we are breaking away from our international coverage to bring new continued coverage here in the uk of the covert inquiry. the former health secretary matt hancock is continuing to give evidence in london today, let's cross over life to the inquiry and take a listen in. i was aware of their public communications and if they wrote to me privately, i would have been aware of that, too. i was also aware of the overriding need to keep our below one in order to make sure the virus affected as few people as possible, especially older people who could catch it from their younger relatives or contact with younger relatives or contact with younger people. younger relatives or contact with younger maple-— younger people. you're not suggesting. _ younger people. you're not suggesting, are _ younger people. you're not suggesting, are you - younger people. you're not suggesting, are you mr - younger people. you're not - suggesting, are you mr hancock, younger people. you're not _ suggesting, are you mr hancock, that relaxing _ suggesting, are you mr hancock, that relaxing the rules in relation to children— relaxing the rules in relation to children would have taken the odd number— children would have taken the odd number above children would have taken the odd numberabove one, are children would have taken the odd number above one, are you? children would have taken the odd numberabove one, are you? gf children would have taken the odd number above one, are you? of course i am. that number above one, are you? of course i am- that is — number above one, are you? of course i am. that is the _ number above one, are you? of course i am. that is the clear _ number above one, are you? of course i am. that is the clear medical - i am. that is the clear medical

position. —— r number. one of the things we discovered was children could pass the disease on to children and whilst both asymptomatic, they could then pass it on to older relatives. so, yes, that was one of the many things we had to contend with, yes. you that was one of the many things we had to contend with, yes.— had to contend with, yes. you are sa in: had to contend with, yes. you are saying you — had to contend with, yes. you are saying you received _ had to contend with, yes. you are saying you received medical- had to contend with, yes. you are | saying you received medical advice to that _ saying you received medical advice to that effect?— saying you received medical advice to that effect? yes. was it expert advice, to that effect? yes. was it expert advice. you _ to that effect? yes. was it expert advice. you are — to that effect? jazz was it expert advice, you are saying? to that effect? yes. was it expert advice, you are saying? without i to that effect? yes. was it expert i advice, you are saying? without any notice of this _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line of _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line of questioning, i notice of this line of questioning, i can't give you the precise details of the documents, but it was clearly understood... my clear understanding and essentially a consensus position that we reached. this is all obviously extremely unfortunate. it's one of the consequences of the fight this disease passes from one person to another when you don't have symptoms. mr person to another when you don't have symptoms-— person to another when you don't have symptoms. mr hancock, even in janua have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 — have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when — have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we _ have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went _ have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went into - have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went into the l january 2021 when we went into the third lockdown when children under

five were _ third lockdown when children under five were exempt from the regulations, in england, children aged— regulations, in england, children aged five— regulations, in england, children aged five to 12 who were too young to leave _ aged five to 12 who were too young to leave home independently were not simitarly— to leave home independently were not similarly exempted as they were in scotland _ similarly exempted as they were in scotland and wales, you know that, don't _ scotland and wales, you know that, don't you? — scotland and wales, you know that, don't you? i�*m scotland and wales, you know that, don't ou? �* .. .. scotland and wales, you know that, don't ou? �* ., ., ., don't you? i'm aware of the different — don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. - don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. 1. don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. i am. don't you? i'm aware of the . different regulations. i am also aware of the reasons we bought in those regulations. nobody wanted these regulations. nobody wanted to have to put these burdens on people, but i did want to stop the virus and to stop so many people dying from it. we have seen the testimony of the consequences of this disease. it was a horrific virus and it was my responsibility to ensure that as few people got it as possible and that was extremely difficult. it involved doing things nobody would want to do in any normal circumstances and from the tone of the questions i get the impression that you think that was... you're inviting me to

say that was a mistake, it wasn't a mistake to put in place restrictions that saved lives. in fact, my overall point is that we needed to have done that sooner in order for there to have been fewer deaths. that's what i working for. find there to have been fewer deaths. that's what i working for.- that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply — that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply the _ that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply the children's - that's what i working for. and it i wasn't simply the children's sector that was— wasn't simply the children's sector that was asking the government to rela>

if we have a look at the entry for the iith of— if we have a look at the entry for the 11th of october at 154659, do you have — the 11th of october at 154659, do you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, - you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, wish - you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, wish we | helen whately says to you, wish we could _ helen whately says to you, wish we could loosen on children under 12 on rule of— could loosen on children under 12 on rule of 65i~ — could loosen on children under 12 on rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or— rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or so _ rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or so later to say it would make — hour or so later to say it would make such _ hour or so later to say it would make such a difference for families and there _ make such a difference for families and there isn't a robust rationale for it _ and there isn't a robust rationale for it she — and there isn't a robust rationale for it. she clearly doesn't agree with you — for it. she clearly doesn't agree with you about there being a robust rationale _ with you about there being a robust rationale for it. now is a really good _ rationale for it. now is a really good chance to show we have listened, _ good chance to show we have listened, lots of mps were pushing on this— listened, lots of mps were pushing on this during last week's debates, do you _ on this during last week's debates, do you see — on this during last week's debates, do you see that? of on this during last week's debates, do you see that?— on this during last week's debates, do you see that? of course i can see that, i do you see that? of course i can see that, i can — do you see that? of course i can see that. i can read. _ do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank— do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank you. - do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank you. i'm - that, i can read, thank you. i'm lad. that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad- they _ that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad- they say _ that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad. they say they don't want to go there _ glad. they say they don't want to go there on— glad. they say they don't want to go there on this full stop and she says. — there on this full stop and she says. are _ there on this full stop and she says, are we they? and then you say, as in_ says, are we they? and then you say, as in number— says, are we they? and then you say, as in number10, also says, are we they? and then you say, as in number 10, also on curfew, they— as in number 10, also on curfew, they don't— as in number 10, also on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch.

correct — they don't want to shift an inch. correct me _ they don't want to shift an inch. correct me if i'm wrong, she is saying — correct me if i'm wrong, she is saying there is no rationale for children— saying there is no rationale for children not to be exempted from the rule of— children not to be exempted from the rule of six _ children not to be exempted from the rule of six and you are saying number— rule of six and you are saying number 10 do rule of six and you are saying number10 do not rule of six and you are saying number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on— number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on this, is that right? what number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on this, is that right?- inch on this, is that right? what i would say — inch on this, is that right? what i would say in _ inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response _ inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response to - inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response to this - would say in response to this exchange is firstly, a big picture point, you can see the high level of factionalism and the way with which those who reported to me, including helen whately, could bring issues to my attention and expressed that they disagreed with me in a wholly professional way and, with respect to your stay�*s evidence, ijust think, chair, make that point because this is how we run the health department and i encouraged people to raise questions with me. i also wish we could have loosened on children, but we couldn't because we needed to keep r below one. at this point, on the 11th of october, you will know that the incidence of

covid was rising, that meant that in the future more people were going to die each day than were dying on this date and my argument, as we have discussed in earlier evidence, was that we needed to do more at this point to stop the virus, to save lives. that's the argument i was making. of course i understand the impact on children, i have three children of my own. of course, i shared a wish that we didn't have to do any of this. but we did. and the reason we did was because otherwise more people would die. i think there was a robust rationale for it and i therefore listened, as you can see, debated briefly with helen and also i don't know whether i checked with number 10 in that 15 minutes in

between 5:40pm and a 5:54pm or whether i already knew they didn't want to change their position. we were under significant political pressure to lift certain restrictions. i thought that would have been a mistake and more people would have died. there was an active campaign against restrictions at this point and, as i say, the clear advice to me was that because of asymptomatic transmission of this virus. unfortunately, it did pass from child to child and therefore from child to child and therefore from household to household and that is why we kept the measures as they are. .. . is why we kept the measures as they are. ., , ., ~ ., ., are. can i 'ust make one more point, it will are. can ijust make one more point, it will take — are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a minute, - are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a minute, my i it will take less than a minute, my lady _ it will take less than a minute, my lady mr_ it will take less than a minute, my lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need _ lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need to — lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need to know that this inquiry has heard — you need to know that this inquiry has heard evidence in relation to what _ has heard evidence in relation to what sir— has heard evidence in relation to what sir patrick vallance put in his notebooks — what sir patrick vallance put in his notebooks that at this very time in

october. _ notebooks that at this very time in october, there is evidence before this inquiry— october, there is evidence before this inquiry that sage was pushing for exempting children from the rule of six _ for exempting children from the rule of six i'rn _ for exempting children from the rule of six. i'm afraid that it does contradict _ of six. i'm afraid that it does contradict the evidence you have 'ust contradict the evidence you have just given, — contradict the evidence you have just given, doesn't it? | contradict the evidence you have just given, doesn't it?— just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that— just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, _ just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all - just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all i - just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all i can i just given, doesn't it? i haven't. seen that evidence, all i can give you is the testimony of what i was told at the time and the overriding strategic objective i had to save lives. strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. .. .. strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. . ~' , ., strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. ., ,, , ., ., ,, , ., strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. .. ,. , ., .. ~' , ., , lives. thank you. thank you, my lad . lives. thank you. thank you, my lady- thank— lives. thank you. thank you, my lady- thank you. _ lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my _ lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my lady. - lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my lady. good| lady. thank you, my lady. good mornin: lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr _ lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. _ lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i - lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i act - lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i act for. lady. thank you, my lady. good i morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled _ morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations— morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and - morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and can - morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and can i i disabled organisations and can i start— disabled organisations and can i start with — disabled organisations and can i start with adult _ disabled organisations and can i start with adult social— disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care - disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care as i disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care as ofj start with adult social care as of early— start with adult social care as of early march _ start with adult social care as of early march 2020. _ start with adult social care as of early march 2020. we - start with adult social care as of early march 2020. we are - early march 2020. we are particularly _ early march 2020. we are particularly concerned i early march 2020. we are | particularly concerned with early march 2020. we are i particularly concerned with the implications— particularly concerned with the implications of— particularly concerned with the implications of the _ particularly concerned with the implications of the nprs - particularly concerned with the implications of the nprs for i implications of the nprs for disabled _ implications of the nprs for disabled people _ implications of the nprs for disabled people whose i implications of the nprs for disabled people whose care| implications of the nprs for - disabled people whose care systems would _ disabled people whose care systems would likely— disabled people whose care systems would likely be — disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled - disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled or, - disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled or, at- would likely be overhauled or, at best, _ would likely be overhauled or, at best. very— would likely be overhauled or, at best, very significantly— would likely be overhauled or, at best, very significantly be - best, very significantly be challenged _ best, very significantly be challenged. the - best, very significantly be challenged. the context, | best, very significantly be i challenged. the context, two best, very significantly be _ challenged. the context, two points if i challenged. the context, two points if i may _ challenged. the context, two points if i may. first. — challenged. the context, two points if i may. first, the _ challenged. the context, two points if i may. first, the annual— if i may. first, the annual published _ if i may. first, the annual published nhs _ if i may. first, the annual published nhs digital- if i may. first, the annual- published nhs digital records from october— published nhs digital records from october 2oi?)— published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, _ published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i— published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i hope i published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i hope you. october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take — october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it — october 2019 indicate, i hope you

will take it from _ october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, _ october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, there - october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, there were i will take it from me, there were 84i.850 — will take it from me, there were 84i.850 people _ will take it from me, there were 841,850 people who _ will take it from me, there were 841,850 people who received i 841,850 people who received long-term _ 841,850 people who received long—term adult— 841,850 people who received long—term adult social - 841,850 people who received long—term adult social care i 841,850 people who received - long—term adult social care support in 20i8— long—term adult social care support in 20i8 to _ long—term adult social care support in 20i8 to i9~ — long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that a _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that a very- in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant _ in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number— in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number of- in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number of those l in 2018 to 19. and that a very- significant number of those people were disabled _ significant number of those people were disabled people,... - significant number of those people were disabled people,... is - significant number of those people were disabled people, . . ._ significant number of those people were disabled people, . .. were disabled people,... is that all ates or were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust — were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working _ were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? - were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? i - were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? i will. ages or 'ust working ages? i will rive ages orjust working ages? i will rive ou ages orjust working ages? i will give you an _ ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. _ ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. for- ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. for those aged between _ give you an example. for those aged between i8— give you an example. for those aged between i8 and — give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, _ give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, the _ give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, the most- give you an example. for those aged i between 18 and 64, the most common reason _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for— between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support was _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support was learning - reason for support was learning disabilities, _ reason for support was learning disabilities, that's _ reason for support was learning disabilities, that's 45.5%, - reason for support was learning i disabilities, that's 45.5%, followed by is physical— disabilities, that's 45.5%, followed by is physical support, _ disabilities, that's 45.5%, followed by is physical support, 29.2%, i by is physical support, 29.2%, mental— by is physical support, 29.2%, mental health— by is physical support, 29.2%, mental health support. - by is physical support, 29.2%,l mental health support. second by is physical support, 29.2%, - mental health support. second point, for context. _ mental health support. second point, for context, bearing _ mental health support. second point, for context, bearing in _ mental health support. second point, for context, bearing in mind - mental health support. second point, for context, bearing in mind your- for context, bearing in mind your characterisation— for context, bearing in mind your characterisation of— for context, bearing in mind your characterisation of the _ for context, bearing in mind your characterisation of the function i for context, bearing in mind your| characterisation of the function of central— characterisation of the function of central government— characterisation of the function of central government including i characterisation of the function of central government including to l characterisation of the function of. central government including to do what only— central government including to do what only the — central government including to do what only the centre _ central government including to do what only the centre can _ central government including to do what only the centre can do, - central government including to do what only the centre can do, we i central government including to do i what only the centre can do, we know that there _ what only the centre can do, we know that there was — what only the centre can do, we know that there was no _ what only the centre can do, we know that there was no dedicated _ what only the centre can do, we know that there was no dedicated cross i that there was no dedicated cross departmental— that there was no dedicated cross departmental government - that there was no dedicated cross departmental government plan i that there was no dedicated cross| departmental government plan as that there was no dedicated cross i departmental government plan as of march _ departmental government plan as of march 2020 — departmental government plan as of march 2020 to — departmental government plan as of march 2020 to lead _ departmental government plan as of march 2020 to lead on _ departmental government plan as of march 2020 to lead on the _ departmental government plan as of march 2020 to lead on the shieldingj march 2020 to lead on the shielding and non—shielding _ march 2020 to lead on the shielding and non—shielding challenges - march 2020 to lead on the shielding and non—shielding challenges that i and non—shielding challenges that hit disabled — and non—shielding challenges that hit disabled people _ and non—shielding challenges that hit disabled people specifically. i

hit disabled people specifically. that has — hit disabled people specifically. that has been— hit disabled people specifically. that has been confirmed - hit disabled people specifically. that has been confirmed by- hit disabled people specifically. that has been confirmed by the minister— that has been confirmed by the minister for— that has been confirmed by the minister for disabled _ that has been confirmed by the minister for disabled people i that has been confirmed by the minister for disabled people to| that has been confirmed by the i minister for disabled people to the chair. _ minister for disabled people to the chair. in _ minister for disabled people to the chair. inthis— minister for disabled people to the chair, in this module _ minister for disabled people to the chair, in this module and - minister for disabled people to the chair, in this module and by- minister for disabled people to the l chair, in this module and by marcus bell, _ chair, in this module and by marcus bell, the _ chair, in this module and by marcus bell, the director— chair, in this module and by marcus bell, the director of— chair, in this module and by marcus bell, the director of the _ chair, in this module and by marcus bell, the director of the equality- bell, the director of the equality hub in_ bell, the director of the equality hub in module _ bell, the director of the equality hub in module one. _ bell, the director of the equality hub in module one. till- bell, the director of the equality hub in module one. till i - bell, the director of the equality hub in module one.— bell, the director of the equality hub in module one. all i will say is it is valuable _ hub in module one. all i will say is it is valuable to _ hub in module one. all i will say is it is valuable to be _ hub in module one. all i will say is it is valuable to be more _ hub in module one. all i will say is it is valuable to be more precise i it is valuable to be more precise within march because i commissioned what became the shielding plan in early march and so by late march, it was extremely well advanced. yes. was extremely well advanced. yes, well, i was extremely well advanced. yes, well, 1 am — was extremely well advanced. yes, well. i am not _ was extremely well advanced. yes, well, i am not going _ was extremely well advanced. yes, well, i am not going to _ was extremely well advanced. yes, well, i am not going to go - was extremely well advanced. yes, well, i am not going to go too far into that — well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe _ well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe to _ well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe to say— well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe to say this, - well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe to say this, i - well, i am not going to go too far into that. safe to say this, i will i into that. safe to say this, i will ask your— into that. safe to say this, i will ask your question— into that. safe to say this, i will ask your question and _ into that. safe to say this, i will ask your question and you - into that. safe to say this, i will ask your question and you mayl into that. safe to say this, i will i ask your question and you may add into that. safe to say this, i will - ask your question and you may add to it, ask your question and you may add to it. the _ ask your question and you may add to it. the shielding — ask your question and you may add to it, the shielding plan— ask your question and you may add to it, the shielding plan and _ ask your question and you may add to it, the shielding plan and the - it, the shielding plan and the battled — it, the shielding plan and the battled plan, _ it, the shielding plan and the battled plan, the _ it, the shielding plan and the battled plan, the battle - it, the shielding plan and the battled plan, the battle plan| it, the shielding plan and the i battled plan, the battle plan in relation — battled plan, the battle plan in relation to— battled plan, the battle plan in relation to all— battled plan, the battle plan in relation to all your _ battled plan, the battle plan in relation to all your work, - battled plan, the battle plan in relation to all your work, at i battled plan, the battle plan in. relation to all your work, at that stage _ relation to all your work, at that stage in— relation to all your work, at that stage in march— relation to all your work, at that stage in march and _ relation to all your work, at that stage in march and how- relation to all your work, at that stage in march and how it- relation to all your work, at that i stage in march and how it evolved in its first _ stage in march and how it evolved in its first incarnation, _ stage in march and how it evolved in its first incarnation, battle _ stage in march and how it evolved in its first incarnation, battle plan- its first incarnation, battle plan version — its first incarnation, battle plan version one. _ its first incarnation, battle plan version one, was— its first incarnation, battle plan version one, was for— its first incarnation, battle plan version one, was for the - its first incarnation, battle plani version one, was for the clinically vulnerable — version one, was for the clinically vulnerable who— version one, was for the clinically vulnerable who needed _ version one, was for the clinically vulnerable who needed to - version one, was for the clinically vulnerable who needed to shieldl version one, was for the clinically. vulnerable who needed to shield and we know— vulnerable who needed to shield and we know later— vulnerable who needed to shield and we know later in _ vulnerable who needed to shield and we know later in may _ vulnerable who needed to shield and we know later in may that _ we know later in may that non—shielding _ we know later in may thati non—shielding vulnerability we know later in may that - non—shielding vulnerability came into play — non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so _ non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so no _ non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so no case _ non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so no case to - non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so no case to get i non—shielding vulnerability came into play. so no case to get up, i non—shielding vulnerability came i into play. so no case to get up, we won't _ into play. so no case to get up, we won't have — into play. so no case to get up, we won't have a — into play. so no case to get up, we won't have a debate _

into play. so no case to get up, we won't have a debate about - into play. so no case to get up, we won't have a debate about that, i into play. so no case to get up, we i won't have a debate about that, that was outside — won't have a debate about that, that was outside of— won't have a debate about that, that was outside of your— won't have a debate about that, that was outside of your immediate - was outside of your immediate responsibility _ was outside of your immediate responsibility. let _ was outside of your immediate responsibility. let me - was outside of your immediate responsibility. let me just i was outside of your immediate responsibility. let me just ask| was outside of your immediate i responsibility. let me just ask you this. _ responsibility. let me just ask you this. as _ responsibility. let me just ask you this, as secretary _ responsibility. let me just ask you this, as secretary of _ responsibility. let me just ask you this, as secretary of state - responsibility. let me just ask you this, as secretary of state for i responsibility. let me just ask you j this, as secretary of state for both health— this, as secretary of state for both health and — this, as secretary of state for both health and social— this, as secretary of state for both health and social care _ this, as secretary of state for both health and social care including i health and social care including adult _ health and social care including adult social— health and social care including adult social care, _ health and social care including adult social care, did _ health and social care including adult social care, did you - health and social care including adult social care, did you raisel health and social care including i adult social care, did you raise the issue _ adult social care, did you raise the issue of— adult social care, did you raise the issue of a — adult social care, did you raise the issue of a lack— adult social care, did you raise the issue of a lack of— adult social care, did you raise the issue of a lack of any— adult social care, did you raise the issue of a lack of any cross - issue of a lack of any cross departmental— issue of a lack of any cross departmental plan- issue of a lack of any cross i departmental plan because issue of a lack of any cross - departmental plan because mike and issue of a lack of any cross _ departmental plan because mike and i emphasise _ departmental plan because mike and i emphasise that. — departmental plan because mike and i emphasise that, for— departmental plan because mike and i emphasise that, for disabled - departmental plan because mike and i emphasise that, for disabled people l emphasise that, for disabled people in central— emphasise that, for disabled people in central government— emphasise that, for disabled people in central government at _ emphasise that, for disabled people in central government at the - emphasise that, for disabled people in central government at the time? i in central government at the time? we discussed — in central government at the time? we discussed the _ in central government at the time? we discussed the importance - in central government at the time? we discussed the importance of- in central government at the time? l we discussed the importance of work to protect those who were particularly vulnerable to the disease and so i answer that way because we were precise about it, in how we thought about it, which is what matters is the vulnerability to this disease and therefore one disability may lead you much more vulnerable to the disease, another disability may leave you no more vulnerable to the disease than somebody else of your age and other

characteristics. i somebody else of your age and other characteristics.— characteristics. i understand that, that's inside _ characteristics. i understand that, that's inside your _ characteristics. i understand that, that's inside your department i that's inside your department focusing _ that's inside your department focusing on— that's inside your department focusing on critical— that's inside your department focusing on critical issue i that's inside your department focusing on critical issue and i that's inside your department. focusing on critical issue and my question— focusing on critical issue and my question is— focusing on critical issue and my question is a _ focusing on critical issue and my question is a more _ focusing on critical issue and my question is a more general- focusing on critical issue and my question is a more general onei focusing on critical issue and my. question is a more general one of the various— question is a more general one of the various vulnerabilities - question is a more general one of the various vulnerabilities that i the various vulnerabilities that were _ the various vulnerabilities that were going _ the various vulnerabilities that were going to— the various vulnerabilities that were going to arise, _ the various vulnerabilities that were going to arise, both- the various vulnerabilities that i were going to arise, both clinical vulnerability _ were going to arise, both clinical vulnerability that— were going to arise, both clinical vulnerability that you _ were going to arise, both clinical vulnerability that you have - were going to arise, both clinical vulnerability that you have just l vulnerability that you have just focused — vulnerability that you have just focused on _ vulnerability that you have just focused on and _ vulnerability that you have just focused on and the _ vulnerability that you have just i focused on and the non—shielding vulnerability _ focused on and the non—shielding vulnerability power— focused on and the non—shielding vulnerability power are _ vulnerability power are diametrically— vulnerability power are i diametrically determined by vulnerability power are - diametrically determined by the nature _ diametrically determined by the nature and _ diametrically determined by the nature and the _ diametrically determined by the nature and the harsh _ diametrically determined by the nature and the harsh nature i diametrically determined by the nature and the harsh nature of. diametrically determined by the i nature and the harsh nature of the lockdown — nature and the harsh nature of the lockdown measures _ nature and the harsh nature of the lockdown measures and _ nature and the harsh nature of the lockdown measures and the - nature and the harsh nature of the lockdown measures and the like, i nature and the harsh nature of the i lockdown measures and the like, did you raise. _ lockdown measures and the like, did you raise. as— lockdown measures and the like, did you raise. as it— lockdown measures and the like, did you raise, as it were, _ lockdown measures and the like, did you raise, as it were, the _ lockdown measures and the like, did you raise, as it were, the absence i you raise, as it were, the absence or sufficiency _ you raise, as it were, the absence or sufficiency of _ you raise, as it were, the absence or sufficiency of cross _ you raise, as it were, the absence i or sufficiency of cross departmental government— or sufficiency of cross departmental government planning _ or sufficiency of cross departmental government planning for— or sufficiency of cross departmental government planning for the - or sufficiency of cross departmental government planning for the wholel or sufficiency of cross departmental l government planning for the whole of that impact? — government planning for the whole of that impact? trite— government planning for the whole of that imact? g .., . ., government planning for the whole of that imact? g . ., , government planning for the whole of that impact?— that impact? my recollection is that this was discussed _ that impact? my recollection is that this was discussed at _ that impact? my recollection is that this was discussed at one _ that impact? my recollection is that this was discussed at one of - that impact? my recollection is that this was discussed at one of the i this was discussed at one of the ministerial implementation groups, but i don't have a date for you. thud but i don't have a date for you. and be ond but i don't have a date for you. and beyond the — but i don't have a date for you. and beyond the obvious clinical focused responsibilities— beyond the obvious clinical focused responsibilities of— beyond the obvious clinical focused responsibilities of your _ beyond the obvious clinical focused i responsibilities of your department, whose _ responsibilities of your department, whose responsibility— responsibilities of your department, whose responsibility in _ responsibilities of your department, | whose responsibility in government,

personally— whose responsibility in government, personally or— whose responsibility in government, personally or departmentally- whose responsibility in government, personally or departmentally or i personally or departmentally or institutionally, _ personally or departmentally or institutionally, would _ personally or departmentally or institutionally, would it - personally or departmentally or institutionally, would it have i personally or departmentally or i institutionally, would it have been to raise _ institutionally, would it have been to raise the — institutionally, would it have been to raise the need _ institutionally, would it have been to raise the need for— institutionally, would it have been to raise the need for cross - to raise the need for cross departmental— to raise the need for cross departmental planning i to raise the need for cross i departmental planning across to raise the need for cross - departmental planning across the range _ departmental planning across the range of— departmental planning across the range of clinical— departmental planning across the range of clinical and _ departmental planning across the range of clinical and nonclinical. range of clinical and nonclinical vulnerabilities _ range of clinical and nonclinical vulnerabilities arising - range of clinical and nonclinical vulnerabilities arising out - range of clinical and nonclinical vulnerabilities arising out of. range of clinical and nonclinicall vulnerabilities arising out of the covid _ vulnerabilities arising out of the covid response? _ vulnerabilities arising out of the covid response? the— vulnerabilities arising out of the covid response?— vulnerabilities arising out of the covid response? the answer is, in a pandemic. — covid response? the answer is, in a pandemic, that's _ covid response? the answer is, in a pandemic, that's a _ covid response? the answer is, in a pandemic, that's a very _ covid response? the answer is, in a pandemic, that's a very big - covid response? the answer is, in a| pandemic, that's a very big question because the issue of those who were more clinically vulnerable was clearly a cross departmental one at the heart of the overall response to covid and so the chief medical officer and others would have been heavily engaged on that side. the consequences of the measures needed to tackle covid that particularly made life harsher and more difficult for those with disabilities, including those who were no more at risk from covid than the general population, those issues were considered. i think that the lead, of course, there is a ministerfor disabilities, i know he has given

evidence, but that would have been more likely to have fallen within m hcl g's remit and they lead on the overall shielding and then the allied non—shielding, non—clinically vulnerable support, but there was also a heavy cabinet office support for that and as you say, simon case was initially brought into government in order to lead on that particular piece of work which is very important. particular piece of work which is very important-_ particular piece of work which is very important. particular piece of work which is ve imortant. .. ~' very important. thank you, could we to to i n very important. thank you, could we 9° to i n 0. _ very important. thank you, could we go to 1 n 0. page — very important. thank you, could we go to l n 0. page six _ very important. thank you, could we go to i n 0, page six and _ very important. thank you, could we go to i n 0, page six and i'm - go to i n 0, page six and i'm turning— go to i n 0, page six and i'm turning to— go to i n 0, page six and i'm turning to care— go to i n 0, page six and i'm turning to care homes- go to i n 0, page six and i'm- turning to care homes specifically, mr hancock — turning to care homes specifically, mr hancock. these _ turning to care homes specifically, mr hancock. these are _ turning to care homes specifically, mr hancock. these are whatsappi mr hancock. these are whatsapp messages — mr hancock. these are whatsapp messages amongst _ mr hancock. these are whatsapp messages amongst you _ mr hancock. these are whatsapp messages amongst you and - mr hancock. these are whatsapp messages amongst you and your| mr hancock. these are whatsapp i messages amongst you and your staff, but i want _ messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to— messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to focus _ messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to focus on _ messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to focus on the _ messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to focus on the one - messages amongst you and your staff, but i want to focus on the one with - but i want to focus on the one with jamie, _ but i want to focus on the one with jamie, dated— but i want to focus on the one with jamie, dated april— but i want to focus on the one with jamie, dated april four, _ but i want to focus on the one with jamie, dated april four, 2020. - but i want to focus on the one with jamie, dated aprilfour, 2020. we| jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have _ jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have seen— jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have seen this _ jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have seen this morning _ jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have seen this morning that -

jamie, dated april four, 2020. we have seen this morning that he . jamie, dated april four, 2020. we| have seen this morning that he was actually— have seen this morning that he was actually on — have seen this morning that he was actually on the _ have seen this morning that he was actually on the sixth _ have seen this morning that he was actually on the sixth march - have seen this morning that he was actually on the sixth march home . actually on the sixth march home meeting — you tell the chair this was your media — you tell the chair this was your media advisor— you tell the chair this was your media advisor and _ you tell the chair this was your media advisor and he - you tell the chair this was your media advisor and he becamel you tell the chair this was your- media advisor and he became director of strategy— media advisor and he became director of strategy later — media advisor and he became director of strategy later on. _ media advisor and he became director of strategy later on. your _ media advisor and he became director of strategy later on. your statement i of strategy later on. your statement says of strategy later on. your statement says he _ of strategy later on. your statement says he worked _ of strategy later on. your statement says he worked on— of strategy later on. your statement says he worked on media _ of strategy later on. your statement. says he worked on media management and also _ says he worked on media management and also wider — says he worked on media management and also wider political _ says he worked on media management and also wider political strategic - and also wider political strategic issues, — and also wider political strategic issues, is — and also wider political strategic issues, is that _ and also wider political strategic issues, is that in _ and also wider political strategic issues, is that in addition? - and also wider political strategic issues, is that in addition? 'i'hafl and also wider political strategic issues, is that in addition? that is a aood issues, is that in addition? that is a good summary- _ issues, is that in addition? that is a good summary. yesterday - issues, is that in addition? that is a good summary. yesterday the i a good summary. yesterday the inuui a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked _ a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked at _ a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked at you _ a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked at you to - a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked at you to ask- a good summary. yesterday the inquiry looked at you to ask you i inquiry looked at you to ask you look— inquiry looked at you to ask you look at — inquiry looked at you to ask you look at an— inquiry looked at you to ask you look at an exchange _ inquiry looked at you to ask you look at an exchange and - inquiry looked at you to ask you look at an exchange and what . inquiry looked at you to ask you | look at an exchange and what to inquiry looked at you to ask you - look at an exchange and what to say to the _ look at an exchange and what to say to the public— look at an exchange and what to say to the public having _ look at an exchange and what to say to the public having lockdown - look at an exchange and what to say to the public having lockdown care l to the public having lockdown care homes _ to the public having lockdown care homes and — to the public having lockdown care homes and he _ to the public having lockdown care homes and he warned _ to the public having lockdown care homes and he warned you - to the public having lockdown care homes and he warned you that - to the public having lockdown care . homes and he warned you that there may be _ homes and he warned you that there may be issues— homes and he warned you that there may be issues with _ homes and he warned you that there may be issues with telling _ homes and he warned you that there may be issues with telling the - homes and he warned you that there may be issues with telling the pm i may be issues with telling the pm that care — may be issues with telling the pm that care homes _ may be issues with telling the pm that care homes like _ may be issues with telling the pm that care homes like dan - may be issues with telling the pm that care homes like dan before l may be issues with telling the pm . that care homes like dan before the rest of— that care homes like dan before the rest of the — that care homes like dan before the rest of the country. _ that care homes like dan before the rest of the country. can _ that care homes like dan before the rest of the country. can i _ that care homes like dan before the rest of the country. can i read - that care homes like dan before the rest of the country. can i read this. rest of the country. can i read this exchange — rest of the country. can i read this exchange of— rest of the country. can i read this exchange of five _ rest of the country. can i read this exchange of five weeks _ rest of the country. can i read this exchange of five weeks earlier, i rest of the country. can i read this. exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third _ exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third entry— exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third entry on _ exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third entry on that _ exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third entry on that page. - exchange of five weeks earlier, and the third entry on that page. 0n- the third entry on that page. 0n testihg. — the third entry on that page. 0n testihg. do— the third entry on that page. 0n testihg. do we— the third entry on that page. 0n testing, do we need _ the third entry on that page. 0n testing, do we need to - the third entry on that page. 0n testing, do we need to have - the third entry on that page. 0n testing, do we need to have a l testing, do we need to have a specific— testing, do we need to have a specific stand _ testing, do we need to have a specific stand or— testing, do we need to have a specific stand or push - testing, do we need to have a specific stand or push on - testing, do we need to have a . specific stand or push on testing testing, do we need to have a - specific stand or push on testing in care homes, —

specific stand or push on testing in care homes, testing _ specific stand or push on testing in care homes, testing hospital- care homes, testing hospital admissions _ care homes, testing hospital admissions and _ care homes, testing hospital admissions and clinical- care homes, testing hospital. admissions and clinical patients care homes, testing hospital- admissions and clinical patients at risk, _ admissions and clinical patients at risk, we _