? but we didn't have enough test. this is the - positive or negative? but we didn't have enough test. this is the 19th| have enough test. this is the 19th of march, on the 17th of march i had taken responsibility for testing from phe into the department because it wasn't going fast enough. i knew there was a problem and i was acting

on it. ., ., ., , ., on it. you need that there was a roblem on it. you need that there was a problem but _ on it. you need that there was a problem but still _ on it. you need that there was a problem but still that _ on it. you need that there was a problem but still that for - on it. you need that there was a problem but still that for those l problem but still that for those patients to be discharged from hospital? patients to be discharged from hosital? . . patients to be discharged from hosital? ., , , , ., hospital? that is because if we had left them in _ hospital? that is because if we had left them in hospital— hospital? that is because if we had left them in hospital they - hospital? that is because if we had left them in hospital they were - hospital? that is because if we had i left them in hospital they were more likely to have caught because of the risks of nosocomial infection. as the gardener case file, it was rational and reasonable to make sure that they were in the safest place that they were in the safest place that they were in the safest place that they could be. i fear, that they were in the safest place that they could be. ifear, and that they were in the safest place that they could be. i fear, and this is the only choice is between bad options here, ifeared that is the only choice is between bad options here, i feared that if he had left those patients in hospital, those who were medically fit to discharge, there is a high likelihood that more would have caught covid on the problem could have been bigger. i have gone over and over in my head what... the decisions we took and saved for the

point about asymptomatic transmission, which we went over in detail yesterday, every decision was a choice between difficult options and nobody has yet brought to me a solution to this problem that was... i think, even with hindsight, would have resulted in more lives saved stop you can put as many... if there is one, i want to know about it because it is quite crucial we learn these lessons. i because it is quite crucial we learn these lessons.— these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave _ these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave it _ these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave it there. _ these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave it there. i _ these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave it there. i know - these lessons. i am afraid we will have to leave it there. i know it i these lessons. i am afraid we willj have to leave it there. i know it is an important— have to leave it there. i know it is an important issue but we will have more _ an important issue but we will have more time — an important issue but we will have more time dedicated to care. we will have to leave — more time dedicated to care. we will have to leave it _ more time dedicated to care. we will have to leave it there. _ more time dedicated to care. we will have to leave it there. can _ more time dedicated to care. we will have to leave it there. can i - have to leave it there. can i suggest one document for mr hancock because he has raised the issue of guidance to care homes, if i make? the 13th of march guidance he mentioned, just to clarify with you, mr hancock, that guidance issued to care homes stated there was no isolation facilities in place? that

uuidance isolation facilities in place? that guidance was — isolation facilities in place? that guidance was based on clinical advice. it was published at the time. i advice. it was published at the time. ., ,., advice. it was published at the time. ., , ., ., ., time. i am so sorry, we have a lot of questions _ time. i am so sorry, we have a lot of questions to — time. i am so sorry, we have a lot of questions to get _ time. i am so sorry, we have a lot of questions to get through. - time. i am so sorry, we have a lot of questions to get through. as i i of questions to get through. as i say, _ of questions to get through. as i say, we — of questions to get through. as i say, we will return to this very important _ say, we will return to this very important subject in another module. miss harris _ important sub'ect in another module. miss harris. . 4, important sub'ect in another module. miss harris. ., ~ , ., , . miss harris. thank you very much. good morning. _ miss harris. thank you very much. good morning, my _ miss harris. thank you very much. good morning, my lady _ miss harris. thank you very much. good morning, my lady and - miss harris. thank you very much. good morning, my lady and good i good morning, my lady and good morning mr hancock. my appear on behalf of covid—i9 bereaved families forjustice for families behalf of covid—i9 bereaved families forjustice forfamilies in behalf of covid—i9 bereaved families forjustice for families in wales. i would like to ask you some questions within the time i have available to me and i will stop when my time is up, regardless of how far i have got. there's questions are about care homes again, i am afraid and also about arrangements for relations between the uk government and the devolved administrations. first of all, if i may touch upon another matter relating to care homes, the same general theme

specifically with regards to movement of care home workers between uk care homes and we had about that yesterday. i would just like to pick up on one further point with regards to the timing of the intervention that there was from the department of health and social care and two—year initiative in mid may of 2020. if i could just briefly highlight a few points about the evidence so far on this issue. yesterday you referred to them needing to find a balance between what you referred to as two unpalatable outcomes and referred to there having been worries about not having enough staff in care homes. and you obviously mentioned the guidance of the recommendations which were brought in in mid may 2020, so action was taken in this area then, which included also infection prevention... studio: you are watching bbc news

and we are bringing you the covid inquiry live from central london as the former health secretary, matt hancock, continues to give evidence. we are breaking away from that for a moment and just to give you a recap on what he has been saying as he has continued to face questions focusing on schools, saying school closures may have been avoided if we had locked down sooner. he explained he thought the tier system didn't work and accused regional leaders are putting politics ahead of public health. he also spoke about his affair, some will have remembered, with his aide which meant he broke his own lockdown rules, saying it was important that those who made the rules do abide by them. if you want to carry on watching the covid inquiry, head to our website. we have our reporters who are inside the requiring reporting live.

the ceasefire is over. israel resumes air strikes. the hamas run health ministry says dozens have been killed. hamas are blamed for breaking the ceasefire terms. the other top story this morning. world leaders are in dubai to talk climate change, king charles urges them to make cop28 a turning point. some im ortant make cop28 a turning point. some important progress _ make cop28 a turning point. some important progress has _ make cop28 a turning point. some important progress has been - make cop28 a turning point. fin: important progress has been made but it worries me greatly that we remain so dreadfully far off track.