are you saying somebody else in government was initially opposed to funding this? i government was initially opposed to funding this?— funding this? i can't recall the individual _ funding this? i can't recall the individual discussions. - funding this? i can't recall the individual discussions. what l funding this? i can't recall the i individual discussions. what was our view individual discussions. what was your view on _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 on _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 on this - individual discussions. what was i your view on 2020 on this matter? individual discussions. what was - your view on 2020 on this matter? i generally can't remember the exact discussions. in the end we did ultimately fund it. there was a discussion— ultimately fund it. there was a discussion about term time and out of term _ discussion about term time and out of term time. ultimately the government did fund quite considerably free school meals programme and replaced it or added to it with_ programme and replaced it or added to it with something more permanent. the very— to it with something more permanent. the very last _ to it with something more permanent. the very last topic he asked you about raised a further meeting on the same topic a year later injune 2021. i didn't understand your answer to his question but can i ask

you this, injune 2021 g do personally oppose free meals for poorer schoolchildren during the summer holidays? 1 poorer schoolchildren during the summer holidays?— poorer schoolchildren during the summer holidays? poorer schoolchildren during the summer holida s? �* , ., summer holidays? i can't remember at what oint summer holidays? i can't remember at what point we — summer holidays? i can't remember at what point we funded _ summer holidays? i can't remember at what point we funded the _ summer holidays? i can't remember at what point we funded the holiday - what point we funded the holiday activity _ what point we funded the holiday activity and food programme because as we _ activity and food programme because as we were _ activity and food programme because as we were coming out of the pandemic— as we were coming out of the pandemic and surprisingly things that were temporary were being removed — that were temporary were being removed more generally. whether it was furlough or support the self—employed. we spent almost £400 biiiion— self—employed. we spent almost £400 billion borrowed £400 billion, it was one — billion borrowed £400 billion, it was one of the most comprehensive support— was one of the most comprehensive support package is put in place anywhere in the world and it did disproportionately benefit the most vulnerable and poverty fell during this period as a result. it's clear thats— this period as a result. it's clear that's not— this period as a result. it's clear that's not sustainable forever so as the pandemic ended and we returned to more _ the pandemic ended and we returned to more normal life it's reasonable returned _ to more normal life it's reasonable returned to —

to more normal life it's reasonable returned to a more normal state that actually _ returned to a more normal state that actually when it came to the situation _ actually when it came to the situation of free school meals even though _ situation of free school meals even though the pandemic support ended more permanent extra support was put in place _ more permanent extra support was put in place so — more permanent extra support was put in place so for provision of meals and activities today is greater and more _ and activities today is greater and more generously funded than it was before _ more generously funded than it was before the _ more generously funded than it was before the pandemic. and the increase — before the pandemic. and the increase in the healthy start vouchers _ increase in the healthy start vouchers which are vouchers which are given — vouchers which are vouchers which are given to— vouchers which are vouchers which are given to expectant only mothers for them _ are given to expectant only mothers for them to— are given to expectant only mothers for them to use on fresh fruit and milk— for them to use on fresh fruit and milk and — for them to use on fresh fruit and milk and things like that when they have new_ milk and things like that when they have new babies. the value of those vouchers _ have new babies. the value of those vouchers was also increased. canl vouchers was also increased. can i 'ust vouchers was also increased. can i just clarify — vouchers was also increased. can i just clarify this _ vouchers was also increased. can i just clarify this matter, _ vouchers was also increased. can i just clarify this matter, you - vouchers was also increased. can i just clarify this matter, you told i just clarify this matter, you told mr keith you never said anything along the lines of good working people pay for their children to eat and don't want freeloaders. do you

recall a meeting at which anybody in the government expressed such a sentiment?— the government expressed such a sentiment? trio. so it was never said, sentiment? no. so it was never said, ou sentiment? no. so it was never said, you don't recall it ever being said by anybody in the uk government? no. if anybody had expressed such a sentiment about the parents of poorer schoolchildren, that would be reprehensible thing to say in the circumstances of a pandemic that has caused so much economic turmoil. it's precisely because i knew the pandemic— it's precisely because i knew the pandemic was causing particular turmoil— pandemic was causing particular turmoil for those who are on the lowest _ turmoil for those who are on the lowest incomes that i was support deliberately and specifically helps them the most and benefited them the most _ them the most and benefited them the most i_ them the most and benefited them the most. i thought it was the right thing _ most. i thought it was the right thing to— most. i thought it was the right thing to do and the judge —— the support— thing to do and the judge —— the support was in place to help the most _ support was in place to help the most vulnerable. of course people would _ most vulnerable. of course people would always likely to do more to do things— would always likely to do more to do things differently but in the round ithink— things differently but in the round i think it's — things differently but in the round i think it's hard to argue with the

proposition that the support we put in place _ proposition that the support we put in place was incredibly comprehensive and in terms of its scale _ comprehensive and in terms of its scale generous by international standards and the evidence is clear it disproportionately benefited those — it disproportionately benefited those on the lowest incomes. | it disproportionately benefited those on the lowest incomes. i am sure that will _ those on the lowest incomes. i am sure that will be _ those on the lowest incomes. ian sure that will be explored in the future. thank you. mr sure that will be explored in the future. thank you.— sure that will be explored in the future. thank you. mr friedman is 'ust future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind _ future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due _ future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due to _ future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due to your _ future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due to your right - future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due to your right but l future. thank you. mr friedman is just behind due to your right but if you make — just behind due to your right but if you make sure _ just behind due to your right but if you make sure you _ just behind due to your right but if you make sure you keep— just behind due to your right but if you make sure you keep your- just behind due to your right but ifi you make sure you keep your voice into the _ you make sure you keep your voice into the microphone. _ you make sure you keep your voice into the microphone. thank- you make sure you keep your voice into the microphone. thank you. i you make sure you keep your voice into the microphone. thank you. [i into the microphone. thank you. i act into the microphone. thank you. act for four national disabled people's organisations and we also want to ask you about those proposed regulations in the winter of 2020 to prevent care workers moving between care homes and other placements to stop the spread of the virus. the issueis stop the spread of the virus. the issue is also dealt with in the statement of head and weekly, then ministerfor statement of head and weekly, then minister for social care and brought back into that role by us prime

minister and we need not go to it directly but for the record it's in 0 27... ministerweekly directly but for the record it's in 0 27... minister weekly deals q 27... minister weekly deals with the problem that these proposals sought to fix the significant number of people worked in more than one care setting, a balance was needed between stopping that happening and protecting people in a profession where staff worked part—time, on zero—hours contract and the majority of that work force were women and working for often low levels of pay. we have heard your answers to miss morris kings council was being questioned for the bereaved families including that you are not directly involved in these decisions so there is no criticism on that. but maybe just put the position of the minister for social care to you and get your reflections

on it. first she advocated for a furlough scheme and then a compensation scheme for workers who under these regulations were going to be mandated effectively not to work. that is in paragraphs 236 of a statement and in essence cutting it short hmc considered these positions but did not approve either furlough or some further compensation scheme and instead it proposed a financial scheme to increase the supply of care workers. so looking back at the situation now and of course thinking forward as prime minister, why reject any kind of furlough scheme orany reject any kind of furlough scheme or any compensation fund and instead prepare —— prefer... which didn't

target the specific target of staff movement. i target the specific target of staff movement-— target the specific target of staff movement. . ., , .. ., movement. i am not sure i can add much to my — movement. i am not sure i can add much to my previous _ movement. i am not sure i can add much to my previous evidence. - movement. i am not sure i can add much to my previous evidence. i i much to my previous evidence. i wasn't _ much to my previous evidence. i wasn't directly involved in these conversations, i'm not familiar with the various— conversations, i'm not familiar with the various arguments that were being _ the various arguments that were being deliberated and policy discussions so it's very hard for me to speculate — discussions so it's very hard for me to speculate or comment beyond what i've to speculate or comment beyond what we already _ to speculate or comment beyond what i've already said in my review of the materials three years later. let me 'ust the materials three years later. let me just try — the materials three years later. let me just try and help you, we know there was an alternative workplace capacity fund and it was for £120 million and it came in from january 2022 supply additional labour but no payment to not work and ultimately the evidence is there, no regulations introduced to stop movement between homes under the

settings so ensured some funding to do with in the staffing but no additionalfunding to do with in the staffing but no additional funding to support not working and no regulations happened. instead there was just voluntary guidance to employers. from the treasury point of view and i'm asking you to reflect on it now and assist the chair, was this voluntary approach a safe enough approach to the movement of staff between care jobs when it was known there was a continuing risk they could not afford to do otherwise? again, i am not familiar— afford to do otherwise? again, i am not familiar with _ afford to do otherwise? again, i am not familiar with all _ afford to do otherwise? again, i am not familiar with all the _ afford to do otherwise? again, i am not familiar with all the policy - not familiar with all the policy debates— not familiar with all the policy debates so i can't sit here and make a pronouncement on what the right policy— a pronouncement on what the right policy would have been. i can tell you that — policy would have been. i can tell you that across all the different health — you that across all the different health and public services interventions that we made £150 billion— interventions that we made £150 billion was spent. you've heard evidence — billion was spent. you've heard evidence from the chief executive of

the nhs _ evidence from the chief executive of the nhs that the government did provide _ the nhs that the government did provide the nhs with the emergency funds needed. i've talked about the billions _ funds needed. i've talked about the billions provided to local authorities who are responsible for social— authorities who are responsible for social care — authorities who are responsible for social care as well. if you are saying — social care as well. if you are saying how some of that money was used to— saying how some of that money was used to have been better prioritised, again i am not familiar with the _ prioritised, again i am not familiar with the specific policy proposal and why— with the specific policy proposal and why it was deemed to be ineffective at the time and why it was not — ineffective at the time and why it was not supported by key system partners — was not supported by key system partners notjust was not supported by key system partners not just the treasury but more _ partners not just the treasury but more broadly. i can't sit here and speculate — more broadly. i can't sit here and speculate on what the right answer is for— speculate on what the right answer is for something i was not involved in. ~ ., . , , is for something i was not involved in. ~ ., , ., is for something i was not involved in. mr thomas is right over by that will -- role- _ in. mr thomas is right over by that will -- role. leslie _ in. mr thomas is right over by that will -- role. leslie thomas - in. mr thomas is right over by that will -- role. leslie thomas and - in. mr thomas is right over by that will -- role. leslie thomas and i l in. mr thomas is right over by that l will -- role. leslie thomas and i am reresent will -- role. leslie thomas and i am represent the _ will -- role. leslie thomas and i am represent the federation _

will -- role. leslie thomas and i am represent the federation of - will -- role. leslie thomas and i am represent the federation of ethnic l represent the federation of ethnic minority healthcare organisations. minority healthca re organisations. those minority healthcare organisations. those were the people we were clapping for on thursday evenings at 8pm. some context for you. the chief scientific adviser to patrick vallance told this inquiry that it was entirely foreseeable that they would be disparities in health, outcomes during the pandemic because of historically known structural inequalities. i have three short questions for you. one, with your eat out to help out scheme specifically please telus what were the specific measures or considerations in its design to address the vulnerabilities of ethnic minority workers in the hospitality sectors and other sectors? figs hospitality sectors and other sectors? �* , hospitality sectors and other sectors? a ., . ., .,

sectors? as i touched on earlier, it was precisely _ sectors? as i touched on earlier, it was precisely because _ sectors? as i touched on earlier, it was precisely because the - sectors? as i touched on earlier, it was precisely because the millions| was precisely because the millions of people — was precisely because the millions of people who worked in that industry— of people who worked in that industry were disproportionately from _ industry were disproportionately from vulnerable groups, lower paid people _ from vulnerable groups, lower paid people moving, that i thought as a matter— people moving, that i thought as a matter of— people moving, that i thought as a matter of socialjustice those jobs are incredibly important to focus on saving _ are incredibly important to focus on saving because all of the evidence we were _ saving because all of the evidence we were seeing and talking to businesses was there was a real fear that they— businesses was there was a real fear that they wouldn't be able to protect — that they wouldn't be able to protect those jobs and people would have to _ protect those jobs and people would have to be _ protect those jobs and people would have to be let go.— have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting — have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting across _ have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting across you _ have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting across you and - have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting across you and i - have to be let go. forgive me to -- the cutting across you and i know. the cutting across you and i know you would not be trying to talk me down on the clock, my question was very specific, what with the specific measures or considerations in its design to address the vulnerabilities of ethnic minority workers in the hospitality sector? just before you answer, mr thomas i think— just before you answer, mr thomas i think that _ just before you answer, mr thomas i think that comment _ just before you answer, mr thomas i

think that comment was _ just before you answer, mr thomas ii think that comment was inappropriate so please _ think that comment was inappropriate so please just— think that comment was inappropriate so please just answer— think that comment was inappropriate so please just answer the _ think that comment was inappropriate so please just answer the question . so please just answer the question prime _ so please just answer the question prime minister— so please just answer the question prime ministerand _ so please just answer the question prime minister and ignore - so please just answer the question prime minister and ignore the - prime minister and ignore the reference _ prime minister and ignore the reference to _ prime minister and ignore the reference to talking _ prime minister and ignore the reference to talking mr- prime minister and ignore the i reference to talking mr thomas prime minister and ignore the - reference to talking mr thomas out. that would — reference to talking mr thomas out. that would be — reference to talking mr thomas out. that would be better— reference to talking mr thomas out. that would be better addressed - reference to talking mr thomas out. that would be better addressed in. that would be better addressed in the government's guidance to the sector— the government's guidance to the sector which i referred to earlier which _ sector which i referred to earlier which was — sector which i referred to earlier which was considerable, 55 pages long. _ which was considerable, 55 pages long. and — which was considerable, 55 pages long, and supplemented by the 100 pages _ long, and supplemented by the 100 pages of— long, and supplemented by the 100 pages of guidance issued by local industry— pages of guidance issued by local industry trade association which had very detailed guidance that i understand was put together with advice _ understand was put together with advice from public health england who are _ advice from public health england who are the experts on this about how to _ who are the experts on this about how to make sure that workforces of all ethnicities were protected at work— all ethnicities were protected at work and — all ethnicities were protected at work and the measures such as screens— work and the measures such as screens and changing shift patterns and practical things i can recall, but that— and practical things i can recall, but that is— and practical things i can recall, but that is how that consideration was properly taken care of not just in the _ was properly taken care of not just in the hospitality industry but across — in the hospitality industry but across the entire economy. we can

auree across the entire economy. we can a . ree this across the entire economy. we can agree this in _ across the entire economy. we can agree this in hindsight, _ across the entire economy. we can agree this in hindsight, your- across the entire economy. we can agree this in hindsight, your eat i agree this in hindsight, your eat out to help out scheme further exacerbated structural inequalities by placing low—paid workers such as those who represent back into an increased risk of infection. we can agree that cantwe? trio. increased risk of infection. we can agree that cantwe?— increased risk of infection. we can agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree that. agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree that- these — agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree that. these workplaces _ agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree that. these workplaces were - agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree that. these workplaces were safe - agree that cantwe? no, i don't agree | that. these workplaces were safe and deemed _ that. these workplaces were safe and deemed to _ that. these workplaces were safe and deemed to be safe for everybody as a result— deemed to be safe for everybody as a result of— deemed to be safe for everybody as a result of the covert secure guidance that they— result of the covert secure guidance that they had to comply with as a matter— that they had to comply with as a matter of— that they had to comply with as a matter of reopening and that was determined by the overall reopening plan and _ determined by the overall reopening plan and actually what it did was protect — plan and actually what it did was protect those peoples livelihoods. the risk _ protect those peoples livelihoods. the risk was those people would not have a _ the risk was those people would not have a job _ the risk was those people would not have a job to go to if we hadn't done _ have a job to go to if we hadn't done something to try and help to make _ done something to try and help to make sure — done something to try and help to make sure their businesses were operating — make sure their businesses were operating and i think that would have _ operating and i think that would have had — operating and i think that would have had devastating socioeconomic and health— have had devastating socioeconomic and health consequences for those

low-paid _ and health consequences for those low—paid people if the job they depended on disappeared. the consequences for them and their family— consequences for them and their family would be incredibly significant and i wanted to do everything i could to save their jobs _ everything i could to save their jobs in — everything i could to save their “obs. , ., ., , ., , jobs. in the planning of the stages ofthe jobs. in the planning of the stages of the eat out _ jobs. in the planning of the stages of the eat out to _ jobs. in the planning of the stages of the eat out to help _ jobs. in the planning of the stages of the eat out to help out - jobs. in the planning of the stagesi of the eat out to help out scheme, what were the assessments made regarding the potential risk of increased transmission within multi—generational households particularly those from black, asian and minority ethnic backgrounds as a result of individuals returning to work in the hospitality sector? and did you use equality impact assessments to assess this risk? i assessments to assess this risk? i will address this before and it will be the _ will address this before and it will be the same answer. it had to help out was _ be the same answer. it had to help out was designed in the context of the safe _ out was designed in the context of the safe lifting of mpi is that had been _ the safe lifting of mpi is that had been signed off and agreed as part

of the _ been signed off and agreed as part of the may plan. there was considerable secure guidance put in place _ considerable secure guidance put in place to— considerable secure guidance put in place to safely reopening the hospitality and the scheme operated within— hospitality and the scheme operated within all— hospitality and the scheme operated within all of those constraints within— within all of those constraints within that guidance that have been previously— within that guidance that have been previously signed off on an approved. | previously signed off on an approved-— previously signed off on an auroved. . . , . , previously signed off on an a- roved. . . , . , ., approved. i have a small number of ruestions approved. i have a small number of questions on _ approved. i have a small number of questions on behalf _ approved. i have a small number of questions on behalf of _ approved. i have a small number of questions on behalf of the - approved. i have a small number of questions on behalf of the long - questions on behalf of the long covert— questions on behalf of the long covert groups _ questions on behalf of the long covert groups. given _ questions on behalf of the long covert groups. given the - questions on behalf of the long - covert groups. given the significant economic— covert groups. given the significant economic costs _ covert groups. given the significant economic costs resulting _ covert groups. given the significant economic costs resulting directly i economic costs resulting directly from _ economic costs resulting directly from long — economic costs resulting directly from long covid _ economic costs resulting directly from long covid which— economic costs resulting directly from long covid which the - economic costs resulting directly from long covid which the covidl economic costs resulting directly i from long covid which the covid has close _ from long covid which the covid has close estimated _ from long covid which the covid has close estimated that _ from long covid which the covid has close estimated that behind - from long covid which the covid hasl close estimated that behind hundred and 58— close estimated that behind hundred and 58 and _ close estimated that behind hundred and 58 and £360 _ close estimated that behind hundred and 58 and £360 million— close estimated that behind hundred and 58 and £360 million between. close estimated that behind hundredl and 58 and £360 million between the period _ and 58 and £360 million between the period march— and 58 and £360 million between the period march 2020 _ and 58 and £360 million between the period march 2020 and _ and 58 and £360 million between the period march 2020 and the _ and 58 and £360 million between the period march 2020 and the march i and 58 and £360 million between the i period march 2020 and the march 2021 for workplace _ period march 2020 and the march 2021 for workplace absenteeism _ period march 2020 and the march 2021 for workplace absenteeism due - period march 2020 and the march 2021 for workplace absenteeism due to i for workplace absenteeism due to lon- for workplace absenteeism due to long covid — for workplace absenteeism due to long covid alone, _ for workplace absenteeism due to long covid alone, would _ for workplace absenteeism due to long covid alone, would you - for workplace absenteeism due to| long covid alone, would you agree that the _ long covid alone, would you agree that the fact — long covid alone, would you agree that the fact the _ long covid alone, would you agree that the fact the significant - long covid alone, would you agree | that the fact the significant number of people _ that the fact the significant number of people who _ that the fact the significant number of people who suffer— that the fact the significant number of people who suffer from - that the fact the significant number i of people who suffer from long—term consequences — of people who suffer from long—term consequences of _ of people who suffer from long—term

consequences of covid—i9 _ of people who suffer from long—term consequences of covid—i9 meant i of people who suffer from long—term| consequences of covid—i9 meant that lon- consequences of covid—i9 meant that long covid _ consequences of covid—i9 meant that long covid was — consequences of covid—i9 meant that long covid was a _ consequences of covid—i9 meant that long covid was a relevant _ long covid was a relevant consideration— long covid was a relevant consideration in- long covid was a relevant consideration in your- long covid was a relevant i consideration in your advice as chancellor— consideration in your advice as chancellor to— consideration in your advice as chancellor to government i consideration in your advice as chancellor to government on i consideration in your advice as i chancellor to government on policy decisions _ chancellor to government on policy decisions to — chancellor to government on policy decisions to limit _ chancellor to government on policy decisions to limit transmission i chancellor to government on policy decisions to limit transmission of. decisions to limit transmission of covid-19? — decisions to limit transmission of covid-19? i— decisions to limit transmission of covid-19? ., . ., , , , covid-19? i touched on this briefly my witness _ covid-19? i touched on this briefly my witness statement. _ covid-19? i touched on this briefly my witness statement. the - covid-19? i touched on this briefly i my witness statement. the treasury participated in a long covid forum that had — participated in a long covid forum that had been put together and i think— that had been put together and i think actually there was not a huge amount— think actually there was not a huge amount known about it particularly early _ amount known about it particularly early on _ amount known about it particularly early on so — amount known about it particularly early on so i don't recall it being a particular— early on so i don't recall it being a particular feature of the advice i was receiving from the chief medical officer— was receiving from the chief medical officer and others because no one understood it at the moment in time. in understood it at the moment in time. in one _ understood it at the moment in time. in one paragraph in your witness statement you touch on it but in november 2020 they will be economic and fiscal outlook reports on page

116 referred to the increased need spending on disability benefits as a result of increases in labour marketing activity as a result of the pandemic which could be directly related to the virus and specifically referred to long covid. do you agree that the opr reports recognised there was enough information by the time of the second lockdown to expect that long covid would result in increased costs of the treasury and scarring to the economy?— costs of the treasury and scarring to the economy? without question we have seen a — to the economy? without question we have seen a rise _ to the economy? without question we have seen a rise in _ to the economy? without question we have seen a rise in economic- have seen a rise in economic activity— have seen a rise in economic activity since the pandemic and it has been — activity since the pandemic and it has been a — activity since the pandemic and it has been a focus of policy for a while _ has been a focus of policy for a while now— has been a focus of policy for a while now with considerable investment at various different ways to try— investment at various different ways to try and _ investment at various different ways to try and support people back into work _ to try and support people back into work i_ to try and support people back into work. i don't disagree that has been a rise _ work. i don't disagree that has been a rise in_ work. i don't disagree that has been a rise in activity and also potentially that was something that

will have _ potentially that was something that will have contributed to scarring. so you _ will have contributed to scarring. so you agree from november 2020 and the time of the second lockdown there was enough information to expect that long covid would result in increased costs the treasury because of the workplace absenteeism and the rise in long covid? i think and the rise in long covid? i think more generally — and the rise in long covid? i think more generally the _ and the rise in long covid? i think more generally the concept i and the rise in long covid? i think more generally the concept of. more generally the concept of scarring — more generally the concept of scarring which is multifaceted and are given — scarring which is multifaceted and are given explanations of the different transmission channels for scarring _ different transmission channels for scarring to— different transmission channels for scarring to occur is something that was already incorporated into the economic— was already incorporated into the economic forecasting from the opr and the _ economic forecasting from the opr and the bank of england and others because _ and the bank of england and others because the prevailing view amongst most economic experts was that they would _ most economic experts was that they would be _ most economic experts was that they would be scarring impacts as a result— would be scarring impacts as a result of— would be scarring impacts as a result of the pandemic. there are different— result of the pandemic. there are different transmission mechanisms and one _ different transmission mechanisms and one of— different transmission mechanisms and one of the labour market of which _ and one of the labour market of which there is a subset so i though there _ which there is a subset so i though there are _ which there is a subset so i though there are a — which there is a subset so i though there are a variety of reasons for scarring — there are a variety of reasons for scarring that have changed over time and no _ scarring that have changed over time and no doubt this was one of them

and no doubt this was one of them and discarding it back was factored into all— and discarding it back was factored into all the — and discarding it back was factored into all the focusing that was done. do you _ into all the focusing that was done. do you agree in relation to long covid a direct health impact arising in the context of workplace absenteeism because of there being growing numbers of long covid sufferers? i growing numbers of long covid sufferers? ., ., growing numbers of long covid sufferers?— sufferers? i have not seen the recise sufferers? i have not seen the precise evidence. _ sufferers? i have not seen the precise evidence. actually i sufferers? i have not seen the precise evidence. actually the | precise evidence. actually the surveys — precise evidence. actually the surveys that have been done and the advice _ surveys that have been done and the advice i_ surveys that have been done and the advice i saw— surveys that have been done and the advice i saw demonstrated it was far more _ advice i saw demonstrated it was far more multifaceted than that and there _ more multifaceted than that and there wasn't one simple explanation. so i there wasn't one simple explanation. so i don't _ there wasn't one simple explanation. so i don't recall there being a direct— so i don't recall there being a direct relationship or someone quantifying the specific contribution of long covid to the rise in_ contribution of long covid to the rise in economic inactivity but it's plausible — rise in economic inactivity but it's plausible to assume it's playing a

part _ plausible to assume it's playing a art. �* ., , ., plausible to assume it's playing a art, �* ., , ., ., plausible to assume it's playing a art. �* ., i. ., ., part. but would you agree that the im act of part. but would you agree that the impact of long _ part. but would you agree that the impact of long covid _ part. but would you agree that the impact of long covid would - part. but would you agree that the impact of long covid would be i impact of long covid would be relevant to policy decisions taken are times when there is high prevalence of covid—i9? iltrui’ith are times when there is high prevalence of covid-19? with regard to economic — prevalence of covid-19? with regard to economic activity _ prevalence of covid-19? with regard to economic activity of _ prevalence of covid-19? with regard to economic activity of the _ prevalence of covid-19? with regard to economic activity of the impact i to economic activity of the impact on scarring — to economic activity of the impact on scarring it is one of a number of factors— on scarring it is one of a number of factors has— on scarring it is one of a number of factors has led to economic inactivity. there is a range of reasons— inactivity. there is a range of reasons for the rise in economic inactivity — reasons for the rise in economic inactivity. policymakers have to consider — inactivity. policymakers have to consider all of them not when on song _ consider all of them not when on sonu. �* . ., consider all of them not when on son. _ �* . ., ., consider all of them not when on sonr. �* . ., ., it song. but including long covid? it seems plausible _ song. but including long covid? it seems plausible to _ song. but including long covid? it seems plausible to assume i song. but including long covid? it seems plausible to assume it i song. but including long covid? it seems plausible to assume it is i song. but including long covid? it seems plausible to assume it is a | seems plausible to assume it is a contributing factor but i can't sit here _ contributing factor but i can't sit here and — contributing factor but i can't sit here and tell you i've seen something that explains exactly what it is contributing to or how much of the rise _ it is contributing to or how much of the rise in— it is contributing to or how much of the rise in inactivity we have seen is down _ the rise in inactivity we have seen is down to— the rise in inactivity we have seen

is down to that. but the rise in inactivity we have seen is down to that.— is down to that. but we do know there has been _ is down to that. but we do know there has been no _ is down to that. but we do know there has been no advice - is down to that. but we do know there has been no advice from l is down to that. but we do know i there has been no advice from her majesty treasury warning of the economic costs of long covid born from high prevalence of covid—i9. how if at all to economic costs from long covert inform your advice to the prime minister and i were able to give an example?— the prime minister and i were able to give an example? more generally the im act to give an example? more generally the impact of _ to give an example? more generally the impact of covid _ to give an example? more generally the impact of covid on _ to give an example? more generally the impact of covid on the _ to give an example? more generally the impact of covid on the labour i the impact of covid on the labour market— the impact of covid on the labour market was— the impact of covid on the labour market was mis—estimated by most people _ market was mis—estimated by most people because a predominant fear was significant and employment which thankfully— was significant and employment which thankfully didn't manifest itself in the end _ thankfully didn't manifest itself in the end but the predominant labour market— the end but the predominant labour market fear from all economists was about— market fear from all economists was about the _ market fear from all economists was about the rising unemployment as the furlough _ about the rising unemployment as the furlough scheme is wound down. what was underappreciated was the rise in economic— was underappreciated was the rise in

economic inactivity. there are a number— economic inactivity. there are a number of— economic inactivity. there are a number of reasons for that. in number of reasons for that. summer number of reasons for that. in summer 2021 the government started planning for high prevalence for covid—i9 which meant the government was accepting they would be more cases of covid—i9 and therefore as a result long covid. with the increased costs for more cases of lung covert and accepted trade—off for keeping the economy open? i for keeping the economy open? i don't think the conversation was ever— don't think the conversation was ever that — don't think the conversation was ever that precise about that particular thing. ever that precise about that particularthing. my ever that precise about that particular thing. my recollection of 2021was_ particular thing. my recollection of 2021 was exit road map was put together— 2021 was exit road map was put together in february, extensive engagement and discussion with our public— engagement and discussion with our public health advisers and chief scientific— public health advisers and chief scientific adviser is, both of them have _ scientific adviser is, both of them have said — scientific adviser is, both of them have said they feel that exit road map is— have said they feel that exit road map is something the government got and did _ map is something the government got and did very well. it was delayed at

one stage — and did very well. it was delayed at one stage. all of that was informed with medical and health advice. we followed _ with medical and health advice. we followed the plan as it was laid out and delayed in one place to accommodate some concerns but it was put together with the input of the medical— put together with the input of the medical advice. put together with the input of the medicaladvice. do put together with the input of the medical advice.— put together with the input of the medical advice. do you accept that the economic— medical advice. do you accept that the economic cost _ medical advice. do you accept that the economic cost of _ medical advice. do you accept that the economic cost of workplace i the economic cost of workplace absenteeism and circumstances with a rising number of persons who are suffering long—term sickness due to long covid, it was important that be a feature of the treasury advice on mpi sunday for if that was taken into account then that became those increased costs were an accepted trade—off for keeping the economy open? i trade-off for keeping the economy 0 en? ., trade-off for keeping the economy 0 en? . ., , trade-off for keeping the economy oen? . ., , ., open? i am not sure there was a rice ice open? i am not sure there was a price ice understanding - open? i am not sure there was a price ice understanding of- open? i am not sure there was a price ice understanding of the i price ice understanding of the potential cost for that particular

reason — potential cost for that particular reason. as i said previously the rise in— reason. as i said previously the rise in economic inactivity was not something — rise in economic inactivity was not something that was foreseen by most economic— something that was foreseen by most economic commentators. the reasons for it are _ economic commentators. the reasons for it are still— economic commentators. the reasons for it are still being bottomed out but are _ for it are still being bottomed out but are multifaceted and don't exclusively focus on one area. there is obviously — exclusively focus on one area. there is obviously an economic cost and that is— is obviously an economic cost and that is why— is obviously an economic cost and that is why the government has been investing _ that is why the government has been investing in _ that is why the government has been investing in reducing inactivity across— investing in reducing inactivity across a — investing in reducing inactivity across a whole range of initiatives particularly in the health space to support— particularly in the health space to support those who can work to work on that— support those who can work to work on that work— support those who can work to work on that work has been ongoing for a lon- on that work has been ongoing for a longtime _ on that work has been ongoing for a long time. there is considerable funding — long time. there is considerable funding in— long time. there is considerable funding in place to support people into work— funding in place to support people into work and reverse economic inactivity — into work and reverse economic inactivity. mr into work and reverse economic inactivi . ~ .~ . ., , into work and reverse economic inactivity-_ my - into work and reverse economic. inactivity._ my question inactivity. mrjacobs? my question is that on behalf— inactivity. mrjacobs? my question is that on behalf of _ inactivity. mrjacobs? my question is that on behalf of the _ inactivity. mrjacobs? my question

is that on behalf of the trade i inactivity. mrjacobs? my question | is that on behalf of the trade union congress. regarding financial support for self isolation. the issue of those on the lowest income facing two weeks of self isolation on the £95 of statutory sick pay or indeed nothing if they are ineligible. firstly, is it accurate to describe that the treasury was urged from many sides to take greater action for financial support for self isolation? the greater action for financial support for self isolation?— greater action for financial support for self isolation? the treasury did take action- _ for self isolation? the treasury did take action. in _ for self isolation? the treasury did take action. in my— for self isolation? the treasury did take action. in my first _ for self isolation? the treasury did take action. in my first budget i for self isolation? the treasury did take action. in my first budget are | take action. in my first budget are delivered — take action. in my first budget are delivered as chancellor in march we made _ delivered as chancellor in march we made changes to the operation of statutory— made changes to the operation of statutory sick pay scheme so that it operated _ statutory sick pay scheme so that it operated from day one rather than from _ operated from day one rather than from day— operated from day one rather than from day four as was normal, that it covered _ from day four as was normal, that it covered self— from day four as was normal, that it covered self isolators and we put in place _ covered self isolators and we put in place half— covered self isolators and we put in place half £1 billion hardship fund distributed to local authorities particularly designed to pick up

those _ particularly designed to pick up those hard cases and make sure those who needed _ those hard cases and make sure those who needed to could get extra support— who needed to could get extra support so those with the decisions that were _ support so those with the decisions that were taken in march. it later became _ that were taken in march. it later became a — that were taken in march. it later became a feature of discussions at the tail— became a feature of discussions at the tail end of the summer, there were _ the tail end of the summer, there were some — the tail end of the summer, there were some conversations between number— were some conversations between number ten were some conversations between numberten and others were some conversations between number ten and others and then there was quite _ number ten and others and then there was quite an— number ten and others and then there was quite an extensive set of deliberations leading to the announcement in september of the £500 _ announcement in september of the £500 payment to support people to self—isolate. £500 payment to support people to self-isolate— self-isolate. you've described vafious self-isolate. you've described various decisions _ self-isolate. you've described various decisions that - self-isolate. you've described various decisions that were i self-isolate. you've described i various decisions that were taken but my question was a different one, is it accurate to describe the treasury was urged for from many sides to take greater action and financial support for self isolation?— financial support for self isolation? �*, . ., ., isolation? it's a fair thing to say that on every — isolation? it's a fair thing to say that on every single _ isolation? it's a fair thing to say that on every single topic- isolation? it's a fair thing to say that on every single topic there | isolation? it's a fair thing to say i that on every single topic there is always— that on every single topic there is always somebody urging the treasury to do more _ always somebody urging the treasury to do more and spend more. that is a universal— to do more and spend more. that is a universal view — to do more and spend more. that is a universal view. you could pick any single _ universal view. you could pick any single policy and that would be the case including this.—

case including this. while some action was _ case including this. while some action was taken _ case including this. while some action was taken is _ case including this. while some action was taken is it _ case including this. while some action was taken is it right i action was taken is it right realistically to say you personally and the treasury were extremely resistant to any significant scheme of support? resistant to any significant scheme of su ort? ., .,, resistant to any significant scheme of support?— resistant to any significant scheme ofsu--ort? ., ,. , ., of support? no. i was sceptical that it would make _ of support? no. i was sceptical that it would make a _ of support? no. i was sceptical that it would make a significant - it would make a significant difference to the levels of people self isolating which was the purported basis for the scheme and it's purported basis for the scheme and its entirety — purported basis for the scheme and it's entirely reasonable for those conversations to happen and they did happen— conversations to happen and they did happen but ultimately a scheme was introduced. it was introduced in septemberand introduced. it was introduced in september and provided a £500 payment. and i think again it's a sign _ payment. and i think again it's a sign of— payment. and i think again it's a sign of a — payment. and i think again it's a sign of a process that is working, this is— sign of a process that is working, this is taxpayers money and it's right— this is taxpayers money and it's right there _ this is taxpayers money and it's right there are conversations that happen— right there are conversations that happen to — right there are conversations that happen to make sure it is being spent _ happen to make sure it is being spent in— happen to make sure it is being spent ina— happen to make sure it is being spent in a way that is effective. there _ spent in a way that is effective.

there are — spent in a way that is effective. there are a _ spent in a way that is effective. there are a number of references in sir patrick's diaries to your personal position and by way of example in the 27th ofjuly 2020 he writes... through sheets is all about personal responsibility. on the 7th of september 2020 chancellor blocking all notion of paint to get people to isolate despite all the evidence this will be needed. are those fake characterisations of your position? those fake characterisations of your osition? ., , ., ., ., position? no. they are not borne out b the position? no. they are not borne out by the evidence _ position? no. they are not borne out by the evidence either _ position? no. they are not borne out by the evidence either because i position? no. they are not borne out by the evidence either because in i by the evidence either because in august— by the evidence either because in august we — by the evidence either because in august we introduced a scheme in hi-h august we introduced a scheme in high incidence areas with payments for people — high incidence areas with payments for people to self—isolate and in september we announced a national scheme _ september we announced a national scheme and those conversations were happening _ scheme and those conversations were happening throughout august and september. the proof is we did

introduce — september. the proof is we did introduce a scheme to do that but like most — introduce a scheme to do that but like most things myjob is to scrutinise _ like most things myjob is to scrutinise and it's right there is debate — scrutinise and it's right there is debate over policy that was the same in this— debate over policy that was the same in this policy like many others. the certain they _ in this policy like many others. tia: certain they were in this policy like many others. lie: certain they were characterisations, for the first six months following self isolation is a key measure from march 2020 until the end of september when the scheme was protein for that period of time it was an issue that was an address wasn't it? itook i took action on self isolation in the first i took action on self isolation in the first bud-et i took action on self isolation in the first bud-et that i took action on self isolation in the first bud-et that i i took action on self isolation in the first bud-et that i delivered i took action on self isolation in the first bud-et that i delivered on the first budget that i delivered on march, _ the first budget that i delivered on march, but i did not become a topic of debate _ march, but i did not become a topic of debate until the end of summer, because _ of debate until the end of summer, because that is when the test, track and trace _ because that is when the test, track and trace scheme was in place at a proper— and trace scheme was in place at a pmper scale — and trace scheme was in place at a proper scale at which point it became _ proper scale at which point it became a _ proper scale at which point it became a more relevant

consideration. it wasn't relevant earlier— consideration. it wasn't relevant earlier because we were in lockdown and we _ earlier because we were in lockdown and we didn't have track and trace up and we didn't have track and trace up and _ and we didn't have track and trace up and running. when it came up at the end— up and running. when it came up at the end of— up and running. when it came up at the end of summer, we went through it as we _ the end of summer, we went through it as we would with any other poticx — it as we would with any other policy. all _ it as we would with any other policy. all the evidence at the time and subsequently has not concluded... people have opinions on this, but— concluded... people have opinions on this, but nobody was able to produce evidence _ this, but nobody was able to produce evidence that it would make a difference to compliance rates. there _ difference to compliance rates. there were reasons that people were not complying, and it was boredom, misunderstanding of the rules and so one. misunderstanding of the rules and so one it _ misunderstanding of the rules and so one it was _ misunderstanding of the rules and so one. it was never clear to me that this was_ one. it was never clear to me that this was the — one. it was never clear to me that this was the primary reason. all the evidence _ this was the primary reason. all the evidence of— this was the primary reason. all the evidence of what we did demonstrate was that— evidence of what we did demonstrate was that it _ evidence of what we did demonstrate was that it did not make a significant difference to compliance rate. significant difference to compliance rate we _ significant difference to compliance rate. we did introduce it in september after a pilot study that was done — september after a pilot study that was done in august.— september after a pilot study that was done in august. before i move on

to m next was done in august. before i move on to my next question, _ was done in august. before i move on to my next question, you _ was done in august. before i move on to my next question, you say - was done in august. before i move on to my next question, you say it - to my next question, you say it wasn't relevant in the