and did a very, very good job of working — and did a very, very good job of working with the da is. that didn't stop some — working with the da is. that didn't stop some of the ruggedness that i have talked about. if i had my time again. _ have talked about. if i had my time again. with — have talked about. if i had my time again, with hindsight, i think it is an area _ again, with hindsight, i think it is an area where i would have tried, even _ an area where i would have tried, even though i was very pushed for time, _ even though i was very pushed for time, i'd _ even though i was very pushed for time, i'd have tried to spend more time _ time, i'd have tried to spend more time with— time, i'd have tried to spend more time with the das and really try to bring _ time with the das and really try to bring them with me, but i'm afraid it may— bring them with me, but i'm afraid it mayiust— bring them with me, but i'm afraid it mayjust be that i am over estimating my ability to get a consensus. there was always the risk of diversions — consensus. there was always the risk of diversions-— of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- — of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- misrepresenting - of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- misrepresenting your. be missed —— misrepresenting your true views, you said it was optically wrong for the united kingdom prime minister to hold regular meetings with the other da first ministers. i regular meetings with the other da first ministers.— first ministers. i happen to think that is also _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. they _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. they can't - first ministers. i happen to thinki that is also true. they can't both be riuht.

that is also true. they can't both be right. well. _ that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes - that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes you l that is also true. they can't both l be right. well, sometimes you can that is also true. they can't both - be right. well, sometimes you can do thins be right. well, sometimes you can do thin . s that be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you _ be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you think _ be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you think are _ things that you think are constitutionally a bit weird. if it will help— constitutionally a bit weird. if it will help the general because of fighting — will help the general because of fighting the pandemic. let me summarise, i think there is an issue — summarise, i think there is an issue it — summarise, i think there is an issue it is _ summarise, i think there is an issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as— issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big — issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big as— issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big as the other issues that the inquiry— not as big as the other issues that the inquiry needs to look at but we need _ the inquiry needs to look at but we need to— the inquiry needs to look at but we need to sort it out, we need a better— need to sort it out, we need a better way— need to sort it out, we need a better way to get a unified message for the _ better way to get a unified message for the uk — better way to get a unified message for the uk. mr better way to get a unified message for the uk. ~ g ., better way to get a unified message forthe uk. ~ g. i. better way to get a unified message forthe uk. ~ �* for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't t ve for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard. _ for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard. to — for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use _ for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use your- for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use your words, i for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't. try very hard, to use your words, to bring the das with you, because you took the view that, optically, it was wrong to be seen to be meeting with their first ministers because

it might look like, to use your words, a mini eu. you ask the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster michael gove to chair the meetings instead and you made it quite clear to the first ministers of the devolved administrations that you had taken the view that they were prone to leaking from the cobra meetings and also prone to taking decisions in this public health crisis for nakedly political reasons. crisis for nakedly political reasuns-_ crisis for nakedly political reasons. �* ., . ., ., reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in — reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so _ reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many _ reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many words, - reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many words, maybe | reasons. i'm not certain i said that - to them in so many words, maybe you have some _ to them in so many words, maybe you have some evidence that i did. i certainly— have some evidence that i did. i certainly thought that was a risk, and from — certainly thought that was a risk, and from time to time i felt that the coherence of the uk message was bein- the coherence of the uk message was being undermined and there has to be a way— being undermined and there has to be a way to— being undermined and there has to be a way to fix— being undermined and there has to be a way to fix it. i thought michael

huht _ a way to fix it. i thought michael huht did — a way to fix it. i thought michael hunt did an excellentjob. i sometimes wonder whether i could have done — sometimes wonder whether i could have done more in that respect myself— have done more in that respect myself but, frankly, i doubt it. there — myself but, frankly, i doubt it. there were obviously divergences of approach with regard to the substantive responses, tiers, fire breakers, circuit breakers, what was donein breakers, circuit breakers, what was done in relation to schools and so on. and also public communications, the messaging across the united kingdom was not always pointing in the same direction. ultimately, did it matter that there were those differences of approach, epidemiologically, or in terms of communication we were not all singing from the same hymn sheet? i singing from the same hymn sheet? i think it did matter, i think clarity and unity— think it did matter, i think clarity and unity of message was very important. and unity of message was very important-— and unity of message was very imortant. ., , ., , important. dato, plainly the united

kinudom important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government _ important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government was, - important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government was, where i important. dato, plainly the united| kingdom government was, where it could, taking decisions in relation to what should be happening in each of the four nations of the united kingdom —— das, plainly. not in public health terms but trying to apply an ally turned unanimous approach. did you feel that you as the prime minister of the united kingdom government had sufficient data, sufficient scientific advice, as to the position on the ground in each of the other nations, epidemiologically? i each of the other nations, epidemiologically?- each of the other nations, epidemiologically? each of the other nations, eidemiolouicall ? ~ ., epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic— epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke _ epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, _ epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we - epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we did - epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we did not| the pandemic broke out, we did not even _ the pandemic broke out, we did not even know. — the pandemic broke out, we did not even know. i— the pandemic broke out, we did not even know, i think i said, the number— even know, i think i said, the number of— even know, i think i said, the number of beds in the nhs and it tooka— number of beds in the nhs and it took a long time to distract relevant _ took a long time to distract relevant data.— took a long time to distract relevant data. . , ., ., relevant data. there was a general continuin: relevant data. there was a general continuing concern _ relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised - relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised with - relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised with you | continuing concern raised with you because mr chen wrote to you in

september 2020 —— because nicola sturgeon wrote to you in september 2020 about whether the devolved administrations were receiving another financial —— enough financial support, because they do not have access to the same levers physical power as the uk government. how was that result, or did it continue throughout the crisis? the issue of financial support was obviously allied with the issue of divergences of approach. clearly if it was— divergences of approach. clearly if it was open to a da to take, for instance. — it was open to a da to take, for instance. a _ it was open to a da to take, for instance, a much more precautionary approach _ instance, a much more precautionary approach or— instance, a much more precautionary approach or say they wanted to do xyz policy— approach or say they wanted to do xyz policy that would be more expensive, then that was something

that the _ expensive, then that was something that the whole of the uk exchequer was going _ that the whole of the uk exchequer was going to have to cover. now, it was going to have to cover. now, it was hot _ was going to have to cover. now, it was hot that— was going to have to cover. now, it was not that i wanted unity of message _ was not that i wanted unity of message for that reason, but that was certainly an extra complication. in was certainly an extra complication. in his _ was certainly an extra complication. in his statement, michael gove says in the early stages of the response there were times when insufficient notice was given to the devolved administrations of decisions to be taken, and ms sturgeon said in her witness statement, i believe that communication should have been better and more importantly that devolved administration should have been integral to decision—making. would you accept, perhaps with hindsight, that the decision—making process was not as good as it might have been?—

process was not as good as it might have been? ., ., ., have been? some form of integrated decision-making _ have been? some form of integrated decision-making but _ have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't - have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't leak - have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't leak is l decision—making but doesn't leak is what you _ decision—making but doesn't leak is what you are after, i think. local government. _ what you are after, i think. local government, it _ what you are after, i think. local government, it would _ what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem - what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem that| what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem that in march 2020 there was a deliberate decision in downing street not to invite the mayor of london to meetings until the 16th of march. he says he made repeated requests to attend, he requested to attend cobra on the second, ninth and 12th of march but was not permitted to do so. did you know that and do you agree with that?— so. did you know that and do you agree with that? certainly london was ve , agree with that? certainly london was very. very — agree with that? certainly london was very, very much _ agree with that? certainly london was very, very much at _ agree with that? certainly london was very, very much at the - agree with that? certainly london i was very, very much at the forefront in the _ was very, very much at the forefront in the early— was very, very much at the forefront in the early stages of the pandemic, i in the early stages of the pandemic, i know— in the early stages of the pandemic, i know the _ in the early stages of the pandemic, i know the mayor of london was repeatedly consulted by advisers in number— repeatedly consulted by advisers in number ten. repeatedly consulted by advisers in numberten. there repeatedly consulted by advisers in number ten. there was a lot of traffic— number ten. there was a lot of traffic between them and sadiq khan.

i traffic between them and sadiq khan. ithink. _ traffic between them and sadiq khan. i think, from traffic between them and sadiq khan. ithink, from memory, he was traffic between them and sadiq khan. i think, from memory, he was invited to a meeting — i think, from memory, he was invited to a meeting on the 16th, but i certainly— to a meeting on the 16th, but i certainly spoke with him pretty early _ certainly spoke with him pretty early on. — certainly spoke with him pretty early on, but right at the end of the last— early on, but right at the end of the last session, as you said then, we thought— the last session, as you said then, we thought we might begin with london — we thought we might begin with london first but we dropped that. the mayor— london first but we dropped that. the mayor of london was not invited to the government's formal crisis machinery, cobra, after the first national measures had been imposed, is that right?— is that right? because in the end we did not do london _ is that right? because in the end we did not do london first _ is that right? because in the end we did not do london first measures, . did not do london first measures, and there — did not do london first measures, and there was some sensitivity about other— and there was some sensitivity about other metro mayors. | and there was some sensitivity about other metro mayors.— other metro mayors. i think it relation to — other metro mayors. i think it relation to the _ other metro mayors. i think it relation to the metro - other metro mayors. i think iti relation to the metro mayors, other metro mayors. i think it - relation to the metro mayors, save on one occasion, october 12, when the mayor of liverpool, and you rather run, attended, no metro mayor

was invited to attend cobra at any time. —— the mayor of liverpool, andy rotherham. the evidence from sadiq khan, andy burnham and andy rotherham was insufficient information is generally given to local leaders. and in the context of the local restrictions in the summer of 2020 and of course the tier system in october and december of 2020, that was a very significant feeling, was it not?— feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to andy _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to andy rotherham, i feeling, was it not? first of all, i- am grateful to andy rotherham, andy burnham, _ am grateful to andy rotherham, andy burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors— burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors for— burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors for the work that they did and the _ mayors for the work that they did and the leadership they gave to their— and the leadership they gave to their own — and the leadership they gave to their own communities. you talk about— their own communities. you talk about andy—

their own communities. you talk about andy burnham, several parts of the country _ about andy burnham, several parts of the country barely came out of measures— the country barely came out of measures for the whole of the year. manchester. measures for the whole of the year. manchester-— manchester. exactly. they had a ve , manchester. exactly. they had a very. very _ manchester. exactly. they had a very. very tough _ manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. _ manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. we - manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. we did i manchester. exactly. they had a. very, very tough time. we did our best— very, very tough time. we did our best to _ very, very tough time. we did our best to offer support and engage with them and help, but some of the negotiations, as i am sure we will come _ negotiations, as i am sure we will come to, — negotiations, as i am sure we will come to, were extremely difficult. one of— come to, were extremely difficult. one of sir— come to, were extremely difficult. one of sir patrick vallance's entries appears to suggest that in relation to manchester and mr burnham, a covid meeting at which you were present openly drew a distinction between the support and measures that would be given to manchester as opposed to liverpool

for nakedly political reasons. would you agree? did that happen? i am for nakedly political reasons. would you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there — you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is _ you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is a _ you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is a conservative - certain there is a conservative mayor — certain there is a conservative mayor of _ certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool. a certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool.— certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool. a view was taken u on the mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature _ mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of— mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of the _ mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of the local - upon the nature of the local leadership in manchester and davy was taken about how cooperative... oh, i see. was taken about how cooperative... oh, isee. therefore was taken about how cooperative... oh, i see. therefore manchester would be treated differently to liverpool. i would be treated differently to liverool. ., �* , ., ., liverpool. i don't remember that at all. i liverpool. i don't remember that at all- i think — liverpool. i don't remember that at all. ithinkthat_ liverpool. i don't remember that at all. i think that liverpool _ all. i think that liverpool certainly was... the people of liverpool— certainly was... the people of liverpool were heroic in trying to -et liverpool were heroic in trying to get mass — liverpool were heroic in trying to get mass testing going and, again, there _ get mass testing going and, again, there was— get mass testing going and, again, there was a — get mass testing going and, again, there was a true hardship because of there was a true hardship because of the lockdowns but they were vital to the lockdowns but they were vital to the campaign to get mass testing going _ the campaign to get mass testing anoin. . ., the campaign to get mass testing aoian.�* ., , ., the campaign to get mass testing aoain.�* ., , ., ,, going. another separate issue, . lease, going. another separate issue, please. the _ going. another separate issue, please, the consideration - going. another separate issue, please, the consideration of. please, the consideration of vulnerable and at—risk groups and you will appreciate that on account

of your position as prime minister, many of these issues would only perhaps fittingly have come to your attention and only at the highest possible level, therefore there is a distinct restriction on the detail into which we can go in debating them. helen macnamara, in her statement, makes this general point, that of course the advice and discussions and cabinet office in the heart of government there was a striking absence of humanity or perspective about how people or families actually lived —— that a cross at the advice and discussions. her sense was that the group of people in your inner coterie and the cabinet most homogenous group of people and were taking decisions that probably called for a much broader representation across society. would you agree with a general proposition? i society. would you agree with a general proposition?— society. would you agree with a general proposition? i think there is some force _

general proposition? i think there is some force in _ general proposition? i think there is some force in that. _ general proposition? i think there is some force in that. some - general proposition? i think there is some force in that. some force | general proposition? i think there l is some force in that. some force in the description of the people in and around _ the description of the people in and around those meetings at some of those _ around those meetings at some of those key— around those meetings at some of those key times. i do not accept what _ those key times. i do not accept what helen says about the measures we took, _ what helen says about the measures we took, she said some things, i pay tribute _ we took, she said some things, i pay tribute to— we took, she said some things, i pay tribute to helen, she did an amazing 'ob, tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but— tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but i_ tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but i think it is not right or fair to— job, but i think it is not right or fair to say— job, but i think it is not right or fair to say that policy was conceived and driven forward without regard _ conceived and driven forward without regard to _ conceived and driven forward without regard to the particular needs of women, — regard to the particular needs of women, for instance, the huge amount of thought— women, for instance, the huge amount of thought went into the question of hidden _ of thought went into the question of hidden harms and domestic violence. there _ hidden harms and domestic violence. there was— hidden harms and domestic violence. there was the access to abortion, to drugs _ there was the access to abortion, to drugs necessary, we put money... we

had a _ drugs necessary, we put money... we had a domestic violence bill, as you might— had a domestic violence bill, as you might remember in march 2020, which .oes might remember in march 2020, which goes through the comments very fast, we put _ goes through the comments very fast, we put money into it, we set up a helpline. — we put money into it, we set up a helpline. we _ we put money into it, we set up a helpline, we have systems whereby victims _ helpline, we have systems whereby victims of— helpline, we have systems whereby victims of domestic violence can identify— victims of domestic violence can identify themselves without risk of exposure — identify themselves without risk of exposure by going to certain premises. we were very, very alive and i_ premises. we were very, very alive and i was _ premises. we were very, very alive and i was personally very alive to this issue — and i was personally very alive to this issue i— and i was personally very alive to this issue. i was surprised when she said that _ this issue. i was surprised when she said that i— this issue. i was surprised when she said that. i know how much she cared about— said that. i know how much she cared about it _ said that. i know how much she cared about it i_ said that. i know how much she cared about it. i believe we did a lot on that _ about it. i believe we did a lot on that on — about it. i believe we did a lot on that on the _ about it. i believe we did a lot on that. on the broader question about — that. on the broader question about... leaving aside the issue of gender. _ about... leaving aside the issue of gender. i_ about... leaving aside the issue of gender, i think... about... leaving aside the issue of gender, ithink... this about... leaving aside the issue of gender, i think... this needs flipping — gender, i think... this needs flipping the other way round now, i think— flipping the other way round now, i think sometimes we didn't think hard

enough _ think sometimes we didn't think hard enough about the impact of lockdown on different groups, and sometimes, frankly. _ on different groups, and sometimes, frankly. it _ on different groups, and sometimes, frankly, it was much easier for people — frankly, it was much easier for people with professionaljobs to sit out the _ people with professionaljobs to sit out the lockdown than it was for others — out the lockdown than it was for others. whether they were in the hospitality sector or whatever. a lot of _ hospitality sector or whatever. a lot of people who were on lower incomes— lot of people who were on lower incomes really had a pretty tough time of— incomes really had a pretty tough time of it — incomes really had a pretty tough time of it i— incomes really had a pretty tough time of it. i think that it was vital— time of it. i think that it was vital to— time of it. i think that it was vital to focus on those people and to do— vital to focus on those people and to do everything we could to help them _ to do everything we could to help them through lockdown, but also to realise _ them through lockdown, but also to realise that lockdown was hitting those _ realise that lockdown was hitting those groups particularly hard, and for me _ those groups particularly hard, and for me that — those groups particularly hard, and for me that was a reason why you

have _ for me that was a reason why you have to _ for me that was a reason why you have to be — for me that was a reason why you have to be so careful about going back into — have to be so careful about going back into a — have to be so careful about going back into a national lockdown in october. — back into a national lockdown in october, november. gr back into a national lockdown in october, november. or september. it is necessary — october, november. or september. it is necessary to — october, november. or september. it is necessary to distinguish _ october, november. or september. it is necessary to distinguish the - is necessary to distinguish the first lockdown on the second lockdown. the lady asked you earlier to what extent you consider the economic arguments against lockdown and you said you had to give them short shrift. on the speed at which the government had to act in that week in march, can we assume relatively little consideration was given to the government —— by the government on the impact of the lockdown? i government on the impact of the lockdown? ~ government on the impact of the lockdown? ,, ., government on the impact of the lockdown? ,, . ., ., ., lockdown? i think a huge amount of consideration _ lockdown? i think a huge amount of consideration was _ lockdown? i think a huge amount of consideration was given _ lockdown? i think a huge amount of consideration was given to - lockdown? i think a huge amount of consideration was given to the - consideration was given to the impact — consideration was given to the impact of— consideration was given to the impact of both lockdowns. not the eaneral impact of both lockdowns. not the general impact. — impact of both lockdowns. not the general impact, mr— impact of both lockdowns. not the general impact, mrjohnson, - impact of both lockdowns. not the general impact, mrjohnson, by i general impact, mrjohnson, by reference to your earlier answer, the needs of individuals, groups for example but by no means limited to

bame factors, for example. it was not at the forefront of government consideration that we? bath consideration that we? both lockdowns _ consideration that we? both lockdowns were _ consideration that we? both lockdowns were at - consideration that we? both lockdowns were at the - consideration that we? both lockdowns were at the forefront of our consideration in their diverse impact. — our consideration in their diverse impact. but _ our consideration in their diverse impact, but also covid was a subject of consideration, because of what appeared — of consideration, because of what appeared to be its diverse impact and. _ appeared to be its diverse impact and. as— appeared to be its diverse impact and. as i'm— appeared to be its diverse impact and, as i'm sure you know, we commissioned a lot of work into the way covid _ commissioned a lot of work into the way covid seemed at first to be striking — way covid seemed at first to be striking particular communities harder — striking particular communities harder. . ., ., , harder. that was not apparent until a-ril. at harder. that was not apparent until april- at the _ harder. that was not apparent until april. at the 16th _ harder. that was not apparent until april. at the 16th and _ harder. that was not apparent until april. at the 16th and 23rd - harder. that was not apparent until april. at the 16th and 23rd of - harder. that was not apparent until| april. at the 16th and 23rd of march there was great consideration given, of course, to shielding and clinical impact, but relatively little if any consideration to social impact, upon the disproportionate way in which a national lockdown might impact upon

various sectors in society. that is correct, isn't it? where in the notes all the minutes you have been shown is that open debate about the likely impact on the vulnerable and at—risk of the national lockdown imposed on the 23rd of march? i imposed on the 23rd of march? i couldn't point you off the top of my head to _ couldn't point you off the top of my head to any— couldn't point you off the top of my head to any particular text, but i can tell— head to any particular text, but i can tell you _ head to any particular text, but i can tell you that the whole time we were thinking, look, who gets hit when _ were thinking, look, who gets hit when you — were thinking, look, who gets hit when you close nonessential retail and you _ when you close nonessential retail and you close hospitality, and you stop people moving around? the relatively— stop people moving around? the relatively affluent professional classes — relatively affluent professional classes are probably going to be better— classes are probably going to be better placed to cope with this than others _ better placed to cope with this than others you — better placed to cope with this than others. you will find that there are

large _ others. you will find that there are large numbers of black and minority ethnic— large numbers of black and minority ethnic community members represented in those _ ethnic community members represented in those sectors who were particularly disadvantaged by the lockdowns. . particularly disadvantaged by the lockdowns. yes. whether or not you can find any — lockdowns. jazz whether or not you can find any mention of lockdowns. 193 whether or not you can find any mention of this in the material— can find any mention of this in the material you have looked at, i know this was— material you have looked at, i know this was one — material you have looked at, i know this was one thing we were thinking about— this was one thing we were thinking about as _ this was one thing we were thinking about as a — this was one thing we were thinking about as a particular reason for being _ about as a particular reason for being anxious about the effect of lockdowns. . . being anxious about the effect of lockdowns. ., , ., being anxious about the effect of lockdowns-— lockdowns. there was a general consideration _ lockdowns. there was a general consideration at _ lockdowns. there was a general consideration at a _ lockdowns. there was a general consideration at a generic - lockdowns. there was a general consideration at a generic level| lockdowns. there was a general i consideration at a generic level of the impact of lockdown, there was a clinical and financial consideration of those who needed to shield. there was a broad understanding that if the r rates could be brought below one it would benefit all, but it was not until april on the first few

weeks of may that the information started to come to light that members of the black and minority ethnic community were suffering more, the lockdown was having a greater and disproportionate impact on them. correct? i greater and disproportionate impact on them. correct?— greater and disproportionate impact on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when — on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it _ on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it came _ on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it came to _ on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it came to light - on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it came to light but - on them. correct? i don't remember exactly when it came to light but it l exactly when it came to light but it was intuitively obvious it was going to happen — was intuitively obvious it was going to happen and one of the reasons why i to happen and one of the reasons why i was _ to happen and one of the reasons why i was very— to happen and one of the reasons why i was very cautious about going back into a _ i was very cautious about going back into a national lockdown. that i was very cautious about going back into a national lockdown.— into a national lockdown. that is later, of course. _ into a national lockdown. that is later, of course. it _ into a national lockdown. that is later, of course. it was - into a national lockdown. that is later, of course. it was one - into a national lockdown. that is later, of course. it was one of. into a national lockdown. that is. later, of course. it was one of the reasons why _ later, of course. it was one of the reasons why i _ later, of course. it was one of the reasons why i was _ later, of course. it was one of the reasons why i was keen _ later, of course. it was one of the reasons why i was keen to - later, of course. it was one of the reasons why i was keen to see - later, of course. it was one of the - reasons why i was keen to see people -et reasons why i was keen to see people get moving _ reasons why i was keen to see people get moving again. and reasons why i was keen to see people get moving again-— get moving again. and you instituted a review, get moving again. and you instituted a review. we — get moving again. and you instituted a review, we have _ get moving again. and you instituted a review, we have had _ get moving again. and you instituted a review, we have had evidence - get moving again. and you instituted a review, we have had evidence that| a review, we have had evidence that kemi badenoch and he carried out a very extensive review over a number of years, two years —— that kemi badenoch mp carried out. you were, i think, less sympathetic to the needs of those persons suffering from the

condition known as long covid. you question for quite some time whether or not that condition truly existed and equated it to gulf war syndrome repeatedly. was that fair? irlat repeatedly. was that fair? not reall , repeatedly. was that fair? not really. no- _ repeatedly. was that fair? not really, no. can _ repeatedly. was that fair? not really, no. can i _ repeatedly. was that fair? not really, no. can i come back on that and say. _ really, no. can i come back on that and say. first— really, no. can i come back on that and say, first of all, the words that— and say, first of all, the words that i— and say, first of all, the words that i scribbled in the margins of submissions about long covid, they have obviously not been publicised and i'm _ have obviously not been publicised and i'm sure they have caused hurt and i'm sure they have caused hurt and offence — and i'm sure they have caused hurt and offence to huge numbers of people — and offence to huge numbers of people who indeed suffer from that syndrome. i regret very much using that language and i should have thought— that language and i should have thought about the possibility of future —

thought about the possibility of future publication. i regret it very. — future publication. i regret it very. very— future publication. i regret it very, very much. what i was trying to do— very, very much. what i was trying to do was— very, very much. what i was trying to do was get to the heart and the truth _ to do was get to the heart and the truth of— to do was get to the heart and the truth of the matter and try to get my officials to explain to me exactly — my officials to explain to me exactly what the syndrome was. it actually _ exactly what the syndrome was. it actually took quite a long time before — actually took quite a long time before i— actually took quite a long time before i got a proper paper on it. i think— before i got a proper paper on it. i think it _ before i got a proper paper on it. i think it was — before i got a proper paper on it. i think it was not until... i will get this wrong — think it was not until... i will get this wrong but i think it was not until— this wrong but i think it was not until the — this wrong but i think it was not until the summer of 2021 before i actually— until the summer of 2021 before i actually got a paper on covid, but i asked _ actually got a paper on covid, but i asked repeatedly to get some information. that was so i could explain — information. that was so i could explain to— information. that was so i could explain to people what we were doing and what _ explain to people what we were doing and what the issue was. mr explain to people what we were doing and what the issue was.— and what the issue was. mrjohnson, the aoint and what the issue was. mrjohnson, the point is — and what the issue was. mrjohnson, the point is that _ and what the issue was. mrjohnson,

the point is that in _ and what the issue was. mrjohnson, the point is that in october— and what the issue was. mrjohnson, the point is that in october 2020 - the point is that in october 2020 you scribbled these remarks on a report to you about the funding from the nihr into the long covid survey. you continue to make disparaging references to whether or not this was gulf war syndrome stuff in february 21, in the context of an update given to you on the 21st of february, and still later injune 21, nine months or so later, you were still questioning whether or not long covid was to be incorporated with gulf war syndrome. it is not that the challenge against you is you took a position on long covid in the absence of a proper clinical understanding or advice from your advisers, it is that notwithstanding repeated... the

repeated placement of reports before you you carried on questioning long covid until many months later. i am covid until many months later. i am not certain — covid until many months later. i am not certain that _ covid until many months later. i am not certain that is _ covid until many months later. i am not certain that is correct, - covid until many months later. i am not certain that is correct, i - covid until many months later. i am not certain that is correct, i don't think— not certain that is correct, i don't think i_ not certain that is correct, i don't think i got— not certain that is correct, i don't think i got a _ not certain that is correct, i don't think i got a full explanation or a full paper— think i got a full explanation or a full paper on it... the think i got a full explanation or a full paper on it. . ._ full paper on it... the full paper was on the _ full paper on it... the full paper was on the 1st _ full paper on it... the full paper was on the 1st of _ full paper on it... the full paper was on the 1st ofjune _ full paper on it... the full paper was on the 1st ofjune 2021, - was on the 1st ofjune 2021, correct. he responded by saying thanks, so it is not exactly gulf war syndrome? and that was your take on long covid? iikla war syndrome? and that was your take on long covid?— on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients. _ on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients, and _ on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients, and i— on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients, and i saw— on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients, and i saw in _ on long covid? no disrespect to long covid patients, and i saw in the - covid patients, and i saw in the victim — covid patients, and i saw in the victim impact videos some of the victims _ victim impact videos some of the victims of— victim impact videos some of the victims of long covid and i can imagine — victims of long covid and i can imagine how dreadful it is, but also with gulf— imagine how dreadful it is, but also with gulf war syndrome there were many— with gulf war syndrome there were many people who have terrible symptoms for a very long time. there are also— symptoms for a very long time. there are also people who think they may

be suffering, i think this is now accepted. _ be suffering, i think this is now accepted, from something associated with the _ accepted, from something associated with the gulf war, but who are not in fact— with the gulf war, but who are not in fact suffering from something associated with the gulf war. so what _ associated with the gulf war. so what i _ associated with the gulf war. so what i was — associated with the gulf war. so what i was trying to say was where is the _ what i was trying to say was where is the line? — what i was trying to say was where is the line? please can someone explain — is the line? please can someone explain to— is the line? please can someone explain to me what this is? i was getting _ explain to me what this is? i was getting anecdotal accounts of people who were _ getting anecdotal accounts of people who were suffering from it, and i wanted _ who were suffering from it, and i wanted to— who were suffering from it, and i wanted to be able to say what we understand it to be and what we were doing _ understand it to be and what we were doing about _ understand it to be and what we were doing about it. what we were doing about— doing about it. what we were doing about it _ doing about it. what we were doing about it was fighting covid, because the way— about it was fighting covid, because the way to— about it was fighting covid, because the way to stop long covid is to stop— the way to stop long covid is to stop covid _ the way to stop long covid is to stop covid-— stop covid. one final topic in relation to — stop covid. one final topic in relation to the _ stop covid. one final topic in relation to the broad - stop covid. one final topic in - relation to the broad overarching issue of disparity, even indeed, commissions, as you have said, the report by kemi badenoch, who led significant cross government

exercise on the disproportionate impact of covid on ethnic minorities, i think following a report from public health england in june 2020. do you happen to know why that report, the work done by kemi badenoch, did not have a disabled persons? it is a technical question, it is not clear why it didn't. it is it is not clear why it didn't. it is a very good _ it is not clear why it didn't. it is a very good question _ it is not clear why it didn't. it is a very good question and i will make sure the _ a very good question and i will make sure the inquiry gets an answer, but i sure the inquiry gets an answer, but i can't _ sure the inquiry gets an answer, but i can't give — sure the inquiry gets an answer, but ican't give it— sure the inquiry gets an answer, but i can't give it to you off the top of ican't give it to you off the top of my— i can't give it to you off the top of my head. i can't give it to you off the top of my head-— i can't give it to you off the top ofm head. of my head. may we then turn back... it does of my head. may we then turn back... it does not — of my head. may we then turn back... it does not mean _ of my head. may we then turn back... it does not mean the _ of my head. may we then turn back... it does not mean the interests - of my head. may we then turn back... it does not mean the interests of - it does not mean the interests of the disabled were not looked at in some _ the disabled were not looked at in some other format.— some other format. indeed. now returnina some other format. indeed. now returning to _ some other format. indeed. now returning to the _ some other format. indeed. now returning to the chronology - some other format. indeed. now returning to the chronology and i returning to the chronology and having just to the moment —— just for the moment put to one side there is overarching but general issues, mark sedwill, you said earlier that

mark sedwill, you said earlier that mark, now lord sedwill, suggested he should move on, and you agreed. i don't think we need to put it up, in his witness statement martin reynolds, your private secretary, talks about the meeting he had arranged with you to meet with mark sedwill on the 14th of may, your diary shows a meeting with him. "i identified a slot on the 14th of may for me to run the prime minister with the findings of the review." you will recall helen macnamara had produced a report, as had mark sedwill." the prime minister decided instead to use this lot for a 121 conversation with mark sedwill where he told him he had lost confidence in him." had you lost confidence in him, which i asked you earlier, ordered mark sedwill tell you he wanted to move on and you agreed? ——

or did mark sedwill? he wanted to move on and you agreed? -- or did mark sedwill?— or did mark sedwill? he did and -- an outstanding _ or did mark sedwill? he did and -- an outstanding job _ or did mark sedwill? he did and -- an outstanding job for _ or did mark sedwill? he did and -- an outstanding job for this - or did mark sedwill? he did and -- an outstanding job for this country| an outstanding job for this country for a _ an outstanding job for this country for a long — an outstanding job for this country for a long time it was a very distinguished permanent secretary of the home _ distinguished permanent secretary of the home office, a national security adviser. _ the home office, a national security adviser. he — the home office, a national security adviser, he has done everything. i was and _ adviser, he has done everything. i was and remain hugely grateful to his service. — was and remain hugely grateful to his service. he wanted to move on. the evidence — his service. he wanted to move on. the evidence from dominic cummings, martin reynolds and helen macnamara is regardless of the genesis of why he moved on or was effectively sacked, whichever way milady concludes, his departure or impending departure led to general bad blood, it showed chaos, according to mr cummings, mr reynolds says it damage stability in the civil service and helen

macnamara said it led to a real and damaging impactand make macnamara said it led to a real and damaging impact and make those in the centre less confident about challenging. nobody was safe if the cabinet secretary was not. dealing with the unravelling preoccupied a number of us for critical weeks. would you agree that the consequences of his contingent departure had to wider ramifications quite damaging impact, in fact, departure had to wider ramifications quite damaging impact, infact, on the civil service in number ten on the civil service in number ten on the cabinet office? i the civil service in number ten on the cabinet office?— the cabinet office? i don't think that is the _ the cabinet office? i don't think that is the case, _ the cabinet office? i don't think that is the case, i _ the cabinet office? i don't think that is the case, i think - the cabinet office? i don't think that is the case, i think there i the cabinet office? i don't think i that is the case, i think there was a in the _ that is the case, i think there was a in the civil— that is the case, i think there was a in the civil service and they did a in the civil service and they did a very— a in the civil service and they did a very good _ a in the civil service and they did a very good job —— i think there was a very good job —— i think there was a fantastic— a very good job —— i think there was a fantastic array of talent in the civil service. i think what mattered in that— civil service. i think what mattered in that period and what was getting us all— in that period and what was getting us all down was the knowledge, creeping — us all down was the knowledge, creeping or otherwise, that this thing _ creeping or otherwise, that this thing was — creeping or otherwise, that this thing was coming back and we needed

to deal— thing was coming back and we needed to deal with it, and it was going to be very— to deal with it, and it was going to be very hard — to deal with it, and it was going to be very hard and we needed to get organised — be very hard and we needed to get organised to do it. that was, i think. — organised to do it. that was, i think. the _ organised to do it. that was, i think, the thing that made people scratchy. — think, the thing that made people scratch . ., ., ., think, the thing that made people scratch. ., ., ., , think, the thing that made people scratch . ., ., ., , ., scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a re aort on scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a report on the — scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a report on the workings _ scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a report on the workings of— scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a report on the workings of number- scratchy. helen macnamara prepared a report on the workings of number ten | report on the workings of number ten and the cabinet office, as you know, without going through it in detail because it has been placed before the inquiry repeatedly, it is identified very significant concerns in the working operations of number ten and the cabinet office. i have seen two versions of this document. _ i have seen two versions of this document-— i have seen two versions of this document. , . ., ., ., document. there is a draft and a final version? _ document. there is a draft and a finalversion? i— document. there is a draft and a final version? i saw— document. there is a draft and a final version? i saw the - document. there is a draft and a final version? i saw the final i final version? i saw the final version- _ final version? i saw the final version- it — final version? i saw the final version. it reflected - final version? i saw the final version. it reflected a i final version? i saw the final version. it reflected a civil. version. it reflected a civil service _ version. it reflected a civil service unease about the challenging

approach _ service unease about the challenging approach of some of the