voice-over: this is bbc news. we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. israel's post—october 7th assault on gaza continues unabated, and it appears to command the overwhelming support of the israeli public. but what of the roughly two million civilians who are arab israelis, many with family in gaza or in the occupied west bank. my guest is aida touma—sliman, a palestinian arab member of the israeli parliament. what does this war mean for the lives and the futures of israel's arab minority?

aida touma—sliman injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, thank you, stephen. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. let me ask you a simple first question — how much has changed for you and for your community in israel since october the 7th? oh, you can think about it in this way. there was a life, that is not so easy before october 7th, but now it is unbearable after october 7th.

we were thinking that our main struggle would be for peace, and the occupation of our own people in the west bank and gaza, and struggling for our rights to be equal citizens, and to have equality and to be able to develop our community in an equal way like thejewish community in israel. after october 7th, although before that we felt racism, after 7th october, we feel really threatened. we feel terrorised also on the establishment level from ministers and policies led by the government, and from the general public. we became suddenly as if terrorists in potential. i want to talk

at length about that. but let us just focus for now if we can on — well, we're using this date, october 7th — what we mean by that is the murderous assault by hamas on southern israel which left more than 1,200 people, women, children, men, murdered, dead. when you heard the news on that day, did you anticipate the scale of trauma, shock, grief, anger that was going to sweep across israel and continues to this very day to sweep across israel? no, i don't think that anybody anticipated the amount of grief, because nobody anticipated also the huge trauma that would be created from the killing and from the fact that there are civilians... who became victims of this assault,

or the kidnapped and hostages who are in gaza, part of them until today. in the beginning, we understood that something is going on, and as you know until the evening we started to realise how big the issue is, and how much people are involved in that... did it feel, if i may, like an attack on you? i'm very mindful that amongst all of the victims there were, according to haaretz�*s numbers, there were 2a arab citizens murdered, i9 bedouin arabs amongst them. that's true. at least nine bedouin arabs were taken hostage at that time as well. you are a citizen of israel — did it feel like an attack on you? it felt like a chaotic situation, but there is nobody can feel safe if we

were in that area. i'm living in the north, and i wasn't so close, but of course, even if i wasn't threatened, meaning the sorrow and the pain was there, existing, just in hearing the stories about children who are killed, or women. it doesn't have to be arabs or palestinians orjews in order to feel the pain. yes... you need only to be human in order to feel that. that's i guess what i'm driving that. i wonder whether when netanyahu and the israeli government made it an absolute determination to "destroy hamas", whether you, as somebody who is identifying themselves as a palestinian israeli citizen, whether you totally shared that belief — that was that legitimate, the right response from israel, to seek to eliminate, destroy the people who'd done this?

first of all, i don't believe that any military action can bring us closer to solve the problem in any way, or to hold anybody accountable. really? you don't believe that having murdered all these people in your country, you don't believe that israel has a right to seek to destroy those who committed this act? stephen, there's an attempt always to talk about october 7th as if it is the beginning of everything. it was horrible, it was painful, and we feel sorry for it, but it is not the beginning. it didn't happen in a vacuum. it didn't happen just because bunch of crazy people just wanted to slaughter other people. we have... although i do not feel in any way that i can legitimise the killing of children and women and civilians — i was always against that —

but i am against killing civilians in both sides. not only on the side that i'm citizen of. not only the israeli children, but also the gazan children. and from the first day, we understood that it's going to be a vicious war, that it's going to be a bloody war and it is not only.. you understand in one week, you reach thousands of civilians — 60% till today are women and children — you understand it's not an issue of only attacking hamas. there are people who are involved in this war, there are people who are killed, there are people who are injured, there are children who are thirsty and starving now in gaza. there are indeed, thousands of children who have been killed in gaza, thousands of women,

the latest death toll from the hamas—run health ministry goes to 22,000 people in gaza. but again, i come back to... and there are more under the rubble. we don't know. but there are many people who believe the death toll will run much higher. but again, i'm mindful of you and your position. you are from a christian—arab background, you are a citizen of the state of israel, you are a self—described communist. i cannot really think of any arab person who would be further removed from the ideology of hamas. what we have is an israeli government which says its strategic objective is to destroy what they call a terror organisation, which threatens every single day the security of israel's citizens. i'm just trying to figure out whether you think that is legitimate or not. i think that what we need now is not to react on the things

that are marketed by netanyahu to the west, but also to look at what is happening on the ground. what is happening on the ground is not fighting only hamas, it is an attack on the palestinian people in gaza, and it's also on the west bank. we cannot isolate ourself and only take phrases and try to relate to them without any context, without any reality that we are living every day. but what's so fascinating... just a minute, please. if i may, aida, many people over the last few months have been thinking a great deal about the situation of the palestinians in gaza. they'll also perhaps have been thinking about what it means for the continued military occupation of palestinian territories in the west bank. but you're in a different

position because you, throughout your life, have lived as a citizen of israel. i'm just trying to understand right now whether you feel, as a tel aviv university survey says many arab citizens of israel feel right now, which is an actual increased identification with the state of israel as a result of what has happened? 33%, according to this survey, find that they are first and foremost feeling like israelis, which edges higher than their arab identity and much higher than any of them saying that their first identity is palestinian. where are you right now? well, first of all, i would like to say that surveys are fine, but when they are run under a traumatised and terrorised and silenced society, i do not take all the results as guaranteed, because when you are silenced,

when you understand that any "wrong" word you are going to say that don't agree with the establishment, you will be harassed, you might be also arrested or dismissed from work, you will give any answer that satisfies the general public. that's first of all, meaning i am... i lived all my life as a citizen of israel, i lived all my life also, and i was born as a palestinian. this is part of my identity that i cannot and will never ignore. part of the story of my life, and the things that i've been struggling for are coming from the complication in those two identities when they are confronting each other.

meaning being a citizen of israel, the same state that is occupying my own people on the west bank and gaza, i think that brings me into a unique situation of someone who sees both sides. you said... someone who understands that there is no way to think that one side is going to finish the other side, and that there is a possibility to continue to live, but when both sides are getting their rights, when both sides are living safely. we'll get into possible long—term solutions, all of that discussion of the day after the end of the war in a minute, but i want to pick up on something you said earlier about a post—october 7 rise in inter—communal tensions and difficulties for arab citizens of israel.

one influential arab israeli analyst, mohammad darawshe, who's the director of strategy at givat haviva, the centre for a shared society, said, "we are seeing the rise of a kind of mccarthyism", by which he means a very structured sort of distrust, persecution of israeli arabs. do you feel that? i don't know when mohammad has said that, when he said "rise" of mccarthyism, i'm telling you we are living under mccarthyism these days. he meant it has become much more pronounced since october 7. yes, of course, of course, and you can see that happening in universities, in the parliament itself, when i was suspended for two months because of quoting testimonies from al—shifa hospital on x platform. and of course, when you know

that the demonstrations or protest actions are banned totally by the police, when you understand that students are persecuted and complained against in the police, arrested because they have published words of sympathy towards gazan children, or because they expressed their position against the war. so, you can understand that mccarthyism is existing when you are punished for your political views and the margins of freedom of speech is getting not only narrow, but vanishing almost. yeah, but we did discuss the level of trauma inside israel.

i just wonder whether it was wise and responsible for you — again, as a citizen, for example, as you referred to your tweets, your social media use on x — what you actually accused the israeli government of, by echoing a report that had been on the media, you accused them of using white phosphorus in gaza... i didn't accuse them of anything, i brought testimonies. and i don't understand, i'm a politician... crosstalk. you repeated a media report which referred to the use of phosphorus... stephen. stephen! ..which your own knesset described was unacceptable and that's why you were sanctioned. what do you mean "my own knesset" decided that it's unacceptable? well, a committee sat in judgement of you and they decided you should be punished. yeah, they decided — this is part of mccarthyism. when other members of parliament are deciding for me

what can be said and what cannot be said when i'm a parliamentarian, i have immunity — parliamentarian immunity — to give me a space to speak up. and now it's taken from me by this decision by members of parliament who are on the other side of the political map. this is democracy? sorry, i was elected in order to speak out what i believe in. i believe that military actions cannot be any solution for political problem, and i've said that — that's why i'm against the war. i'm against getting civilians involved in a blood cycle, and i will speak out every time if they are israelis or if they are palestinians. so, i think that the knesset is not a school that they can tell me what i can say and what cannot be said. i'm supposed to do my duty

in order to warn that there are things not to be done, and they are not going to bring any security — neither for the palestinians or many for the israelis in their names. do you think you owe the israeli state anything in terms of loyalty, obligations to peaceable behaviour? in the past, you've referred to "lion's den gunmen" in nablus, who have attacked israeli military personnel and jewish settlers. you've referred to them as "martyrs". you currently... this is not true, stephen... ..the apartheid era for treatment of your israeli arab communities inside israel.

all of this language makes me wonder whether you feel any sort of obligation or loyalty to israel. i'm very happy that you did your homework, but your problem is that you only read the israeli official and right—wing, racist narrative about me, which is very strange for me. i would expect, also, to say that when i related to what i related — you said people who were killing and attacking and etc — those were five young men who were killed in their homes in nablus. mmm. by the army. this is first of all. second, you are already judging me for saying israel is practising a kind of apartheid.

i would like you to relate to the fact that, first of all, in all of nine years of working in the parliament, i worked for all people in an equal approach — not like this fascist government that we have now in israel that is only meant to work for the settlers and for thejewish society — not seeing us as equal citizens. when i promoted laws in the knesset — believe me, i managed to legislate a lot, and i was heading, chairing, the committee for equality for women and promoting the status of women. i worked for all women in israel. so i'm not the one to be blamed of racist approaches. crosstalk if i may, aida, you make a very valid point. and as part of my "homework", i absolutely saw that you have

had a tradition of working across party lines. you've worked on gender—related legislation with some unlikely allies, including members of the orthodox religious political groupings, including settler—oriented political groupings. you've done that on specific issues. so, my question for you right now is — as an israeli arab member of knesset, are you now seeking to forge alliances with members of the knesset to bring down the netanyahu government? in 2021, israeli arab mps were very influential in bringing netanyahu's government at the time to an end. are you seeking to be part of such an alliance now? i have to say very clearly that we have always warned the public from netanyahu being our prime minister. we always went against him as a prime minister.

we believe that he is bringing, in his policies and in his ideology, disasters. and we believe that it's better that he finish his position not today, not tomorrow, but yesterday. and any attempts to make this government fall down, we will be for sure part of it. this is very well—known, our position, especially that we are — me and my colleagues — are a part of the only jewish—arab—palestinian party in israel, and we are the only ones who are very clear in our policy against occupation, against war, and against damaging or hurting any civilians. but isn't the very difficult

truth for you, as a long—term believer that the only solution for these two peoples — israelis and palestinians, who share this small land between thejordan river and the mediterranean sea — you've been a long—time believer that a two—state solution is the only pathway to a lasting peace. that is more unlikely than ever? indeed — you don't like surveys, but surveys since october 7 show that both palestinians and israelis have less faith than ever before in the possibility of a two—state solution. well, i have to say, stephen, that political solutions are created by leadership, and not by polls. whenever people on both sides felt that there is a hope for a secure and peaceful life and prosperity, they tended to agree immediately. look at what was the polls

before oslo and after oslo, although now we understand that it wasn't the best agreement ever. but i believe that the reality of creating two—state solution is a matter of something that we should be dealing now by stopping this bloody war. because the day everybody attempts to ask what you think about the day after, what kind of solution can be created. and i believe that the day after is designed today. if the world continues to be silent and is not really active in stopping this war, then the world is helping liquidate any possibility for creating a palestinian state alongside the state of israel, the two—state solution. we have — and i think the world should act immediately — in order to look for the far future and to think — what kind of life we want for this region?

if we are thinking of two—state solution, then let's start acting now. aida touma—sliman, i thank you very much forjoining me if we are thinking of two—state solution, then let's start acting now. aida touma—sliman, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from jerusalem. thank you. hello. after the exceptional rainfall and the significant flooding of the last few days, you may well be pleased to hear

that the weather is set to change. the next few days will be drier, yes, also colder, but i'm sure some lower temperatures will be a small price to pay for less in the way of rain. we certainly saw some rain on thursday in the south of the uk, thanks to this hook of cloud. that's an area of low pressure still close by for the first part of friday morning, still bringing some rain across eastern parts of england. we've also still got some showery rain from this weather system, centred across the north of scotland. so, as we head through the morning on friday, yes, still a little bit of rain across eastern england, quite a brisk wind, as well. still windy for the northern isles, and generally cloud and some showery rain across the northeast of scotland. further west, though, some brighter skies, some spells of sunshine and, while there will be some showers, there probably won't be too many, and a decent amount of dry weather. those temperatures a touch lower than they have been — 6 degrees for aberdeen,

nine for cardiff, for plymouth, maybe 10 for the channel islands. and then, as we head through friday night, we'll keep some quite large amounts of cloud, especially across the eastern half of the uk, with some showery rain. drier out west with some clear spells and just one or two showers. that will give rise to some fog patches and a touch of frost for some. temperatures across parts of northern england, scotland, northern ireland are likely to drop below freezing. so, frost and fog to start the day for some of us on saturday. quite a lot of cloud across the eastern half of england. that will break up to some extent, and i think we will see some spells of sunshine. just one or two showers here and there, but a much drier story than we've been used to. temperatures coming down again, 5—9 celsius at best. through saturday nights, the last remnants of this weather system really clearing away, as high pressure builds more strongly across the uk. that will set us up actually for the forecast for next week and certainly on sunday, we're looking at a lot of dry weather. some early mist and fog, touch of frost in places, but some spells of sunshine. small chance of one or two showers maybe across northeast scotland, also grazing the southeast of england and the channel islands. and it certainly will be a colder—feeling day, 3—7 degrees. and actually, into the start of the new week,

the winds will really pick up across the south, so that will add to what will be a really cold feel to the weather. but it'll be a mostly dry week ahead, some spells of sunshine with some frost and some fog at night.

live from london,

this is bbc news. israel's defence minister outlines proposals for the future of gaza, once the war against hamas is over. more than ten years after killing his girlfriend, the disgraced paralympian oscar pistorius is due to be released on parole. this is the prison near pretoria from which he'll be released after serving around half his sentence. flooding in parts of england and wales continues to cause disruption, forcing hundreds to leave their homes. and return of the king. how a digital version of elvis presley is making a rock—and—roll comeback. hello, i'm tadhg enright. we begin this hour

in the middle east, where israel's defence minister has been outlining his plans