the uk government is looking to team up with rwanda in a controversial migrant transfer deal. how does that sit with rwandans who oppose long—serving president paul kagame? well, my guest is former political prisoner and opposition leader victoire ingabire umuhoza. does rwanda deserve the plaudits it's getting? victoire ingabire umuhoza,

in kigali, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it's a great pleasure to talk to you. ijust wonder, would you accept the basic proposition that in the last...almost three decades, rwanda has become one of africa's great success stories? yes, there is some achievement in development in our country, but the development that the people praise the administration of kagame to have achieved is only in kigali, the capital. it is really the cleanest city in the country and with beautiful buildings. but in rural areas, we have the poverty. the people live in abject poverty. i understand what you're saying, that, of course, one can get a false impression looking at kigali and all of the new development.

but look at the words, the words that come from former us president bill clinton, who hailed paul kagame as one of the great leaders of our time. look at the words that come from the world bank, which over recent years has consistently given your country, rwanda, a stamp of approval for its economic policies and sound economic management. do those stamps of approval fill you with positivity? or do you think people are misunderstanding your country? i think that people misunderstand our country. why? because people believe only...the history of the one who has a victory, the war victory in our country. but you know that rwanda has genocide in 1994, but before the genocide, and during and after the genocide, there are also crimes against

humanity committed in rwanda. and therefore, until today, there is no process of reconciliation. and if...we are not reconciled as one nation, how can you build sustainable development? so if the people come in rwanda and they stay in the capital, in kigali, of course they can think that rwanda is developed, but we stay a poor country in the world. you know that rwanda is among 25 poorest countries in the world. i just want to be clear about what you're saying. when you refer back, of course, to the 1994, the terrible, unutterably terrible genocide of �*91i, which left so many hundreds of thousands of rwandans dead, when you say that reconciliation has not been achieved, you seem to be sort of countering the reality of rwanda. i mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but for three decades

since then, rwanda hasn't seen serious inter—communal violence. we've seen the rwandan government pass various different laws and even change the constitution to ensure that there can be no ethnic basis for law—making in the country. and, you know, the government sends this message to the people that they must adhere to the message that all of the citizens are rwandans, first and foremost. so those are real achievements, are they not? no. it is not really the achievement because we will achieve the effective reconciliation among rwandans the day we accept to recognise all crimes committed in rwanda, to remember all victims of our dark history, harmonise our history.

then we can build sustainable development in rwanda, then we can build the reconciliation, then could we build a nation based on trust, norms and values. that is not the case today. and if people challenge the narrative of rwanda government, they are labelled to be the denier of genocide and of the enemy of the country. so this is the sign that we have a long way to go to achieve the reconciliation, if the government does not tolerate any critics regarding the reconciliation, the process of reconciliation, in our country. ijust wonder if you've changed your views in any way since 2010, because you'd been living in exile in europe during the terrible genocide. you spent more years abroad, and then you came home in 2010, determined to build a political career. and in the first big speech you made back in rwanda in 2010,

you made a whole point of saying, "look, we haven't gone far "enough with the truth and reconciliation process, "full accountability for what happened in our country." and as a result of what you said, you were put on trial and you were convicted of terrorism—related charges, and you spent more than five years in solitary confinement. have you changed your views in any way or not? no, i did not change my vision, because if we cannot achieve effective reconciliation, we can't achieve sustainable development. if you take a look in our history, to exercise power, to keep power or to access to power, every time the politicians used violence because of the lack of a democratic governance in our country. so i want that we change it, we change the way to keeping power or to access to power,

that we use democratic ways. yeah, but don't you accept the fundamental premise that paul kagame and the ruling rpf government have moved rwanda beyond these arguments based on ethnicity and inter—communal tensions? you know, he has built a new country, has he not? it is not a new country. rwanda stay rwanda, with our dark history that we have to recognise what happened during this dark history. we have to recognise all victims. the ethnicity really is not the problem we have here in rwanda. the problem we have in rwanda is the lack of the democratic governance in our country. if we can organise a dialogue between the rwanda government and its dissident voice to set up an institution that can secure

a guarantee to everybody, i think we will have stability. but today, we have so many refugees outside the country, and these refugees created the tension between rwanda and neighbour states, because rwanda accused uganda, accused burundi, and today they have a problem with the drc because of the presence of the refugees in those countries... yeah, we'll come back to relations with neighbours in a moment, butjust sticking with what's happening to political dissidents, to opposition activists inside rwanda right now, let me just be clear about you. i mean, you were released from prison, granted clemency by kagame some four orfive years ago. you now have your own political party. we are looking toward presidential elections in 202a. are you free and able to run against kagame? no, i don't...

i am not afraid to participate in the election except if i will be rehabilitated. they say i have started the process and it is up to the regime of kagame to accept that we participate in the elections. but you have to see the problem we have in rwanda. if you take a look at all presidential elections that was in rwanda since 2003, all...opposition figures who could have competed with president kagame were arrested. that is the problem we have. we have no room for opposition in rwanda. i have seen that several high—profile opposition figures have been detained. indeed, some have gone missing. some have been killed in recent years. and i'm looking at the detail particularly of a colleague

of yours, in your own party, who was a key aide of yours — anselme mutuyimana — who was found dead in march 2019. what do you believe happened to him? we don't know, because he left my home. he was my assistant. he left the home. and the next day, i received a call that he was killed. until today... we asked the rwandan investigation bureau to make investigation and to tell us what happened, but until today there is no response from rwanda investigation bureau... see, the president, who has faced accusations, notjust from people such as yourself, but from us—based activist groups like freedom house, from human rights watch as well, he's faced a series of allegations of repression and abusive policy toward dissidents and opposition figures. he has described all of those claims as, quote, "absolute

rubbish and ridiculous". he says, "these accusations are the result of a superiority "complex in the western world." do you think the rwandan people accept what kagame is saying? no. nobody believed what he said, because anselme was killed. the coordinator of my political party was also stabbed to death when he was on his workplace. that... how he can say that it is supremacy? that's the reality we have in rwanda. the human rights is really a bigger issue in our country — regarding the restriction of political activity, regarding the curbing of our civil liberties, the citizen participation in the decision—making and the freedom of expression. today we have so manyjournalists and youtubers who are in prison after they challenged

the rwanda narratives. i have today eight members of my political party who are in prison more than two years without a trial because they only read a book called blueprint...blueprint of revolution, and they followed in an online training session about the philosophy of nonviolence. you can imagine, to put people in prison only for that! yeah. i mean, it's not myjob to make the case for president kagame, but i am interested to see how he characterises what happens to opponents. and we should say that, you know, bad things happen to opponents of his, notjust inside rwanda, but bad things have happened to some of his opponents outside the country as well, living in overseas locations. he says, and i'm quoting him now, "when you betray the government "of rwanda, you betray the people of rwanda.

"and the fact that some of these people opposing me live "in exile has consequences. "they are not at peace, and many of them die. "but," he adds, "they die from different causes." he thinks this sort of message works with his own people. and frankly, the last time he sought re—election, he won 98% of the vote, so he appears to be right. no. first, i would say, i don't know if you read the... ..the report of human rights watch, titled join us or die. that is the philosophy of the ruling party. you have to join them, or you keep quiet or you are dead. secondly, if the president kagame is so popular among rwandans, why his political party does not accept to compete with the best... ..the best—placed opposition figures?

hmm. i suppose one measure of kagame�*s standing isn't just the fact that he does seem to win big majorities when he seeks re—election at home, but he has been embraced by significant members of the international community. i began by talking to you about bill clinton, years ago, hailing him as a visionary leader. but even today, we see that the international community welcomes rwanda. they welcome the fact rwanda is a big participant in un peacekeeping operations. and right now we have the uk government, which is...has done a deal with rwanda for the transfer of unauthorised migrants from the uk, to have them processed inside rwanda. it's another sign of rwanda's acceptability, certainly in the west. yes, that's the truth.

first, i recognise that kagame made some recover effort to revive our country after the genocide. but as i say, there are some short... ..where we fought... ..where we fought — for example, education — to build...in general, to build a sustainable development. and for example, they want to send the asylum seekers in rwanda. but the resource of rwanda is limited. so we cannot offer the wellbeing to those refugees. that is the first problem. the second... hang on, this is interesting, cos when this proposal, and for those watching and listening around the world who aren't familiar with the proposal, the proposal is that people who try to get into the united kingdom in unauthorised ways, particularly via small boats crossing the english channel from france, they will not have the opportunity to have their asylum

claims heard in the uk, but if the british government gets its way, these people will be deported direct to rwanda, where they will be processed in rwanda. and if they are granted asylum, they will then settle permanently in rwanda. borisjohnson, when the ruling conservative government first came up with this idea, borisjohnson, former prime minister, said that this was a great idea, because rwanda is a place where asylum seekers could prosper and thrive. are you saying he's wrong? no, it's wrong, it's very wrong. rwanda is a poor country. they cannot... rwanda cannot offer the wellbeing to those refugees. i will give a simple example. we have refugees from congo who are...who has been in rwanda more than 20 years. they are still in the camp, in refugees�* camp, more than 20 years. few of them can be integrated

in our society because rwanda has limited resources. if those refugees will be sent in rwanda, rwanda has no possibility, no means to offer to them. you know, i think that the british government, will they fund this deal more than five years? but after five years, what will happen to the people? will they be safe in rwanda? because these people that are travelling in the...in the uk because they are looking for... they are looking for freedom. but the thing they cannot find in our country. and the new treaty, i saw that the new treaty saying that the...some lawyers will be sent in rwanda to assist the authority in rwanda and to assess the asylum claims. but i don't think the problem is only that. the problem is not assessing

the asylum claims, but also the problem of human rights in rwanda. ithink... i remember that the supreme court in the uk ruled that the human rights is big issue in rwanda. this human rights... well, if i may, what the uk supreme court is particularly worried about, and it's still actively being discussed in the uk, is the possibility that that migrants processed into rwanda might ultimately be in jeopardy of being returned to countries where their lives would be put at risk. i think it's a clause known as refoulement. but because of a treatyjust signed in the last few days between the rwandan government and the british government, there is now a treaty—based promise from rwanda that that would never happen. do you believe those kinds of promises from kigali can be taken seriously? i doubt about it.

why? if you take a look, i told you about the conclusion of the human rights... ..africa human rights and peoples�* rights court. they declare that i am innocent and they ask the rwandan government to pay reparations. and rwanda is a member of the african union, that rwanda has an obligation to... ..to accomplish the decision of the court, to follow all instruction from...from union african. but rwanda did not respect the conclusion of the court until today. which kind of the promise the uk, the british government can have? because rwanda say that there will be no refoulement of the asylum seekers that will be sent in rwanda. there is no guarantee. well, you say no guarantee. on a final sort of more ethical, principled point, what do you think the rwandan people make of a deal

which basically leaves a rich country, britain, sending people it doesn't want to a poor, relatively poorer country, rwanda, and saying to rwanda, "here's some money, "you deal with them"? what do you think rwandan people think of that? rwanda's people, they are angry about this deal. why? in the last...since 2020, the government of rwanda destroyed the homes of poor people in kigali. that is the problem. without... they destroyed these homes without reparation, without expropriation. and we have the law that allowed people to be moved in their property, but they have to be paid for that. but the rwanda government destroyed their home without expropriation. and today there's people that are saying, "how our government "will receive the refugees from outside, from a rich

"country like the uk, without that our government accept "to pay us our property that were destroyed?" they are angry. they say, "before that the rwanda government accepted to receive "these refugees, they have first to resolve our problem. "we are the people of rwanda. "the rwanda government has obligation for all our wellbeing." so they are angry against this decision. right. a final thought, if i may. throughout this conversation, you've cast doubt on president kagame�*s claim to be doing the best for the rwandan people and for rebuilding rwanda in a way that has put the genocide of �*94 far behind it. you seem to be suggesting that that isn't really what is happening and that there are many problems with kagame�*s rule. but the fact is, you've

spent most of the last 18 years or so in prison. you seem to have no prospect of being able to stand against kagame, and he seems to have every prospect of winning re—election in 202a. you've made enormous sacrifices for your stand, including not seeing your own children grow up, cos they've been in exile and you've largely been in prison. do you regret your decisions, and do you think it may be time to give up your political fight? no. i will never give up. i know that i made... i paid a heavy price to... ..to be in rwanda and to struggle for the democracy in my country. and we will go ahead with my struggle until we establish good governance in our country, that to exercise the power will be done through no—violence means. so this i will not stop, i do not regret anything.

no regrets at all? no, no regrets. i don't regret. no. all right. well, we have to end there, but victoire ingabire umuhoza, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you too. hello there. thursday's weather was pretty wet for many of us, and we're going to see further bouts of heavy rain moving their way in over the next few days. but i think for many there'll be a brief respite in the really wet conditions on friday with some sunnier spells. but we've still got this area of low

pressure into friday, and that's going to keep things pretty unsettled. but the bulk of the rain that we had on thursday has cleared away to the north and the east. and as we start off on friday, temperatures for many of us positive, so about 6—8 degrees celsius. still quite wet and windy in the northern isles throughout the day, and we'll see these showers moving their way in from the west. but there will at least be some sunny spells, particularly towards eastern and south—eastern areas for much of the day. one or two showers eventually moving in, and temperatures probably getting into double figures for many of us. about 6—8 ceslius across scotland. now, the winds will strengthen for a time around the irish sea and the north channel coasts. with that, some further heavy rain spreading through, and then into saturday morning, another band of very heavy rain will slowly move its way in, making it a very wet start to saturday morning. but again, overnight temperatures into saturday staying up into positive figures. now, for the weekend, it will stay unsettled.

there'll be rain at times, but it's not going to be a complete wash—out. there'll be some sunshine around for a time as well. but a very wet start, as i mentioned, for many on saturday. some pulses of heavy rain spreading its way north and eastwards. by lunchtime, spreading into central parts of scotland, northern ireland. for england and wales, there'll be a few showers towards northern and western areas. 0therwise, though, a drier afternoon with some sunny spells. and again temperatures 11—13 degrees in the south, 7—8 degrees further north. that area of rain will continue to move to the north with that area of low pressure, and then another area of low pressure develops as we head into sunday. that's one to watch. we could see some pretty strong winds linked in with that, with again rain spreading its way in from the south—west, pushing north and eastwards. so, yes, a spell of rain for a time before it clears, and there'll be something a bit brighter towards england and wales into the afternoon. just eastern areas staying on the wet side, and temperatures once again about 6—12 degrees celsius. into next week, it starts to calm down a little bit from mid—week

onward with something a bit drier. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm arunoday mukharji. lets get you the headlines.. stripped to their underwear — hands tied behind their backs. israel says suspects in gaza are being interrogated. we'll have more from our international editorjeremy bowen on those new pictures. the us secretary of state and uk foreign secretary meet

for high level talks in washington to reinforce their support for ukraine. the poet, professor and performer benjamin zephaniyah has died just weeks after being diagnosed with a brain tumour — he was 65. welcome to the programme. we begin with the latest on the conflict in israel and gaza. images have emerged from gaza which appear to show dozens of palestinian men, stripped to their underwear, with their hands tied behind their back, being held by israeli defence forces. it's not clear if they have surrendered or if they have been taken by the military. israel has not said who the men are, but it has confirmed that israeli forces are making arrests in gaza.

the new images come as tens of thousands of palestinians