scientists, the evidence from those scientists, the evidence from those scientists, the civil servants, and all the other different areas of the government. , in the end it was borisjohnson who had to make those big decisions. nick eardley has come back to talk to us again. this is a huge day. we were talking to lobby, the guests earlier, oonagh cousins and sammie mcfarland from a long covid group. we can look back on the politics of this and it feels like a big moment in history but, ultimately, it was a shared and lived experience for this nation living through the pandemic. important to remember over the next couple of days borisjohnson's character fascinates political people like me. it is a question that will keep being asked, was he the right person? but the fundamental question at the heart of the next couple of days is was the government working properly and i didn't get the big calls right? i

think everybody accepts, or a lot of people accept you wouldn't make every decision in an absolutely perfect way in an unprecedented situation, but it's that sense of did borisjohnson and his number 10 operation understand how big covid was early enough? did they make the first lockdown decision quickly enough and did they learn lessons as they were going on? there have been all these claims about borisjohnson being dismissive of some of the science, talking about letting the bodies pile high, suggesting old people should be allowed to get the virus to allow young people to go about their daily business. that all matters because a guest at the heart of the decision—making process. it was the prime minister at the time taking it seriously enough and therefore making the right calls when he needed to? that's what the next couple of days all about. you mentioned — next couple of days all about. you mentioned some _ next couple of days all about. you mentioned some of those awkward moments borisjohnson will have to answerfor, the whatsapp messages, the real crass comments that were made admittedly behind closed doors

and were never really meant to see the light of day, we had patrick vallance's dai rees, plenty has come out about that and how things were working in the background and some of these crass statements that were made —— dai rees. as he said there were never meant to be seen. boris johnson i suspect never meant for any of his whatsapp messages to be heard. but i guess it never comes as a surprise that some of these things will be really uncomfortable for many of the protesters to hear, but that kind of fits with his personality, to have a bit of a joke, which doesn't necessarily mean he was underplaying it, it was maybe a coping mechanism. because at the end of the day borisjohnson and his team were all human as well and these were unprecedented times. maybe his coping mechanism was having a bit of a laugh about it because the situation was so awful. are we being too prudish byjudging him? the

are we being too prudish by “udging him? , ., , ., ., ., him? the questions about language are important— him? the questions about language are important because _ him? the questions about language are important because they - him? the questions about language are important because they go - him? the questions about language are important because they go to i him? the questions about language l are important because they go to the heart of the culture in number 10. i think a lot of people won't be surprised to hear that political aides under a lot of stress swear a lot and often use pretty crass language. one of the other thing that kept coming up, helen mcnamara, former senior civil servant, was suggesting that there was a sign of something more widespread. that actually the decision—making process was dominated by men, was a bit misogynist, so a lot of things were being forgotten about like childcare, lack access to abortion and things like that over the course of the early months of the pandemic. so it is serious in that sense. i think the wider reason it is serious... think the wider reason it is serious- - -_ think the wider reason it is serious... �* ., ., , serious... i'm going to stop you there because _ serious... i'm going to stop you there because i _ serious. .. i'm going to stop you there because i think— serious... i'm going to stop you there because i think the - serious... i'm going to stop you there because i think the big i serious... i'm going to stop you - there because i think the big moment is about to begin an borisjohnson is about to begin an borisjohnson is about to start giving evidence here at the covid inquiry. so as to allow the sharing of materials prior

to hearings to in those most involved in the inquiry process. failing to respect confidentiality undermines the inquiry�*s ability to do itsjob fairly, effectively undermines the inquiry�*s ability to do its job fairly, effectively and independently.— do its job fairly, effectively and indeendentl. . ~ ., independently. thank you. today's witnesses boris _ independently. thank you. today's witnesses boris johnson. - independently. thank you. today's witnesses boris johnson. i - independently. thank you. today's witnesses boris johnson. i swear l independently. thank you. today's| witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almiuh witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almighty god _ witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almighty god that _ witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almighty god that the _ witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almighty god that the evidence - witnesses boris johnson. i swear by almighty god that the evidence i i almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. could you commence your evidence, please, by giving us your full name? alexander boris de pfeffeljohnson. thank you, mrjohnson. thank you for attending today and thank you for the provision of your witness statement 255836 dated 3ist the provision of your witness statement 255836 dated 31st august, as you know, and it contains the

usual declaration as to the truth of its contest no contents on the final page, i think page 233. mrjohnson, you were, of course, prime minister between 24th ofjuly 2019 when you are invited to form an administration following the resignation of theresa may as leader of the conservative party and the 6th of september 2022 menu you have announce your resignation earlier that year on the 7th ofjuly. is that year on the 7th ofjuly. is that correct?— that year on the 7th ofjuly. is that correct? , , ~ that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. b our that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave. — that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave. my _ that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave, my lady, - that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave, my lady, can - that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave, my lady, can i - that correct? yes, it is, mr keith. by your leave, my lady, can ijustj by your leave, my lady, can ijust say how glad i am to be at this inquiry and how sorry i am for the pain and the loss and the suffering...

pain and the loss and the suffering. . ._ pain and the loss and the sufferinu... ., , ., pain and the loss and the sufferin: . .. ., , ., ,, suffering... please, sit down! sit down. please _ suffering... please, sit down! sit down. please sit _ suffering... please, sit down! sit down. please sit down _ suffering... please, sit down! sit down. please sit down or- suffering... please, sit down! sit i down. please sit down or i'm afraid youfl— down. please sit down or i'm afraid you'll have — down. please sit down or i'm afraid youll have to — down. please sit down or i'm afraid you'll have to leave _ down. please sit down or i'm afraid you'll have to leave the _ down. please sit down or i'm afraid you'll have to leave the hearing - you'll have to leave the hearing room — you'll have to leave the hearing room i'm — you'll have to leave the hearing room i'm sorry, _ you'll have to leave the hearing room. i'm sorry, if— you'll have to leave the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you - you'll have to leave the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't i you'll have to leave the hearing j room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down _ room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and — room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and going _ room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and going to _ room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and going to ask- room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and going to ask the - room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit. down and going to ask the asher's room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit - down and going to ask the asher's to -et down and going to ask the asher's to get you _ down and going to ask the asher's to get you to _ down and going to ask the asher's to get you to leavo _ down and going to ask the asher's to get you to leave. right, _ down and going to ask the asher's to get you to leave. right, asher's, - get you to leave. right, asher's, please _ get you to leave. right, asher's, please could _ get you to leave. right, asher's, please could you _ get you to leave. right, asher's, please could you ask— get you to leave. right, asher's, please could you ask them - get you to leave. right, asher's, - please could you ask them to leave? -- ushers _ —— ushers. could - —— ushers. could i- —— ushers. l could i say, —— ushers. - could i say, by your leave, that i understand the feelings of these victims and their families and i understand the feelings of these victims and theirfamilies and i am deeply sorry for the pain and the loss and the suffering of those victims and their families. loss and the suffering of those victims and theirfamilies. i'm grateful that i am to the hundreds of thousands of health care workers and many other public servants and people in all walks of life that protect our country throughout the

pandemic i do hope that this inquiry will help to get the answers to the very difficult questions that those victims and those families are rightly asking so that we can protect ourselves better, help each other to help protect ourselves better in the future and prevent further suffering. and if it is not too impertinent, as you rightly say, mr keith, as the person who set up this inquiry, how grateful i am to you for what you are doing and the immense care you are plainly taking. thank you. mr immense care you are plainly taking. thank ou. ~ g ., , immense care you are plainly taking. thank ou. ~ , ., thank you. mrjohnson, 'ust a few more questions h thank you. mrjohnson, 'ust a few more questions more, _ thank you. mrjohnson, just a few more questions more, please - thank you. mrjohnson, just a few. more questions more, please come thank you. mrjohnson, just a few- more questions more, please come in relation to your career. on the 9th ofjune 2023, did you announce your intention to stand down as the member of parliament for uxbridge and south ruislip, you then i think

formally resigned the following monday 12th ofjune when you appointed steward and bailiff of the 3005 appointed steward and bailiff of the 300s of cheltenham and you were previously foreign secretary and mayor of london? you correctly observe that you announced the institution of the statutory inquiry on the 12th of may 2021. you ordered the institution of a full and independent public inquiry, did you not? i independent public inquiry, did you not? ~ �* , not? i did, mr keith. and i believe that's the right _ not? i did, mr keith. and i believe that's the right way _ not? i did, mr keith. and i believe that's the right way forward. - not? i did, mr keith. and i believej that's the right way forward. when ou made that's the right way forward. when you made that announcement - that's the right way forward. wish you made that announcement you said this, "amid such tragedy the state has an obligation to examine its actions as rigorously and candidly as possible. " the number of deaths across the united kingdom calculated whether by registration on the death

certificate through covid, or the measure of excess deaths, is now over 230,000. measure of excess deaths, is now over230,000. by measure of excess deaths, is now over 230,000. by any measure, mr johnson, that is a shocking figure and a terrible loss of life. is that the tragedy to which you were referring when you said "in this tragedy the state has an obligation to examine its actions?" that tragedy the state has an obligation to examine its actions?"— to examine its actions?" that is certainly the — to examine its actions?" that is certainly the core _ to examine its actions?" that is certainly the core of _ to examine its actions?" that is certainly the core of the - to examine its actions?" that is. certainly the core of the tragedy, yes. do certainly the core of the tragedy, es. y ., certainly the core of the tragedy, es. , ., ., certainly the core of the tragedy, es. i. ., ., yes. do you agree that if the protection — yes. do you agree that if the protection of _ yes. do you agree that if the protection of life _ yes. do you agree that if the protection of life is - yes. do you agree that if the protection of life is the - protection of life is the pre—eminent duty that every government owes to its citizens than the number of those who died is an important, if not the most important marker against which your administration must be measured? i certainly think it was what we were trying to prevent, the loss of life, absolutely. trying to prevent, the loss of life, absolutely-—

absolutely. the virus left in its wake, of course, _ absolutely. the virus left in its wake, of course, not - absolutely. the virus left in its wake, of course, notjust - absolutely. the virus left in its| wake, of course, notjust death absolutely. the virus left in its - wake, of course, notjust death but injury and misery and indirectly through the knockdowns it left pain and incalculable economic and societal damage. where those and are those impacts which you also envisaged this inquiry would look at when you ordered its institution? {lit when you ordered its institution? of course. do when you ordered its institution? of course- do you _ when you ordered its institution? of course. do you accept, _ when you ordered its institution? of course. do you accept, and - when you ordered its institution? of course. do you accept, and we - when you ordered its institution? 0f| course. do you accept, and we make when you ordered its institution? of i course. do you accept, and we make i think, course. do you accept, and we make i think. presume _ course. do you accept, and we make i think, presume from _ course. do you accept, and we make i think, presume from your— course. do you accept, and we make i think, presume from your opening - think, presume from your opening remarks that you do, do you accept that the bereaved and those who suffered, of whom there are very many in numberare suffered, of whom there are very many in number are entitled to no less than an absolutely full and rigorous scrutiny? {lit less than an absolutely full and rigorous scrutiny?— less than an absolutely full and - rigorous scrutiny?_ when rigorous scrutiny? of course. when ou made rigorous scrutiny? of course. when you made that _ rigorous scrutiny? of course. when you made that announcement, - rigorous scrutiny? of course. when you made that announcement, he i rigorous scrutiny? of course. when i you made that announcement, he also said that this process will place the state's actions under the microscope and the government would be required to disclose all relevant information. in light of those words, could ijust ask you pleased

to confirm what your approach has been to the disclosure of your own covid related e—mails, what saps and notes? covid related e-mails, what saps and notes? �* ., , , , ., notes? i've done my best to give everything _ notes? i've done my best to give everything of _ notes? i've done my best to give everything of any _ notes? i've done my best to give everything of any conceivable - everything of any conceivable relevance. everything of any conceivable relevance-— everything of any conceivable relevance. ., ~ relevance. has your position, mr johnson? yes- — relevance. has your position, mr johnson? yes. and _ relevance. has your position, mr johnson? yes. and we _ relevance. has your position, mr johnson? yes. and we have - relevance. has your position, mr . johnson? yes. and we have 265619, .aet johnson? yes. and we have 265619, -a~e 68, johnson? yes. and we have 265619, page 68, please? —— could we have. this is a whatsapp between your former permanent secretary in number 10 and then latterly cabinet secretary and your principal private secretary and your principal private secretary simon case and respectively martin reynolds, and the cabinet secretary said the prime minister is mad if he doesn't think is what saps will become public via the covid inquiry. he was clearly not in the mood for that discussion tonight —— whatsapps. that date, 20th of december 2021, was just five

days after you had in fact appointed milady as the chair of this inquiry. was there a debate at that time within government as to whether or not your whatsapps should be disclosed, and if so whether or not they would be public by virtue of they would be public by virtue of the disclosure in this process? i don't remember that conversation to which the cabinet secretary is referring. and i've handed over all the relevant whatsapps. the inquiry has indeed requested _ the relevant whatsapps. the inquiry has indeed requested all— the relevant whatsapps. the inquiry has indeed requested all the - the relevant whatsapps. the inquiry has indeed requested all the key - has indeed requested all the key covid related texts, whatsapps and so on from january to february 2022, they must made absolutely clear that throughout the course of the litigation in the summer and throughout these proceedings you have made available it would seem everything in your possession. you made clear, i think, through your solicitor however, that you had a phone which you used from may 2021

and you have made available to whatsapps and e—mails from that phone, therefore, between may 21 and february 22, the period the inquiry was requesting about. but following a well—publicised security breach you had not been able to access the previous phone because you had stopped using it and you are fearful that if you tried to access it you would delete its data? is that right? would delete its data? is that riuht? . �* , would delete its data? is that right?_ were - would delete its data? is that right?_ were you | would delete its data? is that - right?_ were you able right? that's right. were you able to net right? that's right. were you able to get access _ right? that's right. were you able to get access to _ right? that's right. were you able to get access to the _ right? that's right. were you able to get access to the contents - right? that's right. were you able to get access to the contents of l to get access to the contents of that first phone, the old phone? yes, we sent it off to some tech technical people and they activated it. . ., , ., technical people and they activated it. . . , ., ., , technical people and they activated it. was there a time gap as your solicitor described _ it. was there a time gap as your solicitor described it, _ it. was there a time gap as your solicitor described it, on - it. was there a time gap as your solicitor described it, on that. solicitor described it, on that phonein solicitor described it, on that phone in a period between the 30th of january 2020 and june 2020 during which time the whatsapps have not

been capable of being... x�*feg. which time the whatsapps have not been capable of being. . ._ been capable of being... yes. reinstalled _ been capable of being... yes. reinstalled and _ been capable of being... yes. reinstalled and disclosed? - been capable of being... yes. | reinstalled and disclosed? that's riuht. do reinstalled and disclosed? that's right- do you _ reinstalled and disclosed? that's right. do you know _ reinstalled and disclosed? that's right. do you know why _ reinstalled and disclosed? that's right. do you know why your - reinstalled and disclosed? that's i right. do you know why your phone was missing _ right. do you know why your phone was missing those _ right. do you know why your phone was missing those 5000 _ right. do you know why your phone was missing those 5000 odd - was missing those 5000 odd whatsapps? i was missing those 5000 odd whatsapps?— was missing those 5000 odd whatsapps? was missing those 5000 odd whatsa s? ., �* ~ ., whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it _ whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it looks _ whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it looks as _ whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it looks as though - whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it looks as though it - whatsapps? i don't know the exact reason but it looks as though it is l reason but it looks as though it is something to do with the app going down and then coming up again. but somehow not... it automatically erasing all the things between that date when it went down and the moment when it was last backed up. so i can't give you the technical explanation but that's the best unable to give. the explanation but that's the best unable to give.— explanation but that's the best unable to cive. . unable to give. the technical report that our unable to give. the technical report that your solicitors _ unable to give. the technical report that your solicitors kindly _ unable to give. the technical report that your solicitors kindly provided l that your solicitors kindly provided demonstrates that there may have been a factory reset of the phone at

the end of january 2020 and then an attempt to reinstall the contents later in june attempt to reinstall the contents later injune 2020. may ijust ask you this? was it you make that was a factory reset that was done, was it you that tried to reset the phone or not? ah. you that tried to reset the phone or not? �* . . ., , you that tried to reset the phone or not? �* .,y , you that tried to reset the phone or not?_ there - you that tried to reset the phone or not?_ there is - you that tried to reset the phone or not?_ there is a - not? a factory reset? there is a device or _ not? a factory reset? there is a device or a _ not? a factory reset? there is a device or a capability _ not? a factory reset? there is a device or a capability on - not? a factory reset? there is a device or a capability on the - not? a factory reset? there is a i device or a capability on the phone which allows its contents to be entirely reset? i which allows its contents to be entirely reset?— which allows its contents to be entirel reset? ., �* , ., entirely reset? i don't believe that was me. entirely reset? i don't believe that was me- in — entirely reset? i don't believe that was me- in the — entirely reset? i don't believe that was me. in the course _ entirely reset? i don't believe that was me. in the course of- entirely reset? i don't believe that was me. in the course of the - entirely reset? i don't believe that. was me. in the course of the summer did ou was me. in the course of the summer did you make — was me. in the course of the summer did you make playing _ was me. in the course of the summer did you make playing your— was me. in the course of the summer did you make playing your stated - did you make playing your stated wish that the whatsapps that were the subject of that litigation should be disclosed, they being your own whatsapps? x�*feg. should be disclosed, they being your own whatsapps?— own whatsapps? yes. for the avoidance _ own whatsapps? yes. for the avoidance of _ own whatsapps? yes. for the avoidance of doubt, _ own whatsapps? yes. for the avoidance of doubt, can - own whatsapps? yes. for the avoidance of doubt, can makej own whatsapps? yes. for the i avoidance of doubt, can make it clear i haven't removed any whatsapps from my phone and i've given everything that i think you need to make i ask mrjohnson,

because this issue has been trailed in the press and it's important that you have an opportunity of explaining why those whatsapps are not available. in explaining why those whatsapps are not available-— not available. in your witness statement — not available. in your witness statement at _ not available. in your witness statement at paragraph - not available. in your witness statement at paragraph ten l not available. in your witness i statement at paragraph ten you not available. in your witness - statement at paragraph ten you say, mrjohnson, that unquestionably, mistakes were made. and for those you say you unreservedly apologise. we have the statement there. i'd like you, please, to set out in broad terms, of course we will look at the detail later, but in broad terms, what mistakes are you referred to there. bearing in mind we are only concerned in this module, mrjohnson, with the core decision—making with the lockdown decisions, the npis, political interventions and so on, not vaccines, therapeutics and anti—virals. what mistakes do you unquestionably accept were made? i think if you look at my statement, i point out that we were relying so

much on messaging to help contain the virus and we needed the public to understand the message in a straightforward away as possible. and they really did, by and large. one problem we had that i mention is that because of the very, you know, natural and proper right of the devolved administrations to have their own approach, sometimes there was a bit of... so the bbc news would have one message from number 10, then a slightly different one from scotland or wherever. i think that's why we need to sort that out in the future. i'm sure there are plenty of other things we could have done differently but i've no doubt we will come to them during the course of the examination. 50 we will come to them during the course of the examination. so your

osition course of the examination. so your position today _ course of the examination. so your position today is, _ course of the examination. so your position today is, and _ course of the examination. so your position today is, and you - course of the examination. so your position today is, and you appear l course of the examination. so your| position today is, and you appear to have referred to it as the first issue, that the primary mistake made rests in the context of the messaging and your communications with the devolved administrations? you asked me to cite a mistake that we made, i didn't say that was the primary mistake.— primary mistake. what primary mistakes. _ primary mistake. what primary mistakes, mr— primary mistake. what primary mistakes, mrjohnson, - primary mistake. what primary mistakes, mrjohnson, do - primary mistake. what primary mistakes, mrjohnson, do you | mistakes, mrjohnson, do you referred to in paragraph ten when you say there was terrible suffering, but in relation to which where we failed i apologise again. for what are you apologising in that statement? i for what are you apologising in that statement? .. . for what are you apologising in that statement? ~ , ., ., . ,, statement? i think, 'ust to go back to our statement? i think, 'ust to go back to your main h statement? i think, 'ust to go back to your main point, — statement? i think, just to go back to your main point, which - statement? i think, just to go back to your main point, which is - statement? i think, just to go back to your main point, which is that i statement? i think, just to go back| to your main point, which is that so many people suffered, so many people lost their lives, inevitably in the course of trying to handle a very, very difficult pandemic in which we had to balance appalling arms on either side of the decision, we may

have made mistakes. i don't want to try to anticipate the discussion which i'm sure we will get into about the timings of npis, lockdowns. inevitably we got some things wrong. i think we were doing our best at the time, given what we knew, given the information i had available to me at the time, i think we did our level best. where there are things that we should have done differently? unquestionably. buti would struggle to itemise them all before you now in a hierarchy, i'm afraid. i would find it easier to try and explain what happened as we

went through. you try and explain what happened as we went through-— went through. you say in your witness statement _ went through. you say in your witness statement "i - went through. you say in your - witness statement "i unquestionably made mistakes." can you draw a distinction for us, please, between yourself personally and for government? to what extent do you accept personal responsibility as opposed to accepting it on behalf of your administration? opposed to accepting it on behalf of youradministration? i opposed to accepting it on behalf of your administration?— opposed to accepting it on behalf of your administration? i take personal responsibility _ your administration? i take personal responsibility for _ your administration? i take personal responsibility for all _ your administration? i take personal responsibility for all the _ your administration? i take personal responsibility for all the decisions i responsibility for all the decisions that we made. it’s responsibility for all the decisions that we made.— that we made. it's obvious, mr johnson. _ that we made. it's obvious, mr johnson. that _ that we made. it's obvious, mr johnson, that many _ that we made. it's obvious, mr johnson, that many of- that we made. it's obvious, mr johnson, that many of the - that we made. it's obvious, mr| johnson, that many of the most difficult and momentous decisions rested upon your own shoulders as prime minister. do you take responsibility for whatever milady makes of the speed of the government's response injanuary, february, march of 2020? fif government's response in january, february, march of 2020? of course. and the way — february, march of 2020? of course. and the way in _ february, march of 2020? of course. and the way in which _ february, march of 2020? of course. and the way in which the _ february, march of 2020? of course. and the way in which the various - and the way in which the various moving parts of the government, the advisory committees, departments, agencies and so on responded? fif agencies and so on responded? of

course. agencies and so on responded? of course- do — agencies and so on responded? of course- do you _ agencies and so on responded? of course. do you take _ agencies and so on responded? of course. do you take responsibility| course. do you take responsibility for the lockdown _ course. do you take responsibility for the lockdown decisions, - course. do you take responsibility for the lockdown decisions, way i course. do you take responsibility i for the lockdown decisions, way they went, and their timeliness, whatever milady makes of them? fif went, and their timeliness, whatever milady makes of them?— went, and their timeliness, whatever i milady makes of them?_ the milady makes of them? of course. the manner in which _ milady makes of them? of course. the manner in which patients _ milady makes of them? of course. the manner in which patients were - manner in which patients were discharged from hospitals into the care sector? fif discharged from hospitals into the care sector?— discharged from hospitals into the care sector?_ the - care sector? of course. the exolosion — care sector? of course. the explosion of _ care sector? of course. the explosion of the _ care sector? of course. the explosion of the virus - care sector? of course. the| explosion of the virus within care sector? of course. the - explosion of the virus within the residential care sector? fif explosion of the virus within the residential care sector? of course. you make the _ residential care sector? of course. you make the general— residential care sector? of course. you make the general speed - residential care sector? of course. you make the general speed at i residential care sector? of course. i you make the general speed at which the restrictions were eased. yes. feet out to help out skin?- the restrictions were eased. yes. feet out to help out skin? yes. and latterl in feet out to help out skin? yes. and latterly in 2020 _ feet out to help out skin? yes. and latterly in 2020 the decision not to introduce a circuit breaker in september, october, orto introduce a tiered system earlier in the prevalence of the virus was lower for good or ill?— prevalence of the virus was lower for good or ill? yes. there we had local restrictions _ for good or ill? yes. there we had local restrictions from early - for good or ill? yes. there we had local restrictions from early on. i local restrictions from early on. may i just ask you this local restrictions from early on. may ijust ask you this question? also, you refer to mistakes, it is very important that the inquiry

understands to what extent it is accepted that there were mistakes as opposed to an acceptance that with hindsight the government could have done better. do you mean there were failings, things or decisions that you got unavoidably wrong, whether because they were the wrong decisions, or because your management and leadership meant that the right decisions were less likely to be taken, or do you mean with hindsight you just could have done better? hindsight you 'ust could have done better? . . . hindsight you 'ust could have done better? . , ., ., better? that is a sort of deterministic _ better? that is a sort of deterministic question, | better? that is a sort of - deterministic question, isn't it? it is an important one. i think - deterministic question, isn't it? it is an important one. i think the i is an important one. i think the answer is _ is an important one. i think the answer is that _ is an important one. i think the answer is that with _ is an important one. i think the answer is that with hindsight i is an important one. i think the answer is that with hindsight it| is an important one. i think the - answer is that with hindsight it may be easy to see things that we could have done differently, or it may be possible to see things that we could have done differently. at the time, i felt, have done differently. at the time, ifelt, and i know that everybody else felt that we were doing our best in very difficult circumstances to protect life and protect the nhs.

it is impossible, and arguably improper, to attribute any individual death causally to any particular governmental decision, and as i know you know, no possible purpose would be served in such an exercise. but do you accept that overall the government decision making, not the pandemic, but the government decision making in response led materially to there being a greater number of excess deaths in the united kingdom than might otherwise have been the case? i can't give you the answer to that question. i'm not sure. i notice that in your opening preamble a few months ago you produced a slide saying that the uk was, i think, second only to italy for excess

deaths. ., . second only to italy for excess deaths.- that's not. deaths. correct. that's not committed _ deaths. correct. that's not committed the _ deaths. correct. that's not committed the best - deaths. correct. that's not committed the best of- deaths. correct. that's not committed the best of my | deaths. correct. that's not _ committed the best of my knowledge, the case. or i would say as many other countries suffered terrible losses from covid.— other countries suffered terrible | losses from covid.- the losses from covid. they did. the evidence i _ losses from covid. they did. the evidence i have _ losses from covid. they did. the evidence i have seen _ losses from covid. they did. the evidence i have seen suggests i losses from covid. they did. the | evidence i have seen suggests we were well down at the european table and well down the well table, though thatis and well down the well table, though that is of course no comfort to bereaved their families. that seems to be for statistical reality. the evidence before _ to be for statistical reality. i“ie: evidence before milady to be for statistical reality. the evidence before milady is to be for statistical reality. t“i2 evidence before milady is that the united kingdom had one of the highest rates of excess deaths in europe. almost all other western european countries had a lower level of excess deaths. irlat european countries had a lower level of excess deaths.— of excess deaths. not what i've seen. of excess deaths. not what i've seen- italy _ of excess deaths. not what i've seen. italy was _ of excess deaths. not what i've seen. italy was tragically - of excess deaths. not what i've seen. italy was tragically in - of excess deaths. not what i've seen. italy was tragically in a i seen. italy was tragically in a worse position _ seen. italy was tragically in a worse position than - seen. italy was tragically in a worse position than the - seen. italy was tragically in a i worse position than the united kingdom. i worse position than the united kinudom. ., �* , worse position than the united kinadom. ., �* , ., ., . kingdom. i don't wish to contradict ou, kingdom. i don't wish to contradict you. mr keith. _ kingdom. i don't wish to contradict you, mr keith, but—

kingdom. i don't wish to contradict you, mr keith, but the _ kingdom. i don't wish to contradict you, mr keith, but the evidence, i kingdom. i don't wish to contradict i you, mr keith, but the evidence, the 0ns you, mr keith, but the evidence, the ons data i saw put us about 16th or 19th in a table of 33. in ons data i saw put us about 16th or 19th in a table of 33.— 19th in a table of 33. in western euro -e 19th in a table of 33. in western europe we _ 19th in a table of 33. in western europe we were _ 19th in a table of 33. in western europe we were one _ 19th in a table of 33. in western europe we were one of- 19th in a table of 33. in western europe we were one of the - 19th in a table of 33. in western| europe we were one of the worst 19th in a table of 33. in western - europe we were one of the worst off, if not the second worst off. you must have long reflected since that time why that was so. why do you think that we had the rate of excess deaths in this country that we did ultimately have? this i deaths in this country that we did ultimately have?— ultimately have? as i say, i think that the statistics _ ultimately have? as i say, i think that the statistics vary _ ultimately have? as i say, i think that the statistics vary and - ultimately have? as i say, i think that the statistics vary and i - ultimately have? as i say, i thinkj that the statistics vary and i think that the statistics vary and i think that every country struggled with a new pandemic. and i think the uk, from the evidence that i have seen, was well down the european table and obviously even further down the world table. if i had to answer why i think we faced particular headwinds, i would say it was, irrespective of government action,

we have an elderly population, extremely elderly population, we do suffer sadly from lots of covid related comorbidities and we are a very densely possibly to country, the second most densely a belated country in europe and that did not help —— densely populated country. that did not help. do help -- densely populated country. that did not help.— that did not help. do you accept that government _ that did not help. do you accept that government actions - that did not help. do you accept i that government actions materially contributed to that outcome? it wasn'tjust contributed to that outcome? it wasn't just a contributed to that outcome? it wasn'tjust a matter of contributed to that outcome? it wasn't just a matter of the state contributed to that outcome? it wasn'tjust a matter of the state of the health care system, density, age of population and in fact the geographical location of the united kingdom? geographical location of the united kinadom? . geographical location of the united kinadom? , ., ., _, , kingdom? given that other countries have excellent _ kingdom? given that other countries have excellent health _ kingdom? given that other countries have excellent health care _ kingdom? given that other countries have excellent health care systems i have excellent health care systems and face similar problems and ended up and face similar problems and ended up in statistically with more excess deaths per 100,000, the answer is i don't know. i don't know. you

deaths per100,000, the answer is i don't know. i don't know.— don't know. i don't know. you are obviously — don't know. i don't know. you are obviously extremely _ don't know. i don't know. you are obviously extremely well - don't know. i don't know. you are obviously extremely well aware i don't know. i don't know. you are| obviously extremely well aware of the argument that the lockdown decisions themselves cumulatively and individually contributed to the number of excess deaths. what do you say to that? i number of excess deaths. what do you sa to that? ,., , number of excess deaths. what do you sa to that? ,. , ., number of excess deaths. what do you sa to that? h, ., ., �* say to that? i say that i don't know. say to that? i say that i don't know- but — say to that? i say that i don't know. but i'm _ say to that? i say that i don't know. but i'm aware - say to that? i say that i don't know. but i'm aware of- say to that? i say that i don't know. but i'm aware of the l say to that? i say that i don't - know. but i'm aware of the arguments that are made. what i would say respectfully to people is that they were very, very difficult decisions. the issue of the timeliness of lockdowns was clearly one that we considered very hard at the time. and you will have seen from the evidence that there were strong arguments against going to early

into lockdowns, especially when it came to that first series of march npis. came to that first series of march npis. you will remember the arguments that were made, two arguments, against early action, and they were the risk of behavioural fatigue and then the risk of bounce back, or what you have called the spring. they were made powerfully and they certainly had a big effect on me. ., y ., and they certainly had a big effect onme. ., , on me. could you assist the inquiry with something _ on me. could you assist the inquiry with something about _ on me. could you assist the inquiry with something about the - on me. could you assist the inquiry with something about the nature i with something about the nature of the heavy responsibility which rested on your shoulders? it is perhaps self—evident that only the most difficult and momentous decisions come from the prime minister. . �* . decisions come from the prime minister. . �* , . decisions come from the prime minister._ were l decisions come from the prime - minister._ were there minister. that's correct. were there an aood minister. that's correct. were there any good or — minister. that's correct. were there any good or easy — minister. that's correct. were there any good or easy decisions - minister. that's correct. were there any good or easy decisions to - minister. that's correct. were there any good or easy decisions to be i any good or easy decisions to be made in this context? ila. any good or easy decisions to be made in this context?— any good or easy decisions to be made in this context? no. i can't think of a —

made in this context? no. i can't think of a single... _ made in this context? no. i can't think of a single... well, - made in this context? no. i can't think of a single. .. well, i - made in this context? no. i can't i think of a single... well, i suppose it was an easy decision to say that we should go ahead with the roll—out of both pfizer and astrazeneca as soon as they had been approved by the mhra. but when it came to... excuse me, mr keith. but when it came to the balance of the need to protect the public and protect the nhs and the damage done by lockdowns, it was incredibly difficult. . . lockdowns, it was incredibly difficult. . , , ., difficult. pause, please. ido understand _ difficult. pause, please. ido understand emotions - difficult. pause, please. ido understand emotions are i difficult. pause, please. i do- understand emotions are running very high, _ understand emotions are running very high, i— understand emotions are running very high, i do. _ understand emotions are running very high, i do. i_ understand emotions are running very high, ldo. ithink— understand emotions are running very high, ido, ithink is— understand emotions are running very high, i do, i think is most— high, i do, i think is most unfortunate _ high, i do, i think is most unfortunate when- high, i do, i think is most unfortunate when i- high, i do, i think is most unfortunate when i have i high, i do, i think is most. unfortunate when i have to high, i do, i think is most- unfortunate when i have to ask people — unfortunate when i have to ask people to — unfortunate when i have to ask people to leave _ unfortunate when i have to ask people to leave but _ unfortunate when i have to ask people to leave but we - unfortunate when i have to ask people to leave but we have i unfortunate when i have to ask people to leave but we have toj people to leave but we have to ensure — people to leave but we have to ensure that _ people to leave but we have to ensure that this _ people to leave but we have to ensure that this hearing - people to leave but we have to ensure that this hearing is - ensure that this hearing is effective _ ensure that this hearing is effective and _ ensure that this hearing is effective and it's - ensure that this hearing is effective and it's got - ensure that this hearing is effective and it's got to i ensure that this hearing is effective and it's got to be effective _ effective and it's got to be effective not _ effective and it's got to be effective not just - effective and it's got to be effective not just for - effective and it's got to be. effective not just for people effective and it's got to be - effective notjust for people in effective and it's got to be - effective not just for people in the hearing _ effective not just for people in the hearing room _ effective not just for people in the hearing room but— effective not just for people in the hearing room but for— effective not just for people in the hearing room but for people - effective not just for people in the . hearing room but for people watching on the _ hearing room but for people watching on the online — hearing room but for people watching on the online streaming. _ hearing room but for people watching on the online streaming. so, - hearing room but for people watching on the online streaming. so, please, | on the online streaming. so, please,

make _ on the online streaming. so, please, make sure _ on the online streaming. so, please, make sure your— on the online streaming. so, please, make sure your behaviour _ on the online streaming. so, please, make sure your behaviour is - make sure your behaviour is appropriate _ make sure your behaviour is appropriate to _ make sure your behaviour is appropriate to a _ make sure your behaviour is appropriate to a public- make sure your behaviour is i appropriate to a public hearing make sure your behaviour is - appropriate to a public hearing of a statutory _ appropriate to a public hearing of a statutory inquiry. _ appropriate to a public hearing of a statutory inquiry. thank— appropriate to a public hearing of a statutory inquiry. thank you. - appropriate to a public hearing of a statutory inquiry. thank you. sorry| statutory inquiry. thank you. sorry to interrupt — statutory inquiry. thank you. sorry to interrupt-— statutory inquiry. thank you. sorry to interrupt._ we - statutory inquiry. thank you. sorry to interrupt._ we willl to interrupt. no, it's fine. we will look at the _ to interrupt. no, it's fine. we will look at the nature _ to interrupt. no, it's fine. we will look at the nature of _ to interrupt. no, it's fine. we will look at the nature of the - to interrupt. no, it's fine. we will| look at the nature of the particular decisions in greater detail later. but, broadly speaking, so that we know the light of the land and we know the light of the land and we know how you approach these issues, where the majority of the most momentous decisions, decisions, for example, to impose the lockdowns and social distancing and so on, where they decisions that work in practice made by you even if they were affirmed or endorsed by the cabinet later, orwhere affirmed or endorsed by the cabinet later, or where they decisions that were entirely open and deeply made by cabinet? it were entirely open and deeply made b cabinet? ., , ,., , ., ., by cabinet? it was both. they had to be taken so — by cabinet? it was both. they had to be taken so fast, _ by cabinet? it was both. they had to be taken so fast, they _ by cabinet? it was both. they had to be taken so fast, they were - be taken so fast, they were funnelled up to me. directly but there were also a large number of decisions, i do think this hasn't come out as much as it should, but

on the subject of exhaustive —— they were the