special olympics provides sport for people with intellectual disability at every level. now at the australian open, lily will be taking on the very best players in the world in her category. that was good, well done. the fact that she's going to the australian open, i you can see the motivation. and the energy on the court. it makes the coaching process very easy, to be honest. - there are 10,000 miles between islington and melbourne. lily already has come far further than that. joe wilson, bbc news, in north london. time for a look at the weather, here's ben rich. we have had a huge change in the weather,

tonight, we speak live to the real alan bates, the man who dedicated years to bringing the post office scandal to light, and to the woman whose dramatisation for the small screen got a very big reaction. —— and to gwyneth hughes, the woman whose dramatisation for the small screen has had a very big reaction. wrongful convictions, more than 700 of them —

prison sentences, reputations trashed, bankruptcy, and now new cases. the post office scandal is only deepening. as we go on air, the petition to strip the former post office boss paula vennells of her cbe is well over a million and the prime minister has said he would support a review of it. it doesn't help the hundreds upon hundreds whose lives were all but destroyed and, in some cases, actually destroyed — who will pay their compensation and when? we speak to the subpostmaster at the heart of itv�*s drama and the writer who's reignited an issue that had slipped from the public consciousness. and we'll be joined by the former government minister paul scully, who was behind the strengthening of the post office horizen it inquiry, giving it statutory powers, after first opposing it. also tonight, a special report for newsnight from the bbc team that's uncovered the widespread abuse, torture and rape by the founder of one of the world's biggest

christian evangelical churches. you've got this man who positioned himself as a father with many children and went on to rape, molest and abuse all these people. and the german footballing legend franz beckenbaur, the player german fans called de kaiser, died today. we speak to his former captain and roommate. good evening. the powerful itv drama about the post office scandal, mr bates vs the post office, which reportedly brought one cabinet minister to tears, lit a touchpaper in the public�*s consciousness and has had the effect of exerting fresh political pressure on the government to exonerate the convicted and to make sure full compensation, from whatever quarter — the treasury or fujitsu, the computer company responsible for the faulty software — is delivered, and quickly. as the real alan bates,

who we'll speak to in a moment, has said, some of the victims have died and others are now dying and they have families who are affected too. paula vennells, a former anglican priest, who was chief executive of the post office between 2012 and 2019 has so far been missing in action, and so far with her cbe intact. nick is here with the latest tonight and news that the government may move to wipe the convictions. that's right. we have a clear direction of travel on that although we haven't reached the final destination but, to give a flavour of the thinking and debate in government. let's listen to this exchange in the commons in the last few hours between robert buckland, former lord chancellor, and kevin hollinrake, current minister responsible for postal services.

this is an unprecedented set of circumstances and it requires and a presidential response, which should be legislation on the floor of this house to deal with convictions of this huge number of victims. i urge upon my honourable friend and bright red book of the lord chancellor to look urgently at the question of legislation that i know will be supported in this house to create a presumption of innocence that will cut... ,, ., ., , cut... this situation is unprecedented - cut... this situation is unprecedented and i cut... this situation is - unprecedented and legislation cut... this situation is _ unprecedented and legislation on the floor unprecedented and legislation on the floor of— unprecedented and legislation on the floor of the house is something we discussed — floor of the house is something we discussed at length they in the meeting — discussed at length they in the meeting with the lord chancellor and officials _ meeting with the lord chancellor and officials. he will be aware that the lord chancellor is speaking to the judiciary— lord chancellor is speaking to the judiciary about these matters and he may want _ judiciary about these matters and he may want to make his feelings known to make _ may want to make his feelings known to make sure there is no barrier to making _ to make sure there is no barrier to making sure — to make sure there is no barrier to making sure we can legislate in the way he _ making sure we can legislate in the way he describes.— way he describes. significance is, a few moments _ way he describes. significance is, a few moments earlier, _ way he describes. significance is, a few moments earlier, kevin - few moments earlier, kevin hollinrake shared the work of the horizon composition advisory board, the body chaired by kristin hodges,

and it has another legal academic honours, christopher moorhead, but has the labour mp kevin choate and former conservative mpjames about not who have campaigned on this longer than any other parliamentarians, and this body wrote a letter to the government last month and it said, we believe the only viable approach is to overturn all 900 plus post office driven convictions from the horizon period. a small minority work—out is generally guilty of something but we believe it would be worth quitting if you guilty people who have already been punished in order to deliverjustice to already been punished in order to deliver justice to the already been punished in order to deliverjustice to the majority, which they then say would not otherwise happen. we are not there yet. and stan alex chalk, the current lord chancellor, when he but this gob, but he is meeting the judiciary. they want understand that the independence of the judiciary is understand it, not being seen to interfere in court, but it looks like we might have announcement

within days. and there are persistent questions over the role of ed davey in this when he was a minister. ed over the role of ed davey in this when he was a minister. ed davey was postal affairs — when he was a minister. ed davey was postal affairs minister _ when he was a minister. ed davey was postal affairs minister between - when he was a minister. ed davey was postal affairs minister between test i postal affairs minister between test ten and 2012 and he received a better from alan bates saying, shall better from alan bates saying, shall be meat, and ed davey said, i don't think that will serve a useful papers. they did meet up subsequently but tonight ed davey is going on the offensive. he is given an interview to the guardian talking about how the post office is guilty of spreading a conspiracy of lies. he is not apologising for the there is a debate in the lib dems. support of ed davey are saying, this is the right—wing media, a media squall. we should give them what they want. there are other senior veteran figure saying, that's not good enough to dip the does have a strong case. he was like to by the post office but they are saying what they need from their leader is full contrition. well, almost 25 years on from the introduction of horizon

in the post office, the government said tonight it would leave "no stone unturned" in the pursuit ofjustice. sima kotecha has answered four key questions, which help to explain who knew what when and what needs exploring next. in1999, in 1999, the post office introduced a new it system called horizon and it was made by the japanese company fujitsu. it was there to help post offices with their accounting and stock—taking. soon after it was installed, some supposed mothers and postmistresses began noticing the system was falsely reporting shortfalls, some amounting to thousands. shortfalls, some amounting to thousands-— shortfalls, some amounting to thousands. ~ thousands. when i said, look, there is something — thousands. when i said, look, there is something basically, _ thousands. when i said, look, there is something basically, the - is something basically, the computers are naff, they said, oh, you are the only one having problems. everyone else is doing fine. pa.

problems. everyone else is doing fine. �* , . . problems. everyone else is doing fine. �* , ., ., ., problems. everyone else is doing fine. ~ , ., ., ., , fine. a year later, after some use their own — fine. a year later, after some use their own money _ fine. a year later, after some use their own money to _ fine. a year later, after some use their own money to pay _ fine. a year later, after some use their own money to pay the - their own money to pay the shortfall, the post office began prosecuting employees, alleging theft, fraud and. counting the dip by 2015, more than 700 men and women had been grimly convicted. more than 93 convictions have been overturned. some went to prison for fourth accounting and theft for the many were financially ruined. legislation made provision _ were financially ruined. legislation made provision for _ were financially ruined. legislation made provision for the _ were financially ruined. legislation made provision for the post - were financially ruined. legislation made provision for the post office | made provision for the post office to initiate private prosecutions backin to initiate private prosecutions back in the day and obviously the fundamental problem here is that we had a prosecutor that was complainants, investigatorjudge complainants, investigator judge jury complainants, investigator judge jury and complainants, investigatorjudge jury and ultimately was beneficiary as well. so conflict on every level, which obviously was a recipe for disaster from day one. the 2019 civiljudgment — disaster from day one. the 2019 civiljudgment against _ disaster from day one. the 2019 civiljudgment against the - disaster from day one. the 2019 civiljudgment against the post i civil judgment against the post office lists 29 bugs, errors and

defects with horizon, some from as far back as 1999, when the system was launched. despite post office denial, these problems started to gain a wider audience from 2009 when trade marketing computer weekly began telling the stories of affected supposed martyrs that formed group to fight forjustice. test from affected sub—postmaster is that you have formed a group. in the judgment of a civil case, a fujitsu employee is quoted as saying in fabry 2006, this bug has been around for years. which the judge said meant they had long known about the effects in the software. in the civil case, thejudge ruled that horizon was not remotely reliable for at least the first ten years of its use. thejudge for at least the first ten years of its use. the judge found the icy system was prone to errors which could and did affect individual supposed martyrs' branch accounts.

rice is still viewed by the post office, which describes related fusion as robust and says it's working on a new system the post office and jujitsu say they support the aims of the public inquiry as it seeks to right the wrongs of the past. i seeks to right the wrongs of the ast. ., , , seeks to right the wrongs of the ast, ., , , , ., , seeks to right the wrongs of the ast. , ,, ,, past. i lost my savings, business, m 'ob.i past. i lost my savings, business, myjob- i became _ past. i lost my savings, business, my job. i became very _ past. i lost my savings, business, j my job. i became very depressed. myjob. i became very depressed. i've been diagnosed with ptsd. i have some serious health issues which will never be cured now. financially and mentally, i'm not the same person i was before. i don't see i will ever be the same person and i don't really like the person and i don't really like the person i am now because who i was before was who i wanted to be. the government — before was who i wanted to be. the government says it's drawn up a plan to fast—track appeals of hundreds of former postmasters but there are questions in the commons tonight about how to include all those who have been wronged, notjust those

who were prosecuted how will the already overstretched court system cope and will those responsible finally be held to account? in a moment, will speak to alan bates, who led the campaign forjustice and gwyneth hughes, writer of the itv show strip first, a clip. so now if you read out everything, it'll balance. ok, this is so helpful. thank you. don't go away. stay with me till i've done it. oh, my god. it'sjust doubled right in front of my eyes. now it says i'm £4,000 down. it'll sort itself out. these things do. in the meantime... i was only doing what you told me. in the meantime, you'll need to make good the loss. i haven't got that money, and i don't know where it's gone. i'm sorry. you are responsible for balancing your account and making good any shortfalls.

thank you forjoining us. both the clip from the drama shows the absolute terror but also the testimony of the woman in sima kotecha's piece, saying she is not the person she was before. i wonder what you make of what the government seems now to be offering by way of recompense, both in terms of money but also acknowledgement of people's hurt? what do you think of that? there are three different schemes running and unfortunately it seems to be those who brought the initial case against post office, the original 555, case against post office, the original555, it case against post office, the original 555, it seems to be those who have been left at the end of the queue. there has been a lot of mention today about the overturned

convictions, which is fine, and that's important to sort and resolve, but they seem to be steering away from the truth, well, the original group that brought the action and who are so far left outside. ., ., , outside. you were really the earliest campaigner - outside. you were really the earliest campaigner and - outside. you were really the earliest campaigner and it's| outside. you were really the - earliest campaigner and it's clear, your name is in the title, but i wonder, in all this story and the research, the campaigning, the drama, what about your own trauma for over 20 years, alan bates? it's clear that this is absolutely dominated your life.- clear that this is absolutely dominated your life. clear that this is absolutely dominated our life. . �*, , dominated your life. yeah, it's been the best and — dominated your life. yeah, it's been the best and worst _ dominated your life. yeah, it's been the best and worst paid _ dominated your life. yeah, it's been the best and worst paid job - dominated your life. yeah, it's been the best and worst paid job i've - the best and worst paid job i've had. you just carry on with it they are today. the more stories you hear, from the victims, we can't let it go to dip you have to carry on

with it. simple as that.- it go to dip you have to carry on with it. simple as that. what did ou make with it. simple as that. what did you make of _ with it. simple as that. what did you make of your _ with it. simple as that. what did you make of your own _ with it. simple as that. what did you make of your own portrayall with it. simple as that. what did l you make of your own portrayal in the drama?— you make of your own portrayal in thedrama? g ., ,, , ., the drama? toby jones play my role to di i the drama? toby jones play my role to dip i mean. _ the drama? toby jones play my role to dip i mean, i'm _ the drama? toby jones play my role to dip i mean, i'm probably - the drama? toby jones play my role to dip i mean, i'm probably the - to dip i mean, i'm probably the worst person ever to make comment about how well toby did flip i think everyone knows i'm more than happy about it. , , , ., ., about it. gwyneth, you had three ears of about it. gwyneth, you had three years of research _ about it. gwyneth, you had three years of research to _ about it. gwyneth, you had three years of research to get - about it. gwyneth, you had three years of research to get to - about it. gwyneth, you had three years of research to get to where you were in terms of writing the drama, which built on a lot of things that had gone before. what did you make of the stories and the people? you spent time going around the country talking to former sub—postmasters and mistresses? i did. i started thisjob three years did. i started this job three years ago and we were still in covid. all my first contact with people were over zoom, which was horrendous, because nobody wants to talk about the worst thing that ever happened

in their life over zoom for dip as soon as the covid restriction is lifted, i got in the car and drove around to north wales to see alan at the hampshire to seejo hamilton and all the other people who appear and were generous enough to give their stories to our drama, eight stories, only eight of all the hundreds of people whose lives have been ruined by this. people whose lives have been ruined b this. ~ , ., people whose lives have been ruined b this. ~ y., , .,, by this. when you met the people, and have your _ by this. when you met the people, and have your own _ by this. when you met the people, and have your own conversations, | and have your own conversations, what do you make of the stories and what do you make of the stories and what had happened to them? by, liat what do you make of the stories and what had happened to them? a lot of the time they — what had happened to them? a lot of the time they were _ what had happened to them? a lot of the time they were just _ the time they were just unbelievable. just the best true stories are unbelievable. when you write a completely fictional story, that all thoughts of things you can't get away with because nobody would believe it but this is full of unbelievable things that are true! i was constantly being completely flabbergasted by the things people told me put it was extraordinary, you saw the clip withjo, how is it

possible that people who could tell a woman who is just watched her own shortfall double in front of her eyes that it is her fault? it's just madness. it was constantly like that. as madness. it was constantly like that. �* ., ., , , madness. it was constantly like that. ., ., , , ., ., that. a lot of these people, one of the thin . s that. a lot of these people, one of the things that _ that. a lot of these people, one of the things that came _ that. a lot of these people, one of the things that came across - that. a lot of these people, one of the things that came across in - the things that came across in the drama and all the research before, was how absolutely isolated people felt. they felt there was nobody else and impact alan first clicked with another sub—postmaster in fife but before that, you had no sense of just what a complete spiders web this was? flat just what a complete spiders web this was? ., ., ., , this was? not at all but i had serious concerns _ this was? not at all but i had serious concerns over - this was? not at all but i had serious concerns over it - this was? not at all but i had . serious concerns over it because this was? not at all but i had - serious concerns over it because i had used these types of systems before we went into the post office. i felt there were real shortcomings in the design. i felt there were real shortcomings in the design-— in the design. when you spoke to --eole in the design. when you spoke to people and _ in the design. when you spoke to people and heard _ in the design. when you spoke to people and heard their— in the design. when you spoke to people and heard their stories, . people and heard their stories, gwyneth, what did it make you think?

did you become angry? each gwyneth, what did it make you think? did you become angry?— gwyneth, what did it make you think? did you become angry? each week that assed i did you become angry? each week that assedi not did you become angry? each week that passed i got angrier _ did you become angry? each week that passed i got angrier and angrier! - passed i got angrier and angrier! and they were all completely isolated, told by the post office that each of them was told you are the only one and that is just heartbreaking. it's bad enough to feel alone but to be told by this faceless corporation of complete, well, villains, that you are all alone in the world and you are the only one this is happening to come and for that to be a lie... actually believable that could happen in my country, is how i felt about it, i could believe what i was finding out about what was happening here in britain. brute about what was happening here in britain. ~ , about what was happening here in britain. ~ ., britain. we can play something from the house of — britain. we can play something from the house of commons _ britain. we can play something from the house of commons today. - i'm very pleased that last week's excellent itv drama mr bates versus the post office has brought an understanding of the horizon scandal to a much broader audience. it is a powerful reminder of the way art and culture can be used to tackle injustice and to raise

public awareness. it struck me that this was another example of what bishop - jamesjones referred to in terms i of the hillsborough inquiry when he talked about the patronising - disposition of unaccountable power. i think we need more tv dramas because it has had a remarkable effect on attendance in this house tonight. but the drama was successful because i think it spoke about the victims. and speaking about the victims, you are quite clear that although there is a tranche of people being helped, there is a huge tranche are people not being helped?— there is a huge tranche are people not being helped? yes, we started this scheme _ not being helped? yes, we started this scheme in _ not being helped? yes, we started this scheme in 20 _ not being helped? yes, we started this scheme in 20 months - not being helped? yes, we started this scheme in 20 months ago - not being helped? yes, we started| this scheme in 20 months ago with the government and at the moment only a handful have come out the far end of it. this is despite government promises, i think after 40 government promises, i think after a0 days people would be given their first offer, and it isjust

a0 days people would be given their first offer, and it is just not happening, they arejust first offer, and it is just not happening, they are just not meeting their targets and these case are backing up on government desks. and of these cases are also multiplying after the drama. i wonder about that, what is it about a drama that creates such an extraordinary reaction? were you surprised at the strength of the reaction? astonished, bowled over, we all were, none of us were expecting this. look back a week later and you think, chimes hugely with what the whole population is feeling or seems to be, that people feel, everyone feels unheard, that things are happening in this country they don't like, they didn't vote for, and i think you watch the post office drama and you think, what happened to them in a very small way is happening to me as well. i'm not hurt, listened to. i think that is why it has taken off, when i look back. at the time, last monday we

were comforting ourselves thinking were comforting ourselves thinking we won't do very well, it's new year, everybody wanted something a bit more entertaining than what we are offering! we were not expecting to do nearly as well as we did, and astonished, blown away by it. band astonished, blown away by it. and more people _ astonished, blown away by it. and more people are coming forward now actually it is about the fact that people did not take you seriously at first, and if you look at ed davey, when he was in charge, he took the post office's word against yours, the institution against the individual in a way? he the institution against the individual in a way? the institution against the individual in a wa ? , �* individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking — individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking on _ individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking on ed _ individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking on ed davey, _ individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking on ed davey, i- individual in a way? he did, but i'm not picking on ed davey, i think- not picking on ed davey, i think you find that with most of the ministers that have been imposed ever since. they were briefed by their officials and i think a lot of it has got to do with the briefing that the officials and post office gave them over the years. bud officials and post office gave them over the years-— officials and post office gave them over the years. and what about paula vennells? i — over the years. and what about paula vennells? i know— over the years. and what about paula vennells? i know it's _ over the years. and what about paula vennells? i know it's not _ over the years. and what about paula vennells? i know it's notjust - vennells? i know it's notjust down to one person, you are smiling there, she refused to believe there

was any problem or refuse to accept there was any problem. on the question is, should she be giving back her cbe? that seems to be a very live issue for the prime minister. very live issue for the prime minister-— very live issue for the prime minister. �*, ., , , minister. it's not 'ust should she rive minister. it's not 'ust should she live it minister. it's not 'ust should she give it back — minister. it's not 'ust should she give it back or_ minister. it's notjust should she give it back or should _ minister. it's notjust should she give it back or should it - minister. it's notjust should she give it back or should it be - minister. it's notjust should she give it back or should it be taken away, who gave it to her in the first place? that is the big question that needs answering. because this scandal was known about and the problems with horizon were known about for many years so why did they think she had done such a good job at the post office? band did they think she had done such a good job at the post office? and of course ou good job at the post office? and of course you did _ good job at the post office? and of course you did try _ good job at the post office? and of course you did try to _ good job at the post office? and of course you did try to get in - good job at the post office? and of course you did try to get in touch . course you did try to get in touch with paula vennells but that wasn't so successful, although in your drama you were looking at individual stores but tell me what you make of that. in stores but tell me what you make of that. . , , ., ., that. in fairness, i did meet paula vennells over— that. in fairness, i did meet paula vennells over the _ that. in fairness, i did meet paula vennells over the years, - that. in fairness, i did meet paula| vennells over the years, meetings that. in fairness, i did meet paula . vennells over the years, meetings as we were trying to resolve things, but she just took the company line,

shejust defended but she just took the company line, she just defended the company left, right and centre, it was all about the brand and i know, like many others these days, they were well aware of the problems with the system, numerous reports had been produced over the years but they did not come forward and they did not own up over the problem. gwyneth hu~hes, own up over the problem. gwyneth hughes. on — own up over the problem. gwyneth hughes. on the _ own up over the problem. gwyneth hughes, on the question of - own up over the problem. gwyneth hughes, on the question of paula l hughes, on the question of paula vennells? it’s hughes, on the question of paula vennells? �* , . , hughes, on the question of paula vennells? �*, . , ., , vennells? it's really sad actually, because this _ vennells? it's really sad actually, because this was _ vennells? it's really sad actually, because this was known - vennells? it's really sad actually, because this was known about. because this was known about some years ago, certainly known about when she accepted her cbe i wonder, why did she accept it? did she think this would alljust go away? she could have... hindsight obviously, but it was within her power to be the night on the white charger, know what was going on and say, ok, only to fix it, it's my organisation, i'm the boss and i can fix it but for whatever reason, i don't know what that reason is, with luck the public inquiry will dig into this, for whatever reason she did not feel able to do that and she just kept

defending what turned out to be the indefensible. bud defending what turned out to be the indefensible.— indefensible. and it is on the front -a . es indefensible. and it is on the front pages now. had — indefensible. and it is on the front pages now, had a huge _ indefensible. and it is on the front i pages now, had a huge reaction, but when this story is not on the front pages, do you worry, gwyneth hughes, that this will not necessarily be resolved as quickly and effectively as you would hope?— as you would hope? obviously we worry about that _ as you would hope? obviously we worry about that and at _ as you would hope? obviously we i worry about that and at the moment all the sub—masters who took part in the completely ecstatic with it, ecstatic with how it has been heard and to be a part of the national conversation —— sub postmasters. but that will soon wear off if it takes too long to put this right. what too long to put this right. what do ou too long to put this right. what do you think. alan — too long to put this right. what do you think, alan bates? will- too long to put this right. what do i you think, alan bates? will there be even more people coming forward in the next few weeks?— even more people coming forward in the next few weeks? there have been, and --eole the next few weeks? there have been, and people had — the next few weeks? there have been, and people had been _ the next few weeks? there have been, and people had been contacting - and people had been contacting government, contacting mps. and some of the lawyers involved. i have been hearing from one or two as well. but it's very positive, what has happened here. it is something that has been seething underneath the

surface for quite a while and i think the drama has really exposed it now to the nation.— it now to the nation. thank you both ve much it now to the nation. thank you both very much indeed. _ it now to the nation. thank you both very much indeed. paul— it now to the nation. thank you both very much indeed. paul scully i very much indeed. paul scully was ministerfor postal very much indeed. paul scully was minister for postal affairs between 2020 and 2022 and he joins minister for postal affairs between 2020 and 2022 and hejoins me now. thank you forjoining me. it was quite something to hear mps on both sides of the house expressing their horror at the scale of this. it really was but you heard it from kevin jones, what this really was but you heard it from kevinjones, what this has done, the government has been working on this for a few years now, my time and through kevin hollinrake but within four hours of an amazing story telling, it has brought a concise history, it felt like a drama but it also felt like the fact that they had, this is a true story of the beginning of every episode, it needed that because it was so full on. ,, ., ., ., ~ ., needed that because it was so full on. ,, ., ., .,~ ., ., ., on. should it have taken a drama for mps, and of — on. should it have taken a drama for mps, and of course _ on. should it have taken a drama for mps, and of course some have i on. should it have taken a drama for mps, and of course some have beenj mps, and of course some have been working behind the scenes, but a drama to bring this outpouring in

the commons? ida. drama to bring this outpouring in the commons?— drama to bring this outpouring in the commons? ., , , the commons? no, this is the thing, what ou the commons? no, this is the thing, what you tend _ the commons? no, this is the thing, what you tend to _ the commons? no, this is the thing, what you tend to find _ the commons? no, this is the thing, what you tend to find with _ the commons? no, this is the thing, what you tend to find with the i what you tend to find with the commons these days is a lot of people, it is two and a half hours of statement to date with a lot of people repeating themselves because they want to see that they are part of the solution. but i answered a number of urgent questions, a number of written questions, westminster hall debate, people like kevin jones, other mps that have been out there standing up, lucy allan for example, standing up for their constituents.— example, standing up for their constituents. ~ ., ., ., constituents. would we have heard this ten years _ constituents. would we have heard this ten years ago? probably i this ten years ago? probably not because it's it's _ this ten years ago? probably not because it's it's only if _ this ten years ago? probably not because it's it's only if you i this ten years ago? probably not because it's it's only if you had l this ten years ago? probably not because it's it's only if you had aj because it's it's only if you had a constituent as an mp that you realise the enormity of it put everybody including the public including the public knew something was happening but not the scale. by, was happening but not the scale. a lot of mps are calling for things to be done so do you regret initially rejecting a judge led inquiry in 2020, partly on the grounds that it would take too long but also expense? would take too long but also expense?— would take too long but also expense?_ would take too long but also exense? a . , �* expense? actually, it wasn't about exense,

expense? actually, it wasn't about expense. it — expense? actually, it wasn't about expense, it was totally _ expense? actually, it wasn't about expense, it was totally about let's| expense, it was totally about let's get this through. you can make the case, a talk about expense, in terms of the fact that people would, as i described it, a lawyer up, people need barristers etc and that was money that would otherwise go to compensation. my cell purpose for making it non—statutory was to get through it and it should have finished by now —— my sole purpose put the packet still going on shows the complexity. you put the packet still going on shows the complexity-— the complexity. you heard alan bates sa in: the complexity. you heard alan bates saying there's a _ the complexity. you heard alan bates saying there's a whole tranche - saying there's a whole tranche that had not been accepted and dealt with. and right now, we note the next few weeks, more will come forward. were not even halfway through this probably. it is forward. were not even halfway through this probably.— forward. were not even halfway through this probably. it is less to do with whether _ through this probably. it is less to do with whether i _ through this probably. it is less to do with whether i should - through this probably. it is less to do with whether i should have i do with whether i should have made it non—statutory, what i would have done again if i had my time again, taken it in—house come at a single scheme, run it from the government rather than letting the post office mark their own homework and roll at the conversation scheme and us just oversee it put its explored me to think, again, talking about one individual point it's notjust one individual point it's notjust one

individual but when you have a chief executive. , , , , ~ executive. they simply blanket refuses to _ executive. they simply blanket refuses to believe _ executive. they simply blanket refuses to believe it _ executive. they simply blanket refuses to believe it and i executive. they simply blanket refuses to believe it and so i executive. they simply blanketl refuses to believe it and so they stand by the post office and fujitsu and yet the numbers are mounting up and yet the numbers are mounting up and it seems extraordinary. it’s and it seems extraordinary. it's horrendous. — and it seems extraordinary. it�*s horrendous, and not only are they mounting up but they all felt isolated as it was just them. the fact is, it seems to a groupthink, a brand protection rather than actually, this is human cost, these are thousands of people who have lost money, hundreds of people prosecuted. lost money, hundreds of people prosecuted-— lost money, hundreds of people rosecuted. ., ., , prosecuted. people have lost money and prosecuted, _ prosecuted. people have lost money and prosecuted, they _ prosecuted. people have lost money and prosecuted, they have _ prosecuted. people have lost money and prosecuted, they have lost i and prosecuted, they have lost their health, people have died, people that will never be the same again and also people even tonight who probably kept pumping money in and eventually gave up who we haven't heard from still put it extraordinary, and yet we don't, we

know the post office doesn't have much money, presumably treasury will have to pony up but what about fujitsu? have to pony up but what about fu'itsu? , , . have to pony up but what about fu'itsu? , , ~ , have to pony up but what about fu'itsu? , , . , , fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is there to do _ fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is there to do because _ fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is there to do because what - fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is there to do because what we'll i fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is there to do because what we'll do | fujitsu? this is what the inquiry is l there to do because what we'll do is get the answers from sir wyn williams, the retired judge, and when we get that we will get the accountability, including fujitsu, frankly, because there's no way to the taxpayer should be on the book for all of this compensation. if others can clearly be proved to have notjust been wrong that double down on it in that process. band notjust been wrong that double down on it in that process.— on it in that process. and first of all, on it in that process. and first of all. should _ on it in that process. and first of all, should paula _ on it in that process. and first of all, should paula vennells i on it in that process. and first of all, should paula vennells give l on it in that process. and first of i all, should paula vennells give back her cbe? in all, should paula vennells give back her cbe? , , , ., her cbe? in my view, yes, i would hoe her cbe? in my view, yes, i would ho -e she her cbe? in my view, yes, i would hope she would _ post office contracts. post office contracts because _ post office contracts. post office contracts because you _ post office contracts. post office contracts because you have i post office contracts. post office contracts because you have the l contracts because you have the horizon system written by fujitsu, it is their system, so it needs replacing and they need a lot of funding to do that, the post office and until that, it is fujitsu so i don't think there's a lot of choice. i think horizon is very different now from years gone by but i'm not

the expert on that point would you give them a new contract at the post office until it sorted out? i think they need to keep their own system going but there is a new system needed. and i think it's pretty clear what the post office should do but having a new contractor. band but having a new contractor. and also aet but having a new contractor. and also get fuiitsu _ but having a new contractor. and also get fujitsu to pony up some compensation question absolutely. thank you. the nigerian televangelist tb joshua was one of the most powerful religious figures of the early 21st century, an evangelical preacher feted by presidents and premier league footballers. through his christian television station he reached millions daily. before his death, in 2121, joshua, who claimed to have cured all manner of illness in televised healings, lived with more than a hundred disciples inside a secretive compound in lagos. now, bbc africa eye has uncovered evidence of rape, torture and forced abortions,

with alleged victims from all over the world, including the uk. this is the first time that the truth is being heard from the heart of this organisation. it looked helpful. it looked loving, not knowing that behind that was a sadist, a psychopath. the god i was introduced to is evil. he's diabolic because this is the same god that i would sleep with us. this is the same god i that would beat us up. this is the same god - that would beat us up. that would manipulate us. he was all over the world. open your life. share your testimony.

the people i saw in- the videos, they were real. theirailments, their- sicknesses, their suffering was evidentially real. and then there were these incredible documented healings. _ we saw live testimonies. you were up close and personal. ican see! this is what i've been looking for. this is a prophet who has been called by god. god speaks to him directly. he'll be able to guide me and how i can live my life. this is what we've been praying for. it's when they got to the synagogue church, that's when the manipulation starts. young ones, they are very vulnerable and they are easy people to manipulate. 0h, they are well treated here, like kings and princes. feeding is free.

accommodation is free. we were living on site in the church. when you live at the compound, you don't leave the compound. you could get killed. you could get attacked. the outside of the compound is terrifying. you couldn't contact anyone outside. i didn't have my own cell phone. we didn't have our passports. they held them for us. it was just like a puppeteer. he had the strings. the whole compound revolved around tbjoshua. he was really violent. we didn't speak about these things. there was no safe place. he created narratives about all of us. you know, this one's got a problem with men. promiscuous. he would tell me, look- at the way you are looking. it's a spirit of lust.

i can help you. he raped me. he broke my virginity. it became so robotic, i disconnected from my body. he literally pushed me down to the bed and he got on me. a lot of women were being abused by this man. - i had no idea. i thought i was the only one. he will be calling girls in, one after the other. i stayed there almost 1a years. they will be in thousands. i had three abortions at synagogue. and from speaking to other women, i'm not the only one.

i if any of us got pregnant, he said, i "you cannot betray the men of god. we have to do something about it." women that he rapes, - he forces them into abortion. i never had a choice. when i left, i went back to confront him because i wanted the abuse to stop. let me come here and meet. i want to speak english. i was filming this on my phone in case something bad happened. we'd obviously seen the security manhandle people before. let me get out. let me get off. why can't he come here? why is he so hurt?

when we left, we wrote a letter that we sent to the church, itemizing the serious abuses that people were having to endure, just being a disciple. the church knew. they didn't investigate. they did absolutely nothing. when i eventually got out, | i started looking for people who over these 12, 13 years i had been with there. _ and just went down this rabbit hole of, like, i one horror to another horror. you've got this man who positioned himself as a father with many - children and went on to rape, - molest and abuse all these people,

who held that bond sacred. how is somebody like that permitted to walk free? i i want to tell my story to say that, look, it's not easy, but you'll be ok. you can come out of this and you can heal. the fact that i have two kids is a miracle. because of the trauma i experienced. i'm proud of myself for having the courage to tell the truth . about who this man really was. it's not been easy, but despite being upset about friends and family

still there, i'm so grateful to be out. i'm so gratefuljust to be free. you can see the full series disciples: the cult of tbjoshua on iplayer. and if you have been affected by sexual abuse, you can visit the bbc action line website where you find information and support. franz beckenbauer, the german defender regarded as one of the greatest footballers of all time, has died at the age of 78. gary lineker tweetd that the man nickname der kaiser, who won a world cup for west germany in 197a as a player and as manager in 1990, was "the most beautiful of footballers who won it all with grace and charm." in 1966, playing against england in the final, he marked bobby charlton — two greats together.

i'm joined from los angeles by werner roth, who was captain at new york cosmos when franz beckenbauerjoined the team, and became his roommate. thank you forjoining us, werner roth. you met in new york and played together for the cosmos but when were you first aware as a child franz beckenbauer? i were you first aware as a child franz beckenbauer?— were you first aware as a child franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of franz beckenbauer _ franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of franz beckenbauer since - franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of franz beckenbauer since age i franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of franz beckenbauer since age 16. l franz beckenbauer? i was a fan of l franz beckenbauer since age 16. we are to get a magazine in new york and i was already playing football in the local amateur leagues, so he became my favourite player of the german bundesliga. that became my favourite player of the german bundesliga.— became my favourite player of the german bundesliga. at that stage, ou had no german bundesliga. at that stage, you had no idea — german bundesliga. at that stage, you had no idea you _ german bundesliga. at that stage, you had no idea you would - german bundesliga. at that stage, you had no idea you would be i you had no idea you would be captaining new york cosmos and he would arrive to play. ikla captaining new york cosmos and he would arrive to play.— would arrive to play. no idea whatsoever _ would arrive to play. no idea whatsoever and _ would arrive to play. no idea whatsoever and you - would arrive to play. no idea whatsoever and you are i would arrive to play. no idea i whatsoever and you are talking would arrive to play. no idea - whatsoever and you are talking 1966, when germany play england in the world cup final, it was the first match that was her broadcast in the

us and i went to madison square garden to watch it on the big screen. it was the first time i ever saw him play and i was mesmerised and i was a fan ever since. hagar saw him play and i was mesmerised and i was a fan ever since.— and i was a fan ever since. how did ou aet and i was a fan ever since. how did you get along _ and i was a fan ever since. how did you get along when _ and i was a fan ever since. how did you get along when you _ and i was a fan ever since. how did you get along when you first i and i was a fan ever since. how did you get along when you first met? | and i was a fan ever since. how did i you get along when you first met? we not you get along when you first met? - got along right from the get go. he arrived atjfk airport and i was there with a contingent of new york cosmos players and executives and i spoke german. his english was quite good but we tended to speak in german. we hit it off quite well from the very beginning. band german. we hit it off quite well from the very beginning. and you said in the _ from the very beginning. and you said in the past _ from the very beginning. and you said in the past had _ from the very beginning. and you said in the past had very - said in the past had very germanic traits about timekeeping, for example. traits about timekeeping, for exam-le. , traits about timekeeping, for examle. , .,, example. exactly. he was the most aunctual example. exactly. he was the most punctual man _ example. exactly. he was the most punctual man i've _ example. exactly. he was the most punctual man i've ever _ example. exactly. he was the most punctual man i've ever met. -

example. exactly. he was the most punctual man i've ever met. the i punctual man i've ever met. the first training, i was living in new york city and he