he was running to be he made when he was running to be the conservative party leader in an article _ the conservative party leader in an article in _ the conservative party leader in an article in the spectator where he said that — article in the spectator where he said that he was one of the people in government arguing against further— in government arguing against further restrictions, there is also for example the self—isolation payments that were given to some workers. _ payments that were given to some workers, questions about who was eligible _ workers, questions about who was eligible for — workers, questions about who was eligible for that, also, what different sectors opened before others — different sectors opened before others. there were periods weather example _ others. there were periods weather example pubs were open but certain beauty _ example pubs were open but certain beauty businesses were not or there were still— beauty businesses were not or there were still restrictions around who you could — were still restrictions around who you could bring if you were giving birth— you could bring if you were giving birth irr— you could bring if you were giving birth in a — you could bring if you were giving birth in a hospital. to be with you. so i birth in a hospital. to be with you. so i think— birth in a hospital. to be with you. so i think those questions about what _ so i think those questions about what opened when and why and weather the scientists were consulted will be things— the scientists were consulted will be things that he is questioned on today _ borisjohnson was ultimately making the decisions as prime minister but rishi sunak was very influential, the right—hand man at the time. obviously crucially he cannot get

away from the fact he is in power now, he is in charge now so there is jeopardy for rishi sunak particularly this week when he's not exactly having a great time. he wasn't in the number one job at the time but _ wasn't in the number one job at the time but the — wasn't in the number one job at the time but the fact he now is puts jeopardy— time but the fact he now is puts jeopardy on him and any of the other people _ jeopardy on him and any of the other pebble who — jeopardy on him and any of the other people who have given evidence so far because he is still currently prime — far because he is still currently prime minister and this will be watched — prime minister and this will be watched closely notjust prime minister and this will be watched closely not just by members of the _ watched closely not just by members of the public looking at how he comes— of the public looking at how he comes across, as you've already mentioned, _ comes across, as you've already mentioned, some of the protesters and families of the bereaved, the justifications he gives her some of the decisions he made and some of his own _ the decisions he made and some of his own mps and supporters will be watching _ his own mps and supporters will be watching closely how he responds because _ watching closely how he responds because as you've mentioned, in a broader— because as you've mentioned, in a broader context, he is under pressure _ broader context, he is under pressure around his leadership, his political— pressure around his leadership, his politicaljudgement at the moment, how he _ politicaljudgement at the moment, how he is— politicaljudgement at the moment, how he is under pressure as well, he has been _ how he is under pressure as well, he has been accused even by some of his

own supporters are being tetchy at times— own supporters are being tetchy at times and — own supporters are being tetchy at times and somebody who potentially -ets times and somebody who potentially gets quite defensive when put under pressure _ gets quite defensive when put under pressure and i think some of his own mps pressure and i think some of his own we will— pressure and i think some of his own we will be — pressure and i think some of his own mps will be watching how he performs on a scenario like this and what that— on a scenario like this and what that says — on a scenario like this and what that says about his leadership and his ability— that says about his leadership and his ability to stand up to pressure. ithink— his ability to stand up to pressure. i think those are questions he will face today — i think those are questions he will face today-— face today. you mentioned the article in the _ face today. you mentioned the article in the spectator, - face today. you mentioned the article in the spectator, it's - face today. you mentioned the i article in the spectator, it's come up article in the spectator, it's come up a couple of times in the inquiry, he wrote it the summer of last year, painting himself as this lone voice against lockdown or at least worrying as you say about the implications for the economy but other areas as well and that was at a time the leadership campaign, take it with a slight pinch of salt but that will appeal to certain members of his party, potentially on the right and those he is having trouble with today but will not necessarily be popular with everyone? because there a sense that the inquiry one of the problems was a timing of

lockdown, the second lockdown, maybe at the government had acted sooner and lives may have been said so there is a juggle going on? there is a “uggle going on? that's riaht there is a juggle going on? that's right under no — there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way _ there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way he _ there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way he is - there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way he is in - there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way he is in a - there is a juggle going on? that's right under no way he is in a bit i there is a juggle going on? that's| right under no way he is in a bit of a bihd~ _ right under no way he is in a bit of a bihd~ 0h— right under no way he is in a bit of a bind. on the one hand he will not want _ a bind. on the one hand he will not want to— a bind. on the one hand he will not want to roll— a bind. on the one hand he will not want to roll back from things he said he — want to roll back from things he said he believed in and argued for, lister— said he believed in and argued for, lister covid — said he believed in and argued for, lister covid restrictions because he claims _ lister covid restrictions because he claims that's what he believed in and he _ claims that's what he believed in and he made that pitch to the conservative party members, boaters, mps at _ conservative party members, boaters, mps at the _ conservative party members, boaters, mps at the time he was running for the leader— mps at the time he was running for the leader last summer. on the other hand, _ the leader last summer. on the other hand, sticking to his guns on that point _ hand, sticking to his guns on that point he — hand, sticking to his guns on that point he may well face more scrutiny today— point he may well face more scrutiny today here _ point he may well face more scrutiny today here about whether that was the right _ today here about whether that was the right decision. we today here about whether that was the right decision.— the right decision. we are going to have to step _ the right decision. we are going to have to stop either— the right decision. we are going to have to stop either because - the right decision. we are going to have to stop either because we - the right decision. we are going to i have to stop either because we want to hear from the have to stop either because we want to hearfrom the man himself, rishi sunak is about to give evidence at the covid inquiry in london.

coach documentary evidence please prime minister by giving us your name. . prime minister by giving us your name. , ,, . ~ prime minister by giving us your name-_ you - prime minister by giving us your name._ you have i prime minister by giving us your- name._ you have provided name. rishi sunak. you have provided a witness statement _ name. rishi sunak. you have provided a witness statement for _ name. rishi sunak. you have provided a witness statement for the _ name. rishi sunak. you have provided a witness statement for the purposesl a witness statement for the purposes of this module. 263374 which has been signed in the usual way with the declaration of truth and we are very grateful to you for the provision of that. also the further written material from provision of that. also the further written materialfrom members of your team, then her majesties treasury, the statements of miss joseph and mr york smith all of which will be considered by the inquiry in due course and thank you for providing the statement and attending today. we understand that you want to say some words by way of preface to the evidence you will be giving. preface to the evidence you will be caivin. . ~' ,, preface to the evidence you will be aiavin. . ~' ,, ~ preface to the evidence you will be aiavin. . ~ . ,, giving. thank you, mr keith, thank ou for giving. thank you, mr keith, thank you for having _ giving. thank you, mr keith, thank you for having me _ giving. thank you, mr keith, thank you for having me here _ giving. thank you, mr keith, thank you for having me here today. - giving. thank you, mr keith, thank you for having me here today. i - giving. thank you, mr keith, thank l you for having me here today. i want to start by saying how deeply sorry i am to all of those who lost loved

ones, family members through the pandemic and also all those who suffered in the various different ways throughout the pandemic as a result of the actions that were taken. i thought a lot about this over the past couple of years and it's important we learn the lesson so we can be better prepared in the future and it is in that spirit and with respect for all of those who are affected i am here today and i look forward to giving evidence in the spirit of constructive candour to help the inquiry. has the spirit of constructive candour to help the inquiry.— the spirit of constructive candour to help the inquiry. as is very well known, to help the inquiry. as is very well known. you _ to help the inquiry. as is very well known, you were _ to help the inquiry. as is very well known, you were an _ to help the inquiry. as is very well known, you were an elected - to help the inquiry. as is very well i known, you were an elected member to help the inquiry. as is very well - known, you were an elected member of parliament for richmond in yorkshire in 2015. you then became injanuary 2018 a junior minister in what was then the ministry of housing, communities and local government. he became chief secretary to the treasury in july 2019. became chief secretary to the treasury injuly 2019. and most relevantly

treasury injuly 2019. and most releva ntly for our treasury injuly 2019. and most relevantly for our purposes in february 2020 did you become chancellor of the exchequer after sajid javid mp? yet remain chancellor of the exchequer until july 22, so after the conclusion of the coronavirus pandemic crisis. and of course you became prime minister in the 25th of october 2010 following the resignation of liz tras as leader of the conservative party, that is all correct, is it not? yes, it is. iwould party, that is all correct, is it not? yes, it is. i would like to start with some of the forensic building blocks underpinning your evidence today. the issue of the provision of material to the inquiry. in your statement you set out how you really use text to communicate with colleagues. your phone, you said, does not retain or do you have access to text messages

relating to the period of the crisis. and in addition, you said although on occasion use whatsapp to communicate around meetings and logistics and so on, you generally were only party to whatsapp groups that were set up to deal with individual circumstances such as arrangements for calls and meetings and so on and so forth, is that broadly correct? yes. you do not now have access to any of the whatsapp is you sent during the crisis? i is you sent during the crisis? i don't, i changed my phone multiple times over the past few years and as that has happened, the messages have not come across. as you said, i'm not come across. as you said, i'm not a prolific user of whatsapp in the first instance, primarily communication with my private office and anything that was of significance through those conversations or exchanges would have been recorded officially on my civil servants are as one would

expect. civil servants are as one would ex-ect. . . , , ., expect. evidence has been given to the economy _ expect. evidence has been given to the economy to _ expect. evidence has been given to the economy to the _ expect. evidence has been given to the economy to the effect - expect. evidence has been given to the economy to the effect mr- expect. evidence has been given to i the economy to the effect mrjohnson announced the institution of this inquiry in may 21. and around that time officials discussed the need for ministers and others to retain what stops, it was a matter of debate in whatsapp communications between officials themselves. around that time, april, may 21 did nobody say to you, chancellor, it's important that you retain your whatsapp messages all we need to put into place measures for them to be backed up in case they become relevant to an inquiry? trio. backed up in case they become relevant to an inquiry?- backed up in case they become relevant to an inquiry? no, i do not recall either — relevant to an inquiry? no, i do not recall either those _ relevant to an inquiry? no, i do not recall either those conversations i recall either those conversations that you refer to between officials but you might open referring to officials at number ten downing street instead of the treasury but i do not recall anyone in my office making that recommendation or observation to me at the time. don’t

observation to me at the time. don't ou observation to me at the time. don't you happen — observation to me at the time. don't you happen to _ observation to me at the time. don't you happen to recall, _ observation to me at the time. don't you happen to recall, probably quite a long shot, do you recall changing forms around that time? flat a long shot, do you recall changing forms around that time? not around that time, forms around that time? not around that time. as — forms around that time? not around that time. as l _ forms around that time? not around that time, as i say _ forms around that time? not around that time, as i say i _ forms around that time? not around that time, as i say i have _ forms around that time? not around that time, as i say i have changed i that time, as i say i have changed my phone multiple times in the year since then and as i said previously time that has happened the messages would not have come across but as i as i said i am not a prolific user of whatsapp and that the private office that would have all been recorded formally on the record or where i have had exchanges with other individuals, some of those have been part of the evidence that has formed deliberations to the inquiry. has formed deliberations to the in a ui . , has formed deliberations to the inaui . , . . ., inquiry. they have and we have some of our inquiry. they have and we have some of your evidence _ inquiry. they have and we have some of your evidence and _ inquiry. they have and we have some of your evidence and messages - inquiry. they have and we have some of your evidence and messages with l of your evidence and messages with other interlocutors. turning to the role of chancellor of the exchequer and it is of course because you were chancellor that your evidence today s of the greatest importance. you describe how in your statement, you

describe how in your statement, you describe how in your statement, you describe how there was obviously throughout the currency of the entire crisis, a clash between public health epidemiological considerations and economic and fiscal issues both by way of the economic considerations which had to be taken into account by the government and also the vast economic and societal damage that will be done by decision such as lockdown. in that debate which raged throughout the pandemic, what was the general position of the chancellor of the exchequer? what position generally did you and her majesties treasury take? i position generally did you and her majesties treasury take?- majesties treasury take? i don't think i majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever _ majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever refer _ majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever refer to _ majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever refer to it _ majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever refer to it as - majesties treasury take? i don't think i ever refer to it as a - majesties treasury take? i don't| think i ever refer to it as a clash, i saw my role as chancellor of the exchequer asked making sure that the prime minister had the best possible advice, information, analysis relating to the economic impact and

consequences of some of the decisions he was having to make. obviously the chancellor of the exchequer has to be responsible for the economic and fiscal policy in the economic and fiscal policy in the financial services sector in the country so that was my primary responsibility and role and as a pretend pandemic, myjobs were not just to design and implement economic interventions like furlough or support for public services and businesses but also as i said to provide analysis and advice to the prime minister as he made his decisions. more broadly, touching on what you said at the beginning, as a senior cabinet minister one of the consistent arguments or points that i made from the beginning throughout which is making sure that we collectively and the prime minister considered the totality of the impacts of the decisions we were making. i did not ever describe it as a clash between public health and

economics, i think that's to think about it in far too narrow a way, as i alluded to at the time there was a range of impacts, many of them socio— economic, the impact on the education of children, mental health, criminaljustice, as well as the pure economic impact and it was important policy makers considered the totality of those and that was a consistent point throughout but my particular responsibility was the economy and fiscal policy. i think ou refer economy and fiscal policy. i think you refer to _ economy and fiscal policy. i think you refer to how _ economy and fiscal policy. i think you refer to how the _ economy and fiscal policy. i think you refer to how the issues - you refer to how the issues confronting the government consisted of highly compelling competing interests, would that be fair? yes. interests, would that be fair? yes, i think interests, would that be fair? yes, i think that's _ interests, would that be fair? yes, i think that's right, _ interests, would that be fair? yes, i think that's right, again, - interests, would that be fair? re: i think that's right, again, as i said, none of these decisions were easy and i think everyone acknowledged the incredibly difficult job acknowledged the incredibly difficultjob at the prime minister to balance many different competing interests and make the best decision with the evidence and advice available to him at the time and only he could do that because only

he saw the totality of those with input from different cabinet ministers with their domains of expertise and responsibility. taste expertise and responsibility. we will see some examples of the ways in which the arguments were promoted by her majesties treasury, but in general terms was a question of putting before the prime minister your and the treasury use on the likely consequences of that every decision might be taken by him? or did you engage in the ultimate debate as to what should be done? did you promote a particular outcome in relation to for example lockdown decisions, decisions to ease, decisions, decisions to ease, decisions to institute a road map, decisions to institute a road map, decisions as to whether or not to have a circuit breaker. did you promote a particular position as part of your role as chancellor or was it a question of providing broad advice as to the consequences? i think it's probably difficult to generalise in that way, it will

depend on the decision confronting the prime minister or the committee or the meeting that i will be participating in. it would not be one consistent answer through the pandemic, it would be context specific but as a general rule my primary responsibility was to feed and advice and analysis as to the economic consequences of what was being considered of course, were the prime minister would ask for my brother opinion i would be happy to give it to him if it was something i thought i could offer on the basis of an element of knowledge but broadly, primarily my role was to feed in the economic advice and analysis and i can provide opinion to the prime minister as and when he requested it. do to the prime minister as and when he requested it— requested it. do we take it from the fact this advice _ requested it. do we take it from the fact this advice was _ requested it. do we take it from the fact this advice was given _ requested it. do we take it from the fact this advice was given to - requested it. do we take it from the fact this advice was given to the - fact this advice was given to the prime minister that the prime minister ultimately was the decision maker who mattered? it's notable that a great deal of the advice you provided was directed exclusively at

the prime minister is supposed to perhaps exclusively or in large part to cabinet or the other bodies? of course you address them but the final decision making appears to be concerned solely with the prime minister? it’s concerned solely with the prime minister? �*, . , , ., minister? it's absolutely right to sa the minister? it's absolutely right to say the prime — minister? it's absolutely right to say the prime minister - minister? it's absolutely right to say the prime minister as - minister? it's absolutely right to say the prime minister as i - minister? it's absolutely right to say the prime minister as i say l minister? it's absolutely right to | say the prime minister as i say in my evidence was the ultimate decision—maker, i do not think that is particularly controversial or challenged. only he has the ability to make those decisions across competing interests. i would not say if her to say i only fed advice into him, i'm sure we will go on to discuss it but there were various committee structures set up to facilitate that decision—making and provide a forum for debate and discussion for the prime minister could hear different views from colleagues and obviously bilateral meetings as well. so there was an extensive process by which information was shared, often in the first instance, the treasury which i

would share that information with what later became the covid task force whose job became to coordinate and synthesise information from other departments and put to cabinet committees or presumably the prime minister so he could make his decision. . , minister so he could make his decision. . decision. there was a developed arocess decision. there was a developed process and _ decision. there was a developed process and a — decision. there was a developed process and a process _ decision. there was a developed process and a process that - decision. there was a developed l process and a process that altered over time. the government put into place a number of changes in order to make it work better and we can see the progress from it makes at the beginning and so on but the material shows that when it came to a hard edged decision, whether or not the prime minister would impose lockdown or not impose a circuit breaker or institute the clearing system, the treasury was astute to ensure that it provided its opinion to the prime minister to the very last moment, you were trying to get the last word, to say, prime

minister, these are the consequences of whatever decision you take and you need to know what they are? i am not sure that — you need to know what they are? i am not sure that a — you need to know what they are? i am not sure that a safer— not sure that a safer characterisation. the prime minister is responsible for setting up the decision—making structures that work best for him. and he had done not through the task force, complemented by bilateral meetings with different ministers. all of that really is a question for the prime minister as to whether he wanted to hear the arguments and see the analysis from colleagues. i participated in all of those. as was myjob. and i certainly felt that i always had that opportunity so at no point did ifeel that opportunity so at no point did i feel that i that opportunity so at no point did ifeel that i did not that opportunity so at no point did i feel that i did not have that opportunity to input analysis or my point of view into the process. in general, the way the decisions were made was to committee structures he had set up, in cabinet, for the most

part, that is where decisions were making but there may be a process leading up to that final decision—making meeting but a question for the prime minister as to how he'd like to organise that. for my part i would say i was always able to feed inappropriately and adequately into the mechanisms and ultimately it was up to him how he wanted to hear different views from different people but the decision was made in one of those forums as one would expect in the way our system of government works. 50 one would expect in the way our system of government works. so we are absolutely _ system of government works. so we are absolutely clear, _ system of government works. so we are absolutely clear, there - system of government works. so we are absolutely clear, there was - are absolutely clear, there was never a time you felt you didn't have an adequate opportunity to make your views plain, whatever it was your views plain, whatever it was you wished to say about the difficult decisions the prime ministerfaced, you had that opportunity? has minister faced, you had that opportunity?— opportunity? as a general observation _ opportunity? as a general observation about - opportunity? as a general observation about my - opportunity? as a general - observation about my reflection opportunity? as a general _ observation about my reflection over the period, i do not sit here today thinking gosh, there were many opportunities where i did not have that opportunity, as a general rule i always felt i could. i sought the prime minister probably more than i

saw my own wife during this period, we were working closely together as i was with other cabinet colleagues and as a general rule i was able to participate in everything ifelt and as a general rule i was able to participate in everything i felt i needed to or ought to in order to get the evidence and analysis to him in a way he could use to make decisions. in a way he could use to make decisions-— decisions. let's look at the structure _ decisions. let's look at the structure of _ decisions. let's look at the structure of the _ decisions. let's look at the structure of the way - decisions. let's look at the structure of the way by - decisions. let's look at the i structure of the way by which material and analysis was put before the prime minister. you set out in your statement, the statement at page 23. the various different ways in which treasury analysis was shared with the cabinet office on the prime minister, shared weekly monitoring products, a regular economy update meeting, you refer to particular advice on the 14th of february, a paper in march. there was then a rolling process by which treasury officials contributed to cabinet office advice for the prime

minister on the reopening of non—essential retail. there were obviously publications of your department �*s economic analysis, we see that in paragraph 75. and going back a page, see that in paragraph 75. and going backa page, page see that in paragraph 75. and going back a page, page 22, see that in paragraph 75. and going backa page, page 22, paragraph see that in paragraph 75. and going back a page, page 22, paragraph 72, have you provided certain particularly important papers around about the time of the first lockdown decision, the 12th and 15th of march and after the decision on the 15th of april, we will have a quick look at one or two of those to see the nature at that time of the treasury intervention, 232069, i232 nature at that time of the treasury intervention, 232069, i 232 069. we can see here a document with a readout of a prime ministerial meeting on sunday the 13th of march, the day before lockdown decision, thatis the day before lockdown decision, that is correct? for a meeting of

ipm, the pm commissioned advice and further options, it was a great package of announcements would be put to cobra on monday the 16th and then you can see at the bottom of then you can see at the bottom of the page summary of papers 2pm. and then information about the various options confronting him, household isolation in typical settings, social distancing, shielding and so on. looking at page five. you will see treasury position and did your department set out in relation to each of the particular interventions on social distancing measures, what the consequences would be likely to be in terms of impact, economically and fiscally? and then if we look over the pages, six and eight, we

can see what the impact would be fiscally in terms of a number of the particular option so does that give a fair indication of the information department provided to the prime minister? . �* department provided to the prime minister? , ~ ., . , minister? yes. all i would say as this was very _ minister? yes. all i would say as this was very early _ minister? yes. all i would say as this was very early on, _ minister? yes. all i would say as this was very early on, as - minister? yes. all i would say as this was very early on, as you i minister? yes. all i would say as. this was very early on, as you said so this was weeks into this. i think what you will see over the duration of the next 18 months as i would say the quality and i would say extra granularity of the information and analysis we were able to provide. they focus only on as you can see was on labour supply and impacts and how many lives would be lost during isolation policies and treasury was able to significantly increase the sophistication with which it was modelling the impact of things not least because they were happening,

but it broadened the use of data that we had access to on a much more real time basis from non—traditional sources and are procured and developed other models, particularly at a macroeconomic level, firm level impacts, insolvency, engaging with external experts. this is very early on, as the pandemic progressed, what you will see is the detailed nature of the analysis over time.- you will see is the detailed nature of the analysis over time. would it be fair to say _ of the analysis over time. would it be fair to say perhaps _ of the analysis over time. would it be fair to say perhaps on - of the analysis over time. would it be fair to say perhaps on account | of the analysis over time. would it | be fair to say perhaps on account of the speed with which the first lockdown decision was made, the degree of fiscal and economic analysis, that was placed before the prime minister by comparison to later, was significantly different? it was a much narrower debate, if you like, about the economic and fiscal consequences at that time by comparison to the second and third

lockdown decisions? i comparison to the second and third lockdown decisions?— lockdown decisions? i think that is for not least _ lockdown decisions? i think that is for not least because _ lockdown decisions? i think that is for not least because this - lockdown decisions? i think that is for not least because this was - lockdown decisions? i think that is for not least because this was so l for not least because this was so unpredictable and uncertain. once we entered into the first lockdown then you had data as to the impact of these measures and you could use those to forecast what would happen when you repeat them but at this point, this was not something anyone had grappled with or modelled with any precision before so it was hard to be precise about the impact and we developed more modelling capability to broaden the source of data over time and external groups like the office for budget responsibility, the independent forecaster of the government themselves, in april they published quite extensive independent forecasting on the impact of the economy and they continued to iterate that with other external body so i think there was a considerable body of internal and external work that was don from this point onwards. but as you say, this

was very early on. in terms of the other economic information that was relevant around exactly the same time as this note, was the situation in the court markets. around the same time. in the court markets. around the same time-— in the court markets. around the same time. , , , . ., . same time. just days after that. we will come to — same time. just days after that. we will come to that. _ same time. just days after that. we will come to that. in _ same time. just days after that. we will come to that. in fact _ same time. just days after that. we will come to that. in fact the - will come to that. in fact the lockdown decision was the 23rd in the debate about the occult markets was that thursday before so the 19th. ' ' ., , , 19th. the 19th was the first conversation _ 19th. the 19th was the first conversation i _ 19th. the 19th was the first conversation i had - 19th. the 19th was the first conversation i had with - 19th. the 19th was the first. conversation i had with them. 19th. the 19th was the first - conversation i had with them. we will have another look at another document, 232115, dated the 15th of april 20, after the lockdown decision. the cabinet office produced a paper covid i9 decision. the cabinet office produced a paper covid 19 social distancing reviews, summary of data and we see from pages 5—7, 9—11, a

considerable amount of information and analysis provided about the economic impact of the lockdown and we can see the sort of detail into which it descends. would that economic and societal analysis have been produced by the treasury? i think what you will see from the presentation, i think it was produced by the cabinet office rather than the treasury so no doubt the treasury would have fed into that, i would the treasury would have fed into that, iwould imagine, and the treasury would have fed into that, i would imagine, and worked closely with economic departments for example the department for trade, the department for work and pensions, i sold those departments for example referenced in some sleights that you mention but of course treasury would have fed into that alongside those departments and would have been working closely with them to think through the impact. you have described how ultimately

many of the most momentous decisions were matters for the prime minister. i would like to ask you please about your understanding of where and when those sorts of decisions were taken? the inquiry received a considerable amount of evidence about the debates and decision—making processes that went on around the prime minister with his closest advisers, effectively debating in the cabinet room, 915 meetings, meetings with the prime minister and his advisers. thank you for yourself as to the divide between the taking of those decisions by the prime minister and his advisers and the necessary debate which had to take place in cabinet? don't you believe cabinet was in any way being sidelined as one or two witnesses has suggested? no, that is not my strong recollection. to reiterate what i

said before, first and foremost i was always in a position where i felt i had the opportunity to provide the prime minister with relevant advice and information he needed. that is the first thing. i think the second bird observation was that the covid all i'm covid s structure worked quite well and was modelled on something the prime minister had brought in during the brexit process so it was a template for i had participated in, more at the o for i had participated in, more at the 0 level stop it as a template that had been used before and was shown to work, my general recollection is that it was a good structure and attack the separation between broader strategy and operations, i thought it was a structure that made sense and i found typically effective. i think my significant recollection of this time was the lack of the task force

model early on. which was corrected by aboutjune and then improved over time. and i think that was an improvement and i think actually that was a model that is now ready to be deployed from the shelf and rightly so. but not having a task force at the centre, i think it was described as the gearbox of the engine room that could synthesise across departments the information and analysis and advice coming in for the prime minister to present things in the round together with input from sage. i think was a necessary and important step in improving the quality of the decision—making and the sharing of information and that was not there information and that was not there in the first couple of months. and clearly at that face, the department of health were described as the lead department at the response particularly in march and april, i think if this happened again one would want to make sure that task force model was there from the

beginning day one, day zero because that definitely improve things. still coming —— mr still coming —— mer still coming —— mr mr cummings referred to the cabinet office is a gearbox with sand in it. in those early days from march through to may, by which time, as you rightly say, the covid o and s structure was put into place. say, the covid 0 and s structure was put into place-— put into place. look, i think it was very difficult- _ put into place. look, i think it was very difficult. it's _ put into place. look, i think it was very difficult. it's easy _ put into place. look, i think it was very difficult. it's easy to - put into place. look, i think it was very difficult. it's easy to sit - very difficult. it's easy to sit here now and save the task forces better and of course it was, covid o and s was better, of course it was and s was better, of course it was and it improved decision making. i think those first few weeks in work were extremely difficult for everybody. i don't doubt that everyone was trying very hard to do that the best that they could in trying circumstances, dealing with something we hadn't dealt with before. i wouldn't sit here and say people were not doing the best they

could, i think