but as the temperatures drop, can the government protect the nhs from a winter crisis? a cold snap sweeps the country. with the nhs preparing for another difficult winter, waiting lists are still sky—high. my walking is so restricted now. the last time i checked with the waiting list, it was 50 weeks. so there is a frosty outlook for our new health secretary. but despite the freezing weather this week, 2023 is on track to be the hottest year ever. leaders jetting in from across the world to the blazing dubai sun. at a cop summit they are talking climate change and listening to the call from the crown. some important progress has been made, but it worries me greatly that we remain so dreadfully far off track. but rishi sunakfaces problems at home, right here, right now.

so our big question this morning, as the temperature drops — can the nhs avoid a terrible winter? to answer that question, victoria atkins in her first interview with us as health secretary. would labour have it any easier? the shadow business secretaryjoins us too. israeli strikes on gaza are most definitely back. mark regez is with us. and nelson mandela's granddaughter — activist ndelika — joins us from dubai where she's pressing the flesh with world leaders at the climate change summit. good morning.

with me at the desk — jane moore, the columnist and broadcaster. historian lord andrew roberts. and professor kamila hawthorne — the chair of the royal college of general pracitioners. we're going to spend a lot of the morning talking about health. victoria atkins is with us. one of your colleagues said to me what you do is going to make the difference to whether the toys can hang on at the next election. feel the pressure? the nhs is one of the reasons i came into politics. i feel honoured but an incredible responsibility. we will get into that with some of your questions for victoria. we'll hear what she has to say in a minute or two and put some of your questions to the minister too. let's look at what's making the news first. many of the front pages are dominated by the row over the royals who suppposedly discussed

the skin colour of harry and meghan�*s baby — identified supposedly by accident. the sunday mirror says that king charles and the princess of wales will unite this week, to "rise above" the fallout. prince harry has been left off the invite list for the duke of westminster�*s wedding, according to the mail on sunday. and the sunday express says king charles�* heart is breaking about the latest claims. the bbc website leads with the news that a german tourist has been killed and two others injured after a knife and hammer attack in paris last night. the sunday telegraph leads on keir starmer praising margaret thatcher. we will talk more about that later. and the observer focuses on israel's attacks on southern gaza. last night, israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu said continuing the attacks on gaza was the best way to secure the freedom of the remaining israeli hostages. this weekend, israel has carried out intense air strikes on the south of gaza, and it's pulled out of talks in qatar.

hamas says it will only release more hostages if there's a permanent ceasefire. a unicef spokesperson in gaza said the renewed attacks were catastrophic for the people of gaza. mark regev is one of the prime minister's senior advisers, and we can talk to him live from tel aviv. thank you forjoining us. the truce is well and truly over. this weekend, residents of the southern city of khan yunis say the bombardments have been the heaviest they've been. it doesn't look like you are listening to calls from your allies including the americans to take more care to protect civilians. on the contrary we are making a maximum effort maybe even unprecedented. we have designated, it is not the entire city of khan yunis which is going to be susceptible to combat operations, we have designated particular neighbourhoods and given advance warning to people in those neighbourhoods, the civilians, to

please leave. we have allocated saver zones for them. they hope is we won't see civilians caught up in the crossfire. our viewers can see civilians are being caught up every single day. in gaza there is not enough fuel, not enough transport to imagine every civilian can respond to every warning. awar is warning. a war is going on, it is difficult. the reason is because of hamas, that not only started this conflict on october the 7th when they invaded our country and butchered people, but which led to the end of the humanitarian pause, refusing to follow through on its own obligations to release prisoners on a list they agreed to. the people of gaza if they have complaints, they know who you —— who to point the finger to. know who you —— who to point the fingerto. in know who you —— who to point the finger to. in the framework of destroying hamas, in accordance with international law, we will continue

to make a decision between hamas terrorists and the civilian population. hamas have said something very different about the end of the talks, they say they were willing to keep talking, there were other proposals but israel walked away. it proposals but israel walked away. it is obvious how mass would say that but other parties part of the negotiations have attested that it was how mass�*s fault the dues did not continue. in terms of what is happening now, the continuing bombardment and effect on civilians, it is very clear in the last couple of weeks your allies who want to stand by you have become increasingly alarmed by the scale of your response. kamala harris said yesterday israel has a right to defend itself but not at any cost. to many it looks like what israel is doing is a collective punishment of an entire population

thatis punishment of an entire population that is illegal under international law. president biden said the lesson from 9/11 was a country must not be blinded by rage, isn't that what is happening here? not at all. i assure you that is not the case. we are making a maximum effort. i said the case. we are making a maximum effort. isaid before, unprecedented, to try to keep civilians out of harm's way, to avoid them getting caught up in the crossfire. we have sent out maps a few days ago which designated safer areas for people to go to. our task of safeguarding civilians is made especially difficult by her massive�*s deliberate strategy of embedding military command and control, its depots, missile launching sites, among civilian neighbourhoods come inside hospitals and mosques, even schools and un facilities. we are trying to be as

surgical as we can beat in a difficult combat situation. when this is over and the numbers are known, because we are using the numbers put out by the hamas ministry of health, but when you compare what israel has done with gaza, compared to the uk and other forces against isis in syria and rack, you will see we have succeeded to keep the level of civilian casualties very low. there are many charities and eyewitnesses on the ground who would dispute your description of what is happening to civilians in gaza. you said, when this is over. there are many asking questions about what will happen to gaza at the end, if you are successful in eliminating hamas. what will happen to this piece of land? it will be in a better situation because hamas has been controlling gaza for 16 years. not only has that

been horrific for the people of israel, that has been very sad for the people of gaza. what have they brought civilians in gaza? poverty, bloodshed. surely they deserve better than this extremist regime, terror regime, that doesn't give a hoot and is happy to sacrifice people to advance their very extreme, crazy agenda. thanks very much to mark regev. and the bbc has been speaking to a palestinian official close to the talks who said hamas had made proposals to reach an agreement to extend the ceasefire, including potentially handing over more civilian hostages. the bbc will have more on that throughout the day.

our main story at home, is the health service. you are the chair of the royal college of gps. at this time of year, patients, politicians get nervous about the winter crisis. can we avoid something really awful for people in the next few months? it is definitely tough out there, notjust it is definitely tough out there, not just for it is definitely tough out there, notjust for gps it is definitely tough out there, not just for gps but across the it is definitely tough out there, notjust for gps but across the nhs. we have quite serious staff shortages, lack of resources. with winter comes respiratory illnesses, people slipping in streets, breaking their wrists and hips and so on. i think it is going to be a difficult time. i would like to see what victoria has to say about her short plans for this winter. to some extent the government is reassuring itself with more ambulances, more virtual wards and reds but if we

have another strap a crisis as a last winter we are in trouble. —— strep a. and i would urge people to get their covid and flu vaccines. tell me about your experience? i tell me about your experience? i seem to be doing a tour of london hospitals, — seem to be doing a tour of london hospitals, may need to do with an elderly— hospitals, may need to do with an elderly relative and falls. i was in a busy— elderly relative and falls. i was in a busy large teaching hospital in the middle of the day. we reached the middle of the day. we reached the triage — the middle of the day. we reached the triage area with cubicles and i watched _ the triage area with cubicles and i watched the primarily young staff and what — watched the primarily young staff and what they were dealing with. they were — and what they were dealing with. they were so overworked. they were dealing _ they were so overworked. they were dealing primarily with what i would interpret _ dealing primarily with what i would interpret as social care issues. people — interpret as social care issues. people with mental health issues. particularly the elderly who could not get _ particularly the elderly who could not get appointments with their gp,

so they— not get appointments with their gp, so they have to turn up at accident and emergency in desperation. and a lot of— and emergency in desperation. and a lot of them, — and emergency in desperation. and a lot of them, i was talking to one elderly— lot of them, i was talking to one elderly person in the waiting area, it wasnt— elderly person in the waiting area, it wasn't even, it was because she couldht— it wasn't even, it was because she couldn't get — it wasn't even, it was because she couldn't get an appointment, she did not how— couldn't get an appointment, she did not how -- _ couldn't get an appointment, she did not how —— she did not know how to id not how —— she did not know how to go oniihe, _ not how —— she did not know how to go oniihe, she — not how —— she did not know how to go online, she could not go in, she could _ go online, she could not go in, she could not— go online, she could not go in, she could not call up. it seems to me now increasingly, and not all gp surgeries— now increasingly, and not all gp surgeries are like this, but my own surgery. _ surgeries are like this, but my own surgery, used to be able to get an appointment easily. now it is like this _ this. i- this. i am sure this. - i am sure we this. — i am sure we will talk about this. i am sure we will talk about that later. andrew, the patients and the public come first in this but the nhs is tricky politically for conservatives. it always has been. i didn't found the nhs — it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in — it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948— it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although - it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although it- it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although it did l it always has been. i didn't found i the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it~ — the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every single - the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every single general election— oppose it. but every single general election labour— oppose it. but every single general election labour claim _ oppose it. but every single general election labour claim they, - oppose it. but every single general election labour claim they, the - election labour claim they, the tories — election labour claim they, the tories are _ election labour claim they, the tories are about _ election labour claim they, the tories are about to _

election labour claim they, the tories are about to privatise i election labour claim they, thei tories are about to privatise the nhs which — tories are about to privatise the nhs which is _ tories are about to privatise the nhs which is rubbish. _ tories are about to privatise the nhs which is rubbish. even- tories are about to privatise the - nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher— nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did — nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not _ nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise _ nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise the - nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise the nhs. l thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a _ thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful— thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful and _ thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful and difficult- it is a painful and difficult minefield _ it is a painful and difficult minefield for— it is a painful and difficult minefield for the - it is a painful and difficult minefield for the tories. i it is a painful and difficult. minefield for the tories. find minefield for the tories. and difficult for _ minefield for the tories. difficult for patients. i want minefield for the tories.- difficult for patients. i want to get to the minister then back to you straight afterwards. just get to the minister then back to you straight afterwards.— straight afterwards. just to say this is not _ straight afterwards. just to say this is not a — straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social _ straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social care - straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social care issue. | who would fancy being health secretary? it's getting colder. that traditionally means a winter crisis in the health service. last year saw ambulances queuing as far as the eye could see, agonisingly long waits for patients, and the prime minister's promise to cut waiting lists is looking very shaky. let's remind you of some of the numbers in england, although there are challenges in scotland, wales and northern ireland too. nearly 7.8 million people are on waiting lists for nhs treatment. the highest it has ever been. there are 761 fewer gps

than there were four years ago — despite the government promising more. and it took ambulances on average almost 42 minutes to respond to things like strokes and chest pains in october. more than double the target. and victoria atkins the health secretary is with me now. you would wonder why anybody would want to do the job. you have said you care very much about it and it is a privilege. when you look at those numbers how would you describe the state of the nhs? the nhs looks after 66 million people, we have 11 million inpatients each year, there are doctors and nurses and volunteers working in hospitals day in, day out. i totally understand the focus on those cases where nhs care is less than we would hope and expect. i do think it is important to recognise there are some very good news stories in the nhs. on the statistics, the waiting list is actually 6.5 million people on

waiting lists. but 7.7 million pathways. if waiting lists. but 7.7 million athwa s. ., but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waitin: for but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important _ but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things - but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things for - but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things for you j waiting for important things for you it is right these names are counted twice. nobody would dispute there is excellent care but there are very serious problems, do you acknowledge this? yes, this is why we have record funding in the nhs. we also have a series of plans to tackle, for example, urgent and emergency care. in preparation for this winter. of course we know the nhs, like any other health care system in the world when temperatures drop will come under pressure. we put 800 new ambulances on the road to tackle those concerns we all have about ambulances getting to people on time. we have 5000 beds being installed in the nhs at the moment to help provide the extra capacity. you are trying to prepare. we know

from you is that these statistics often mean terrible things in real life. i often mean terrible things in real life. ., often mean terrible things in real life. . ., ., , ., life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery — life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and _ life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have - life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have been - life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have been for life. i am on the waiting list for- back surgery and have been for over a year _ back surgery and have been for over a year i— back surgery and have been for over a year i have — back surgery and have been for over a year. i have been told the waiting list is _ a year. i have been told the waiting list is years — a year. i have been told the waiting list is years and i am not likely to -et list is years and i am not likely to get surgery— list is years and i am not likely to get surgery anytime soon. i am restricted — get surgery anytime soon. i am restricted as to what i can do and i cannot— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go on— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go on much longer like this. what _ cannot go on much longer like this. what are _ cannot go on much longer like this. what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list? what what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list?— what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so — nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry— nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she _ nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she is _ nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she is suffering i her? i am so sorry she is suffering in ain. i her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain- i want _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to help _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to help everybody l her? i am so sorry she is suffering | in pain. i want to help everybody in the country facing these waiting lists. this is why the prime minister has made the waiting list one of his priorities. it minister has made the waiting list one of his priorities.— one of his priorities. it has gone u . one of his priorities. it has gone u- since one of his priorities. it has gone up since he _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. let's - one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. let's show| up since he did that. let's show people what happened to the numbers. this is what has happened to waiting lists. we know the pandemic made things much more challenging. the risk can see it was going up well

before the pandemic. lots more money has gone in and there are many, many more style. this is the situation that people like lynn are having to deal with. ., that people like lynn are having to dealwith. ., ., ., , deal with. you are right to expend more money _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than ever _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than ever before - deal with. you are right to expend i more money than ever before going into the nhs. we have tried to get more people in the nhs. this week we met a manifesto promise we would recruit a further 50,000 nurses into the nhs. that is great news we have able to achieve. it is the nhs. that is great news we have able to achieve.— able to achieve. it is going the wron: able to achieve. it is going the wrong way- — able to achieve. it is going the wrong way- in _ able to achieve. it is going the wrong way. in terms _ able to achieve. it is going the wrong way. in terms of - able to achieve. it is going the | wrong way. in terms of waiting lists, the plans _ wrong way. in terms of waiting lists, the plans we _ wrong way. in terms of waiting lists, the plans we have - wrong way. in terms of waiting lists, the plans we have in - wrong way. in terms of waiting l lists, the plans we have in place wrong way. in terms of waiting - lists, the plans we have in place to deal with urgent and emergency care, electors, people coming in for nonemergency care. we do have to acknowledge that the impact of the industrial action has really had an impact on waiting lists. it is since december last year, we had seen 1.1 million appointments having to be

rescheduled. when i was appointed as health secretary, i wanted to try to address the industrial action with doctors. i am address the industrial action with doctors. iam really address the industrial action with doctors. i am really pleased that in the last three weeks i have been imposed but we have been able to reach a settlement with consultants. i very much hope will vote for this and help to address some of that. we are very clear we want doctors and nurses to be able to work in the nhs because that way we will be able to not just deal with this because that way we will be able to notjust deal with this case the others he helped to prepare for the future. ., , ,, , ., , future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage _ future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage in _ future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage in all— future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage in all of— future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage in all of this. - future. sorting out the strikes was a big blockage in all of this. why l a big blockage in all of this. why did your predecessor steve buckley sit in a chairfor months did your predecessor steve buckley sit in a chair for months saying he would not talk to the doctors? itroihat would not talk to the doctors? what we had done — would not talk to the doctors? what we had done with _ would not talk to the doctors? what we had done with the _ would not talk to the doctors? ryousgit we had done with the consultants, by the way i have had a really constructive relationship with them so far and i am very much looking forward to having that relationship with doctors in training and nurses and others. what we had done with

consultants is look at their contract. it was set up in 2003 and did not have the sorts of things we would expect in our working lives. my would expect in our working lives. my question is, we have said the strikes are a big part of the reason why wetness are sky high and people are suffering. why did the government said on its hands full months refusing to talk to doctors? —— waiting lists are sky high. the -- waiting lists are sky high. the -a -- waiting lists are sky high. the pay review _ —— waiting lists are sky high. tue: pay review board process, we —— waiting lists are sky high. tu9 pay review board process, we have stuck to that. what we had announced in the last couple of weeks does not touch the headline rate of pay, it is about the underlying employment contract. it is exciting for consultants because it means whereas in the past it has taken up to 18 years to become qualified as a consultant with different bureaucratic stages in the process, we have shortened that to 14 years before macro progression points.

important for the and it is not a bad time sad. it is about skill sets and qualifications. —— not about time sad. i have had an extremely constructive start to our relationship. i met then a couple of weeks ago. i popped into a meeting that officials had this week. they know that i won't be able to meet some of that asks but i am very interested in having conversations with than a —— about conditions they work in. when i have spoken to doctors, they had told me stories about rotors and how it has had an impact on their ability to keep going in a toughjob. i always take people as i find them. it has been very constructive and i am very keen

for us to continue that. my truck are one thing people are doing, they are one thing people are doing, they are getting up on the nhs, it is sometimes turning private. —— fine sometimes turning private. -- one thing people _ sometimes turning private. -- one thing people are — sometimes turning private. —— one thing people are doing. denise in suffolk said she was in too much pain to wait, took out a bank loan and crowd funded to get a new hip. she is worried she will have to sell her house for her second hip. the prime her house for her second hip. tu9 prime minister has focused on waiting lists, as i say. we are trying to get those down. we have seen progress. we have seen some of the longest wait eliminated. there is no easy answer to this. my focus as health secretary is to try to help people like you have described. with the numbers going the wrong way, can you commit to hitting his targets before the general election? very much we are looking to meet those targets. i need the

consultants to pass this settlement we have put forward. i hope very much doctors in training will be able to reach a settlement with us as well. if we have removed a threat of industrial action from the nhs, then those people who, for example, in the october set of actions that we have 40,000 appointments being rescheduled each day, that stops and we are able to get on... you rescheduled each day, that stops and we are able to get on. . ._ we are able to get on... you are sa in: we are able to get on... you are saying is — we are able to get on... you are saying is that — we are able to get on... you are saying is that doctors _ we are able to get on... you are saying is that doctors accept - we are able to get on... you are saying is that doctors accept the new deal, the prime minister might be able to meet his target. brute new deal, the prime minister might be able to meet his target.- be able to meet his target. we are throwin: be able to meet his target. we are throwing everything _ be able to meet his target. we are throwing everything we _ be able to meet his target. we are throwing everything we can - be able to meet his target. we are throwing everything we can at - be able to meet his target. we are | throwing everything we can at this. i don't want to give an easy answers. exactly for the people you have described in the show today, we need to be able to help them. itoothed need to be able to help them. what he had said — need to be able to help them. what he had said that _ need to be able to help them. what he had said that matters. you are essentially implying, although not spelling out, the prime minister's targets to cut waiting this will not happen unless you can sort out the industrial disputes. brute

happen unless you can sort out the industrial disputes.— industrial disputes. we are doing all have an _ industrial disputes. we are doing all have an enormous _ industrial disputes. we are doing all have an enormous amount - industrial disputes. we are doing all have an enormous amount of| all have an enormous amount of goodwill from the bma and others. i am keen to encourage that. we would ask consultants to look at this settlement. it is a modern contract i hope they would find acceptable. have you used private health care? 1 have you used private health care? i usedit have you used private health care? i used it once for a second opinion. i have used the nhs all my life. i was diagnosed with type one diabetes and it has supported me every year of my life since. �* , :, ., it has supported me every year of my life since. �*, ., ,, ., , , life since. let's talk about gps. camilla was _ life since. let's talk about gps. camilla was talking _ life since. let's talk about gps. camilla was talking about - life since. let's talk about gps. camilla was talking about the l camilla was talking about the pressure on them. she made it sound also like you are trying to convince yourself that you can avoid a winter crisis. there are fewer gps now than when you made a promise to increase them. we when you made a promise to increase them. ~ :, : when you made a promise to increase them. . . : ~:: :: when you made a promise to increase j them-— there them. we have recruited 2600. there are fewer full-time _ them. we have recruited 2600. there are fewer full-time gps _ them. we have recruited 2600. there are fewer full-time gps and _ them. we have recruited 2600. there are fewer full-time gps and you - are fewer full—time gps and you promised 6000 more. we

are fewer full-time gps and you promised 6000 more.— are fewer full-time gps and you promised 6000 more. we want to recruit more _ promised 6000 more. we want to recruit more gps. _ promised 6000 more. we want to recruit more gps. we _ promised 6000 more. we want to recruit more gps. we know- promised 6000 more. we want to recruit more gps. we know some | promised 6000 more. we want to i recruit more gps. we know some of the challenges they have faced, particularly coming out of the pandemic where people stayed away from the nhs and had... that they had conditions they were concerned about, they perhaps were not coming to the doctors during the pandemic because they were worried about covid and the pandemic. we know there is that group of people coming forward. i would there is that group of people coming forward. iwould point there is that group of people coming forward. i would point to the fact, i am extremely grateful to gps or delivering this. we had again reached another election promise we made in 2019 50 million more gp appointments in 2019. that is really important. appointments in 2019. that is really im ortant. :, appointments in 2019. that is really imortant. . . , appointments in 2019. that is really imortant. . . important. that includes covid vaccinations. _ important. that includes covid vaccinations. that _ important. that includes covid vaccinations. that is _ important. that includes covid vaccinations. that is an - important. that includes covid i vaccinations. that is an important art. in a vaccinations. that is an important part- in a yes _ vaccinations. that is an important part- in a yes or— vaccinations. that is an important part. in a yes or no _ vaccinations. that is an important part. in a yes or no answer- vaccinations. that is an important part. in a yes or no answer to - vaccinations. that is an important| part. in a yes or no answer to this, lease. part. in a yes or no answer to this, please- ls — part. in a yes or no answer to this, please- is the _ part. in a yes or no answer to this, please. is the nhs _ part. in a yes or no answer to this, please. is the nhs going _ part. in a yes or no answer to this, please. is the nhs going to - part. in a yes or no answer to this, please. is the nhs going to avoid l part. in a yes or no answer to this, | please. is the nhs going to avoid a winter crisis? brute please. is the nhs going to avoid a winter crisis?— please. is the nhs going to avoid a winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do _

winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do this. _ winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do this. it _ winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do this. it is _ winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do this. it is my - winter crisis? we will do everything we can to do this. it is my number. we can to do this. it is my number one priority for the winter. i know the worry people have, particularly when an accident or something like that happens, a full happens, we will do everything we can. the nhs has been working very hard to prepare for this winter. sounds like ou are prepare for this winter. sounds like you are hoping _ prepare for this winter. sounds like you are hoping for _ prepare for this winter. sounds like you are hoping for the _ prepare for this winter. sounds like you are hoping for the best - prepare for this winter. sounds like you are hoping for the best that - prepare for this winter. sounds like | you are hoping for the best that you cannot rule it out. we you are hoping for the best that you cannot rule it out.— cannot rule it out. we have started to ian cannot rule it out. we have started to plan earlier- _ cannot rule it out. we have started to plan earlier. we _ cannot rule it out. we have started to plan earlier. we have _ cannot rule it out. we have started to plan earlier. we have more - to plan earlier. we have more beds and more ambulances on road. through access like to appointments, i know not everybody likes them, but actually for some people they really make a difference. it is actually for some people they really make a difference.— make a difference. it is the first time we have — make a difference. it is the first time we have had _ make a difference. it is the first time we have had you _ make a difference. it is the first time we have had you in - make a difference. it is the first time we have had you in this . make a difference. it is the first| time we have had you in this job make a difference. it is the first - time we have had you in this job and time we have had you in thisjob and we are running short of time. can i ask a few quick questions? people might like to get an idea of the kind of health secretary you might be. can you intervene? do you think there should be more taxes on naughty foods? 1

there should be more taxes on naughty foods?— there should be more taxes on naughty foods? there should be more taxes on nau:h foods? :, :, naughty foods? i am determined to reform the nhs _ naughty foods? i am determined to reform the nhs and _ naughty foods? i am determined to reform the nhs and health - naughty foods? i am determined to reform the nhs and health care - reform the nhs and health care system to make it faster, simpler and fairer. i will focus on things like geographical disparities. in my rural constituency in lincolnshire, it can be difficult to get access to services we see in the centre of cities. that will be my focus. [30 cities. that will be my focus. do ou have cities. that will be my focus. do you have any unhealthy vices? i | cities. that will be my focus. do - you have any unhealthy vices? i have admitted to — you have any unhealthy vices? i have admitted to a — you have any unhealthy vices? i have admitted to a liking _ you have any unhealthy vices? i have admitted to a liking for— you have any unhealthy vices? i have admitted to a liking for chocolate - admitted to a liking for chocolate hobnobs. , , hobnobs. viewers might be interested, _ hobnobs. viewers might be interested, people - hobnobs. viewers might be interested, people will - hobnobs. viewers might be| interested, people will have hobnobs. viewers might be - interested, people will have seen in the papers your husband has a big job in a big sugar company, can you give an idea of the kind of decisions you might set out from? i decisions you might set out from? i have always not only declared that recuse myself from anything that may give the potential of a perception of conflict. i have done that in this department, of course i did. i am an independently minded women. 1 am an independently minded women. i am an independently minded women. i

am not suggesting any different. i am not suggesting any different. i am taking it very seriously. i am not suggesting any different. i am taking it very seriously. i have recused myself from sugar and anything that they had a perception of being involved.— of being involved. there was an important _ of being involved. there was an important vote _ of being involved. there was an important vote in _ of being involved. there was an important vote in the _ of being involved. there was an important vote in the house - of being involved. there was an important vote in the house of| important vote in the house of commons this week about victims of the contaminated blood scandal. a lot of viewers will be aware of this injustice running for a lot of years. will you support a body to administer compensation for these victims? it will be a big statement and important for you to do so for many people. i and important for you to do so for many people-— and important for you to do so for man --eole. . , :, ., many people. i am very familiar with these circumstances. _ many people. i am very familiar with these circumstances. i— many people. i am very familiar with these circumstances. i had _ many people. i am very familiar with these circumstances. i had a - these circumstances. i had a constituent i have worked with for many years he has been affected by this. what we had done so far, the inquiry has been called. we have made interim payments importantly to those affected, victims of the scandal itself. it is right we take our time. we have to think through

the consequences of that in terms of legislation. fin the consequences of that in terms of leaislation. ., :, , , . ., legislation. on another sub'ect, an imortant legislation. on another sub'ect, an important fl legislation. on another sub'ect, an important one, reports _ legislation. on another subject, an important one, reports this - legislation. on another subject, an l important one, reports this morning there are uk military planes conducting surveillance over gaza. what are they doing? thea;t conducting surveillance over gaza. what are they doing?— what are they doing? they are unarmed and _ what are they doing? they are unarmed and unmanned - what are they doing? they are l unarmed and unmanned drones. what are they doing? they are - unarmed and unmanned drones. they are there to look for hostages. although some hostages have been released, there are many more who still need to be released from captivity. they are there to support that effort. :, .. captivity. they are there to support that effort. :, «o , :, , captivity. they are there to support that effort. :, ~' , :, , : captivity. they are there to support that effort. :, «o , :, , . :, that effort. thank you very much for bein: with that effort. thank you very much for being with us _ that effort. thank you very much for being with us in _ that effort. thank you very much for being with us in the _ that effort. thank you very much for being with us in the studio - that effort. thank you very much for being with us in the studio this - being with us in the studio this morning. what do you think? let us know. e—mail us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk. or on social, use the hashtag #bbclaurak. and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show. let's get a view from the panel. what did you think of what she had to say? i what did you think of what she had to sa ? :, ., , .

what did you think of what she had tosa? :, : ., to say? i thought it was... we are not a to say? i thought it was... we are rlot a trade _ to say? i thought it was... we are not a trade union. _ to say? i thought it was... we are not a trade union. we _ to say? i thought it was... we are not a trade union. we do - to say? i thought it was... we are not a trade union. we do not - to say? i thought it was... we are| not a trade union. we do not make any decisions on pay at all. that is thejob of the any decisions on pay at all. that is the job of the dna. any decisions on pay at all. that is thejob of the dna. we any decisions on pay at all. that is the job of the dna. we are pleased to see the progress that has been made. it is not sorted yet. —— the v&a. junior doctors have valid reasons for discontent which need to be listened to. things need to change in the way they work. there are national think tank report suggesting the waiting list problem is notjust due to industrial action and so i think we need to take that with a pinch of salt. and i think thatis with a pinch of salt. and i think that is not the simple solution to the waiting list problem. interesting to hear her pointing the finger and saying it is the strikes what done it. from the grass, little going up long before the strikes and long before the pandemic. this going up long before the strikes and long before the pandemic.— long before the pandemic. this has been auoin long before the pandemic. this has been going on _ long before the pandemic. this has been going on for— long before the pandemic. this has been going on for a _ long before the pandemic. this has been going on for a long _ long before the pandemic. this has been going on for a long time. -

long before the pandemic. this has. been going on for a long time. when you are _ been going on for a long time. when you are as— been going on for a long time. when you are as old as i am, you see many health— you are as old as i am, you see many health secretaries from all political persuasions making promises, tinkering around the edges — promises, tinkering around the edges it — promises, tinkering around the edges. it needs root and branch reform. — edges. it needs root and branch reform, the nhs. i do not understand why we _ reform, the nhs. i do not understand why we do— reform, the nhs. i do not understand why we do not have a cross—party initiative — why we do not have a cross—party initiative. everybody put the political _ initiative. everybody put the political football down, sit down and go. — political football down, sit down and go, this needs to be sorted out. it is and go, this needs to be sorted out. it is a _ and go, this needs to be sorted out. it is a great — and go, this needs to be sorted out. it is a great thing, a great institution but we all need to come to an _ institution but we all need to come to an agreement on how we are going to an agreement on how we are going to do this _ to an agreement on how we are going to do this sensibly without every time _ to do this sensibly without every time a _ to do this sensibly without every time a health secretary says something, the other party should sit down _ something, the other party should sit down in — something, the other party should sit down in flames. sit down and sort it— sit down in flames. sit down and sort it out — sit down in flames. sit down and sort it out. de sit down in flames. sit down and sort it out-— sort it out. de think it is possible? _ sort it out. de think it is possible? you _ sort it out. de think it is possible? you could - sort it out. de think it is. possible? you could have sort it out. de think it is i possible? you could have a sort it out. de think it is - possible? you could have a royal commission- _ possible? you could have a royal commission. it _ possible? you could have a royal commission. it seems _ possible? you could have a royal commission. it seems however i possible? you could have a royal - commission. it seems however much ntoney_ commission. it seems however much money is _ commission. it seems however much money is pumped _ commission. it seems however much money is pumped into _ commission. it seems however much money is pumped into the _ commission. it seems however much money is pumped into the nhs - commission. it seems however much money is pumped into the nhs year. commission. it seems however muchl money is pumped into the nhs year in year out, _ money is pumped into the nhs year in year out, and — money is pumped into the nhs year in year out, and each _ money is pumped into the nhs year in year out, and each health _ money is pumped into the nhs year in year out, and each health secretary. year out, and each health secretary base about — year out, and each health secretary base about extra _ year out, and each health secretary base about extra money— year out, and each health secretary base about extra money going - year out, and each health secretary base about extra money going in, l year out, and each health secretary base about extra money going in, itj base about extra money going in, it doesn't _ base about extra money going in, it doesn't seem — base about extra money going in, it doesn't seem to _ base about extra money going in, it doesn't seem to actually _ base about extra money going in, it doesn't seem to actually make - base about extra money going in, it doesn't seem to actually make a . doesn't seem to actually make a difference — doesn't seem to actually make a difference. there _ doesn't seem to actually make a difference. there has _ doesn't seem to actually make a difference. there has to - doesn't seem to actually make a difference. there has to be, - doesn't seem to actually make a difference. there has to be, as i doesn't seem to actually make a . difference. there has to be, as you say, _ difference. there has to be, as you say, there — difference. there has to be, as you say. there has—

difference. there has to be, as you say. there has to _ difference. there has to be, as you say, there has to be _ difference. there has to be, as you say, there has to be root _ difference. there has to be, as you say, there has to be root and - difference. there has to be, as you. say, there has to be root and branch reform _ say, there has to be root and branch reform. ~ :, say, there has to be root and branch reform. . . ., say, there has to be root and branch reform. . :, :, say, there has to be root and branch reform. . . ., ,, | reform. what might that look like? i was very pleased — reform. what might that look like? i was very pleased that _ reform. what might that look like? i was very pleased that wes _ reform. what might that look like? i was very pleased that wes streeting j was very pleased that wes streeting is going _ was very pleased that wes streeting is going to _ was very pleased that wes streeting is going to australia. _ was very pleased that wes streeting is going to australia. he _ was very pleased that wes streeting is going to australia. he is - was very pleased that wes streeting is going to australia. he is looking l is going to australia. he is looking at the _ is going to australia. he is looking at the fact— is going to australia. he is looking at the fact they _ is going to australia. he is looking at the fact they have _ is going to australia. he is looking at the fact they have better - is going to australia. he is looking at the fact they have better life . at the fact they have better life expectancy_ at the fact they have better life expectancy than _ at the fact they have better life expectancy than us, _ at the fact they have better life expectancy than us, partly- at the fact they have better life - expectancy than us, partly because they have _ expectancy than us, partly because they have an— expectancy than us, partly because they have an integrated _ expectancy than us, partly because they have an integrated system - they have an integrated system between — they have an integrated system between national— they have an integrated system between national state - they have an integrated system between national state and - they have an integrated system l between national state and local. also because _ between national state and local. also because they— between national state and local. also because they develop - also because they develop preventatively. _ also because they develop preventatively. they - also because they develop preventatively. they put . also because they develop - preventatively. they put money into trying _ preventatively. they put money into trying to _ preventatively. they put money into trying to cost — preventatively. they put money into trying to cost effectively— preventatively. they put money into trying to cost effectively stop - trying to cost effectively stop people — trying to cost effectively stop people from _ trying to cost effectively stop people from going _ trying to cost effectively stop people from going to - trying to cost effectively stop. people from going to hospitals trying to cost effectively stop - people from going to hospitals in the first— people from going to hospitals in the first place. _ people from going to hospitals in the first place. i— people from going to hospitals in the first place. i think— people from going to hospitals in the first place. i think that - people from going to hospitals in the first place. i think that is - the first place. i think that is something _ the first place. i think that is something victoria _ the first place. i think that is something victoria atkins i the first place. i think that is something victoria atkins isl the first place. i think that is - something victoria atkins is looking at as well — something victoria atkins is looking at as well flue — something victoria atkins is looking at as well. ~ :, .. something victoria atkins is looking at as well. . ., ,, :, ., ., at as well. we will talk to jonathan re nolds at as well. we will talk to jonathan reynolds in _ at as well. we will talk to jonathan reynolds in a _ at as well. we will talk to jonathan reynolds in a few _ at as well. we will talk to jonathan reynolds in a few minutes. - at as well. we will talk to jonathan reynolds in a few minutes. there i at as well. we will talk to jonathan| reynolds in a few minutes. there is a valid point. all this money goes in, health secretaries enjoy boasting about it. the taxpayer, more doctors, more money, in lots of cases care getting worse and waiting is going up. what i was meant to think? paying all this tax, the nhs is protected, what is going wrong?

the number of full—time qualified gps is going down. we are pushing young doctors into general practice but they are leaving the profession faster than entering it, going to australia, new zealand, canada where they have a better quality of life and where they have a better work life balance than here. you have to bear in mind over the 30 years i have been a gp, medicine has changed dramatically. of course it will be more expensive. people are surviving who would not have survived when i was a junior. we have impressive treatments keeping people alive with a better quality of life than ever before in terms of heart disease, stroke and so on. so it does cost more. to an extent we have to decide what we want to play for as a country. we also need to look at the nhs in terms of its management, and where there is

waste. , management, and where there is waste. ., management, and where there is waste. . . , waste. some say there are too many manauers waste. some say there are too many managers but — waste. some say there are too many managers but academic— waste. some say there are too many managers but academic studies - waste. some say there are too many managers but academic studies sayl waste. some say there are too many l managers but academic studies say we need more managers, it needs to be better managed. is management a bogeyman? the better managed. is management a bone man? ~' , :, better managed. is management a bogeyman?— bogeyman? the keyword is waste, there is a lot _ bogeyman? the keyword is waste, there is a lot of _ bogeyman? the keyword is waste, there is a lot of waste _ bogeyman? the keyword is waste, there is a lot of waste within - bogeyman? the keyword is waste, there is a lot of waste within the l there is a lot of waste within the nhs, _ there is a lot of waste within the nhs, unnecessary waste. i don't know nhs, unnecessary waste. idon't know about— nhs, unnecessary waste. i don't know about this, _ nhs, unnecessary waste. i don't know about this, they talk about it cost £68 to _ about this, they talk about it cost £68 to change a light bulb because they outsource it, all of that. just somebody— they outsource it, all of that. just somebody that will look at an overview _ somebody that will look at an overview would make a huge difference. a lot of unnecessary testing — difference. a lot of unnecessary testing were more experienced staff could take a judgment that a test is not needed. too much medication handed _ not needed. too much medication handed out— not needed. too much medication handed out that is unnecessary. things— handed out that is unnecessary. things like that, that would stop potting _ things like that, that would stop potting it — things like that, that would stop potting it in the right direction. you three — potting it in the right direction. you three have done our programme advert for a royal commission and

someone to look at that. the chancellor has already announced a review of public service productivity. it might not have escaped your notice last week we had the greek prime minister on a programme he repeated his country's position they would like the elgin marbles to be returned to athens. rishi sunak has taken it badly and cancelled their meeting and it ended up with a diplomatic spat. yanis varoufakis is former minister of finance of greece. our people have been allies for 200 years. i british soldiers and greek soldiers, l we have shed blood together for 200 years, in all the major conflicts. it is pathetic to have a spat over this. - pathetic to have a row? we _ pathetic to have a row? we have _ pathetic to have a row? we have been having a row over this further— we have been having a row over this further over— we have been having a row over this further over 60 years. so, yes, it is pathetic —

further over 60 years. so, yes, it is pathetic. it is unnecessary. meetings— is pathetic. it is unnecessary. meetings between heads of government reguire _ meetings between heads of government require sherpas to talk about what is to be _ require sherpas to talk about what is to be discussed beforehand. when it became _ is to be discussed beforehand. when it became clear rhys would not stick to what _ it became clear rhys would not stick to what had been agreed, —— the greek— to what had been agreed, —— the greek government would not stick to what had _ greek government would not stick to what had been agreed. so rishi sunak decided _ what had been agreed. so rishi sunak decided to— what had been agreed. so rishi sunak decided to turn it into a big row. wasn't _ decided to turn it into a big row. wasn't that— decided to turn it into a big row. wasn't that wise? i don't know whether— wasn't that wise? i don't know whether politically it was wise. in terms _ whether politically it was wise. in terms of— whether politically it was wise. in terms of what the elgin marbles are about— terms of what the elgin marbles are about and _ terms of what the elgin marbles are about and reminding the british people — about and reminding the british people why they should stay in london. — people why they should stay in london, and getting that argument out there _ london, and getting that argument out there again, maybe that is a good _ out there again, maybe that is a good thing. next year or whenever the labour— good thing. next year or whenever the labour party come to power. are ou sure the labour party come to power. you sure that is the labour party come to power. 3“? you sure that is going to the labour party come to power. 3539 you sure that is going to happen? no, but nonetheless, looking at the polls suggest it might. they will be

in the _ polls suggest it might. they will be in the same situation as rishi sunak — in the same situation as rishi sunak. , , , sunak. despite the huge debate, the stance of both _ sunak. despite the huge debate, the stance of both parties _ sunak. despite the huge debate, the stance of both parties is _ sunak. despite the huge debate, the stance of both parties is the - sunak. despite the huge debate, the stance of both parties is the same, i stance of both parties is the same, if the british museum could agree alone, that would happen. having watched diplomatic spats over the years, were you surprised by this, ending up with the king, i am sure completely by accident, wearing a tie with the greek flag on it, at an international summit, we can show our viewers a picture of it. the greek flag. if he was trying to make a point, he could hardly have been clearer. i a point, he could hardly have been clearer. .. a point, he could hardly have been clearer. ~' ., , , a point, he could hardly have been clearer. ~' ., , 3 :, clearer. i think he was trying to brin: the clearer. i think he was trying to bring the blue _ clearer. i think he was trying to bring the blue out _ clearer. i think he was trying to bring the blue out in _ clearer. i think he was trying to bring the blue out in his - clearer. i think he was trying to bring the blue out in his eyes. i clearer. i think he was trying to i bring the blue out in his eyes. do voters...? no, _ bring the blue out in his eyes. do voters...? no, i— bring the blue out in his eyes. do voters...? no, i red— bring the blue out in his eyes. do voters...? no, i red if— bring the blue out in his eyes. do voters...? no, i red if anything,| voters...? no, i red if anything, which said _ voters...? no, i red if anything, which said that _ voters...? no, i red if anything, which said that this _ voters...? no, i red if anything, which said that this is _ voters...? no, i red if anything, which said that this is what - voters...? no, i red if anything, which said that this is what 3d i which said that this is what 3d printers are for. split them up. we will have that, they can have the other one.

will have that, they can have the other one-— other one. you are creative this morning! _ well, it's not hard for labour to criticise the state of the health service. but its big promises on waiting lists and more appointments are easier to say than to do. how different would it really be if the party was in charge? jonathan reynolds, the shadow business secretary, is with us from salford. good morning. we will start with something else first. so this morning your boss is telling the world that margaret thatcher dragged britain out of its stupor — what is he up to? the point keir starmer is making is that he has changed the labour party and on the strength of that he can go to people and say we can change the country. there have been prime ministers who have done that, think of clement attlee, tony blair, margaret thatcher were forces for change. if people want change it is

the labour party that will be the vehicle to do that. if they want more of the same that is the conservatives. keir starmer is saying if you want national renewal labour is the vehicle to do that. what are your views on margaret thatcher? you can separate out the policy agenda. i come from a mining town in county durham. on a political level her policies are not something i would be sympathetic too but she is a formidable opponent and you have to give her respect for implementing agenda. there was a big change after the 1970s. there are prime ministers who do change the future of the country, who can wear that consistent and combined agenda that changes the part of the country. we haven't had that for 13 years. it is hard to keep track of the prime minister is let alone their agenda. there are some who do it

differently. i can recognise in margaret thatcher someone who does that even if i didn't support her policies. that even if i didn't support her olicies. :, that even if i didn't support her olicies. . ., :, :, , policies. there are a lot of people in the labour _ policies. there are a lot of people in the labour party _ policies. there are a lot of people in the labour party and _ policies. there are a lot of people in the labour party and on - policies. there are a lot of people in the labour party and on the - policies. there are a lot of people| in the labour party and on the left who still would find it, it sticks in their craw, to have their leader sighting margaret thatcher as a positive force. this keir starmer again trying to troll the left? no. he is setting out a prospectus for the country. everyone can get behind this. everyone knows there are conservatives in this country, who are dismayed at the performance of a conservative government. we should be reaching out to them to build a national coalition to bring change. if you are it was a conservative who wants people to own home, you are not getting that from this government. two conserve the natural environment... we can speak

to those people. the leaders, prime ministers who deliver change, they build a wider coalition than the one they inherited. every successful political leader, that is what they should be doing. keir starmer has also said this morning in the sunday telegraph that people are not certain about labour. if things are as awful as you suggest and labour is as appealing as you suggest, why do you think there are still people who are not certain about you? certain about you ? first, certain about you? first, the scale of change in labour since 2019 is, a lot of people might not have thought that possible to be so competitive. we are just not complacent about the future. we recognise people who have voted conservative are dismayed at their government. they can see labour has changed and they want to know more detail, can we deal with these people, can they be the force for

change we want them to be. we have to work harder. there is never going to work harder. there is never going to be a shred of complacency. if we saw a change of government i don't think there would ever have been a turnaround as dramatic as it would represent from the result labour got in 2019. we are proud of what we have done but we are not complacent and we are working exceptionally hard to win over more people, build the national coalition for change and national renewal. let us talk about how you might renew some things in the country. we have been talking about health this morning. one of your colleagues, andy burnham, the mayor of manchester, said this week inheritance tax should be overhauled to play for social care, do you agree? that is his personal proposal that he has been interested in for some

time, that is not national labour policy. there will always be a debate on these things. what i would agree with is a plan for the health service requires a plan for social care. we have specific commitments around their play agreements where we want standards for not just people who work in social care but the whole career that represents and that links to huge increases in health and social care. this is a huge national parity. it is about renewal of the health service, the money put into scrap non—dom tax regimes we then have available to put into different parts of the health service. and driving up standards. on that, you have made commitments about training in the workforce on social care. but we are yet to see a competitive set of proposals from

labour for social care. we have asked wes streeting who wants to be health secretary, asked him about it in autumn, and said when would be seeit? in autumn, and said when would be see it? he said he did not want to torpedo the october labour announcements. we have waited to see but saw nothing. when will there be a plan from labour on social care? on all of health and social care, we have incredibly specific commitments, funding commitments. that is not my question, when will we see a bid proposal for social care? many experts would agree with you, without a big plan for social care, the wider problems of the nhs are not going to be sold either. so when will we see from labour a comprehensive set of proposals for social care? that is what we are building up. you mentioned wes streeting and his visit to australia, we are looking at systems around the world, how do

they do it when resources are restricted? we are building up a manifesto for a general election next year. we absolutely agree that social care and health need a joint plan and that is what wes streeting and the shadow health team are committed to. it sounds as if it will be in the labour manifesto, a comprehensive plan for social care. but we will keep asking because our viewers care about it. a question of principle about the health service, under the conservatives health spending has been ring—fenced. is that something if you win office that labour would commit to doing forever that health will be protected? will be protected ? absolutely will be protected? absolutely we believe the health service has pride of place in public services. we would like a situation where we can grow the economy strongly so no department is facing

in terms real term cuts in the next parliament. but funding for health is important but so is reform and trying to find new ways to do things. in the nhs, one in five trust is using the same diagnostic equipment as they had put in in the last labour government. we have fewer machines per patient than australia, new zealand, the us. how you do things differently and give them the equipment they need to do things in a different way is as important as the funding. of all our achievements in office, the nhs is the one we are most proud of and will always be a public service free at the point of use. it will always be a big subject of political discussion. thank you for

joining us this morning. at home — one of the hardest problems for politicians to solve is the state of the health service. abroad, trying to slow down climate change is the challenge of a generation. world leaders are schmoozing right now in dubai at the climate summit cop 28 to try to do just that. but whose interests do they really represent? ndelike mandela is the granddaughter of nelson mandela. she's now an activist, and is there at the summit now. it is great to have you on the programme. we are pleased to have you. thank you for your time. this year's cop is being held in the seventh biggest oil producing country in the world. you'll name brings a certain cachet to the meeting. do you think world leaders are taking climate change seriously enough? i are taking climate change seriously

enou~h? :, ~' are taking climate change seriously enou~h? . ~' , are taking climate change seriously enou~h? :, ,, 3 ., enough? i do think they are, otherwise — enough? i do think they are, otherwise we _ enough? i do think they are, otherwise we wouldn't - enough? i do think they are, otherwise we wouldn't be . enough? i do think they are, - otherwise we wouldn't be having this cop28. we can't always be pointing fingers. the uae is an oil producing country. we need to meet around the table. our democratic dispensation in south africa was brought about by sitting around the table. similarly, with climate change, we need all hands on deck not to point fingers but to sit around and see what solutions we can come up with to come combat the effects of climate change. come combat the effects of climate chan . e. :, come combat the effects of climate chance. :, , come combat the effects of climate chance. . , , :, , , :, change. there have been promises of hundreds of— change. there have been promises of hundreds of millions _ change. there have been promises of hundreds of millions of _ change. there have been promises of hundreds of millions of dollars - change. there have been promises of hundreds of millions of dollars for. hundreds of millions of dollars for countries most badly affected. are you satisfied we are seeing the action which is required?- you satisfied we are seeing the action which is required? well, that

is. i action which is required? well, that is- i believe — action which is required? well, that is. i believe there _ action which is required? well, that is. i believe there could _ action which is required? well, that is. i believe there could still- action which is required? well, that is. i believe there could still be - is. i believe there could still be more. we have had other cop before. what for me is really lacking in what would be telling at the end of this summit is whether steps will be put into place to help consequence management countries don't adhere to what has been decided at this summit. what then? you cannotjust have summit after summit, policies which cannot be implementable without evaluating it the past ones have worked and what has not worked in the past. until such a time as we evaluate and look at the way forward, the decisions and agreements that have been reached at this summit are not adhered to. your grandfather — this summit are not adhered to. your grandfather change _ this summit are not adhered to. your grandfather change the world with his bravery and charisma and dismantling the apartheid system in south africa. you have talked about

climate apartheid. what do you mean by that and do you think your grandfather would approve of using that term in terms of what is going on? , : that term in terms of what is going on? , ~ ,. ., , that term in terms of what is going on? , on? yes. apartheid was a systematic... _ on? yes. apartheid was a systematic... a _ on? yes. apartheid was a l systematic... a systematic on? yes. apartheid was a - systematic... a systematic method on? yes. apartheid was a _ systematic... a systematic method of discriminating against people, it subjugated especially black people. it was held by a view, a minority group, which was subjugating black people and humiliating them on a daily basis. i call it climate apartheid because that has been exploited to the global stage where the global north is using economic and legal power to subjugate poor nations, who are at the brunt of the effects of climate change. that is why i call it climate apartheid, it is a similarway

why i call it climate apartheid, it is a similar way to apartheid using economic and legal power to subjugate black people. similarly, the global north is subjugating the global south with carbon emissions. africa and the global south has the smallest percentage of carbon emissions, more than the global north. that is why i call it climate apartheid. north. that is why i call it climate a artheid. :, north. that is why i call it climate aartheid. :, ., ., ., ., apartheid. your grandfather had a close relationship _ apartheid. your grandfather had a close relationship with _ apartheid. your grandfather had a close relationship with the - apartheid. your grandfather had a close relationship with the late i close relationship with the late queen and king charles has been at cop this week urging world leaders to do more. you where there are still ripples of colonialism and apartheid in south africa and the british royal family still benefits from colonial structures. do you think the royal family should think about paying reparations? that think the royal family should think about paying reparations?- about paying reparations? that is a tou~h one! about paying reparations? that is a tough one! l _ about paying reparations? that is a tough one! i think— about paying reparations? that is a tough one! i think it _ about paying reparations? that is a tough one! i think it starts - about paying reparations? that is a

tough one! i think it starts with - tough one! i think it starts with acknowledging the full reparations. if there can be an acknowledgement of what was done to countries that were colonised. we are still suffering a great deal from colonisation. as far as our culture, as black people, is concerned. there has got to be first admission of the fact that yes, we acknowledge that we displaced you as a people. then we displaced you as a people. then we can talk of reparations.- we can talk of reparations. would ou like we can talk of reparations. would you like to _ we can talk of reparations. would you like to see — we can talk of reparations. would you like to see that _ we can talk of reparations. would you like to see that kind - we can talk of reparations. would you like to see that kind of- we can talk of reparations. would you like to see that kind of thingl you like to see that kind of thing from the british royal family? yes. from the british royal family? yes, i would. from the british royal family? yes, i would- that _ from the british royal family? yes, i would. that is _ from the british royal family? yes, i would. that is where _ from the british royal family? 193 i would. that is where healing begins. if you are arguing with the next person, when you sit around the table and admit you are part, both parties admit they are parked in the dissolution of whatever it is that happens, it is then that healing

begins. if that happens where healing will definitely begin. you have written _ healing will definitely begin. you have written about the role of the duke and duchess of sussex, harry and meghan. you said they were widening the boundaries of discourse and bringing some unsavoury realities to light. i am sure you know there has been a lot of argument about their role and recently about whether or not the potential appearance of their unborn baby was discussed by members of the royal family. do you believe that harry and meghan were victims of racism in this country can do you think? i racism in this country can do you think? , ., , racism in this country can do you think? , ., 3 ., racism in this country can do you think? , . 3 ., ~ ., think? i believe harry and meghan had to find their _ think? i believe harry and meghan had to find their own _ think? i believe harry and meghan had to find their own voice, - think? i believe harry and meghan had to find their own voice, in - think? i believe harry and meghan had to find their own voice, in a i had to find their own voice, in a similar way that granddad had to find his own voice when he was... he had to run away from an arranged marriage. they should be given like any other person, room to voice out

whatever their misgivings are. i cannot speak to whether harry and meghan's children have been discriminated because i don't have that information. however, i can say, he should be allowed to voice out whatever it is that he wants to voice out and choose his own past. had granddad not chosen his own path, when he ran away from an arranged marriage, we wouldn't be here talking today. people should be allowed to walk their own journeys in life. thank you forjoining us. great to have your new programme. let's pick up have your new programme. let's pick up on that story we were talking about. the race row which started a long time ago with comments from harry and meghan and a tell all interview with oprah winfrey. in the last two days, in case people have been living

under a rock, there has been a row because two members of the royal family have been named by accident, supposedly. the royal family might take legal action and acknowledge it somehow, what will he return? that would be very _ somehow, what will he return? tusgit would be very unusual for the royal family to take legal action. the whole never complained and never explain thing makes it difficult when accusations like this are made. going back to their oprah winfrey interview, megan made it very clear that concerns were expressed about the baby plasma skin colour. that would suggest an element of racism. —— the baby's skin colour. harry then gave an interview saying we are not implying it was said in a racist way. now we have these names mysteriously appearing in a manuscript, which, this does not

happen. manuscript, which, this does not ha en. 9 :, manuscript, which, this does not ha en. 9 . :, manuscript, which, this does not hauen. . . ., manuscript, which, this does not ha en, : ., :, 1’ manuscript, which, this does not hauen. . ., :, «o, ., happen. what do you think should ha--en? happen. what do you think should ha en? i happen. what do you think should happen? l and _ happen. what do you think should happen? i and part _ happen. what do you think should happen? i and part of _ happen. what do you think should happen? i and part of a _ happen. what do you think should happen? i and part of a mixed - happen. what do you think should | happen? i and part of a mixed race famil . of happen? i and part of a mixed race family. of course _ happen? i and part of a mixed race family. of course we _ happen? i and part of a mixed race family. of course we talked - happen? i and part of a mixed race family. of course we talked about. family. of course we talked about the colour— family. of course we talked about the colour of our children and grandchildren. it is a common conversation in britain, which is a multicultural nation now, that kind of conversation happens all the time _ of conversation happens all the time it— of conversation happens all the time. it all depends on the context in which _ time. it all depends on the context in which it— time. it all depends on the context in which it was said. was it said in a racist _ in which it was said. was it said in a racist way— in which it was said. was it said in a racist way or not? we do not know. just a racist way or not? we do not know. just pick— a racist way or not? we do not know. just pick up _ a racist way or not? we do not know. just pick up on — a racist way or not? we do not know. just pick up on a couple of things that miss— just pick up on a couple of things that miss mandela _ just pick up on a couple of things that miss mandela said? - just pick up on a couple of things that miss mandela said? south l just pick up on a couple of things - that miss mandela said? south africa became _ that miss mandela said? south africa became independent _ that miss mandela said? south africa became independent in _ that miss mandela said? south africa became independent in 1906. - that miss mandela said? south africa became independent in 1906. to- that miss mandela said? south africa became independent in 1906. to still blame _ became independent in 1906. to still blame 117_ became independent in 1906. to still blame "7 years — became independent in 1906. to still blame 117 years later— became independent in 1906. to still blame 117 years later colonialism - became independent in 1906. to still blame 117 years later colonialism is l blame 117 years later colonialism is ludicrous — blame 117 years later colonialism is ludicrous the _ blame 117 years later colonialism is ludicrous. the second _ blame 117 years later colonialism is ludicrous. the second thing - blame 117 years later colonialism is ludicrous. the second thing about. ludicrous. the second thing about the royal— ludicrous. the second thing about the royal family_ ludicrous. the second thing about the royal family paying _ ludicrous. the second thing about l the royal family paying reparations is also _ the royal family paying reparations is also wrong — the royal family paying reparations is also wrong. no _ the royal family paying reparations is also wrong. no king _ the royal family paying reparations is also wrong. no king has - the royal family paying reparations is also wrong. no king has owned . is also wrong. no king has owned slave _ is also wrong. no king has owned slave since — is also wrong. no king has owned slave since charles _ is also wrong. no king has owned slave since charles ii. _ is also wrong. no king has owned slave since charles ii. you - is also wrong. no king has owned slave since charles ii. you need i slave since charles ii. you need historical— slave since charles ii. you need historical context. _ slave since charles ii. you need historical context. with - slave since charles ii. you need historical context. with regardsj slave since charles ii. you need . historical context. with regards to the race _ historical context. with regards to the race row, _ historical context. with regards to the race row, it _ historical context. with regards to the race row, it is _ historical context. with regards to the race row, it is up _ historical context. with regards to

the race row, it is up to— historical context. with regards to the race row, it is up to prince - the race row, it is up to prince harry— the race row, it is up to prince harry to — the race row, it is up to prince harry to say— the race row, it is up to prince harry to say it _ the race row, it is up to prince harry to say it is _ the race row, it is up to prince harry to say it is a _ the race row, it is up to prince harry to say it is a terrible - the race row, it is up to prince harry to say it is a terrible lie. harry to say it is a terrible lie and _ harry to say it is a terrible lie and his— harry to say it is a terrible lie and his father— harry to say it is a terrible lie and his father and _ harry to say it is a terrible lie and his father and sister- harry to say it is a terrible lie and his father and sister in l harry to say it is a terrible lie. and his father and sister in law harry to say it is a terrible lie - and his father and sister in law are not racist~ — and his father and sister in law are not racist. , , not racist. the ball is in his court. thank— not racist. the ball is in his court. thank you _ not racist. the ball is in his court. thank you so - not racist. the ball is in his court. thank you so much. not racist. the ball is in his l court. thank you so much for not racist. the ball is in his - court. thank you so much for being with us this morning. we've spent most of this morning talking about health. there are few issues closer to any voters' hearts than what happens to the nhs. right now it's not pretty, despite the prime minister's many promises to bring waiting lists down, and last year's talk of trying to solve the problems of social care. the new health secretary victoria atkins acknowledges we face a difficult winter. we are going to do everything we can to do this. it is my number one priority for winter. i know the worry that people have, particularly when an accident or something like that happens. we will do everything we can. in fairness, the nhs has been working very hard to prepare for this winter. lots of you have been getting in touch with your thoughts. full gen says he has reluctantly

taken out private health insurance. don't be surprised if, as the temperatures plummet and winter colds and flu do their worst, the pressure rises on ministers and managers to make the health service work after it was battered by the pandemic. you'll likely hear more about that at more box office appearances at the covid inquiry this week. but the problems began long before. an ageing population cranks up demand and, in parts, the system is frayed. but the standard of care we get is certain to be one of the most talked—about real—world factors in the next election. thanks to jane, andrew and kamila for being with us. and to you for watching. in a second i'll be with paddy o'connell for this sunday's newscast, later on bbc sounds. you can go to the iplayer if you

want to catch up with anything. or i'll simply see you here, next week, same time, same place. goodbye.

live from jerusalem. this is bbc news. israel intensifies its military

operation in gaza with heavy bombardments in the south — following the end of the truce. it comes as the us defence secretary warns israel it risks driving civilians into the arms of the enemy. azadeh moshiri in london. one person is killed and two injured in a knife and hammer attack in central paris. a first for the un climate summit — world leaders discuss the impact of climate change on health. and snow warnings are issued across the uk. heavy snowfall leads to a "major incident" in cumbria. hello, you are live with bbc news. i am anna foster, here injerusalem.

israel has intensified its military operations