george w bush's hometown in texas. george bush has got to go! in 2016, he placed ghostly platoons of young soldiers in public spaces across the uk to commemorate the battle of the somme. in this episode of this cultural life, the radio 4 programme, he reveals his formative influences and experiences, and how he aims to take art beyond its conventional forms. i'm trying to sort of see what the limits are of art. i'm quite interested in seeing how far you can push art into everyday life, but also into other areas as well.

jeremy deller, welcome to this cultural life. thank you. you were brought up in dulwich in south london. what are your earliest cultural memories of home? home... well, church, actually. there's culture in church. yeah. there's a human culture, there's people, and then there's music and there's visuals and smells and so on. so, the church, maybe early on as a child, is something i remember. i remember seeing help, the beatles film, very early on. i remember telling my mother i'd just discovered these four men who live in the same house as each other, which was very much like the house we lived in. and i was amazed. then she told me, "oh, actually, i know those people. "that's the beatles and they're not around any more." that was your introduction to the beatles? yeah, and i was very sad. i remember being very sad about it, thinking that they didn't live together properly and it was actually...

they weren't around. so help was a big influence on me, and television in general, i think. i'd watch tonnes of telly and, i mean, istill do, but that was something that was very important for me. so your parents, were they artistic? erm, not, not massively, no. but my father was interested in art and taking me to museums and art galleries. so that was something that, from an early age, i wasn't really kicking a ball around or that sort of thing. i was going to the imperial war museum, the horniman's museum, places like that, the natural history museum, cos if you live in london, you have that on your doorstep, almost literally. so that was something that was very important to me. all sorts of museums, then, all sorts of subjects. so it wasn't just the paintings, it wasn't just the art? well, ifanything, paintings came later cos you're looking at objects and, as a child, you want to look at objects. you want to look at, er, african masks or animals in pickle jars, and just stuffed animals. but ijust liked the acoustics of museums, the grandness,

the occasion of going to one. so it's something i've always loved. and that, it's always stayed with me. you went to dulwich college, a prestigious public school, one with a good art department, i presume? well, not for me, but it might have been for other people. but it was a very traditional school and run along very traditional lines. and so the art department, likewise, was a reflection of the ethos of the school. and so i didn't really... get on with the... it's quite amazing how you can, a teacher can take against you or you can take against a teacher. and so we were not... we didn't see eye—to—eye. even as an 11—year—old, you realise it's not going to work. a particular teacher? yes. just because he his view of art was very specific, and of drawing. it was all about precision. and i couldn't do that. and so that was... i was out, basically. it was the kind of school where if you weren't good at something, you weren't allowed to do it because it reflected badly on the school, as they saw. mm. so i did pottery, which was fine. it was a lot more fun, but i never returned to art after that, of drawing or painting. that was it.

that finished at the age of ii. but i loved paintings and i loved being around art, so that was something that was very special to me. on this cultural life, i ask my guests to choose those influences and experiences that have inspired their own creativity. and you've chosen film club at school, and in particular seeing ken russell's film version of tommy, the rock opera by the who. why have you chosen this? well, i don't think i've ever recovered from watching tommy, frankly. i'm still blown away by it, even that experience. i remember it very clearly. because, at school, the school was a very academic, sports—focused school, and there wasn't much fun to be had, to be honest. and one of the teachers there was clearly a very subversive character, and hejust had a film club and he just showed the most outrageous films. so he was clearly trying to bend the minds of these young boys, basically, and do that in a good way. and one of the films

he showed was tommy. and i think it was just, itjust, like i said, it sort of blew me away. all the things i'd been thinking about in terms of music and religion and politics and history were encompassed in it in a way that i couldn't really explain. visually, it was just stunning. and so itjust had everything. # that deaf, dumb and blind kid # sure plays a mean pinball...# and i remember afterwards, like, the next few days, i was sort of floating around having watched it because ijust couldn't believe what i'd seen. i couldn't believe someone had made that from their imagination. it is a visual feast. i mean, it's completely over—the—top and ridiculous in many ways. yes. what particular scenes? there's a scene with eric clapton singing eyesight to the blind in a church. # you talk about your woman # i wish you could see mine # - # every time she starts to love # she brings eyesight-

# to the blind, oh, yeah...# with a lot of disabled people but, like, real disabled people, not people acting disabled. and women in marilyn masks, giving them pills. # one word from her lips and the deaf can hear. i # whoa—oh—oh, yeah...# and then there's this huge statue of marilyn that's being carried along, and then it falls over and breaks, and there's like a sort of chaos at the end. i mean, it'sjust like, "what is this? "how's anyone allowed to do this?" i mean, i was absolutely overjoyed they were, but ijust couldn't believe what i was seeing, that that had come from his imagination. cymbal crashes your next choice for this programme is the painter, francis bacon, famous for his anguished, screaming figures. sometimes they're naked, sometimes they're caged. yeah. why bacon? fu n stuff. well, i mean, if you're thinking about an adolescent and being, you know, a teenager, that's how you feel.

or often you feel, like, misunderstood, and you want to get into the dark side of life, not that you know anything about it particularly. and so bacon, for me, wasjust, he kind of spoke to me. ijust thought, "this is just amazing that someone does this." and also, he was very articulate. when did you first see his paintings? i can't remember. i must have been about 13, 14. i can't remember the first time. and then you read what he's written about himself and the interviews, and you see him in interviews. he's incredibly charismatic. you didn't go to art school, did you? no, thank god. i would have been taught all those techniques that| i don't want to know. i mean, i want to find my own technique, because if you're l trying to do something, if you're trying to do - something that's rather - different and new, you can't use the old techniquesl which, arm, which have already been used. you make your own technique. and he talks in a very interesting way about art, i felt. so i was absolutely smitten with him. and then you get to know more about him and his lifestyle, you just think, "wow, he's like a rock star," but a super—serious artist.

and then, just quite madly, i was doing my a—level art history project on him, and i read everything i'd ever, that was ever written about him, ifelt. and then one afternoon he'd had, he had a show on at marlborough art gallery, a commercial show, and i, i got the afternoon off school. i had to get permission to go to see the show. and as i was in the show, he walked in with his sister. and i was 16 or 17, you know, and ijust thought, "i've got to talk to him. got to talk to him." and all the flunkies in the gallery were allaround him. and ijust walked up to him and said, "can ijust ask you some questions?" and he gave me i, as i remember it, a lot of his time. and the people from the gallery were almost physically trying to get me away from him and him away from me, and he told them to go away. he said, "i'm talking to the young man. leave me alone." and they alljust disappeared. so it was a big deal, basically. but to meet him and to be treated with respect by him, ifelt, was, was a real... i was very impressed by that

and loved him even more after that because he'd been nice to me. did bacon inspire you to start your own painting at that time or drawing? no, iwould never attempt to sort of go down that route, that kind of fine art, old master—style painter. it just wasn't available to me. it's really interesting that in 2004, when you won the turner prize, the report on the ten o'clock news — "this is an artist who, "by his own admission, can't paint or draw." yeah. were you trying to reclaim the idea of what art was, do you think? maybe i was trying to be mischievous and say that i can't do it. i wasjust, i was putting my hands up in admission, at least. i wouldn't say i was trying to tell the truth, but i was just saying, putting it out there. mm. because, of course, art, like everything else in the world, has changed so much, and so it can't be like it was 200 years ago. where's all the illegal chemicals at? they didn't find no illegal chemicals whatsoever. he had our people killed. he had other people killed. what did winning the turner

prize do for you as an artist at the time? well, it's the classic. you know, you win the turner prize and then you start getting invited to things that you weren't invited to before. and that's the exact moment that you don't want to go to those things because you know they're only inviting you because of the turner prize. that sort of thing. but i think it gives you... you definitely get an upgrade. you went to the courtauld to study art history, so was the idea to become an art historian or a curator? yeah, the idea was to, to be around art, because i liked it and i liked doing art history, so i wanted to be around paintings and sculpture and that world. i liked the world. so you could have been a curator? yes, i could have been. i could, but it would have been terrible. after i graduated, i did try working in a museum as a volunteer. and it was a disaster because itjust, nothing happens. you know, you're sitting in an office, you're not spending time with art or looking at it. you're. .. you know, it's admin, and itjust drove me nuts.

and so ijust knew, "i can't do this. "i have to be more actively involved somehow." so what changed, then? what made you an artist? well, at the end of the first year at the courtauld, i'd gone to an andy warhol opening and i'd met him. he signed something for me, and then i'd met him two nights later and spent time in his company. and then gone to the factory and been there for a couple of weeks on and off, and just being in his orbit and seeing his world and the world he'd created for himself was very... it kind of ruined me, really. you should just explain the factory, his, his headquarters in new york, which was his office, his studio, his film studio. everything. he painted in the basement. so the factory was basically his world, his world vision ina building. so it was very exciting to be there, but we were just hanging out, really, and just like breathing it in. as an experience, at that age, to be with someone who's sort of mythic — he was mythic then — was amazing. what did that do for your creative imagination? that must have changed

everything, that moment. itjust seemed like he was having the best time and wherever he was was the centre of the universe. that's how i felt. hmm. and did you take anything from the way the factory was run, or warhol's role there in the factory into the work that you did and the way that you worked subsequently? i like the way that he saw no boundaries between any media. he would do whatever he wanted, and he would go from one thing to another — from running a magazine to music to tv production to painting. i love that expansiveness. the fact that he was, he saw no... there were no rules, it seemed. your next choice for this cultural life is, it's not a single moment. it's a period of time — 1989 to 1996, going out. so we're talking about nightlife, clubbing. yes. it was just a time of... i was still... i think i was living with my parents. so i had to... i wanted to be out as much as possible. and i suspect they did as well,

wanted me to be out and about. ijust liked being in places with music being loud. raves? yes. i mean, indie music and that crossover, and all sorts of music. and, really, what was underpinning the scene at that time was house music. yes. and you, later, of course, you created acid brass, which was a musical mashup of acid house and the brass bands, and particularly the williams fairey brass band of stockport in lancashire playing rave anthems. and there are some very busy riffs in the bass which work excellently on the euphoniums. music: pacific 202 by 808 state the idea came about in 1996, �*95, i think. and, effectively, it's a story of britain through music. so you have industrial music, and industrialform of music—making, which is brass bands, and they look like factory parts,

do they not? and they're always associated with industries. william fairey band was an engineering company. that's right, from stockport. mines had their own brass band, steel works and so on. so it's the music of industry and of heavy industry. and i wanted that to transplant music that was post—industrial, that was effectively digitally made, onto the brass band. and you tell this story, and i made a diagram called the history of the world, which basically tried to create a narrative of british history through music. it's a flow diagram on the wall. yeah, it's a flow diagram that connects these two very... ..on the face of it, differing sort of music forms, but actually they're totally connected because it's all about industry, it's about people's social lives, it's about community and so on, and it's about geography. and what you were doing was, was more than just a concept, an idea or a diagram. you were literally making these brass... encouraging brass bands to learn these rave tunes... yes. ..and then playing them live. they were appearing at gigs, weren't they? yeah, they played dance music festivals. they still do.

music plays i didn't want to make them look stupid. i wanted to make them look really strong. and for young people, especially, to enjoy what they're doing and appreciate them. and the songs i chose, the songs i thought a brass band would be able to handle. you know, they sound like soundtracks, some of them, you know, they're very grand songs, big, big songs. like 808... 808 state. and what time is love? by the klf. you know, they're epic songs. they sound like soundtracks from a james bond film or something. they're amazing. and i think people instinctively understood what i was trying to do to get a band like that,

that look like that, to play that kind of music. i think people would instinctively realise that it was about history and about connecting periods of history. music ends cheering and applause your next choice for this programme, in fact, is two things, two artistic works that share themes, in a way. the first is jez butterworth�*s playjerusalem, from 2009, and then let england shake, an album by pj harvey from a couple of years later. why have you put these two together? they were both articulating ideas that i was having or had about britain or england and about our identity and, erm... ..history, especially with let england shake. it was like, "how do you talk about the past "in the present?" how do you talk about the first world war now? what does it mean to talk about it now? and so there's a sort of

time—travelling aspect to it. # goddamn europeans # take me back to beautiful england # and the grey, damp filthiness # of a-es and battered books and... every song on it is just so catchy. so that's a very seductive thing as well. so that album ijust played to death, but it really helped me thinking about, later on, how i would work around commemorating the battle of the somme. and withjerusalem, another artwork, really, that crystallised my view of britain. roosterjohnny byron ain't going nowhere! so a happy st george's day! now kiss my beggar arse, you puritans! klaxon blares all the things i'd been thinking about were in that play. like what? well, just folk culture. at the end of the play — i won't go into details — but the most amazing end

in that play, which is based around sort of folk, pagan culture. there's even morris dancing in it. then it begins with a rave. so it's all the things i'm interested in, basically. and that performance as well, by mark rylance, was incredible. and itjust, totally just blew me away. i was just amazed. i wouldn't say he'd read my mind, but it's like, "this is all the things i've been thinking about "for years and years." this tension between city and country, housing, the police, folk culture, rave. itjust had it all, basically. in 2001, you'd already made a piece about community, about conflict, which was the battle of orgreave, in which you used historical re—enactment societies to restage that infamous confrontation between the police and the striking miners in yorkshire. archive: by mid-morning, the picketing had turned i to rioting. eventually, senior officers ordered in the mounted police to disperse the miners. a gap opened and the horses galloped in.

shouting what was the motivation for that event and the restaging of something which, again, was such recent history? well, i think because it was recent history, and as history had been buried very effectively by...conservative governments and then new labour, and i worked with re—enactment societies. that's correct. but also with local people who, many of whom had been miners and had been at the battle of old orgreave. and we created this public event. it was about 1,000 people recreated the day, as it was. and filmed by mike figgis. filmed by mike figgis. and the reason i did it — i was very interested in that day. i remembered it as a young person watching the news and being totally disturbed by what i was looking at, cos ijust remember people being pursued up a hill by dogs and police on horseback and being sort of cut down by, by them, basically. so it had all the looks of something that would have, could have happened

500, 600 years ago. and i wanted re—enactors to, erm, put themselves in the position where they're re—enacting a battle from living memory with veterans of that battle, and to see if that changes their view of history. and they were very wary, a lot of them, of the miners, or the former miners. even though they were outnumbered, the former miners, they thought the former miners were going to start a real riot/revolution. and so that gave it an extra tension. and if you watch the film, you see that the re—enactors are very, very wary of the miners. shouting you've already alluded to this, but in 2016 you staged one of your most important works, we're here because we're here, which was a modern memorial on the centenary of the battle of the somme, in which thousands of volunteers throughout the uk appeared as soldiers

in public places. just talk about how the work came about, first of all. i was asked if i had an idea for how would you memorialise a disaster, effectively. 19,000 people dying in one day. i just thought to myself, "what would i like to see "as someone, what would be interesting for me to know?" and ijust thought, "well, it has to be living people "to represent the dead." and so the idea really occurred to me, most of it, in one go. it's just that people in very accurate uniform move through britain on that day, unannounced, and they kind of infect the body politic. it's like a virus effectively going through britain and these men. and it's slightly sinister, maybe, or off—putting or whatever. ghostly. yes. but they're more like phantoms. not that i know what a phantom is compared to a ghost, but was more like... it's not a haunting as such. but it's just the... it's the presence. so we're very much... ..3d and they're solid things. they're not like ghosts you can put your hand through. they're there and they, they won't talk to you, but they will sing

a song occasionally. # we're here because we're here — # because we're here _ because we're here # were — here because we're here # because we're here i because we're here. if you pay any interest in them, they'll give you a card which has the name of someone who died, who they... they're not playing that character. it'sjust a name of someone who died. just like... and their regiment and their age. exactly. so all the details you'd find on a gravestone. you'd basically be given a mini gravestone for someone. and we'd try to make it regional. so people would be in the uniforms of the... of the local regiments in those areas, and then they were mixed up a bit as well, as if they were lost. some members of the regiment, then there was someone in a kilt. and so it's like they're kind of lost souls, almost. they're just travelling through britain, through contemporary britain. there's shots of them in shopping centres, are the best ones, i think.

i came across a platoon in kings cross, and then another platoon walking up through the west end. really? and there were shots of them on a beach in scotland. yes! i mean, it was it was every part of the country. yes, it happened throughout the whole of the country. there's thousands of people took part, and it was unannounced. that's the most important thing. it was unannounced. so your reaction to it was, as yours was, was that of surprise. you didn't know really what was happening. my reaction was more than surprise. it was one of the most moving things i've ever seen. really? as an artwork. yeah. and i think a lot of people shared that emotion. the thing that happened more than anything else was people were crying. i wasn't expecting that. what it did coming face—to—face with those young men — as you say, they were mainly young men — was to make manifest the absolutely appalling loss. hmm. and i think it made people really think, and particularly the cards. yeah. just those ages on the cards. as soon as people read the card, they didn't have any other questions, theyjust kind of got it. i was going to suggest you're like the ringmaster, in a way, because you're

working with these groups of, often very large groups of people. but, actually, from what you're suggesting there, you're more just the ideas man. you have to come up with a concept and then let everybody else get on. well, the idea is, obviously, everything is... when people ask me, "oh, will you do this or will you do that?" i say, "yes, if i get a decent idea," because it's... there's no point doing anything if you don't have a decent idea. i mean, that's obvious, isn't it? how does it work, though? what is the working routine when you do get that idea? well, i don't get them enough. i wish i had... i mean, iwish i had a decent idea every day. you know, it'd be amazing. but you get them from time to time, and you get them when you're not expecting to get them. cos i think what happens with your brain is your, your brain is actually thinking about all these things you're meant to be doing. and sometimes your subconscious just throws up ideas when you're not expecting it, or you see something and you see it incorrectly, or you read something and it's, you actually read it the wrong way or something. and then your brain is maybe telling you something by, by seeing or hearing something differently. and so i think that's how it works.

jeremy deller, thank you so much for sharing your cultural life with us. thank you, john. for podcast episodes of this cultural life, go to bbc sounds, or wherever you get your podcasts. after such a wet week i can bring you some better news in the weekend weather forecast because although it will be colder it is also going to be drier. not completely dry. still some showers around, some bits and pieces of rain, particularly as we start saturday across northern and eastern areas, where we have had a fair amount of cloud. but this slice of clear sky spinning in from the west has been allowing temperatures to drop with some frost and fog and ice to start saturday morning with so much water around.

where temperatures have dropped to freezing below we are likely to see some ice. some of the fog could be slow to clear across southwest scotland and northern england. some rain persisting in the northern isles into the afternoon, the band of cloud persistent as well across eastern counties of england with a few bits and pieces of showery rain. the odd shower out west, but sunshine, too, highs 5—9 degrees. the band of cloud will roll further west on saturday night coming into the midlands, it could bring the odd shower. where we keep clear, temperatures —5 or lower than that. temperatures around or below freezing. maybe “4, —5 or lower than that in some parts of scotland. heading into sunday with some cloud and a brisk wind in the southeast corner, that will provide the odd shower. elsewhere but it will feel cold. 2—6 degrees, particularly cold if any morning fog lingers for any length of time. heading into monday,

the high pressure, if anything, will strengthen, centred in the north of the uk. quite a few isobars down to the south, meaning strong winds. those winds combined with cold air will make for a decidedly chilly feel. brisk winds to the south. further north, not as windy, but there could be persistent fog and misty, murky conditions. sunny spells as well. top temperatures two or three degrees in parts of scotland, northern ireland, england and wales, 3—6 degrees celsius. but with the strength in the wind, this is the feels like temperature, where it will feel subzero. very chilly on monday, perhaps a little less cold as the week wears on — but staying mostly dry.

live from washington,

this is bbc news. the un's humanitarian chief says gaza has now become uninhabitable as israel continues its bombardment of the strip. with unrest threatening to spread across the middle east, us secretary of state antony blinken arrives in turkey for another trip to the region. and three months on from the october seven attack, the families of those taken hostage by hamas at the nova music festival visit the nova music festival visit the site, still hoping for their return. hello. i am carl nasman. the israeli war against the masses continuing amid concerns for those in the region. martin griffiths, un humanitarian chief says the area has been

rendered uninhabitable.