the baroness and the sorry saga of bungled ppe. an exclusive interview, michelle mone admits she lied about her involvement but the problems of the pandemic are not the only hangover from the past. the pandemic are not the only hangoverfrom the past. imilli the pandemic are not the only hangover from the past. will 2020 top dominated by — hangover from the past. will 2020 top dominated by the _ hangover from the past. will 2020 top dominated by the ghosts _ hangover from the past. will 2020 top dominated by the ghosts of— hangover from the past. will 2020 top dominated by the ghosts of what - hangover from the past. will 2020 4p| dominated by the ghosts of what went before? rishi sunak managed to win a vote on his rwanda plan. 283. a vote on his rwanda plan. 269. a fiuht to vote on his rwanda plan. 269. a fight to win _ vote on his rwanda plan. 269. a fight to win the _ vote on his rwanda plan. 269. a fight to win the argument on immigration lurks in the new year. stopping the boats means stopping the gimmicks. the stopping the boats means stopping the gimmicks— stopping the boats means stopping the aimmicks. ~ , ., the gimmicks. the prime minister got throu~h the the gimmicks. the prime minister got through the covert _ the gimmicks. the prime minister got through the covert inquiry _ through the covert inquiry unscathed. i did not say those words. —— the covid inquiry. the words. -- the covid inquiry. the shadow of _ words. -- the covid inquiry. the shadow of the _ words. —— the covid inquiry. the shadow of the pandemic does more than linger. i shadow of the pandemic does more than liner. . ., ., shadow of the pandemic does more than linger-— than linger. i made an error saying to the press _ than linger. i made an error saying to the press i _ than linger. i made an error saying to the press i was _ than linger. i made an error saying to the press i was not _ than linger. i made an error saying to the press i was not involved - than linger. i made an error sayingi to the press i was not involved and i regret— to the press i was not involved and i regret and — to the press i was not involved and i regret and i am sorry. the baroness — i regret and i am sorry. the baroness caught _

i regret and i am sorry. the baroness caught up - i regret and i am sorry. the baroness caught up in - i regret and i am sorry. tue: baroness caught up in the i regret and i am sorry. tte: baroness caught up in the ppi scandal admits she lied but claims the whole thing was shambles. the health service is still struggling with massive backlogs in the winter crisis has arrived.— crisis has arrived. there are no beds. crisis has arrived. there are no beds- our— crisis has arrived. there are no beds. our main _ crisis has arrived. there are no beds. our main question - crisis has arrived. there are no beds. our main question this l beds. our main question this morning. _ beds. our main question this morning, will— beds. our main question this morning, will this _ beds. our main question this morning, will this christmas | beds. our main question this i morning, will this christmas be haunted by the past? the couple at the centre of the ppe scandal tell us they did do a deal using her political contacts, they did make tens of millions but say they are scapegoats. the deputy prime minister oliver dowden is here. what did the government know? labour has long called for answers over ppe contracts and chaos. the shadow health secretary, wes streeting, is here. but it's nearly christmas, so we'll be all singing and dancing today. it was the strictly final yesterday and the great gregory porter gives us a yuletide song. # do you know what i know?

# in your palace warm, mighty king...# morning, morning. and welcome to my panel — actor brian cox is back, presenter and journalist susanna reid joins us, and robert buckland, who was in the cabinet during the covid crisis. a conservative mp. welcome to you all. first, let's check out the headlines. the sunday times splashes with the foreign secretary calling for a sustainable ceasefire in gaza — a definite shift in tone from the government. the sunday telegrpah has a photo in lots of the papers, rishi sunak hugging the italian prime minister, giorgia meloni.

but the story is his warning that hostile states are using immigration to destabilise the west. the observer says the winter crisis in the nhs is on the way. it points to the prime minister missing his big promises on waiting lists. and the sunday mirror splashes with the return of alex batty — the british teenager found this week, after being missing for years. extraordinary story. a bit of a chat about these stories. we will talk a lot today about baroness michelle mone and the interview we were here in a few minutes. we have found old images of you meeting her in 2014 in the independence debate on opposite sides, what do you make of her as a public character? she sides, what do you make of her as a public character?— public character? she is... look, aood public character? she is... look, good god- _ public character? she is... look, good god- i _ public character? she is... look, good god. i cannot _ public character? she is... look, good god. i cannot remember. public character? she is... look,| good god. i cannot remember any public character? she is... look, - good god. i cannot remember any of that. i am at that age where i cannot remember why i have walked in the room. we cannot remember why i have walked in the room. ~ ., , cannot remember why i have walked in the room. ~ . , , cannot remember why i have walked in the room. . , , ., the room. we are very pleased to have ou the room. we are very pleased to have you here- — the room. we are very pleased to have you here. she _ the room. we are very pleased to have you here. she is _ the room. we are very pleased to have you here. she is an - have you here. she is an extraordinary _ have you here. she is an extraordinary woman. i have you here. she is an - extraordinary woman. clearly, have you here. she is an _ extraordinary woman. clearly, quite a brilliant entrepreneur and her

business was a huge success. i of course differ about the fate of our country. we have huge difference about that. my feeling is, she says she lied, you don't lie when you are dealing with something like this. not even tell a little lie. it points you in the wrong direction. if she says... it will make her a scapegoat. she shouldn't tell lies. the interview in a few minutes' time. susanna, covering the story day after day about ppe, what do you make about what you have heard so far? t make about what you have heard so far? ., , , make about what you have heard so far? . , , . , far? i find it absolutely remarkable and why she _ far? i find it absolutely remarkable and why she hasn't _ far? i find it absolutely remarkable and why she hasn't been _ far? i find it absolutely remarkable i and why she hasn't been transparent up and why she hasn't been transparent up until_ and why she hasn't been transparent up until this — and why she hasn't been transparent up until this point and i am really looking _ up until this point and i am really looking forward to the questions you put to— looking forward to the questions you put to her~ _ looking forward to the questions you put to her. we remember being on air at that— put to her. we remember being on air at that time— put to her. we remember being on air at that time how desperate care homes — at that time how desperate care homes were full ppe, hospital wards,

people _ homes were full ppe, hospital wards, people losing their lives because we were not— people losing their lives because we were not properly prepared. i would like to— were not properly prepared. i would like to know why people thought that was an— like to know why people thought that was an opportunity to make money out of a nationai— was an opportunity to make money out of a national crisis when the parent health— of a national crisis when the parent health sector were on their knees. robert, _ health sector were on their knees. robert, one — health sector were on their knees. robert, one of the politicians sitting around the cabinet table during the moment of real crisis that susanna has just described, a big scramble, the normal rules will not applied because of the emergency, what was the atmosphere lie? did the rules have to be broken by government at that point, get it here? it by government at that point, get it here? ., , ., by government at that point, get it here? . , . . by government at that point, get it here? . ., ., , here? it was a virtual cabinet table, here? it was a virtual cabinet table. we _ here? it was a virtual cabinet table, we were _ here? it was a virtual cabinet table, we were probably - here? it was a virtual cabinet table, we were probably in i here? it was a virtual cabinet | table, we were probably in our offices, — table, we were probably in our offices, homes, _ table, we were probably in our offices, homes, trying - table, we were probably in our offices, homes, trying to- table, we were probably in our. offices, homes, trying to govern table, we were probably in our- offices, homes, trying to govern all offices, homes, trying to govern all of this— offices, homes, trying to govern all of this and — offices, homes, trying to govern all of this and hence _ offices, homes, trying to govern all of this and hence you _ offices, homes, trying to govern all of this and hence you had _ offices, homes, trying to govern all of this and hence you had noise - of this and hence you had noise about— of this and hence you had noise about whatsapp_ of this and hence you had noise about whatsapp but _ of this and hence you had noise about whatsapp but there - of this and hence you had noise about whatsapp but there wasl of this and hence you had noisel about whatsapp but there was a of this and hence you had noise - about whatsapp but there was a huge sense _ about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of— about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure _ about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure on— about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure on all— about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure on all of— about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure on all of us - about whatsapp but there was a huge sense of pressure on all of us to - sense of pressure on all of us to make _ sense of pressure on all of us to make sure — sense of pressure on all of us to make sure the _ sense of pressure on all of us to make sure the public— sense of pressure on all of us to make sure the public servants . sense of pressure on all of us to l make sure the public servants and health _ make sure the public servants and health service _ make sure the public servants and health service and _ make sure the public servants and health service and prison - make sure the public servants and health service and prison service i | health service and prison service i was responsible _ health service and prison service i was responsible for— health service and prison service i was responsible for were - health service and prison service i was responsible for were able - health service and prison service i was responsible for were able to i was responsible for were able to work— was responsible for were able to work as— was responsible for were able to work as safety— was responsible for were able to work as safely as _ was responsible for were able to work as safely as possible. - was responsible for were able to work as safely as possible. they| work as safely as possible. they were _ work as safely as possible. they were anxious _ work as safely as possible. they were anxious and _ work as safely as possible. they were anxious and worried, - work as safely as possible. they were anxious and worried, their| were anxious and worried, their families— were anxious and worried, their families were _ were anxious and worried, their families were frightened. - were anxious and worried, their families were frightened. it - were anxious and worried, their families were frightened. it was incumbent _ families were frightened. it was incumbent on _

families were frightened. it was incumbent on us _ families were frightened. it was incumbent on us to— families were frightened. it was incumbent on us to make - families were frightened. it was incumbent on us to make sure i families were frightened. it was l incumbent on us to make sure we protected — incumbent on us to make sure we protected them _ incumbent on us to make sure we protected them as _ incumbent on us to make sure we protected them as much - incumbent on us to make sure we protected them as much as - incumbent on us to make sure we i protected them as much as possible. there _ protected them as much as possible. there is— protected them as much as possible. there is no— protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt— protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt had _ protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt had we _ protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt had we kept- protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt had we kept to - protected them as much as possible. there is no doubt had we kept to thej there is no doubt had we kept to the normal— there is no doubt had we kept to the normal procedures, _ there is no doubt had we kept to the normal procedures, we _ there is no doubt had we kept to the normal procedures, we might - there is no doubt had we kept to the normal procedures, we might well. normal procedures, we might well have been— normal procedures, we might well have been far— normal procedures, we might well have been far too _ normal procedures, we might well have been far too late _ normal procedures, we might well have been far too late to - normal procedures, we might well have been far too late to help - have been far too late to help people — have been far too late to help people. the _ have been far too late to help people. the pressure - have been far too late to help people. the pressure was - have been far too late to helpj people. the pressure was on, have been far too late to help - people. the pressure was on, but to think— people. the pressure was on, but to think anybody— people. the pressure was on, but to think anybody wanted _ people. the pressure was on, but to think anybody wanted to _ people. the pressure was on, but to think anybody wanted to try- people. the pressure was on, but to think anybody wanted to try to - people. the pressure was on, but toj think anybody wanted to try to make a fast _ think anybody wanted to try to make a fast buck— think anybody wanted to try to make a fast buck out — think anybody wanted to try to make a fast buck out of _ think anybody wanted to try to make a fast buck out of this _ think anybody wanted to try to make a fast buck out of this is _ a fast buck out of this is distasteful— a fast buck out of this is distasteful to _ a fast buck out of this is distasteful to say- a fast buck out of this is distasteful to say the i a fast buck out of this is i distasteful to say the least a fast buck out of this is - distasteful to say the least and deeply— distasteful to say the least and deeply concerning. _ distasteful to say the least and deeply concerning. let- distasteful to say the least and deeply concerning.— distasteful to say the least and deeply concerning. let us hear what the had deeply concerning. let us hear what they had to — deeply concerning. let us hear what they had to say. _ deeply concerning. let us hear what they had to say, michelle _ deeply concerning. let us hear what they had to say, michelle mone - deeply concerning. let us hear what they had to say, michelle mone wasj deeply concerning. let us hear what i they had to say, michelle mone was a hugely successful businesswoman. given the red ermine gown and put in the house of lords by david cameron. but she and husband now are better known for their part in one of the biggest scandals of the pandemic — billions of wasted ppe. when covid hit, she suggested to government ministers that she could help in the scramble for desperately needed hosptial kit, masks and gowns. then her husband's start—up firm ppe medpro secured a deal for £200 million. their masks were used, but the gowns were bought, then rejected by the government, saying they weren't up to scratch, and sit unused.

the couple had denied again and again they'd had anything to do with the company or its £60 million of profit. but after many months of silence, they admit now that's not true. they face a claim in court from the department of health and a separate investigation by the national crime agency too. they say their gowns were made according to the contract and they are scapegoats. a couple of days ago, in an exclusive tv interview, they told me their story. there was a call to arms forall lords, baronesses, mps, senior civil servants to help because they needed massive quantities of ppe. given the fact that i've got 25 years manufacturing experience, i looked at doug and i thought, we can really, really help here. ijust know all the key players in the far east. and i made the call to michael gove. what did you say to him? ijust said, we can help,

and we want to help. he was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. so we entered into discussions, ppe medpro, myself, i led the consortium, i've got two other partners. but you had vip access. you had a cabinet minister on speed dial you could phone up and say, i think i can make this happen, can you put me in touch with the right people? yeah, well, that's what we were asked to do. but what i think the public think is we're trying to keep it a secret that i was involved. everyone in dhse, nhs, the cabinet office, the government knew of my involvement. they asked us to both declare our interest. did you tell the house of lords authorities? i discussed that with the cabinet office and they said, we just need you to put it in writing and declare your interest with us, that's all. and mine as well. but the house of lords rules say that members have a clear duty to provide

information which might reasonably be thought by others to influence their actions. because there is a question of perception here too. and in fact the rules also say that sometimes registration of a spouse or partner's interests is also required. as far as i was aware, if you are not a director, not a shareholder, not financially benefiting, then that is exactly what i did. if i was told by the cabinet office, no, you actually need to do this, i would have done it straightaway. i am a business guy, so i think like an entrepreneur. i don't know the parliamentary rule book. they must have been satisfied in the end to have awarded the contracts. if they were not satisfied, they should not have awarded us the contracts. they should have said, there is a perceived conflict here. but what is also clear is the parliamentary rules are clear that members of the house of lords or members of the house of commons, if they have a financial interest or a perceived conflict of interest, which you mentioned, doug,

the responsibility is on them. it was on you to tell parliament. do you wish you had? if i knew i had to... the cabinet office advised me only to do this. by your own admission though, and for the reasons set out, you say you wanted to help, you used your contact with government ministers to help broker a commercial deal for a company that was to bring tens and tens of millions of pounds of profit... yeah. ..for your husband, for yourfamily, and you didn't tell the authorities in parliament. to a lot of our viewers watching, that might sound like you were trading on your title and not following the rules, not declaring it all. no, no, absolutely not. i was just acting the same way as every other baroness, lord, who also put names forwards. there was lots of us. and how much were you paid and how much of it was profit?

so, the two contracts in total came to a value of £202 million. and medpro made a return on its investment of about, realistically, 30%. so, about £60 million? yeah, about that. making a profit of £60 million during a national emergency, like a pandemic? sounds notjust like an enormous amount of cash but also a bit like profiteering. well, ppe prices during the pandemic went up five times and a lot of our competitors were charging, as i said before, on the gowns front, between £7 and £12 a gown. at the very start of the pandemic, the government paid actually numbers in excess of that. we cut out most of the middle people and we dealt direct with the manufacturer. so, you saved the government a lot of money but you also made a lot of money? nothing wrong with making money,

but that is what happened, right? we made a good return for the risk involved, and the risk was considerable. but when it became public that you were connected to the company, you both denied it. why? i wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and i regret and i'm sorry for not saying straight out, yes, i am involved. because dhse, the nhs, the cabinet office, they all knew of my involvement, but i didn't want the press intrusion for my family. my family have gone through hell with the media over my career and i didn't want another big hoo—ha in the press. over a period of months, you said again and again that you had no connection and your lawyers even said to some journalists it would be defamatory, they would be libelling you, if they told the truth. you know, thisjust

wasn't a slip—up. you didn't tell the truth for months on end. i think if we were to say of anything that we have done, we've done a lot of good, but if we were to say anything we have done that we are sorry for, and that is we should have told the press straight up, straightaway, nothing to hide. and again, i'm sorry for that. but i wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. no—one. but that's exactly what you were trying to do. you had lawyers working for both of you telling people, telling the public that you had nothing to do with the company and saying it would have been a libel to suggest you were. yeah, it is something we regret doing and we listened to our advisers. what happened then to the money, the profit you have alluded to, around about £60 million? so, i led the consortium. at the end of the day, i am an isle of man resident,

the money comes to the isle of man, that's fundamentally where i live, it goes on my tax return, and like all my sources of income that i have generated over many years, it goes into trust for the benefit of my family. was any of it used to buy a yacht? no, no. used to buy a what, sorry? a yacht. a yacht? it's not my yacht, it's not my money. i don't have that money and my kids don't have that money and my children, my family have gone through so much pain because of the media, they have not got £29 million. this money from ppe medpro, as i understand it, went into two trusts. one of those trusts, the beneficiaries of that trust, where half of the profit went, are you and your children. and doug's children too. the benefit of all my family. i am his wife, so i am a beneficiary, as well as his children, as well as my children. you have said repeatedly you didn't financially benefit from this deal.

except it is just a matter of time before you benefit. it is my income, it is taxed on my tax return, and actually, if i die, one day in the future, she is going to directly benefit. as a family, you are benefiting from those tens of millions of pounds, whether it is today or in ten years, 20 years, 30 years, for most people watching this, you did a deal with the government to provide more than £200 million worth of ppe and your family has made tens of millions of pounds from it. no, my family hasn't, laura, made tens of millions of pounds. god forbid if my husband decides to divorce me after this show! and takes me out of his letter of wishes, i take my husband out of my will, if we, god forbid, get divorced, i don't benefit. it's my husband's money. it's his money. it's not my money, and it's not my children's money.

michelle has no access to that money. michelle has no discretion over that money. unless i wanted to give everything away to strangers or to charity or whatever, she was always going to benefit, and my family will benefit in due course. her family benefit, my family benefit. that's what you do when you're in the privileged position of of making money. we're not talking here about someone getting a christmas bonus and saying, "oh, i'm not going to give it to my wife now, i'm going to put it in the bank and surprise her later on with a lovely family holiday, or i'm going to hold that money back because maybe one day we might be able to save a deposit for a kids flat further down the line." sure. you've both admitted today that you will, in time, benefit financially from that cash. yourfamily, as a unit, will benefit from that cash. why didn't you just be more straightforward about it? i am being straightforward about it now, laura. i'm saying to you that i didn't receive that cash. that cash is not my cash.

that cash is my husband's cash. but do you admit... it'sjust like my mum and my dad going home with his wage packet on a friday night and giving it to my mum, so she's, you know, benefiting from that as well. but that cash is not my cash, it's not my children's cash, as the press and the attacks keep going on. do you admit today that, with the way that you've currently got your finances set up, that one day you and your children will benefit from that money? because you right now are listed as the beneficiaries of that trust. if one day, if, god forbid, my husband passes away before me, then i am a beneficiary, as well as his children and my children. so, yes, of course. how would you describe the government's overall handling of trying to get ppe during that crisis, from what you saw?

the reason why doug and i are sitting here is because we've been their scapegoats, and they have destroyed our lives for over two years because it suited them, the narrative suits them to attack us the way they have done. and the pain that's caused on ourfamily, and i think the attacks go up all the time. over 700 threats, you know, "i'm going to throw acid over you," "i'm going to burn your house down." and the hatred, we've been absolutely vilified.- and, you know, we've onlyjust... we've done that one thing, which was lie to the press, to say we weren't involved. no—one deserves this. so, doug, let's then take you to a time when, as far as you're concerned, contracts have happened, the deliveries have taken place. the department of health then gets in touch, says something's gone wrong.

they try to claw back money. tell us what then happened. our view is we supplied everything on time to specification and at competitive prices. we get to november 2022, and i attend this negotiation, as opposed to a mediation, and this individual asked me, would i pay more for the other matter to go away? i was speechless. i didn't quite understand what he meant by that, because the only other matter on the table was the nca investigation, which had commenced, as far as we were aware, in april 2022. i was absolutely gobsmacked. i'm clear in my mind what he was saying. he was asking me if i would pay more money for the nca investigation to be called off. that's an extraordinarily serious allegation to make. if that's what you believed

was happening, why didn't you go to the police at that point? if you believed a senior government official was trying to bribe you to make a criminal investigation go away, why didn't you report it to the police then? i take the advice of my legal team, and the legal team, at that point in time, suggested that we park that one for now. you've told us very candidly today, you led the consortium, you did the deal, and yet when you look up, at companies house, which is where everything is meant to be registered in a normal way, you're nowhere to be seen. in... in terms of my appointments, they're all handled by the people in my family office, that's just normal practice and has been that way forever. i think some of our viewers, though, might feel there's a bit of a pattern. you know, at the beginning of this, the rules of the lords say that your interests should

be declared — you didn't, because you say the cabinet office told you not to. when it first emerged that you were behind ppe medpro, you didn't tell the truth about that. doug, you led this consortium, you've made tens of millions of pounds out of it for your family, but your name's nowhere to be found on companies house when it comes to the business. and, michelle, you've said repeatedly you didn't benefit financially, except you've also admitted today that, in time, your families may well benefit from huge amounts of money. there's a pattern here of time and again trying to hide what really happened. i'm not here today to defend my record on why i am a private person and don't want anyone in the press to know of any business activity or anything i get engaged in. but, michelle, it does feel like the truth has had to be dragged out here. not really, laura... no? ..because the only thing i would say to you is the only error that i have

made is to say to the press that i wasn't involved. but you repeatedly didn't tell the truth. whether it's the money, whether it's your involvement, whether it's whether you had to tell parliament. it's a smoke screen. that's why we're here today, doing an interview... but do you see why people listening might feel that? that's why we're explaining to people. what do you hope that 2024 will bring for you, legally, for your reputations and for you personally? i don't honestly see there's a case to answer. i can't see what we've done wrong. doug and the consortium have simply delivered a contract, a delivery contract of goods. but after everything, you can't see what you've done wrong? when you've admitted today that you lied to the press... that's not a crime.

..and, by extension, you lied to the public? saying to the press i'm not involved to protect my family, can ijust make this clear? it's not a crime. the press have got nothing to do with my family. i was protecting my family. and i think people will realise that, and the press attacks that i have gone through, since i walked into the house of lords... i was a very successful individual businesswoman, and since i walked into the house of lords, it's been a nightmare for my family. so, that's not a crime, to say to the press... ..to tell, you know, the press what i did. that's not a crime. doug barrowman, michelle mone, thank you so much for speaking to us today. oliver dowden, the deputy prime minister, joins us this morning. welcome to the studio. there is an ongoing criminal investigation into some aspect of this, so we must be

careful about what we say. but there are some straightforward questions i would like to ask you. michelle mona says everyone in government knew the details of ppe medpro, did you know? i should say at the very beginning of theirs that there is both a national crime agency investigation and the department of health is engaged in civil litigation with the company concerned, so i need to be careful not to prejudice what is exactly the right approach to this, that it exactly the right approach to this, thatitis exactly the right approach to this, that it is being pursued through appropriate legal channels, both criminal and civil. but appropriate legal channels, both criminal and civil.— criminal and civil. but 'ust it is on the record * criminal and civil. but 'ust it is on the record that _ criminal and civil. butjust it is on the record that one - criminal and civil. butjust it is on the record that one of- criminal and civil. butjust it is on the record that one of your| on the record that one of your colleagues, a health minister during the pandemic, has said that the link between them and the government was known before the contract was awarded, so you are not denying the parts of government were aware of it? i parts of government were aware of it? ., ., , ., it? i have not seen what the minister _ it? i have not seen what the minister said _ it? i have not seen what the minister said in _ it? i have not seen what the minister said in respect - it? i have not seen what the minister said in respect of i it? i have not seen what the . minister said in respect of that, but we have to be very careful with this, that we respect what is an

ongoing legal process, but i have set my position out in respect of myself. set my position out in respect of m self. ., . ., ., , set my position out in respect of m self. ., .., ., , , myself. one of their contentions is that they have _ myself. one of their contentions is that they have been _ myself. one of their contentions is that they have been made - myself. one of their contentions is - that they have been made scapegoats, michelle mone says the whole approach to ppe was a shambles in a broader sense. there are lots of companies that provided ppe that was never used and they are not being sued, and they are. so never used and they are not being sued, and they are.— never used and they are not being sued, and they are. so do you think they might — sued, and they are. so do you think they might have _ sued, and they are. so do you think they might have a _ sued, and they are. so do you think they might have a point? _ sued, and they are. so do you think they might have a point? first - sued, and they are. so do you think they might have a point? first of. they might have a point? first of all, it is worth remembering, going back to where we were at the height of the covid crisis, i did many interviews like this, and indeed with susanna reid, one of your guests today, who were constantly pressing the government, when will we get more of this equipment? indeed the opposition were saying going for anyone to get this equipment, and so of course we had a drive to get ppe in as rapidly as we could. but there were proper checks undertaken, there was proper due diligence undertaken. now, of course, with any large allocation of

government funds for large—scale procurement, there will be issues that arise subsequently, but in respect of this, you can see there is civil litigation happening, there is civil litigation happening, there is a criminal investigation happening, so if there is fraud, the government will crack down on it. talking about the broader issue, if you are confident the checks and balances were followed, why was so much ppe never used? why was £9 billion wasted if the correct checks were carried out?— were carried out? there is a wider oint were carried out? there is a wider point about _ were carried out? there is a wider point about the _ were carried out? there is a wider point about the scale _ were carried out? there is a wider point about the scale of— were carried out? there is a wider point about the scale of ppe - were carried out? there is a wider point about the scale of ppe thatl point about the scale of ppe that was ordered, and in terms of the reasonable worst case scenario, going back to the height of covid, countries around the world were trying to grapple with it and where it was going, so we ordered large amounts of ppe to meet the reasonable worst—case scenario. thankfully, that did not transpire, so we had more ppe that was required. that was the correct

balance for the government in this situation. pare balance for the government in this situation. �* , ., , ., ., balance for the government in this situation. ., situation. are you proud that you ended u- situation. are you proud that you ended up with — situation. are you proud that you ended up with £9 _ situation. are you proud that you ended up with £9 billion - situation. are you proud that you j ended up with £9 billion wasted? situation. are you proud that you i ended up with £9 billion wasted? i would dispute that number, but ended up with £9 billion wasted? t would dispute that number, but the overall principle that we order to be reasonable worst—case scenario is, i think, be reasonable worst—case scenario is, ithink, what be reasonable worst—case scenario is, i think, what your viewers would expect us to do, if we did not know quite where the virus was going, we made sure we got the maximum amount available, and that is what we did. some experts would say you had to order in a panic because the government was not properly prepared. i want to address a different element of this, where people with political connections were able to be fast forwarded in what was known as the vip line. there were a number of conservative politicians with referrals into that vip line for people who go to commercial contracts. that has created claims of cronyism on quite a broader scale. on reflection, would it be better not to use that

approach? it has left you open, and other conservative politicians open, to claims of cronyism, that contracts were being doled out to the government's mates. t contracts were being doled out to the government's mates. i should say that is categorically _ the government's mates. i should say that is categorically not _ the government's mates. i should say that is categorically not the _

in its right to self defence to remove the threat of hamas and get the hostages back. those are the things that ensure we have a sustainable ceasefire. but things that ensure we have a sustainable ceasefire. but what does a sustainable — sustainable ceasefire. but what does a sustainable ceasefire _ sustainable ceasefire. but what does a sustainable ceasefire mean? - a sustainable ceasefire mean? essentially what you have said, the uk government position all along, israel must be allowed to deal with hamas as they wish. there has been a shift, david cameron explicitly saying, israel has killed too many people in gaza, not something the government was saying a few weeks ago, so what has changed? where did they cross the line? the ago, so what has changed? where did they cross the line?— they cross the line? the first thing i would they cross the line? the first thing i would say — they cross the line? the first thing i would say and — they cross the line? the first thing i would say and appoint _ they cross the line? the first thing i would say and appoint the - they cross the line? the first thing | i would say and appoint the foreign secretary is making, i know it is the case he is making and i have discussed it, the difference between those calling for a ceasefire now and the position of the uk government is the ceasefire cannot be sustainable until we have dealt with hamas. in respect of the conflict in gaza right now, we

always knew it would be a difficult conflict, hamas hides itself among the civilian population, makes it very difficult for the idf to go after them. very difficult for the idf to go afterthem. but very difficult for the idf to go after them. but nonetheless, we continue to urge restraint, abiding with international law, and at the same time on the wider ceasefire point, trying to ensure we get as long a period of poses in hostility to allow the aid in, for example 87000000 pounds with... [30 to allow the aid in, for example 87000000 pounds with... do you think israel has 87000000 pounds with... do you think lsrael has gone — 87000000 pounds with... do you think israel has gone too _ 87000000 pounds with... do you think israel has gone too far? _ 87000000 pounds with... do you think israel has gone too far? is _ 87000000 pounds with... do you think israel has gone too far? is that - israel has gone too far? is that behind the change in tone? t will behind the change in tone? i will not characterise _ behind the change in tone? i will not characterise it _ behind the change in tone? i will not characterise it as _ behind the change in tone? i will not characterise it as it - behind the change in tone? i will not characterise it as it is - behind the change in tone? tun tt not characterise it as it is well going too far, it is dealing with a very difficult situation. really important for the viewers to remember, not only the scale of the atrocity committed against israel, if you're going after an enemy that literally hides underneath hospitals, hides among the civilian population, you will sustain high levels of civilian casualties. what we as the uk, and are saying, israel, you need to exercise

restraint, by the way, also making sure in terms of getting the hostages out, that we support that, in relation to evidence from raf planes, supporting israel in the wider effort to make sure we get the hostages out. we wider effort to make sure we get the hostages out-— hostages out. we asked you a few weeks ago about any british hostages, anything else you can update us on that? t hostages, anything else you can update us on that?— hostages, anything else you can update us on that? i cannot provide a further update _ update us on that? i cannot provide a further update other— update us on that? i cannot provide a further update other than to - update us on that? i cannot provide a further update other than to say i a further update other than to say we continue to work very closely with the israelis to make sure those remaining british hostages will be released as soon as we possibly can. you will understand why we asked the question, we quite understand the delicate situation. oliver dowden, thank you for coming in. what do you think? 0f of what he had to say and michelle mone and doug barrowman? let us know. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use #bbclaurak, and we'll try and share some of the converation later in the show. let us have a stock—take with the

panel. susanna, watching the interview with michelle mone, what was going through your mind? she thinks was going through your mind? ste: thinks she is the victim because of the press intrusion. i have enormous sympathy because press intrusion can be very uncomfortable, but there is a reason for press intrusion and thatis a reason for press intrusion and that is because there is an allegation of wrongdoing. ijust think it is utterly remarkable she does not see how sensitive this issueis does not see how sensitive this issue is for people. ppe was so desperately needed that business people thought they could make tens of millions of pounds out of the desperation and she is a member of the house of lords and a public servant, a member of our parliament, i don't really see she understands what the problem is here, that people are genuinely upset. we went

through an absolutely devastating pandemic, hospitals suffered, care homes suffered, people lost members of the family, people are permanently disabled by covid, our children's education was shattered. nobody wants to see anybody profiteering from this crisis. robert, what did you make of it? at the same time, she would argue, other business people might argue, ppe was not going to grow on trees, but what did you make of their explanations?— but what did you make of their exlanations? , ., ..,, explanations? there will be a cost to this but what _ explanations? there will be a cost to this but what really _ explanations? there will be a cost to this but what really came - explanations? there will be a cost| to this but what really came across was her_ to this but what really came across was her failure to understand that as a member of the house of lords it is your— as a member of the house of lords it is your responsibility to register interest — is your responsibility to register interest. the government is not going _ interest. the government is not going to — interest. the government is not going to tell you what to do. as an mp and _ going to tell you what to do. as an mp and as — going to tell you what to do. as an mp and as a — going to tell you what to do. as an mp and as a minister. you have to think— mp and as a minister. you have to think of— mp and as a minister. you have to think of the — mp and as a minister. you have to think of the ministerial interests in the _ think of the ministerial interests in the commons register, there is a code _ in the commons register, there is a code of— in the commons register, there is a code of conduct everybody should understand and read, and you follow that because when you are in the house _ that because when you are in the house of— that because when you are in the

house of lords, notjust like a title — house of lords, notjust like a title it— house of lords, notjust like a title it is— house of lords, notjust like a title it is a— house of lords, notjust like a title, it is a public role. that was quite _ title, it is a public role. that was quite striking. she title, it is a public role. that was quite striking-— title, it is a public role. that was uuite strikinu. ,, . ., , ., quite striking. she claimed everyone in the government _ quite striking. she claimed everyone in the government knew, _ quite striking. she claimed everyone in the government knew, did - quite striking. she claimed everyone in the government knew, did you - in the government knew, did you know? you are in the government at the time. t know? you are in the government at the time. ., ~' ., know? you are in the government at the time. ., ~ ., ~ know? you are in the government at the time. ., ~ ., . ., the time. i did not know. we had approaches _ the time. i did not know. we had approaches in — the time. i did not know. we had approaches in the _ the time. i did not know. we had approaches in the mha _ the time. i did not know. we had approaches in the mha about - the time. i did not know. we had | approaches in the mha about ppe the time. i did not know. we had - approaches in the mha about ppe but the question my officials and i were always— the question my officials and i were always asking, is it down a fight? a lot of— always asking, is it down a fight? a lot of companies did not have ppe —— is it bona _ lot of companies did not have ppe —— is it bona fide? it raised alarm bells— is it bona fide? it raised alarm bells because we wanted to know exactly _ bells because we wanted to know exactly who was making it. at one point _ exactly who was making it. at one point we _ exactly who was making it. at one point we had prisoners making ppe because _ point we had prisoners making ppe because it — point we had prisoners making ppe because it was part of the national effort, _ because it was part of the national effort, we — because it was part of the national effort, we had this feeling we were all in _ effort, we had this feeling we were all in it— effort, we had this feeling we were all in it together, wanted to do the best _ all in it together, wanted to do the best any— all in it together, wanted to do the best. any perception people were trying _ best. any perception people were trying to— best. any perception people were trying to take advantage of the goodwill is i think deeply concerning.— goodwill is i think deeply concerning. goodwill is i think deeply concerninu. ,, . , ., concerning. ryan, what did you think? she _ concerning. ryan, what did you think? she had _ concerning. ryan, what did you think? she had a _ concerning. ryan, what did you think? she had a telephone - think? she had a telephone conversation _ think? she had a telephone conversation with _ think? she had a telephone conversation with michael. think? she had a telephone - conversation with michael gove which was about— conversation with michael gove which was about what — conversation with michael gove which was about what she _ conversation with michael gove which was about what she could _ conversation with michael gove which was about what she could do, - conversation with michael gove which was about what she could do, what i was about what she could do, what they could — was about what she could do, what

they could do — was about what she could do, what they could do -- _ was about what she could do, what they could do —— brian. _ was about what she could do, what they could do —— brian. at- was about what she could do, what they could do —— brian. at times i was about what she could do, what they could do —— brian. at times of a major— they could do —— brian. at times of a major crisis — they could do —— brian. at times of a major crisis like _ they could do —— brian. at times of a major crisis like with _ they could do —— brian. at times of a major crisis like with covid, - they could do —— brian. at times of a major crisis like with covid, to i a major crisis like with covid, to take _ a major crisis like with covid, to take advantage _ a major crisis like with covid, to take advantage of _ a major crisis like with covid, to take advantage of a _ a major crisis like with covid, to take advantage of a situation i a major crisis like with covid, to. take advantage of a situation like that, _ take advantage of a situation like that, something _ take advantage of a situation like that, something obscene - take advantage of a situation like that, something obscene about. take advantage of a situation like j that, something obscene about it take advantage of a situation like i that, something obscene about it as far as _ that, something obscene about it as far as i _ that, something obscene about it as far as i am _ that, something obscene about it as far as i am concerned. _ that, something obscene about it as far as i am concerned. i— that, something obscene about it as far as i am concerned. i think- that, something obscene about it as far as i am concerned. i think you i far as i am concerned. i think you have _ far as i am concerned. i think you have to _ far as i am concerned. i think you have to behave _ far as i am concerned. i think you have to behave with _ far as i am concerned. i think you have to behave with utmost - far as i am concerned. i think you i have to behave with utmost scrutiny and there _ have to behave with utmost scrutiny and there wasn't _ have to behave with utmost scrutiny and there wasn't enough _ have to behave with utmost scrutiny and there wasn't enough scrutiny i have to behave with utmost scrutiny and there wasn't enough scrutiny in| and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case _ and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case i— and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case, i don't— and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case, i don't think, _ and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case, i don't think, at - and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case, i don't think, at all. - and there wasn't enough scrutiny in this case, i don't think, at all. it- this case, i don't think, at all. it has led — this case, idon't think, at all. it has led to— this case, idon't think, at all. it has led to her— this case, i don't think, at all. it has led to her being _ this case, i don't think, at all. it has led to her being in - this case, i don't think, at all. it has led to her being in the - has led to her being in the situation _ has led to her being in the situation and _ has led to her being in the situation and her- has led to her being in the situation and her husband | has led to her being in the - situation and her husband being in the situation — situation and her husband being in the situation they— situation and her husband being in the situation they are. _ situation and her husband being in the situation they are. i— situation and her husband being in the situation they are. i find - situation and her husband being in the situation they are. i find the l the situation they are. i find the lack of— the situation they are. i find the lack of scrutiny— the situation they are. i find the lack of scrutiny in _ the situation they are. i find the lack of scrutiny in the _ the situation they are. i find the . lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing — lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing with _ lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing with this _ lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing with this is _ lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing with this is what - lack of scrutiny in the government in dealing with this is what is - in dealing with this is what is questionable. _ in dealing with this is what is questionable. and _ in dealing with this is what is questionable. and i- in dealing with this is what is questionable. and i think- in dealing with this is what isl questionable. and i think that should — questionable. and i think that should have _ questionable. and i think that should have been _ questionable. and i think that should have been looked - questionable. and i think that should have been looked at. i questionable. and i think that- should have been looked at. when there _ should have been looked at. when there is— should have been looked at. when there is a — should have been looked at. when there is a major— should have been looked at. when there is a major crisis, _ should have been looked at. when there is a major crisis, naturally, i there is a major crisis, naturally, people _ there is a major crisis, naturally, people are — there is a major crisis, naturally, people are looking _ there is a major crisis, naturally, people are looking to _ there is a major crisis, naturally, people are looking to the - there is a major crisis, naturally, i people are looking to the advantage of making _ people are looking to the advantage of making money— people are looking to the advantage of making money out _ people are looking to the advantage of making money out of— people are looking to the advantage of making money out of it, - people are looking to the advantage of making money out of it, that - people are looking to the advantage of making money out of it, that is. people are looking to the advantage of making money out of it, that is a| of making money out of it, that is a kind of— of making money out of it, that is a kind of instinctive _ of making money out of it, that is a kind of instinctive thing, _ of making money out of it, that is a kind of instinctive thing, but- of making money out of it, that is a kind of instinctive thing, but it - of making money out of it, that is a kind of instinctive thing, but it is i kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong _ kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong and — kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong and it— kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong and it should _ kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong and it should be - kind of instinctive thing, but it is wrong and it should be curbed. i kind of instinctive thing, but it isi wrong and it should be curbed. is wrong and it should be curbed. [£3 there wrong and it should be curbed. there a case, robert, with the government trying to go fast in the panic did make lots of mistakes, they were willing to break the normal rules, and one official, an official at the time, from the cabinet office, they said to me a few days ago, we basically broke the

rules for the vaccine and it was a great success, we broke the rules on procurement of ppe and it was a disaster. is that a fair assessment? i think it was an extraordinary time. wartime is an exceptional period for government, this was the biggest peacetime challenge any government had faced, flying a plane at night without a manual, without autopilot, trying to work out what was in the best interest of the people we were serving. yes, mistakes were made. but i think overall we were in the same boat as other governments, trying our very best to navigate a way through and save lives. . , ., , ., save lives. except as the covid inuui save lives. except as the covid inquiry was — save lives. except as the covid inquiry was revealing, - save lives. except as the covid inquiry was revealing, we - save lives. except as the covid inquiry was revealing, we did i save lives. except as the covid i inquiry was revealing, we did not have _ inquiry was revealing, we did not have someone at the helm who took it seriously, _ have someone at the helm who took it seriously, we — have someone at the helm who took it seriously, we had a prime minister who failed — seriously, we had a prime minister who failed to attend five cobra meetings. there are indications that would _ meetings. there are indications that would be _ meetings. there are indications that would be extremely serious and we needed _ would be extremely serious and we needed to— would be extremely serious and we needed to prepare, we should never be in _ needed to prepare, we should never be in a _ needed to prepare, we should never be in a situation where we were so

badly— be in a situation where we were so badly prepared for what was coming. this is— badly prepared for what was coming. this is on— badly prepared for what was coming. this is on the government that we 'ust this is on the government that we just did _ this is on the government that we just did not — this is on the government that we just did not have the stuff in place that was— just did not have the stuff in place that was needed. of course, we can acknowledge that perhaps it came thicker— acknowledge that perhaps it came thicker and faster, but we had the indications — thicker and faster, but we had the indications and we should have had a prime _ indications and we should have had a prime minister who was there and not finishing _ prime minister who was there and not finishing off— prime minister who was there and not finishing off a biography of shakespeare at the time. the covid inuui has shakespeare at the time. the covid inquiry has been — shakespeare at the time. the covid inquiry has been one _ shakespeare at the time. the covid inquiry has been one of— shakespeare at the time. the covid inquiry has been one of the - shakespeare at the time. the covid inquiry has been one of the big - inquiry has been one of the big events of the last year, i want to give you a brief reminder of some of the other things that have gone on in 2023. five promises. five missions. why won't you tell us whether or not you use private health care? but again, it's a distraction from what the real issue is. i think australia will become a republic at some point. it feels natural. jacinda ardern said she doesn't have enough in the tank to continue. how much is in nicola sturgeon's tank? there's plenty in the| tank at the moment. and so today i am announcing my intention to step - down as first minister. the prime minister's made the key pledge to stop the boats. it's going to be pretty obvious when we've succeeded in achieving that.

we're having fantastic results across the country. plymouth, what a night they've had in plymouth. cheering always disappointing to lose hard—working conservative councillors. if i told you that you would cut the mona lisa in half- and you would have half of it at the louvre and half of it i in the british museum, do you think your viewers would appreciate the - beauty of the painting? we ended up with the king, i'm sure completely by accident, wearing a tie with the greek flag on it. there it is, the greek flag. i mean, if he was trying to make a point, if he was trying to make a point, he could hardly have been clearer. i think he was just trying to bring out the blue in his eyes. perhaps that is what he was up to. robert buckland, not a good year for your party, january, rishi sunak thought, maybe i can turn it around, doesn't look like it. trier?r thought, maybe i can turn it around, doesn't look like it.— doesn't look like it. very tough ear for doesn't look like it. very tough year for a _ doesn't look like it. very tough year for a governing _ doesn't look like it. very tough year for a governing party - doesn't look like it. very tough year for a governing party 13 .

doesn't look like it. very tough . year for a governing party 13 years yearfor a governing party 13 years into a period of office. the prime minister was right in his priorities at the beginning of the year and progress has been made on the most important one, tackling inflation, which affects all of our lives. a long way to go on the other key pledges. long way to go on the other key ledres. ., . , ., pledges. you have ended the year... the sort of — pledges. you have ended the year... the sort of person _ pledges. you have ended the year... the sort of person who _ pledges. you have ended the year... the sort of person who puts - pledges. you have ended the year... the sort of person who puts his - the sort of person who puts his shoulder to the wheel.- the sort of person who puts his shoulder to the wheel. another week of chaos and — shoulder to the wheel. another week of chaos and infighting _ shoulder to the wheel. another week of chaos and infighting over - of chaos and infighting over migration. yet again the tories are in a position where we can see the splits from space. t in a position where we can see the splits from space.— splits from space. i think that talkin: splits from space. i think that talking about _ splits from space. i think that talking about the _ splits from space. i think that talking about the issue - splits from space. i think that talking about the issue is - splits from space. i think that talking about the issue is the | splits from space. i think that - talking about the issue is the right thing to do because people are concerned about the challenge we and indeed the west face from mass migration. indeed the west face from mass miaration. ., ., �* , ., ,, ., migration. you don't 'ust talk about the issue, migration. you don't just talk about the issue, screaming _ migration. you don't just talk about the issue, screaming and _ migration. you don't just talk about the issue, screaming and shouting. migration. you don't just talk about | the issue, screaming and shouting at each other. t the issue, screaming and shouting at each other. ., the issue, screaming and shouting at each other. . ., ,. ., ., each other. i am not screaming and shoutinu. each other. i am not screaming and shouting- l — each other. i am not screaming and shouting- i am _ each other. i am not screaming and shouting. i am sure _ each other. i am not screaming and shouting. i am sure you _ each other. i am not screaming and shouting. i am sure you never - each other. i am not screaming and i shouting. i am sure you never would. i am a passionate _ shouting. i am sure you never would. i am a passionate welshman - shouting. i am sure you never would. i am a passionate welshman but - shouting. i am sure you never would. i am a passionate welshman but i . shouting. i am sure you never would. i am a passionate welshman but i do | i am a passionate welshman but i do think to ignore the issue would be to fail the public.— to failthe public. brian, you have been watching — to failthe public. brian, you have been watching this _ to failthe public. brian, you have been watching this issue - to failthe public. brian, you havel been watching this issue carefully. ijust been watching this issue carefully. i just find it extraordinary that

ijust find it extraordinary that successive governments, tory, labour, _ successive governments, tory, labour, they have not exercised duty of care _ labour, they have not exercised duty of care they— labour, they have not exercised duty of care, they don't really look to what _ of care, they don't really look to what our— of care, they don't really look to what our responsibility is in terms of the _ what our responsibility is in terms of the world. for instance, the rwanda — of the world. for instance, the rwanda crisis, i find it extraordinary, really, that we want to ship— extraordinary, really, that we want to ship these people away, but we don't _ to ship these people away, but we don't examine why are these people here? _ don't examine why are these people here? what has been the situation that has— here? what has been the situation that has turned the world upside down _ that has turned the world upside down and — that has turned the world upside down and made these people want to seek a _ down and made these people want to seek a better life elsewhere? of course _ seek a better life elsewhere? of course there is the illegal aspect of that, — course there is the illegal aspect of that, of— course there is the illegal aspect of that, of course the people who jump— of that, of course the people who jump on— of that, of course the people who jump on that particular bandwagon, but at _ jump on that particular bandwagon, but at the _ jump on that particular bandwagon, but at the same time, to say, let's send _ but at the same time, to say, let's send them — but at the same time, to say, let's send them to rwanda. rwanda might be a better— send them to rwanda. rwanda might be a better situation than our situation _ a better situation than our situation in fact, it could be, but at the _ situation in fact, it could be, but at the same _ situation in fact, it could be, but at the same time, what i find extraordinary is we don't have the duty of— extraordinary is we don't have the duty of care. also what has happened with these _ duty of care. also what has happened

with these extraordinary soldiers, the army— with these extraordinary soldiers, the army and... with these extraordinary soldiers, the army and. . .— with these extraordinary soldiers, the army and. . ._ the| the army and... afghanistan. the same thing _ the army and... afghanistan. the same thing has _ the army and... afghanistan. the same thing has happened. - the army and... afghanistan. the i same thing has happened. difficult for politicians, _ same thing has happened. difficult for politicians, susanna, _ same thing has happened. difficult for politicians, susanna, the - same thing has happened. difficult for politicians, susanna, the public has concerns about high levels of migration yet also voters who have concerns like brian and also people who hold both of those feelings? the iron is who hold both of those feelings? the irony is rishi sunak has staked his reputation — irony is rishi sunak has staked his reputation on _ irony is rishi sunak has staked his reputation on something - irony is rishi sunak has staked his reputation on something he - irony is rishi sunak has staked his reputation on something he doesl irony is rishi sunak has staked his i reputation on something he does not seem _ reputation on something he does not seem to _ reputation on something he does not seem to be _ reputation on something he does not seem to be able _ reputation on something he does not seem to be able to— reputation on something he does not seem to be able to do, _ reputation on something he does not seem to be able to do, stop - reputation on something he does not seem to be able to do, stop the - seem to be able to do, stop the boats _ seem to be able to do, stop the boats the _ seem to be able to do, stop the boats. the tiniest _ seem to be able to do, stop the boats. the tiniest proportion . seem to be able to do, stop the boats. the tiniest proportion of| boats. the tiniest proportion of immigration _ boats. the tiniest proportion of immigration. net— boats. the tiniest proportion of immigration. net migration - boats. the tiniest proportion of. immigration. net migration under this government _ immigration. net migration under this government has _ immigration. net migration under this government has gone - immigration. net migration under this government has gone up - immigration. net migration under this government has gone up to. immigration. net migration under. this government has gone up to over 700,000 _ this government has gone up to over 700,000 this— this government has gone up to over 700,000 this is— this government has gone up to over 700,000. this is under— this government has gone up to over 700,000. this is under an _ this government has gone up to over 700,000. this is under an original. 700,000. this is under an original conservative — 700,000. this is under an original conservative prime _ 700,000. this is under an original conservative prime minister- 700,000. this is under an original conservative prime minister who. 700,000. this is under an original. conservative prime minister who said he wanted _ conservative prime minister who said he wanted to— conservative prime minister who said he wanted to bring _ conservative prime minister who said he wanted to bring down _ conservative prime minister who said he wanted to bring down migration . conservative prime minister who saidj he wanted to bring down migration to the tens— he wanted to bring down migration to the tens of— he wanted to bring down migration to the tens of thousands. _ he wanted to bring down migration to the tens of thousands. i— he wanted to bring down migration to the tens of thousands. i think - he wanted to bring down migration to the tens of thousands. i think the - the tens of thousands. i think the greatest — the tens of thousands. i think the greatest achievement— the tens of thousands. i think the greatest achievement for- the tens of thousands. i think the greatest achievement for the - greatest achievement for the government— greatest achievement for the government this _ greatest achievement for the government this year- greatest achievement for the government this year is - greatest achievement for the government this year is they| greatest achievement for the - government this year is they managed to get— government this year is they managed to get through — government this year is they managed to get through the _ government this year is they managed to get through the year _ government this year is they managed to get through the year with _ government this year is they managed to get through the year with just - to get through the year with just the one — to get through the year with just the one prime _ to get through the year with just the one prime minister, - to get through the year with justl the one prime minister, although to get through the year with just - the one prime minister, although of course _ the one prime minister, although of course we _ the one prime minister, although of course we still— the one prime minister, although of course we still have _ the one prime minister, although of course we still have a _ the one prime minister, although of course we still have a couple - the one prime minister, although of course we still have a couple of- course we still have a couple of weeks — course we still have a couple of weeks left _ course we still have a couple of weeks left-— course we still have a couple of weeks left. ., ~ ., . ., weeks left. you never know. who knows what _ weeks left. you never know. who knows what will _ weeks left. you never know. who knows what will happen _ weeks left. you never know. who knows what will happen in - weeks left. you never know. who knows what will happen in 2024. | knows what will happen in 2024. checking in with you in a few minutes, have a think about getting your dancing shoes on, talking about last night's strictly, not necessarily any dancing in the

studio, but you never know. for labour, it has been a year of steady progress. still ahead in the polls, and with an increasing confidence, the party is on its way back to power. a lot could happen between now and the election of course. but there are gaps in its plans, tensions ahead, and questions over how it would balance the books. wes streeting wants to be the next health secretary, and he's here this morning. welcome to the studio. let us go back to the interview with michelle mone we flee. she says she has been made a scapegoat for a wider government shambles, do you agree with that? t government shambles, do you agree with that? , _ ., �* government shambles, do you agree with that? , ., �* ~ ., with that? i must say, i don't know who thought _ with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it _ with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it was _ with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it was a _ with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it was a good - with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it was a good idea - with that? i must say, i don't know who thought it was a good idea for| who thought it was a good idea for her to do that interview, i don't think anyone watching would be shedding any tears, she lied about her own involvement in a serious contract. i recognise there is an ongoing criminal investigation, so i will be careful about what i say, but there was a fundamental point of principle here, in the midst of a deadly pandemic, when so many people rushed to help others, in all sorts

of ways, from helping their neighbours, going to work even though it was dangerous, particularly people working in the nhs, so many people who rushed to do the right thing. and there were others who saw the pandemic as an opportunity to make a quick buck at someone else's expense. our message someone else�*s expense. our message to someone else's expense. our message to those people who sought to use the pandemic to get rich quick, we want our money back. with the labour government, we will appoint a covid corruption commission are giving them the powers they need to claw back as much of the money as possible. £8 billion was lost through fraud, £15 billion in unusable ppe, taken together, it could have funded the 40 new hospitals... could have funded the 40 new hospitals- - -— could have funded the 40 new hospitals... could have funded the 40 new hositals. .. ., , hospitals... oliver dowden told us the government _ hospitals... oliver dowden told us the government are _ hospitals... oliver dowden told us the government are already - hospitals... oliver dowden told us i the government are already looking at cases of fraud, scraping money back, why do you have to invent a new commissioner? sounds a bit like you want a good headline. t

new commissioner? sounds a bit like you want a good headline.— you want a good headline. i think the government's _ you want a good headline. i think the government's response - you want a good headline. i think the government's response has i you want a good headline. i think- the government's response has been appalling, and rishi sunak should take this personally and grate it. after all, take this personally and grate it. afterall, it take this personally and grate it. after all, it is his name on those checks, he was the chancellor who was splashing the cash, and where people have been found to have been ripping off our country at a time when public services were stretched and those billions would have been better spent in the pockets of families who are struggling, they should be a much higher priority for the government, and i don't understand why they have taken such a casual approach to this, apart from the fact that we know many people who are friends and donors of the conservative party who have done quite well out of this. abs, the conservative party who have done quite well out of this. fix. tat the conservative party who have done quite well out of this.— quite well out of this. a lot of them are _ quite well out of this. a lot of them are not _ quite well out of this. a lot of them are not here _ quite well out of this. a lot of them are not here to - quite well out of this. a lot of them are not here to defend. them are not here to defend themselves, they would say they were trying to provide things at a time of national need.— trying to provide things at a time of national need. don't worry, we will find them. _ of national need. don't worry, we will find them. you _ of national need. don't worry, we will find them. you want - of national need. don't worry, we will find them. you want to - of national need. don't worry, we will find them. you want to make | of national need. don't worry, we i will find them. you want to make a

big play of these? the fact is people ripped our country off, we have to get the money back and send a signal that you do not get away with this. it also applies to other public services, money is tight in this country, the public finances are a disaster, thanks to this government, and families are really feeling the pinch this christmas, notjust feeling the pinch this christmas, not just the feeling the pinch this christmas, notjust the people in the sharpest end, but even families who thought themselves to be fairly ok, able to afford family trips out and a holiday. afford family trips out and a holida . ~ , , , ., , holiday. with rising bills and rents and mortgages — holiday. with rising bills and rents and mortgages and _ holiday. with rising bills and rents and mortgages and taxes, - holiday. with rising bills and rents and mortgages and taxes, people | holiday. with rising bills and rents . and mortgages and taxes, people are really feeling the pinch, and that is why we have a responsibility to get that money back. let's talk about the health service, then. you said every winter crisis, the nhs usesit said every winter crisis, the nhs uses it as an excuse to ask for more money. who does? nhs bosses, doctors, nurses? t money. who does? nhs bosses, doctors, nurses?— money. who does? nhs bosses, doctors, nurses? i certainly think that whenever _ doctors, nurses? i certainly think that whenever a _ doctors, nurses? i certainly think that whenever a challenge - doctors, nurses? i certainly thinkj that whenever a challenge comes along, there is always a case being

made for extra money, and i understand that. ibm;r made for extra money, and i understand that.— made for extra money, and i understand that. j ., , , understand that. by whom? this is important. — understand that. by whom? this is important. who — understand that. by whom? this is important, who are _ understand that. by whom? this is important, who are you _ understand that. by whom? this is important, who are you pointing i understand that. by whom? this is. important, who are you pointing the finger at? important, who are you pointing the fingerat? ibm;r important, who are you pointing the finer at? j ,, ., , important, who are you pointing the finaerat? j ,, . , , ., finger at? by nhs leaders, senior manauers finger at? by nhs leaders, senior managers working _ finger at? by nhs leaders, senior managers working across - finger at? by nhs leaders, senior managers working across the - finger at? by nhs leaders, senior - managers working across the system, and i understand why, i understand the pressures they are under and why there is always a case being made for additional investment, but there are two big challenges. one is because the public finances are an absolute disaster, the idea that we can come in after the next election and just turn the taps on and i will be loads of money around, that is not the case. the second challenge is this — there are plenty of examples where the nhs does not spend money as effectively as it could. every penny that we put into the nhs comes at the expense of other worthy causes, whether child poverty reduction, spending in schools, crime and policing, or putting money into the pockets of

hard—pressed families, so whether it is the £3 billion we spend on agency costs because of a lack of proper workforce planning, or the fact that because people cannot get gp appointments, despite the fact that they are providing 1 million more appointments than... let they are providing1 million more appointments than. . .— they are providing1 million more appointments than... let me finish this oint. appointments than. .. let me finish this point- i— appointments than... let me finish this point. i want _ appointments than... let me finish this point. i want to _ appointments than... let me finish this point. i want to ask _ appointments than... let me finish this point. i want to ask you - this point. i want to ask you another question. what do you think it does for nhs staff morale, nurses who have just finished a long shift and maybe put the telly on when they got home, you are saying the nhs makes excuses to ask for more money? what does that do for their morale? the reason i criticise some of the challenges is the nhs is partly to show the staff of the nhs that we have noticed what they have been telling me. i have sat in surgeries, shadowing gps, looking over their shoulder at the outdated technology they are using, and the huge number of accountability measures that tie them up in red tape, and because of that, i have said we will reform the

accountability for gps to give them more time with patients to bring back the family doctor. similarly, nurses on the wards will tell you... reform can be very expensive, but i want to ask you briefly, and we ask you this every time you come on the programme, where is your plan for social care? people in the nhs so you cannot solve the big problems until there is a coherent social care plan. until there is a coherent social care plan-— until there is a coherent social care lan. , .,, ., care plan. one in nine people are currently in _ care plan. one in nine people are currently in hospital— care plan. one in nine people are currently in hospital beds - care plan. one in nine people are currently in hospital beds when i care plan. one in nine people are . currently in hospital beds when they do not need to be, so when i was last on your programme, we said we would say things at conference, we committed to a ten—year plan for social care alongside the nhs, proper workforce planning, including new fair pay agreements, so that we can improve the pay, the career progression for care workers. but there is more to come... i will be backin there is more to come... i will be back in the new year to talk about that. we will be back in the new year to set out our long—term plan to social care. the reason i'm

taking my time on social care is because it is big, it is complicated, and we have had a total failure of bad politics over more than a decade, and i don't want to repeat those mistakes, we have got to get it right, because millions rely on good social care, i promise i will come back. ftill" rely on good social care, i promise i will come back.— i will come back. our viewers have heard you — i will come back. our viewers have heard you promise _ i will come back. our viewers have heard you promise that _ i will come back. our viewers have heard you promise that you'll - i will come back. our viewers have| heard you promise that you'll come back with that plan, we hope you bring it to us first. t’tt back with that plan, we hope you bring it to us first.— bring it to us first. i'll keep that in mind! let's go back to our main story this morning, our exclusive interview with baroness mone and her husband doug barrowman, who after repeated denials, have now apologised for lying about a ppe deal worth millions of pounds. i don't honestly see there's a case to answer. i can't see what we've done wrong. doug and the consortium have simply delivered a contract... well, it is going to be very

interesting to see the reaction to that interview, we have had interesting conversations about it interesting conversations about it in the studio, how it develops in the next few hours. i want to close our programme with something a bit more light—hearted, the strictly final last night. what is it like for you, watching it, having been in it and nearly won? ten years on! huge congratulations to the winners, if you haven't seen it, are we doing a spoiler? we are showing the pictures now! my partner, kevin clifton, five years after this, or a couple of years after this, he went on to win with stacey dooley, so it is the most magical, sparkling, fantastic experience to be involved in. it is not real life, so i have to say that any of those contestants who wake up this morning, they will

come back down to a bump, because it is like a completely different planet, where you breathe air which is sequence. d0 planet, where you breathe air which is sequence-— planet, where you breathe air which is sequence-_ l i is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been — is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked _ is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked to _ is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked to be _ is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked to be on _ is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked to be on it. - is sequence. do you ever fancy it? i have been asked to be on it. i - have been asked to be on it. i declined! _ have been asked to be on it. i declined!— have been asked to be on it. i declined!- i _ have been asked to be on it. i declined!- i like - have been asked to be on it. i l declined!- i like dancing, declined! why?! i like dancing, don't aet declined! why?! i like dancing, don't get me — declined! why?! i like dancing, don't get me wrong, _ declined! why?! i like dancing, don't get me wrong, i - declined! why?! i like dancing, don't get me wrong, i don't . declined! why?! i like dancing, i don't get me wrong, i don't know why. _ don't get me wrong, i don't know why. but— don't get me wrong, i don't know why. but i— don't get me wrong, i don't know why, but i always see there is a sort _ why, but i always see there is a sort of— why, but i always see there is a sort ofjoke _ why, but i always see there is a sort ofjoke element in this, there is always— sort ofjoke element in this, there is always the character that is going — is always the character that is going to — is always the character that is going to be getting the elbow at a very early— going to be getting the elbow at a very early stage, and ijust thought. _ very early stage, and ijust thought, i don't know if i want to id thought, i don't know if i want to go down — thought, i don't know if i want to go down that road! could you be persuaded? i am getting too old for it anyway _ persuaded? i am getting too old for it an a . ., , , ., persuaded? i am getting too old for itan a. , ., it anyway. roberts, what about you? i it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely — it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely love _ it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely love dancing, _ it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely love dancing, i - it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely love dancing, i can - it anyway. roberts, what about you? i absolutely love dancing, i can do . i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles — i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles dunne, _ i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles dunne, a _ i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles dunne, a little - i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles dunne, a little bit - i absolutely love dancing, i can do the charles dunne, a little bit of. the charles dunne, a little bit of ballroom — the charles dunne, a little bit of ballroom. that _ the charles dunne, a little bit of ballroom. that show— the charles dunne, a little bit of ballroom. that show means - the charles dunne, a little bit of ballroom. that show means so i the charles dunne, a little bit of- ballroom. that show means so much to me and _ ballroom. that show means so much to me and my— ballroom. that show means so much to me and my family. _ ballroom. that show means so much to me and my family. my— ballroom. that show means so much to me and my family, my daughter- ballroom. that show means so much to me and my family, my daughter loves i me and my family, my daughter loves it, it me and my family, my daughter loves it. it is _ me and my family, my daughter loves it, it is part— me and my family, my daughter loves it, it is part of— me and my family, my daughter loves it, it is part of our— me and my family, my daughter loves it, it is part of our lives— me and my family, my daughter loves it, it is part of our lives every- it, it is part of our lives every autumn— it, it is part of our lives every autumn season, _ it, it is part of our lives every autumn season, so _ it, it is part of our lives every autumn season, so we - it, it is part of our lives every autumn season, so we will i it, it is part of our lives every. autumn season, so we will miss it, it is part of our lives every- autumn season, so we will miss it. it autumn season, so we will miss it.

it sounds _ autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a — autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a bit _ autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a bit like _ autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a bit like you _ autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a bit like you quite - autumn season, so we will miss it. it sounds a bit like you quite fancyl it sounds a bit like you quite fancy it, there are former politicians who have done it. ed it, there are former politicians who have done it— have done it. ed balls did very well, as have done it. ed balls did very well. as you — have done it. ed balls did very well, as you reminded - have done it. ed balls did very well, as you reminded me, . have done it. ed balls did very well, as you reminded me, hej have done it. ed balls did very - well, as you reminded me, he got beyond _ well, as you reminded me, he got beyond blackpool, _ well, as you reminded me, he got beyond blackpool, so _ well, as you reminded me, he got beyond blackpool, so he - well, as you reminded me, he got beyond blackpool, so he did - well, as you reminded me, he got beyond blackpool, so he did veryl beyond blackpool, so he did very well _ beyond blackpool, so he did very well. ., beyond blackpool, so he did very well. . , ., ., ., well. that phenomenal gangnam style! what do ou well. that phenomenal gangnam style! what do you think, _ well. that phenomenal gangnam style! what do you think, robert, _ well. that phenomenal gangnam style! what do you think, robert, of - well. that phenomenal gangnam style! what do you think, robert, of nigel. what do you think, robert, of nigel farage being in thejungle? is it healthy for politicians to go off and do these celebrity things? trufett. and do these celebrity things? well, he is not a serving _ and do these celebrity things? well, he is not a serving politician, and ithink— he is not a serving politician, and i think there _ he is not a serving politician, and i think there is _ he is not a serving politician, and i think there is a _ he is not a serving politician, and i think there is a difference - he is not a serving politician, and i think there is a difference if- he is not a serving politician, and i think there is a difference if youj i think there is a difference if you are serving — i think there is a difference if you are serving in— i think there is a difference if you are serving in office. _ i think there is a difference if you are serving in office. collect- i think there is a difference if youj are serving in office. collect what about _ are serving in office. collect what aboutjohnny_ are serving in office. collect what aboutjohnny mercer? _ are serving in office. collect what about johnny mercer? he - are serving in office. collect what aboutjohnny mercer? he is - are serving in office. collect what i aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some _ aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality— aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality show. _ aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality show. that _ aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality show. that is - aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality show. that is the - aboutjohnny mercer? he is filming some reality show. that is the first| some reality show. that is the first i some reality show. that is the first i knew _ some reality show. that is the first i knew about — some reality show. that is the first i knew about that, _ some reality show. that is the first i knew about that, interesting! - some reality show. that is the first i knew about that, interesting! i. i knew about that, interesting! i think— i knew about that, interesting! i think there _ i knew about that, interesting! i think there is _ i knew about that, interesting! i think there is no _ i knew about that, interesting! i think there is no reason - i knew about that, interesting! i think there is no reason why- think there is no reason why politicians _ think there is no reason why politicians cannot _ think there is no reason why politicians cannot show - think there is no reason why politicians cannot show the i think there is no reason why- politicians cannot show the other side of— politicians cannot show the other side of life — politicians cannot show the other side of life, it — politicians cannot show the other side of life, it is _ politicians cannot show the other side of life, it is boring _ politicians cannot show the other side of life, it is boring just - side of life, it is boring just doing — side of life, it is boring just doing politics, _ side of life, it is boring just doing politics, there - side of life, it is boring just doing politics, there are . side of life, it is boring just i doing politics, there are many side of life, it is boring just - doing politics, there are many other things— doing politics, there are many other things to _ doing politics, there are many other things to enjoy— doing politics, there are many other things to enjoy in _ doing politics, there are many other things to enjoy in life, _ doing politics, there are many other things to enjoy in life, music, - things to enjoy in life, music, dance — things to enjoy in life, music, dance sport. _ things to enjoy in life, music, dance, sport, things- things to enjoy in life, music, dance, sport, things that - things to enjoy in life, music, -

dance, sport, things that probably make _ dance, sport, things that probably make me — dance, sport, things that probably make me a — dance, sport, things that probably make me a slightly— dance, sport, things that probably make me a slightly better - make me a slightly better politician _ make me a slightly better politician.— make me a slightly better olitician. �* ., ., �* , politician. and nigel farage's interview after _ politician. and nigel farage's interview after he _ politician. and nigel farage's interview after he came - politician. and nigel farage's interview after he came out i politician. and nigel farage'sl interview after he came out of politician. and nigel farage's - interview after he came out of the jungle, how did you find it? he was in combative _ jungle, how did you find it? he was in combative mode, _ jungle, how did you find it? he was in combative mode, i _ jungle, how did you find it? he was in combative mode, ijust - jungle, how did you find it? he was in combative mode, ijust wonder i jungle, how did you find it? he wasj in combative mode, ijust wonder if you think you will come back into the conservative party.— you think you will come back into the conservative party. well, that will be interesting, _ the conservative party. well, that will be interesting, nigel - the conservative party. well, that will be interesting, nigel farage i will be interesting, nigel farage and me — will be interesting, nigel farage and me in— will be interesting, nigel farage and me in the _ will be interesting, nigel farage and me in the same _ will be interesting, nigel farage and me in the same party, - will be interesting, nigel farage and me in the same party, i- will be interesting, nigel faragel and me in the same party, i can't see it _ and me in the same party, ican't see it really— and me in the same party, i can't see it really working! _ and me in the same party, i can't see it really working! 50 - see it really working! so others would leave, _ see it really working! so others would leave, you _ see it really working! so others would leave, you think? - see it really working! so others would leave, you think? well, | see it really working! so others | would leave, you think? well, it see it really working! so others . would leave, you think? well, it is m -a would leave, you think? well, it is my party and _ would leave, you think? well, it is my party and l _ would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can _ would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can cry _ would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can cry if— would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can cry if i - would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can cry if i want - would leave, you think? well, it is my party and i can cry if i want to, | my party and i can cry if i want to, he can— my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do— my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do his— my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do his own— my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do his own thing! - my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do his own thing!— my party and i can cry if i want to, he can do his own thing! thank you for bein: he can do his own thing! thank you for being with _ he can do his own thing! thank you for being with us _ he can do his own thing! thank you for being with us this _ he can do his own thing! thank you for being with us this morning, - he can do his own thing! thank you for being with us this morning, it i for being with us this morning, it has been great fun. a huge thank you to susanna, brian and robert. you can watch a longer version of our interview with michelle mone and doug barrowman on iplayer now, or listen on newscast on bbc sounds. and whether you fancy a tango, a foxtrot, orjust sitting on the sofa with a tub of quality street tonight, that is just about it from us for 2023. we will be back on 7th january with the first show of what will in all likelihood be the year of the next general election. every sunday, we'll hear from those

who want to persuade you to back them and put them to the test. in a few minutes, i'll be with paddy o'connell for sunday's newscast. there he is with a festive wave. i want to thank you warmly for watching and spending your sunday mornings with us. and as you know, every now and then, on special occasions, we like to bring you something that's just unaashamedly gorgeous. so, to say goodbye from us all, the very gorgeous singer gregory porter. here he is with do you hear what i hear? from his album, a christmas wish. i wish you a merry christmas! # said the night wind to the little lamb

# do you know what i know? # in your palace warm, mighty king # do you know what i know? # a child, a child shivers in the cold # let us bring him silver and gold # said the might king to the people everywhere # listen to what i say

# pray for peace, people, everywhere # listen to what i say # the child, the child sleeping in the night # he will bring us goodness and light # do you know what i know? # do you hear what i hear?

live from london. this is bbc news britain and germany say there is an urgent need for a sustainable ceasefire in gaza. the world health organisation says it has delivered crucial medical supplies to gaza's al shifa hospital serbians are at the polls to elect a new parliament in snap elections. the former conservative peer michelle mone has admitted she could benefit from millions of pounds of profit from protective equipment sold to the government during the pandemic. t sold to the government during the andemic. ., , ., , ., , pandemic. i was not trying to pull the wool over _ pandemic. i was not trying to pull the wool over anyone's's - pandemic. i was not trying to pull the wool over anyone's's eyes. . pandemic. i was not trying to pull the wool over anyone's's eyes. i i the wool over anyone's's eyes. i regret— the wool over anyone's's eyes. i regret and — the wool over anyone's's eyes. i regret and i_ the wool over anyone's's eyes. i regret and i am sorry for not saying straight _ regret and i am sorry for not saying straight out — regret and i am sorry for not saying straight out yes i am involved.

hello.