voice-over: this is bbc news. we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen sackur. israel's post 7 october assault on gaza continues unabated and it appears to command the overwhelming support of the israeli public. but one of the roughly 2 million civilians who are arab israelis, many with family in gaza or in the occupied west bank. my guest is aida touma—sliman, a palestinian arab member of the israeli parliament. what does this wall mean for the lives and the futures of israel's arab minority?

aida touma—sliman in jerusalem, welcome aida touma—sliman injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. aida touma-sliman in jerusalem, welcome to hardtalk.— aida touma-sliman in jerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it is a pleasure _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it is a pleasure to _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it is a pleasure to have _ welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it is a pleasure to have you - welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it is a pleasure to have you on - it is a pleasure to have you on the show. we ask you a simple first question, how much has changed for you and for your community in israel since 7 october?— community in israel since 7 october? oh, you can think about it in _ october? oh, you can think about it in this _ october? oh, you can think about it in this way. - october? oh, you can think about it in this way. there i october? oh, you can think. about it in this way. there was about it in this way. there was a life, that is not so easy before 7 october, but now it is

unbearable after 7 october. we were thinking that our main struggle would be for peace, until the occupation of our own people in the west bank and gaza and struggling for our own rights to be equal citizens, and to have a quality and to be able to develop our community in an equal way like thejewish community in israel. after 7 october, although before that we felt racism, after 7 october we felt racism, after 7 october we feel really threatened. we feel terrorised also on the establishment level from ministers and policies led by the government, and from the general public. we became

suddenly as if terrorists and potential... i suddenly as if terrorists and potential. . ._ suddenly as if terrorists and potential... i want to talk at lenath potential... i want to talk at length about _ potential... i want to talk at length about that. - potential... i want to talk at length about that. but - potential... i want to talk at length about that. but let . potential... i want to talk at| length about that. but let us just focus for now if we can on, we are using this date 7 october, what we mean by that is the murderous assault by hamas on southern israel which left more than 1200 people, women, children, men, murdered, dead. when you heard the news on that day, did you anticipate the scale of trauma, shock, grief, anger that was going to sweep across israel and continues to this very day to sweep across israel?- sweep across israel? no, i don't think— sweep across israel? no, i don't think that _ sweep across israel? no, i don't think that anybody i don't think that anybody anticipated the amount of grief, because nobody anticipated also the huge trauma that would be created from the killing and from the fact that there are

civilians... who became victims of this assault, or the kidnap and hostages who are in gaza, part of them until today. in the beginning we understood that something is going on, and as you know until the evening we started to realise how big theissue we started to realise how big the issue is, and how much people are involved in that... didn't feel like an attack on you? i am very that amongst all of the victims there were, according to haaretz numbers, there were 2a arab citizens, i9 bedouin arab citizens —— citizens murdered, others that were taken hostage as well. you are a citizen of israel— didn't feel like an on you? —— did it feel like an on you? —— did it feel like an attack on you? it felt like a chaotic situation,

but there is nobody can feel safe if we were in that area. i am living in the north, and i wasn't so close, but of course evenif wasn't so close, but of course even if i wasn't threatened, meaning the sorrow and the pain was there, existing, just in hearing the stories about children who are killed or women. it doesn't have to be arabs or palestinians orjews in order to feel the pain. you need only to be human in order to feel that.— to feel that. that is i guess what i am _ to feel that. that is i guess what i am driving _ to feel that. that is i guess what i am driving that. - to feel that. that is i guess what i am driving that. i i what i am driving that. i wonder whether when netanyahu wonder whether when neta nyahu and the wonder whether when netanyahu and the israeli government made it an absolute determination to" destroy hamas, whether you as somebody who is identifying themselves as a palestinian israeli citizen, whether you totally shared that belief, that was legitimate, the white

—— right response from israel, to destroy the people who had done this?— done this? first of all i don't believe any _ done this? first of all i don't believe any military - done this? first of all i don't believe any military action . done this? first of all i don't i believe any military action can bring us closer to solve the problem in any way, or to hold people accountable.— problem in any way, or to hold people accountable. really? you don't believe _ people accountable. really? you don't believe that _ people accountable. really? you don't believe that having - don't believe that having murdered all these people in your country, you don't believe that israel has a right to seek to destroy those who committed this act? ,, , , ., this act? stephen, there is an attem -t this act? stephen, there is an attempt always _ this act? stephen, there is an attempt always to _ this act? stephen, there is an attempt always to talk - this act? stephen, there is an attempt always to talk aboutl this act? stephen, there is an| attempt always to talk about 7 october as if it is the beginning of everything. it was horrible, it was painful, and we feel sorry for it, but it is not the beginning. it didn't happen in a vacuum. it didn't happen in a vacuum. it didn't happenjust because a happen in a vacuum. it didn't happen just because a bunch of crazy people just wanted to slaughter other people. we have, although i do not feel in any way that i can legitimise

the killing of children and women and civilians, i was always against that, but i am against killing civilians in both sides. not only on the side that i am a citizen of. not only the israeli children, but also the gaza children. and from the first day, we understood that it is going to be a vicious war, that it is going to be a bloody war and it is not only, you understand in one week, you reach thousands of civilians, 60% to today are women and children, either understand it is not an issue of only attacking hamas. there are people who are involved in this war, there are people who are killed, there are people who are injured, there are children who are thirsty and starving now in gaza.- children who are thirsty and starving now in gaza. there are indeed, thousands _

starving now in gaza. there are indeed, thousands of _ starving now in gaza. there are indeed, thousands of children | indeed, thousands of children who have been killed in gaza, thousands of women, the latest death toll from the "hamas run" health ministry goes to 22,000 people in gaza. but again, i come to... people in gaza. but again, i come ton-— people in gaza. but again, i come to... �* ., ., come to... and there are more under the _ come to... and there are more under the rubble. _ come to... and there are more under the rubble. we - come to... and there are more under the rubble. we don't - come to... and there are more l under the rubble. we don't know but there are _ under the rubble. we don't know but there are many _ under the rubble. we don't know but there are many people - under the rubble. we don't know but there are many people who l but there are many people who believe the death toll will run much higher. but again, i am mindful of you and your position. you are from a christian arab background, you are a citizen of the state of israel, you are a self—described communist, i cannot really think of any arab person who would be further removed from the ideology of hamas. what we have is an israeli government who says if strategic objective is to destroy what they call a terror organisation, which threatens every single day the security of israel's citizens. i'm trying to figure out whether you think that is legitimate or not. i you think that is legitimate or not. ~ ., you think that is legitimate or

not. ~ . ., not. i think that what we need now is not _ not. i think that what we need now is not to _ not. i think that what we need now is not to react _ not. i think that what we need now is not to react on - not. i think that what we need now is not to react on the - now is not to react on the things that are marketed by netanyahu to the west, but also to look at what is happening on the ground. what is happening on the ground is not fighting only hamas, it is an attack on the palestinian people in gaza, and it is also on the west bank. we cannot isolate herself and only say phrases and tried to relate to them without any context, without any reality that we are living every day. crosstalk what is so fascinating... just a minute please. many --eole just a minute please. many peeple over _ just a minute please. many people over the _ just a minute please. many people over the last - just a minute please. many people over the last few i just a minute please. many - people over the last few months have been thinking a great deal about the situation of the palestinians in gaza, they also perhaps have been thinking about what it means for the

continued military occupation of palestinian territories in the west bank. but you are in a different position because throughout your life, you have lived as a citizen of israel. i'm just trying to understand right now whether you feel as a tel aviv university survey says many arab citizens of israel feel right now, which is an actual increased identification with the state of israel as a result of what has happened? 33% according to this survey finds that they are first and foremost feeling like israelis, which edges higher than their arab identity and much higher than any of them saying they are first identifying as palestinian. where are you right now?— palestinian. where are you riaht now? , ., ., ., right now? first of all i would like to say — right now? first of all i would like to say that _ right now? first of all i would like to say that surveys - right now? first of all i would like to say that surveys are i like to say that surveys are fine but when they are run under a traumatised and terrorised and silenced

society, i do not take all the results as guaranteed, because when you are silenced, when you understand that any "wrong" word you are going to say that don't agree with the establishment, you will be harassed, you might be also arrested or dismissed from work, you will give any answer that satisfies the general public. that is first of all, meaning i am, i have lived all my life as a citizen of israel, i lived all my life also, and i was born as a palestinian. this is part of my identity that i cannot and will never ignore. part of the story of my life and the things that i have been struggling for our coming from the complication in those two

identities, when they are becoming confronting each other. meaning being a citizen of israel, the same state that is occupying my own people on the west bank and gaza. i think that brings me into a unique situation of someone who sees both sides. someone who understands that there is no way to think that one side is going to finish the other side, and that there is a possibility to continue to live, but when both sides are getting their rights. when both sides are living safely. taste rights. when both sides are living safely.— rights. when both sides are living safely. we will get into ossible living safely. we will get into possible long-term - living safely. we will get into | possible long-term solutions, possible long—term solutions, all of that discussion of the day after the end of the war in a minute but i want to pick up on something you said earlier about a post 7 october rise intentions and difficulties for

arab citizens of israel. one influential arab israeli analyst, the director of strategy at the centre for a shared society said "we are seeing the rise of a kind of mccarthyism", by which he means a very structured sort of distrust, persecution of israeli arabs. do you feel that? i israeli arabs. do you feel that? ., �* ~ ., that? i don't know when he has said that. _ that? i don't know when he has said that, when _ that? i don't know when he has said that, when he _ that? i don't know when he has said that, when he says - that? i don't know when he has said that, when he says the - said that, when he says the rise of mccarthyism, i tell you we are living under mccarthyism these days. he we are living under mccarthyism these days— we are living under mccarthyism these days-— these days. he meant it has become much _ these days. he meant it has become much more - these days. he meant it has - become much more pronounced since 7 october. oi become much more pronounced since 7 october.— since 7 october. of course, of course, since 7 october. of course, of course. and — since 7 october. of course, of course, and you _ since 7 october. of course, of course, and you can _ since 7 october. of course, of course, and you can see - since 7 october. of course, of course, and you can see thatl course, and you can see that happening in universities, in the parliament itself, when i was suspended for two months because of quoting testimonies from al—shifa hospital on the x

platform, and you know that the demonstrations or protest actions are banned totally by the police, when you understand about students are persecuted and, and complained against in the police, arrested, because they have published words of sympathy towards guards and children. or because —— children. or because —— children in gaza. because they expressed their position against the wall. so you can understand that mccarthyism is existing. when you are punished for your political views and the margins of freedom of speech is getting not only

narrow but vanishing almost. crosstalk but we understood the level of trauma inside israel. i wonder whether it was wise and responsible for you again at a citizen, for example, as he referred to your tweet, your social media use on x, what you actually accused the israeli government of, by echoing a report that had been on the media, you accuse them of using white phosphorus in gaza... i didn't accuse them of anything, i brought testimonies, and i don't understand... crosstalk stephen. stephen! stehen. stehen! ~ stephen. stephen! white phosphorus. _ stephen. stephen! white phosphorus, which - stephen. stephen! white phosphorus, which your i stephen. stephen! white i phosphorus, which your own knesset described was unacceptable. what do you mean my own can knesset described that was unacceptable? crosstalk they decided you should be punished.

they decided you should be punished-— they decided you should be unished. . , . punished. yeah, they decided this is part — punished. yeah, they decided this is part of _ punished. yeah, they decided this is part of mccarthyism. . this is part of mccarthyism. when other members of parliament are deciding for me what can be said and what cannot be said when i'm a parliamentarian, i have immunity — parliamentarian immunity — parliamentarian immunity — parliamentarian immunity — to give me a space to speak up. and now it's taken from me by this decision by members of parliament who are on the other side of the political map. this is democracy? sorry — i was elected in order to speak out what i believe in. i believe that military actions cannot be any solution for political problem, and i've said that — that's why i'm against the war. i'm against getting civilians involved in a blood cycle, and i will speak out every time if

they are israelis or if they are palestinians. so i think that the knesset is not a school that take tell me what i can say and what cannot be said. i'm supposed to do my duty in order to warn that there are things not to be done, and they are not going to bring any security — neither for the palestinians or many for the palestinians or many for the palestinians or many for the israelis in their names. for the israelis in their names-— for the israelis in their names. ~ .. names. do you think you owe the israeli state _ names. do you think you owe the israeli state anything _ names. do you think you owe the israeli state anything in _ names. do you think you owe the israeli state anything in terms - israeli state anything in terms of loyal ty, israeli state anything in terms of loyalty, obligations to peaceable behaviour? in the past, you've referred to "lion's den gunmen" in nablus, who have attacked israeli military personnel and jewish settlers. you've referred to them as "martyrs". you

currently... them as "martyrs". you currently. . ._ them as "martyrs". you currently... this is not - stephen... _ currently... this is not - stephen... ..the - currently... this is not - i stephen... ..the apartheid currently... this is not - - stephen... ..the apartheid era for treatment _ stephen... ..the apartheid era for treatment of _ stephen... ..the apartheid era for treatment of your _ stephen... ..the apartheid era for treatment of your israeli. for treatment of your israeli arab communities inside israel. all of this language makes me wonder whether you feel any sort of obligation or loyalty to israel. sort of obligation or loyalty to israel-— sort of obligation or loyalty to israel. �* , . , , . to israel. i'm very happy that ou did to israel. i'm very happy that you did your— to israel. i'm very happy that you did your homework, - to israel. i'm very happy that you did your homework, but| to israel. i'm very happy that - you did your homework, but your problem is that you only read the israeli official and right—wing, racist narrative about me. which is very strange for me. i would expect, also, to say that when i related to what i related — you said people who were killing and attacking and etc — those were five young men who were killed in their homes in nablus. mmm. b the in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army- _ in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army. this _ in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army. this is _ in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army. this is first - in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army. this is first of - by the army. this is first of all. second, you are already

judging me for saying israel is practising a kind of apartheid. i would like you to relate to the fact that, first of all, in all of nine years of working in the parliament, i worked for all people in an equal approach — not like this fascist government that we have now in israel that is only meant to work for the settlers and for the jewish society work for the settlers and for thejewish society — not seeing us as equal citizens. when i promoted laws in the knesset — believe me, i managed to legislate a lot, and i was heading, chairing, the committee for will —— equality for women and promoting the status of women. i worked for all women in israel. so i'm not

the one to be blamed of racist approaches. iii the one to be blamed of racist approaches-— the one to be blamed of racist approaches. ifi may, aida, you make a very — approaches. ifi may, aida, you make a very valid _ approaches. ifi may, aida, you make a very valid point. - approaches. ifi may, aida, you make a very valid point. and i approaches. ifi may, aida, you make a very valid point. and as part of my "homework", i absolutely saw that you have had a tradition of working across party lines. you've worked on gender—related legislation with some unlikely allies, including members of the orthodox religious political groupings, including settler—oriented political groupings. you've done that on specific issues. so my question for you right now is — as an israeli arab member of knesset, are you now seeking to forge alliances with members of the knesset to bring down the netanyahu government? in 2021, israeli arab mps were very influential in bringing netanyahu's government at the time to an end. are you seeking to be part of such an alliance now? i to be part of such an alliance now? ., ., ,~ ., ,

now? i have to say very clearly that we have _ now? i have to say very clearly that we have always _ now? i have to say very clearly that we have always warned i now? i have to say very clearly | that we have always warned the public from netanyahu being our prime minister. we always went against him as a prime minister. we believe that he is bringing, in his policies and in his ideology, disasters. and we believe that it's better that he finish his position not today, not tomorrow, but yesterday. and any attempts to make this government fall down, we will be for sure part of it. this is very well—known, our position — especially that we are — me and my colleagues — are — me and my colleagues — are a part of the onlyjewish arab palestinian party in israel, and we are the only ones who are very clear in our policy against occupation,

against war, and against damaging or hurting any civilians.— damaging or hurting any civilians. �* , �* , civilians. but isn't the very difficult truth _ civilians. but isn't the very difficult truth for _ civilians. but isn't the very difficult truth for you, - civilians. but isn't the very difficult truth for you, as l civilians. but isn't the very difficult truth for you, as a j difficult truth for you, as a long—term believer that the only solution for these two peoples — israelis and palestinians, who share this small land between thejordan river and the mediterranean sea — you've been a long—time believer that a two—state solution is the only pathway to a lasting peace. that is more unlikely than ever? indeed — you don't like surveys, but surveys since october 7 show that both palestinians and israelis have less faith than ever before in the possibility of a two—state solution. ever before in the possibility of a two-state solution. well, i have to _ of a two-state solution. well, i have to say. _ of a two-state solution. well, i have to say, stephen, - of a two-state solution. well, i have to say, stephen, that l i have to say, stephen, that political solutions are created by leadership, and not by polls. whenever people on both sides felt that there is a hope for a secure and peaceful life

and prosperity, they tended to agree immediately. look at what was the polls before oslo and after oslo — although now we understand that it wasn't the best agreement ever. but i believe that the reality of creating two—state solution is a matter of something that we should be dealing now by stopping this bloody war. because the day everybody attempts to think what you think about the day after, what kind of solution can be created - i kind of solution can be created — i believe that the day after is designed today. if the world continues to be silent and is not really active in stopping this war, then the world is helping liquidate any possibility for creating a palestinian state alongside the

state of israel, the two—state solution. we have — and i think the world should act immediately — in order to look for the farfuture and immediately — in order to look for the far future and to think — what kind of life do we want for this region? if we are thinking of two—state solution, then let's start acting now. aida touma—sliman, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from jerusalem. thank you. hardtalk from jerusalem. thank ou. . ~' hardtalk from jerusalem. thank ou. . ~ , .. hello there. we're only a few days into the new month, but already, some spots in eastern england have

seen more than half their averagejanuary rainfall. and there's potentially more wet weather to come too in the forecast before things tend to settle down into the weekend, and it will turn drier. but plenty of flood alerts, flood warnings still in place. keep up to date with those on the bbc weather website, and of course, on your local bbc radio station too. now, this is the pressure chart for thursday — low pressure still centred out towards the northwest of scotland. still a brisk southeasterly wind with more rain for the northern isles, and some more rain heading towards the south of england too. more on that in just a moment. temperatures to start off thursday morning above freezing — 4—7 celsius north to south. there'll be more showers across the far north of scotland into the northern isles, also for western scotland, with a few showers heading across northern ireland into northwest england. more sunshine further south, there'll be more showers across the far north of scotland into the northern isles, also for western scotland, with a few showers heading across northern ireland into northwest england. more sunshine further south, but it's this area of rain that is of most concern. it will be falling on pretty saturated ground, and that band of rain will be pushing further northwards as we head through the afternoon. this is how we'll end the afternoon,

between around 7—10 celsius. that rain set to push further northward. still some debate as to how far north it will eventually get, but it's likely to bring us some strong, gusty winds towards the south coast as it curls off towards east anglia — of course, all unhelpfully timed with the evening rush hour, so do expect more problems, particularly where we've seen the recent flooding. but friday is happily a much quieter day of weather, that low pressure starts to move away. we've still got a legacy of cloud and some rain towards eastern coastal areas as we head through friday morning. there'll still be some showers too across parts of aberdeenshire, heading towards the northern isles, and a good scattering of showers out towards those western coasts, but plenty of sunshine around. the winds will be lighter, and the temperatures will be a little lower too — 6—9 celsius. and then, as we head through the weekend, the high pressure starts to build in. it will become quite firmly established across the uk, and should stick around into next week, but of course, as the jet stream dips southwards, we're also going be drawing in much colder—feeling air, so there will be

a drop in temperature. so feeling colder, turning dry, though, with some frost and fog through the mornings. bye—bye for now.

live from london, this is bbc news. a day or mourning in iran after two explosions in the southeast of the country kill nearly a hundred people. the funeral will take place in lebanon of the deputy leader of hamas killed in a drone strike in beirut. a us court releases hundreds of documents from a legal case, naming people connected to the late convicted sex—offenderjeffrey epstein. hello. i'm sally bundock. we start in iran, which is holding a day of mourning for the nearly 100 people killed in two explosions in the southeastern city of kerman, which have further raised tension

in the middle east. the blasts came as hundreds of iranians gathered to mark